I just don't want to be jobless.

January 11, 2010 10:28 PM

Does it really matter what university I graduate from?

So, apparently the job market is predicted to be terrible in the next decade, which is just when I'm going to be looking for my first real job. So getting a leg up on the competition is important.

I am a sophomore in college and the most credits that will transfer are 60 and I'm approaching that so I have to make a decision soon. Plus, application deadlines.

I go to a commuter campus of the University of Michigan (so it's called University of Michigan-City Where the School Is; there are only two but I want to keep some level of anonymity). I'm thinking about transferring to University of Michigan, the real one.

Basically, I want to know if this is worth the extra commute time, the extra money, the hassle of transferring schools, the wasted credits that don't transfer/transfer as something I don't need and can't use at all (possible since I'm probably dual degreeing and have to budget my credits wisely). I actually think the quality of education at my school is superior to the University of Michigan (Tons of their classes appear to be taught by TAs, while all of mine are taught by lecturers or professors.. I don't know what that really means regarding quality of education, but it sounds better. Also my class sizes are much smaller.) I think the people are less snooty and uppity. I'm content at my school.

So really I don't want to transfer, but if it would put a lot of extra oompf in my future resume, then I guess I should. The end justifies the means to me.

The commuter colleges (or at least mine) however have less prestige and are considered not very difficult. They are definitely much easier to get into than normal University of Michigan. However I don't know if this worse reputation is just a thing among the students (it was well-known in high school too) or if employers know about this, or even care.

I mean, it's quite obvious to me that a degree from University of Michigan is worth more to an employer than a degree from one of its commuter schools. However, I want to know exactly how much more its worth. Where does my school fall on the prestige totem pole, or does it absorb all the prestige from having University of Michigan in its name and basically have the same level of prestige?

Or does whoever will consider hiring me not actually care? I know things like internships count for more than where you graduate, but I want to know how much better it will be for me to graduate from University of Michigan versus University of Michigan-Flint or University of Michigan-Dearborn and if it's worth the extra effort, money, time, hassle, unhappiness, etc. Basically, if it's just a marginal difference, then I don't think I will transfer, but if it's a vast huge difference then it will be better if I do transfer.

Also, I might go to grad school, which I've heard makes it not even matter at all what I got my undergrad degree in or what school I graduate from for undergrad. Then all that would matter would be my graduate degree. But, as I am only a sophomore, I don't know if I want to or need to do that yet. It's just a possibility.

posted by tweedle to Education (33 answers total)

The answer really depends on what you want to do post-graduation.

The University of Michigan (in Ann Arbor) is obviously well known and has a large network of alumni in most major industries.

But if you want to go into a field that is not a major industry it may not matter much.

The bottom line is that the name of the university or college you go to can open doors for you. But, as always, what you know is often much less important than who you know.

Network, meet people, engage with the world at large, etc. Don't rely on the name or reputation of your school alone to get you a job. Not even a Harvard grad can do that.
posted by dfriedman at 10:31 PM on January 11, 2010

It depends on what you are majoring in.
posted by fshgrl at 10:36 PM on January 11, 2010

Response by poster: I'm not quite sure what I want to do. I'm thinking something involving psychological research, but I don't want to be a professor or anything. I'm considering marketing research.
posted by tweedle at 10:38 PM on January 11, 2010

Response by poster: I'm getting one degree in psychology and am thinking about dualing with marketing.
posted by tweedle at 10:42 PM on January 11, 2010

Basically, if it's just a marginal difference, then I don't think I will transfer, but if it's a vast huge difference then it will be better if I do transfer.

I think that it is more than a marginal difference, but slightly less than a vast huge difference.

I might go to grad school

Don't count on that; a good lesson in life is to take the opportunities as they come, because you don't know how the future will unfold. Take the opportunities that will open doors for you.

Don't rely on the name or reputation of your school alone to get you a job. Not even a Harvard grad can do that.

100% excellent advice.

Note that UMich (the "real" one) is a nationally recognized campus, and a pretty big deal outside of Michigan too. So, if you think you might move out of Michigan, keep that in consideration. I imagine it's similar to the difference between graduating from UC Riverside (a great school few have really heard of) vs. UCLA.

I hope your choice, however, is not solely gauged on where your imaginary future employer thinks you should go. Go to the college that will challenge you, the one that will give you a better education, the one where you can grow the most. I guarantee that if you graduate a better, smarter, more confident person, that will shine more in an interview than a particular degree.

That said, with my 20/20 hindsight, not that I was in your exact situation, but I totally would have transferred.
posted by jabberjaw at 10:47 PM on January 11, 2010

The major benefit of going to a better school is the people you'll meet. On one hand, having a higher average caliber of students will mean that the classes can be held on a more serious level, conversations will be more intellectually inspiring and you will come out of the university more capable of good work. On the other hand, the connections you establish at a more well known school will serve you much better in your later career as well. I know very little about the quality of education at the institutions you're considering but really, the level of intellectual interest and ability of the people you're surrounded with should be the key factor. Your peers determine the level at which classes are taught, motivate you, inspire you, etc.

It's true that once you get your graduate degree, your undergrad no longer matters. However, it may matter for getting in. That depends on your field and whether you're looking for a Masters or a PhD. If you're considering a PhD in the hard sciences, engineering, etc you will need demonstrated research ability and recommendations from known faculty, which is much, much easier at Ann Arbor. I don't have the knowledge to say anything about the humanities or MS programs.

I believed in the 'all decent schools pretty much teach the same thing, why should I pay more at a brand name school' mantra and so, I went to a very respectable but not elite undergrad institution. I was very lucky in that due to a very fortunate circumstance, I managed to surround myself by a group of outstanding peers. Even still, now that I am doing a PhD at a top university, I clearly see what I missed out on (though I don't have regrets; my particular circumstances made my path a good choice). But had I not fallen in with my particular group of peers, I suspect that my education would have been much inferior to one received at a top school.

Disclaimer: I have not taken undergrad classes at grad school, and my experience is from the TA side.
posted by bsdfish at 10:52 PM on January 11, 2010 [1 favorite]

I didn't go to college, but someone I respect told me that what you learn is not as important as the contacts you make. It makes sense to me.
posted by snowjoe at 10:54 PM on January 11, 2010

I was beat out for a legal assistant job because the other person went to a school with better name recognition/reputation in that region, even though I had more experience. We didn't even interview for the job, and I was told that the college thing was specifically why the other candidate was chosen. Granted, their school wasn't actually better, it just was better known in that region, because I went to college in the southwest and the job and the other college were both in the northeast.
The moral of the story is that name recognition can be very important, so where you want to work/go to grad school may make a difference. Legal assistant jobs are not really based on skills you learn in college so much as ones you learn on the job, so even the fields you might think are exempt from the college name-game may not be in practice.
posted by ishotjr at 10:57 PM on January 11, 2010

It's a cost-benefit analysis. No school at $$$ per year, is going to be worth it if you're going into an area where your pay won't be commensurate with your debt.

However, "real" school vs commuter school? Choose the real one. You may not get a higher level of instruction (commuter colleges can have excellent teachers) but you will get:

a) better infrastructure (libraries, social infrastructure like alumni assocs),

b) connections with people who are more likely to go places and be helpful to you when you too wish to go there,

c) a name that random HR people outside of your state have heard of.

Related to (a) and (b) you'll also have more on-campus events to meet people.

If you make use of (a) and (b) and the opportunities they present, then the "real" school will be much more valuable than the commuter one. The real school is more likely to have a community, while the commuter school is more likely to have people who come in for classes and then leave.

Just my two cents.
posted by zippy at 11:04 PM on January 11, 2010

Michigan is a great school in reality and in terms of name recognition. I'd say if you can finish your degree there w/o breaking your bank account too badly you should do it. And not to damn it with faint praise, but its sports program alone might open doors for you unexpectedly. People love Michigan. Right up there with Notre Dame. Even if you hate football, it doesn't hurt to pretend you went to some games.

Now if it was between a commuter college and a really pricey private university or college that would sink you 150K into the hole, my advice today would be go with the commuter college. Ten years ago I would have argued the debt was worth it for the Ivy or Second-Tier (Swarthmore, Stanford, et al) recognition, but not any longer. Actual job experience is where it's at, even if it's with unpaid internships where you'll be going into debt anyways.
posted by bardic at 12:30 AM on January 12, 2010

I would recommend transferring to Ann Arbor.

I might go to grad school, which I've heard makes it not even matter at all what I got my undergrad degree in or what school I graduate from for undergrad.

If you are interested in going to grad school, then going to a school like Ann Arbor will give you a boost. I had a fairly mediocre undergrad GPA (3.4ish) but it was from a top-ranked liberal arts college and I got into every grad program I applied for. When I was an undergrad, I considered transferring to my home state university (which was nowhere near as prestigious as Ann Arbor but had a better program in my undergrad major) and, man, am I glad I stuck with the overall-better undergrad institution.

The "atmospherics" of the university are also important. By that, I mean your fellow students, professors, etc. A school like Ann Arbor will have high-achieving students from all over the country and the world. This can be somewhat exhausting, but it will also probably push you to work harder, learn more, etc. These things will help you when you're in the job market.

I think the people are less snooty and uppity. I'm content at my school. Ann Arbor is a big school, and there are sure to be non-snooty, non-uppity people there. It sounds like you are comfortable at your current school, which is not a bad thing. But make sure you're not sacrificing an opportunity for mental and emotional growth in order to maintain your comfort level. FWIW, I later discovered that my alma mater had a local rep for being snooty and uppity, which was completely preposterous. People like to poke fun at the smart kids.

Another unfortunate thing to consider: if you are planning to stay in your geographic area, then the commuter school might be good enough to not make the extra cost of Ann Arbor worth it. But man, with the economic situation in Michigan, it's probably not the best idea to cut off the option to move elsewhere. Ann Arbor is nationally known as a great school, and seems to have an extensive alumni network.
posted by lunasol at 12:41 AM on January 12, 2010

I work in, amongst other things, market research in the UK.

Yes, it does matter. It's not going to make a bad candidate into a good one, but it can easily determine whether or not someone gets to the first round of interviews.

Put simply, the interview process aims to tease out (in order of importance): integrity, motivation, intelligence, skills and experience.

The interview and the resume will look at experience, but for fresh grads lack of experience is generally a given. The "soft" part of the interview will try and get to grips with integrity and motivation. A technical-based assessment will try and deal with skills and (to some degree) experience and give a strong indicator of relevant intelligence. A psychometric or IQ test will try and, obviously, nail down intelligence to a score.

But the first gauge of intelligence is grades and university. For fresh grads, consistent performance right the way through education is a good indicator of motivation. Students who have pushed themselves right the way through are likely to want to keep pushing themselves in their first job.

In summary: dependent on lots of factors it may be what gets you through the door in the first place and it may be used as a proxy for desirable qualities.

With time (typically 2-4 years in my experience), your university will begin to matter much less and your work experience to date will matter more.
posted by MuffinMan at 1:27 AM on January 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

The major benefit of going to a better school is the people you'll meet. On one hand, having a higher average caliber of students will mean that the classes can be held on a more serious level, conversations will be more intellectually inspiring and you will come out of the university more capable of good work.

Having taught at a "better" school than where I completed my undergrad, I categorically disagree; there was no appreciable difference between students.

I think that smaller class sizes and having actual, you know, professors, as professors are really valid reasons to stay where you are. I went to a commuter school that's fairly unknown outside my geographic area. I did very well in my classes, distinguished myself with my professors, and have had no problems getting a job either in or out of that geographic area. And I got into a top twenty graduate school in my field. Excellent relationships with your professors, which small class sizes can help you forge, are paramount for recommendations for both graduate school and the workforce. Having TAd at a big, competitive state school, I can also say that I would have hated my student experience at an undergrad like this; the students that I TAd for were really getting short shrifted with many of their graduate-student teachers, and frequently complained to me about the difficulty of getting graduate school recommendations, because of large class size.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 5:09 AM on January 12, 2010

Yes, it matters. How much it matters is going to vary from situation to situation, but it does matter. I got passed over for the most "desirable" jobs in law school, and this was due in part to the fact that my undergrad college--a tiny school no one who makes hiring decisions has ever heard of--gives off a "This guy doesn't really want New York" vibe. They weren't entirely wrong, but I saw people with far worse law school records in my class get "better" jobs than I did, only they went to Stanford and USC.

Part of the question you need to ask is whether you're going to actually need that extra edge that elite name recognition will bring you. If you aren't competing for jobs that pull from the national market, i.e. the very top of a field, having gone to a big-name school may not help much. It may actually hurt you, i.e. Jim-Bob's Bank in Podunkville, NE has always hired from City College because the president and half the VPs went there, but Goldman Sachs won't even look at your resume unless you went to an Ivy.
posted by valkyryn at 6:07 AM on January 12, 2010

On the prestige totem pole, UM-Dearborn and UM-Flint are a rung above community colleges, but not a big one, vastly below Ann Arbor or Michigan State, and probably well below Western. On the prestige totem pole, Ann Arbor competes with two or three other universities for, reputationally, the best public university in the US. The reputational gap between UM-D and UM-F versus Ann Arbor is not a whole lot smaller than the gap between UM-D and UM-F and Harvard.

If you're planning to stay in Dearborn or Flint for your first job / first few jobs, then a degree from the local state U that lots of other people in the area went to will probably be okay. But even then, getting a degree from UM-D or UM-F is a weak to moderate signal that you weren't smart enough, ambitious enough, or otherwise "good" enough to get into Ann Arbor and could hurt you come application time.

Or, if you'd rather, UM-D and UM-F have good reputations that probably extend to... Dearborn, Flint, and some surrounding communities. UM-AA has a good reputation that extends at least through the US and, among educated classes, more or less globally.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:54 AM on January 12, 2010 [2 favorites]

If you can swing it, go to Ann Arbor. ESPECIALLY if you are even considering any type of grad school (professional or otherwise).
posted by jckll at 7:08 AM on January 12, 2010

Look very closely at the ancillary benefits offered by each school. In my field, internships were required for graduation. At my school, the process was, "Go get an internship, come back and tell us how it went. You're on your own. Good luck."

At my friend's school, the faculty were deeply involved in the process, the placements were more prestigious and useful, and even some of the costs were defrayed.

You wouldn't have understood this through a cursory glance at the program -- you really needed to ask around.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:10 AM on January 12, 2010

I agree with PhoBWanKenobi. I went to an undergrad that was well known for math and computer science, but completely unknown for my discipline (anthropology). There were 5 professors in my department, but I knew them all, personally. I got great letters of recommendation, not to mention a lot of mentoring and guidance, well after I graduated. I've ended up in the top anthropology department in my country for my PhD, at a school consistently ranked in the top 20 world-wide. The name of my undergrad school didn't help me get in, but the experience and knowledge they gave me did. Over a third of my graduating class went on to graduate school, many at prestigious programs, many with external funding.

My feeling from reading other people's experiences here is that the situations are so varied it's going to be hard to know what would have helped except in retrospect. Given that, I think you should stay (your reasons for staying are excellent), and seek out other ways to distinguish yourself. It's never too early to start telling your profs what you're interested in doing and asking if a) they have research projects you could RA for; b) they know of internships you could apply for; or c) if they have any general advice/people you should call. Go to your school's employment centre and ask for advice about how to get relevant experience. Vigilantly search for and apply to scholarships (this really helps if you decide to go to grad school, and could potentially be spun into a useful skill for a job someday).
posted by carmen at 7:13 AM on January 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Wow. I had mentally began composing a post where I was going to tell you to stay until I read ROU_Xenophobe's reply with the names of the two possible schools. I had such a strong "is that a community college" response that I would strongly encourage you to go to Ann Arbor. That's from a guy who's in Minnesota and married to a girl from Michigan.

I'm actually a little uncomfortable with my own reaction, but I have a hard time imagining that you wouldn't come across that same response when people are doing that first pass through a huge pile of resumes.
posted by advicepig at 7:15 AM on January 12, 2010

Something you might not have considered: it sounds like, in terms of student experience, Ann Arbor would be absolutely the wrong choice for you. That's fine and perfectly valid. Have you considered transferring to schools outside of your state with smaller student populations, either public or private? I really genuinely think that if you enjoy small class sizes and personalized attention, then choosing to go to a large state school would be a mistake, but that's not to say that you can't transfer to a school that does offer you what you need.

But again, what's really important at any school is hard work, a competitive GPA, and forming close, personal relationships with professors. I found that this was especially true when I was a big fish in a small pond, so to speak. Professors are beyond happy to encourage driven, excellent students through advice, mentorship, and recommendations.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:31 AM on January 12, 2010

The degree-granting institution makes a difference. The other thing that makes a difference is that wherever you go to school, you meet people you may be in touch with, personally and professionally, for life. Having a strong personal and professional network is a huge benefit in job-hunting. Univ. Michigan may have a professional organization for alumni in your profession. I went to a wonderful, tiny college, and sometimes with I had gone to a larger school. The local University may give you great local contacts, so if you intend to stay in the area, the impact is reduced. It makes a difference to grad school. Go visit a grad school or 2, and ask them about their requirements.
posted by theora55 at 7:49 AM on January 12, 2010

tweedle, it sounds like you have an opportunity to get the best of both worlds, here: You have already saved lots of money by attending your local commuter campus for a couple of years. You have taken your introductory classes in a small, more intimate environment. Transferring to the flagship campus will give you the chance to take your more advanced, upper-level classes, which will by their nature be smaller than your introductory ones would have been at Ann Arbor. Plus, when you graduate, your diploma will indicate that you attended the flagship campus, and the fact that you transferred there midway through won't have mattered.

It will be a big help if you already know people at Ann Arbor, though, to make the transition easier and place you in a position where you can take advantage of the social, academic, and extra-curricular opportunities available.

I'm in no position to tell people about what the value of a big name diploma is. However, I do know very smart, very successful people who went to small schools that were not very well-known outside their immediate region. They said that having had a diploma from a nationally known school with a good reputation would have been a big help for them. I'd do it.
posted by deanc at 7:54 AM on January 12, 2010

Joining the "transfer" chorus. Also, this has been said, but it bears repeating: transferring will have a positive affect on your job prospects; *how* positive depends on a huge number of factors.
posted by craven_morhead at 8:14 AM on January 12, 2010

No, it really doesn't matter. I went to two so-called prestigious universities and my paycheck sucks. My field is something people want to get into until they grow up and mature.

Naturally, your school does matter when it comes to law or finance fields. But, if you're in CS or something where you have to have actual skills vs. theoretical skills (in so much a field where know how is more important than having a degree in whatever and being trained on the job), it doesn't really matter at all where you went.

Save your money, get some in-demand skills.
posted by anniecat at 9:29 AM on January 12, 2010

As someone who went to top-ranked schools and has worked with lots of people from those schools and elsewhere, I can tell you that the difference in name-branding on your resume means much more than it should, but even so makes less of a difference that you might fear.

In the long run, here's the hierarchy for factors of success:

(1) personal merit qualities - intelligence, ambition, hard work

(2) luck!

(3) unearned personal qualities - charm, looks, helpful friends, helpful parents

(4) pedigree / alma mater branding

Sometimes because of the correlation / causation problem, I'm not even convinced #4 makes sense. Harvard doesn't make people smart or hard-working, it's the fact that smart and hard-working people compete to go there that makes it Harvard.

All else being equal, of course, go for the highest-ranked school; beyond, that if it can actually teach you something better than it elevates itself to category #1 (adding to your intelligence) and becomes essential. However, if it is going to distract you or cost you more than you want to pay or deprive you of a good social network, etc., than you can defensibly take a pass on it.
posted by MattD at 9:35 AM on January 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Yes, you need to transfer. I live in New York City, where there's a lot of emphasis placed on one's alma mater (especially in journalism and publishing), so maybe this has been beaten into my head, but my experience as a graduate from a great public school still didn't feel like enough when competing with Ivy-fetishists. No one seems to care what GPA you made or what classes you took--they care about the prestige of the university name emblazoned on your sweatshirt.

The college at the top of your resume is often and unfairly what will make you stand out to recruiters and and HR departments, especially when the applicant pool is huge and the committee is lazy. It's not okay, and I made an effort to resist this petty culling system when I was on the other side of the desk, but even the most thorough and fair-minded interviewers will have their interest piqued by a well-known and respected school.

UM-Flint and UM-Detroit might be fine schools, and there are plenty of reasons to go to a lower-profile institution that are reasonable and perfectly sane. However, if you're worried about graduating college in a recession, transfer to UM-Ann Arbor.
posted by zoomorphic at 10:02 AM on January 12, 2010

UM alum, and possibly biased, but I actually took a summer class at Dearborn to fulfill some minor requirements. The Dearborn class was far easier in terms of the depth of knowledge expected and the motivation level of my classmates. I learned far more from my Ann Arbor B than my Dearborn A.

Just a suggestion - that may have had something to do with it being a summer class.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 4:38 PM on January 12, 2010

Grad student at Ann arbor here. Look, nothing is guaranteed. Coming here is a risk. You'll be outside your comfort zone. By the time you have adjusted you'll be of here. But. This place is broadening. It's electric. It's diverse and challenging. And the point of a flagship research university is to provide you with the most up to date material available and offer you, should you bother to look around and ask for it, research opportunities on real projects with investigators who define the field. You'll get some shitty grad student instruction, sure. But Jesus, the opportunities available.

This last bit is advice to my younger self (you may listen in): dude, jobs aren't handed down from on high. Sure it's important to have some skills to sell to other people. But a healthier way to look at is to define a region of knowledge or skill which you find interesting, and then set about becoming expert in it: be good at it. Understand it's context in the world. Then set about making new contributions to this field such that those coming behind you are dying to learn what you know. Don't set out trying to figur out what tool to be in somebody elses toolbox.

Whenever I'm trying find reasons for not doing something I don't want to do, I remind myself that I can choose easy comfort or I can choose life.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 9:06 PM on January 12, 2010 [1 favorite]

Ask your school's and UM's career centers for stats on job placement.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:50 AM on January 14, 2010

Where you went to undergrad can matter a great deal.

UNLESS you go to graduate school, at which point your second degree completely covers the first. Trust me, most of the people I meet don't even care what language my first degree was in, let alone what university, now that I have a second.

Of course, I wouldn't have gotten into graduate school if I hadn't gone to a commuter school which had good teachers.
posted by jb at 11:29 PM on January 14, 2010 [1 favorite]

(My comment is about academic graduate school. Academics only care about Masters/PhDs. I don't know the world of law, etc.)
posted by jb at 11:30 PM on January 14, 2010

The world of law is snooty about your undergrad degree, but only to the extent that it helps you get into a name-brand law school, which it is more snooty about.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:54 AM on January 15, 2010

Response by poster: Okay, you guys convinced me to transfer. I guess if I absolutely hate it I can always transfer back. Thanks for the advice!
posted by tweedle at 8:08 PM on February 23, 2010