Middle school drama or more?
October 10, 2009 5:05 PM Subscribe
How worried should I be that the broken heart of a 13 year old boy will result in violence – or, should I say, more violence?
I’m a single parent and my only child is 11. Within the first week of school she told me that a 13 year old boy had asked her to be his girlfriend - she told him no. She and I talked about it and were in full agreement that 7th grade is too young to be claiming boyfriend/girlfriend status. This boy has continued to pursue her on almost a daily basis. I encouraged her to be consistently firm but polite in turning him down.
This week another boy in the class stood up for my daughter and claimed that she was his girlfriend. According to my daughter, this was just a fib to deter the first boy. I discouraged the telling of lies (oh, what a tangled web . . .) and further explained she is not an object to be possessed. Yesterday, the first boy threatened to hurt anyone who took her away from him. At the end of the school day he ran up behind the second boy and punched him in the back of the head with a closed fist, leaving a lump.
It all sounded like typical middle school drama until I heard about the threat and the actual follow through with hitting. My daughter has expressed that she is now frightened. I don’t want to feed into the drama, but I also don’t want to ignore a potentially dangerous situation.
What do you think? Should I be worried or should I just let this blow over? Should I demand disciplinary action for the boy? Should I enroll my daughter in karate?
I’m a single parent and my only child is 11. Within the first week of school she told me that a 13 year old boy had asked her to be his girlfriend - she told him no. She and I talked about it and were in full agreement that 7th grade is too young to be claiming boyfriend/girlfriend status. This boy has continued to pursue her on almost a daily basis. I encouraged her to be consistently firm but polite in turning him down.
This week another boy in the class stood up for my daughter and claimed that she was his girlfriend. According to my daughter, this was just a fib to deter the first boy. I discouraged the telling of lies (oh, what a tangled web . . .) and further explained she is not an object to be possessed. Yesterday, the first boy threatened to hurt anyone who took her away from him. At the end of the school day he ran up behind the second boy and punched him in the back of the head with a closed fist, leaving a lump.
It all sounded like typical middle school drama until I heard about the threat and the actual follow through with hitting. My daughter has expressed that she is now frightened. I don’t want to feed into the drama, but I also don’t want to ignore a potentially dangerous situation.
What do you think? Should I be worried or should I just let this blow over? Should I demand disciplinary action for the boy? Should I enroll my daughter in karate?
On second glance-this boy is two years older than she is. I'd say something.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:16 PM on October 10, 2009
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:16 PM on October 10, 2009
The school definitely needs to be alerted to this behavior and his parents should be notified that if any further threats are made that you will involve the police. I don't think this should be taken at all lightly.
posted by greta simone at 5:18 PM on October 10, 2009 [9 favorites]
posted by greta simone at 5:18 PM on October 10, 2009 [9 favorites]
Has your daughter talked to a guidance counselor about this? If not, I would suggest to do so. Or maybe even a teacher. This in my book, would be considered harassment and should be stopped ASAP.
While I don't think you should enroll your daughter in karate, but you have already told her to turn this boy down and since he isn't stopping and this appears to be escalating, I would have your daughter talk to a teacher about this since this is harassment and it appears to be that this boy isn't going to stop anytime soon.
posted by QueenHawkeye at 5:21 PM on October 10, 2009
While I don't think you should enroll your daughter in karate, but you have already told her to turn this boy down and since he isn't stopping and this appears to be escalating, I would have your daughter talk to a teacher about this since this is harassment and it appears to be that this boy isn't going to stop anytime soon.
posted by QueenHawkeye at 5:21 PM on October 10, 2009
Your daughter is being bullied. If the school is like most schools, they have an anti-bullying policy. You need to report the boy and let the school take it from there.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 5:28 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by SuperSquirrel at 5:28 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Alert the school, alert the school, alert the school. This incident happened on school property and involved three students. The school will likely inform the boy's parents, which needs to be done. They probably won't involve your daughter at all. What happens in our district in these situations is that the administration will tell a little white lie, like "A teacher observed," or, "A teacher overheard such-and-such," in order to protect the informer.
I'd start with the school counselor/psychologist.
posted by cooker girl at 5:34 PM on October 10, 2009
I'd start with the school counselor/psychologist.
posted by cooker girl at 5:34 PM on October 10, 2009
Speak up.
It's gone on for several weeks already and is escalating. It's sounds like more than just standard middle school drama.
Her admirer sounds like a boy with social problems that he needs serious help with.
posted by SLC Mom at 5:36 PM on October 10, 2009
It's gone on for several weeks already and is escalating. It's sounds like more than just standard middle school drama.
Her admirer sounds like a boy with social problems that he needs serious help with.
posted by SLC Mom at 5:36 PM on October 10, 2009
Best answer: When I was 13 years old, I was involved in a physical fight with a boy I had a crush on that left me with a cracked rib and him needing stitches on his head. It was the only physical fight I was ever in at school, with him or with anyone else, but the incident significantly changed my life and his.
It was stupid and reckless and completely unbelievable to the people who know me now as a kind-hearted, pacifist, diplomatic person, and to the people who knew me then as a nerdy, nervous, goody-two-shoes sort of kid. I can only imagine what someone with a greater disposition towards violence and possessiveness and worse role models than I had is capable of.
In other words - no. You are not being overdramatic, or worrying too much. For every ten times that a situation like this will blow over, there's one time that it will escalate, and it's not worth the risk to your daughter, her friend, or the boy who is harassing her (who needs to learn that his behavior is not okay). 13 seems really young, but it's old enough for some very serious shit to go down. Involve a teacher and/or principal, please.
posted by danceswithanonymity at 5:41 PM on October 10, 2009 [6 favorites]
It was stupid and reckless and completely unbelievable to the people who know me now as a kind-hearted, pacifist, diplomatic person, and to the people who knew me then as a nerdy, nervous, goody-two-shoes sort of kid. I can only imagine what someone with a greater disposition towards violence and possessiveness and worse role models than I had is capable of.
In other words - no. You are not being overdramatic, or worrying too much. For every ten times that a situation like this will blow over, there's one time that it will escalate, and it's not worth the risk to your daughter, her friend, or the boy who is harassing her (who needs to learn that his behavior is not okay). 13 seems really young, but it's old enough for some very serious shit to go down. Involve a teacher and/or principal, please.
posted by danceswithanonymity at 5:41 PM on October 10, 2009 [6 favorites]
I really don't think you'd be doing anybody any favors letting this go. It's not feeding drama to report this to the proper authorities at the school (or to involve the police if it escalates); it's an entirely proper response to genuinely wrong behavior. Dickish, bullying pursuit of an unwilling potential "girlfriend"--and punching some other poor kid in the back of the head--are not anything anybody should get away with.
As for enrolling your kid in karate or some other martial art of self-defense/personal-safety-awareness-thing...yeah, do that too! Can't hurt and it might help her gain the vocabulary and skills for thinking about and responding to these sorts of issues which, sadly, may well recur throughout her life.
So yeah, another vote for No, You're Not Overreacting. And good for you for taking your daughter's concerns seriously.
posted by Neofelis at 5:52 PM on October 10, 2009
As for enrolling your kid in karate or some other martial art of self-defense/personal-safety-awareness-thing...yeah, do that too! Can't hurt and it might help her gain the vocabulary and skills for thinking about and responding to these sorts of issues which, sadly, may well recur throughout her life.
So yeah, another vote for No, You're Not Overreacting. And good for you for taking your daughter's concerns seriously.
posted by Neofelis at 5:52 PM on October 10, 2009
11-13 year olds have a lot more violence among themselves than this, or at least we sure did in my old-fashioned day. The unusual thing here, maybe, is that you know about it. It's good that your daughter talks so openly with you.
Me, I wouldn't overreact. The boys may have already settled this, in their way, and a parent intruding might actually increase the conflict. I'd keep an ear open with your daughter to make sure that there isn't any further escalation. If there is escalation, take it up with the school counselor or principal or whoever your contact should be, but do so discretely.
Because really, nothing will make a young boy more of a hallway target than for his "girlfriend's" mom to come running to protect him.
He tried to be noble; thank him by helping to protect his image here.
posted by rokusan at 5:55 PM on October 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
Me, I wouldn't overreact. The boys may have already settled this, in their way, and a parent intruding might actually increase the conflict. I'd keep an ear open with your daughter to make sure that there isn't any further escalation. If there is escalation, take it up with the school counselor or principal or whoever your contact should be, but do so discretely.
Because really, nothing will make a young boy more of a hallway target than for his "girlfriend's" mom to come running to protect him.
He tried to be noble; thank him by helping to protect his image here.
posted by rokusan at 5:55 PM on October 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
Kbar1, it isn't clear to me from your story if you were saying that it was the first boy who said he would harm anyone who tried to 'take your daughter away', who then hit the second boy, or if in fact it was the second boy who was fibbing to protect your daughter who hit the first boy.
I only ask because if it's the first boy who promised to harm anyone who 'took your daughter' and then actually did harm someone (the second boy), then this doesn't sound 'resolved' yet. It sounds like the first boy is threatening other people and then carrying through on those threats. That's not good.
In either case I think a discreet check in with the teacher/counselor is always a good idea. Close parent/teacher communication is always a good thing. After all you don't know if there are any other issues going on for the other two boys, and the teachers/counselors would.
posted by anitanita at 6:10 PM on October 10, 2009
I only ask because if it's the first boy who promised to harm anyone who 'took your daughter' and then actually did harm someone (the second boy), then this doesn't sound 'resolved' yet. It sounds like the first boy is threatening other people and then carrying through on those threats. That's not good.
In either case I think a discreet check in with the teacher/counselor is always a good idea. Close parent/teacher communication is always a good thing. After all you don't know if there are any other issues going on for the other two boys, and the teachers/counselors would.
posted by anitanita at 6:10 PM on October 10, 2009
Where are the school administrators here? I'm sure they will tell the older boy to leave her alone if you ask.
11-13 year olds have a lot more violence among themselves than this, or at least we sure did in my old-fashioned day.
I didn't see that much in my day (which would have been '91 to '93). And plus, running up to someone and punching them in the back of the head is such a lame move. I mean, usually when there were "fights" they were kind of arranged so everyone could gather around to watch. Usually a teacher would see it and break it up pretty quickly.
posted by delmoi at 6:23 PM on October 10, 2009
11-13 year olds have a lot more violence among themselves than this, or at least we sure did in my old-fashioned day.
I didn't see that much in my day (which would have been '91 to '93). And plus, running up to someone and punching them in the back of the head is such a lame move. I mean, usually when there were "fights" they were kind of arranged so everyone could gather around to watch. Usually a teacher would see it and break it up pretty quickly.
posted by delmoi at 6:23 PM on October 10, 2009
Aside from whatever you do at school, I would look around for a self-defense class (not standard martial arts class) that targets middle-school girls and teaches assertiveness, awareness and self-defense moves that are simple and work (like a palm to the nose). KidPower is a great organization that does exactly this. If they aren't in your area, check with the local Girl Scout council. (Not an individual troop but the regional council) They often run special programs that are open to any girl (I think you pay extra $10 to join scouting) and they will allow "Juliettes" (girls who are independents, not affiliated with a troop). You could also try the YWCA or the local rape crisis center or domestic violence hotline for suggestions. (Not that your daughter's situation is in either of those categories but dating violence among teens is even more common than violence between married couples.
posted by metahawk at 6:25 PM on October 10, 2009
posted by metahawk at 6:25 PM on October 10, 2009
i would recommend break the cycle as a resource for your daughter. btc is a great resource for young people in terms of dating violence and these types of issues. additionally, their safe space website is made for a young audience.
posted by anya32 at 6:30 PM on October 10, 2009
posted by anya32 at 6:30 PM on October 10, 2009
Kbar1, it isn't clear to me from your story if you were saying that it was the first boy who said he would harm anyone who tried to 'take your daughter away', who then hit the second boy, or if in fact it was the second boy who was fibbing to protect your daughter who hit the first boy.
I read it as the first boy who won't leave the girl alone punched the second boy who tried to help the girl by saying she was his girlfriend. The first boy threatened and then followed through on the threat by punching the second boy.
posted by cooker girl at 7:08 PM on October 10, 2009
I read it as the first boy who won't leave the girl alone punched the second boy who tried to help the girl by saying she was his girlfriend. The first boy threatened and then followed through on the threat by punching the second boy.
posted by cooker girl at 7:08 PM on October 10, 2009
Seconding the "let it go, but pay attention". We don't need more panicked parents calling the police, or teachers imparting post-hoc punishments for normal childhood behavior.
A punch in the head is bad news, but it's a single punch, not a gangland beating. If the aggressor had "beaten up" the boy defending your daughter, I'd be concerned; as it stands, I think rokusan has it right.
And please, don't go enrolling your daughter in a self defense course. Martial arts teach you to overcome your ego via a disciplined practice that happens to be martial; good ones do that honestly and well. Self defense courses teach you nonsense that anyone who is either trained or seriously deranged enough to assault another human being would laugh at, at best.
posted by ellF at 7:29 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
A punch in the head is bad news, but it's a single punch, not a gangland beating. If the aggressor had "beaten up" the boy defending your daughter, I'd be concerned; as it stands, I think rokusan has it right.
And please, don't go enrolling your daughter in a self defense course. Martial arts teach you to overcome your ego via a disciplined practice that happens to be martial; good ones do that honestly and well. Self defense courses teach you nonsense that anyone who is either trained or seriously deranged enough to assault another human being would laugh at, at best.
posted by ellF at 7:29 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
When I was in middle school (86-89), this stuff happened all the time. Middle school was tough.
I'm gonna take the middle ground. You're not overreacting but I think you should aim for somewhere in the middle of letting it blow over and demanding disciplinary action.
I would talk to your daughter's teacher. He or she likely knows all the kids involved, even if boy #1 is older. I would merely ask the teacher for his or her observations of the situation and dynamics. Or to watch for problems if not already aware. I'm sure your daughter is observant, articulate, and honest but the teacher might be able to give you a useful, more adult perspective on how your daughter and the boys are handling it.
Most importantly, keep your daughter talking and don't violate her trust unless you have to in order to protect her safety.
I'm all for putting kids in martial arts classes if they are interested. So if she is, go for it. But don't talk her into it "because she can feel safer and protect herself against boys." She doesn't need that kind of anxiety on top of normal middle school shit.
posted by dchrssyr at 8:16 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm gonna take the middle ground. You're not overreacting but I think you should aim for somewhere in the middle of letting it blow over and demanding disciplinary action.
I would talk to your daughter's teacher. He or she likely knows all the kids involved, even if boy #1 is older. I would merely ask the teacher for his or her observations of the situation and dynamics. Or to watch for problems if not already aware. I'm sure your daughter is observant, articulate, and honest but the teacher might be able to give you a useful, more adult perspective on how your daughter and the boys are handling it.
Most importantly, keep your daughter talking and don't violate her trust unless you have to in order to protect her safety.
I'm all for putting kids in martial arts classes if they are interested. So if she is, go for it. But don't talk her into it "because she can feel safer and protect herself against boys." She doesn't need that kind of anxiety on top of normal middle school shit.
posted by dchrssyr at 8:16 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
teachers imparting post-hoc punishments for normal childhood behavior
I don't know where you grew up, but in my world, this is not normal childhood behavior. "My day" would have been '87-'90 (for middle school). And this kind of possessive, aggressive behavior would definitely not have been considered normal.
This is a kid with the demonstrated inclination to physical violence over an imaginary romantic relationship. Involve the school. This boy needs to receive the clear message that this behavior is not acceptable (and probably a lot of social support to make up for the issues in his home life). If you feel like you aren't getting results, involve the police.
Your first priority here has to be the safety of your daughter. Don't be afraid to go overboard.
posted by jeoc at 8:24 PM on October 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
I don't know where you grew up, but in my world, this is not normal childhood behavior. "My day" would have been '87-'90 (for middle school). And this kind of possessive, aggressive behavior would definitely not have been considered normal.
This is a kid with the demonstrated inclination to physical violence over an imaginary romantic relationship. Involve the school. This boy needs to receive the clear message that this behavior is not acceptable (and probably a lot of social support to make up for the issues in his home life). If you feel like you aren't getting results, involve the police.
Your first priority here has to be the safety of your daughter. Don't be afraid to go overboard.
posted by jeoc at 8:24 PM on October 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
Report him, or encourage your daughter to do it.
Near daily 'pursuits' from some dingus who can't take ~30 "No"s as a hint, and who has now added violence into the mix, is not a healthy school environment. Doubly so if what's frightening her is a feeling that the violence may get aimed at her for rejecting the kid.
As for martial arts... sure, if she's into it. Do your research before committing though, as there are shitty operations out there.
posted by CKmtl at 8:44 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Near daily 'pursuits' from some dingus who can't take ~30 "No"s as a hint, and who has now added violence into the mix, is not a healthy school environment. Doubly so if what's frightening her is a feeling that the violence may get aimed at her for rejecting the kid.
As for martial arts... sure, if she's into it. Do your research before committing though, as there are shitty operations out there.
posted by CKmtl at 8:44 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
Jeoc: I grew up in upper-middle-class suburbia, in MA, roughly the same time period as you. It wasn't a daily occurrence, but even speaking as a nerdy kid, I saw my share of fights. I threw a few punches, got hit a few times. It wasn't a monthly thing, but it happened and wasn't that big a deal in the long run. There are violent kids out there, but this doesn't sound unusual to me. Regrettable, but not unusual.
I'd be curious what the punched-kid's parents are doing, as that's where I see the reaction being needed. Unless the world has changed more than I suspect, having a third party report the assault will lead to punishments rather than therapy, and the aggressive boy will learn only to further distrust authority.
posted by ellF at 9:08 PM on October 10, 2009
I'd be curious what the punched-kid's parents are doing, as that's where I see the reaction being needed. Unless the world has changed more than I suspect, having a third party report the assault will lead to punishments rather than therapy, and the aggressive boy will learn only to further distrust authority.
posted by ellF at 9:08 PM on October 10, 2009
The boy is older than your daughter, demonstrably fixated on her, aggressive, cannot take no for an answer, and has now escalated this to violence.
Damn right I'd call the school.
posted by mazienh at 9:12 PM on October 10, 2009 [12 favorites]
Damn right I'd call the school.
posted by mazienh at 9:12 PM on October 10, 2009 [12 favorites]
This kind of thing happened almost daily where I went to school. There was even a designated place for people to meet and beat the shit out of each other (off school grounds). Pretty sure I got a split lip or two myself. This was just a run-of-the-mill middle-class-area school.
I guess you should say something though, since your daughter was concerned enough to tell you. I'm not sure the fighting between the two boys is really your business, but you do have the right to get them off your daughter's back.
> If the school is like most schools, they have an anti-bullying policy.
Yeah, good luck with that. See if you can get in contact with the other parents.
posted by cj_ at 9:13 PM on October 10, 2009
I guess you should say something though, since your daughter was concerned enough to tell you. I'm not sure the fighting between the two boys is really your business, but you do have the right to get them off your daughter's back.
> If the school is like most schools, they have an anti-bullying policy.
Yeah, good luck with that. See if you can get in contact with the other parents.
posted by cj_ at 9:13 PM on October 10, 2009
Response by poster: Cooker girl is correct in stating that it was the “bully” (first boy) who punched the friend (second boy).
Based on the feedback received here and my own intuition (delayed as it might be) I’m coming to the realization that my daughter was feeling bullied by this boy. I’m afraid that I may have gotten caught up in the thrill of a boy’s crush on my daughter and missed the signs that she was feeling threatened. When I asked why her friend (second boy) had felt the need to tell a lie, she told me that he was trying to help her because first boy wouldn’t leave her alone. So while I appreciate the comments that praised my daughter’s open communication with me, I’m afraid I wasn’t listening well enough! Ugh!
School is out of session for fall break, but I am sending an email to the Principal. I will follow that up with a request for the counselor to meet with my daughter – but I suspect that there will also be meetings with the two boys and that their parents will be notified.
I can’t say that we’ll move forward with martial arts or any kind of physical defense training just now. I feel like, given the current situation, it will send the message that she needs to protect herself from boys (the enemy). Maybe some other time I’ll recommend martial arts. I’m open to other suggestions that may help me to boost my daughter’s feeling of self confidence.
posted by kbar1 at 9:30 PM on October 10, 2009
Based on the feedback received here and my own intuition (delayed as it might be) I’m coming to the realization that my daughter was feeling bullied by this boy. I’m afraid that I may have gotten caught up in the thrill of a boy’s crush on my daughter and missed the signs that she was feeling threatened. When I asked why her friend (second boy) had felt the need to tell a lie, she told me that he was trying to help her because first boy wouldn’t leave her alone. So while I appreciate the comments that praised my daughter’s open communication with me, I’m afraid I wasn’t listening well enough! Ugh!
School is out of session for fall break, but I am sending an email to the Principal. I will follow that up with a request for the counselor to meet with my daughter – but I suspect that there will also be meetings with the two boys and that their parents will be notified.
I can’t say that we’ll move forward with martial arts or any kind of physical defense training just now. I feel like, given the current situation, it will send the message that she needs to protect herself from boys (the enemy). Maybe some other time I’ll recommend martial arts. I’m open to other suggestions that may help me to boost my daughter’s feeling of self confidence.
posted by kbar1 at 9:30 PM on October 10, 2009
I don't think that self-defense training would send the message that she needs to protect herself from boys. I think it would send the message that she can, and should, protect herself from bullies who won't leave her alone.
posted by arianell at 10:35 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by arianell at 10:35 PM on October 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
If this was an adult woman, who had rejected a guy a few years older, and the situation had escalated to violence, I imagine there would be a lot less "let it goes" and more "call the cops".
Your daughter is being stalked, and at the very least needs to know that this is not normal behaviour and she does not need to put up with the unwanted attention of a young man, just because he wants it enough to be persistent. The first boy needs to learn that "no" means no. Really, by bringing this up sensitively with your school's counsellor, you'll be helping two kids.
posted by Jilder at 11:58 PM on October 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
Your daughter is being stalked, and at the very least needs to know that this is not normal behaviour and she does not need to put up with the unwanted attention of a young man, just because he wants it enough to be persistent. The first boy needs to learn that "no" means no. Really, by bringing this up sensitively with your school's counsellor, you'll be helping two kids.
posted by Jilder at 11:58 PM on October 10, 2009 [3 favorites]
I know I'm coming a bit late to this, but I just wanted to share my little anecdote. I went through something similar. I was 13 or 14 and the 'new girl'. On the first or second day at the new school, I got asked by a friend of this boy whether I wanted to be his girlfriend. I said no, I didn't know the guy and wasn't really interested. And thus began six months of hell. This guy and his buddies did really odd things (like trying to staple my hair--who does that?) and mocked me daily.
It ended after I was blockaded on a bridge over the summer when riding my bike. These friends of the original guy were trying to bully me, saying I couldn't go across this bridge and had to go around and that they were going to throw my books in the river. I stood my ground, and they eventually left, but it was terrifying. I refused to go back to the school (the admins and teachers were aware of that situation and bullying was apparently a really big problem there, but they really didn't do anything). So, my mom homeschooled me for a bit and then we moved so I could go to a better school.
Now, I don't think homeschooling or moving to a different school is necessarily the right option. I mostly just wanted to let your daughter know that she's not alone. I've been there and it is survivable. But it does suck and I feel for her.
Those few months murdered my self-confidence for a while, so please do make sure that your daughter is getting plenty of positive assurance. Also, it can feel like so much is out of her control, so do let her decide what course of action she wants to take. I'm really grateful that my parents listened to me and didn't force me to stay in that situation. On the plus side, I changed a lot for the better after I got in a better environment and am glad, in a way, that I went through that.
posted by brambory at 1:08 AM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
It ended after I was blockaded on a bridge over the summer when riding my bike. These friends of the original guy were trying to bully me, saying I couldn't go across this bridge and had to go around and that they were going to throw my books in the river. I stood my ground, and they eventually left, but it was terrifying. I refused to go back to the school (the admins and teachers were aware of that situation and bullying was apparently a really big problem there, but they really didn't do anything). So, my mom homeschooled me for a bit and then we moved so I could go to a better school.
Now, I don't think homeschooling or moving to a different school is necessarily the right option. I mostly just wanted to let your daughter know that she's not alone. I've been there and it is survivable. But it does suck and I feel for her.
Those few months murdered my self-confidence for a while, so please do make sure that your daughter is getting plenty of positive assurance. Also, it can feel like so much is out of her control, so do let her decide what course of action she wants to take. I'm really grateful that my parents listened to me and didn't force me to stay in that situation. On the plus side, I changed a lot for the better after I got in a better environment and am glad, in a way, that I went through that.
posted by brambory at 1:08 AM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
If this was an adult woman, who had rejected a guy a few years older, and the situation had escalated to violence, I imagine there would be a lot less "let it goes"
Yeah, and if as a grown man I stole your pencil, spit on you in public, and called you poopy-pants, it would be a much bigger deal than your average second grade classroom, too. What is the point?
Serious overreactions abound. Kids will hit each other sometimes, and pre-teen hormone-powered years are full of far more 'passionate' events than these. Pretending they won't is just parenting with blinders on.
I fear that this mother is about to embarrass the protecting boy so deeply that he'll not only get a lot more abuse as a result, he'll learn to never dare stand up for anyone again.
posted by rokusan at 4:58 AM on October 11, 2009
Yeah, and if as a grown man I stole your pencil, spit on you in public, and called you poopy-pants, it would be a much bigger deal than your average second grade classroom, too. What is the point?
Serious overreactions abound. Kids will hit each other sometimes, and pre-teen hormone-powered years are full of far more 'passionate' events than these. Pretending they won't is just parenting with blinders on.
I fear that this mother is about to embarrass the protecting boy so deeply that he'll not only get a lot more abuse as a result, he'll learn to never dare stand up for anyone again.
posted by rokusan at 4:58 AM on October 11, 2009
I would like to add a more recent experience than the ones presented in this thread thus far: I was in middle school, specifically eighth grade, when the Columbine shootings occurred. With the rash of media-frenzy involving various school shootings, our school's administration (and every other school I had friends in) got a hell of a lot more serious about threats and violence. There was a lot of fear, accusations and serious punishments doled out to anyone who stepped out of line.
This boy needs a good talking to, but perhaps the school's councilor (if they still can afford one) should be the one to handle this first. That is what they are there for. If this child thinks that violence is the answer to his rejection, that needs to be documented and looked into for the future well-being of his peers. However, the point I am trying to make here is that escalation in these situations does occur frequently in the school systems today, probably well beyond the point that you will be comfortable with (i.e. cops and juvenile records). Schools are wary of parents suing, kids going ballistic and negative media attention.
Go in to these inevitable meetings with a level head and a clear goal (e.g. "I want Bully to see the guidance counselor once a week" or "Please get my daughter or Bully into a different home room"). This would be instead of hysterical-parent-mode (which you certainly don't sound like) or just wanting Bully "punished". I'm not saying you'll get your goal, but it gives the school admins some assessment of your levels of fear on behalf of your child and/or anger directed at her bully. Good luck. Sounds like you have a really good attitude towards your child's needs.
posted by nursegracer at 5:45 AM on October 11, 2009
This boy needs a good talking to, but perhaps the school's councilor (if they still can afford one) should be the one to handle this first. That is what they are there for. If this child thinks that violence is the answer to his rejection, that needs to be documented and looked into for the future well-being of his peers. However, the point I am trying to make here is that escalation in these situations does occur frequently in the school systems today, probably well beyond the point that you will be comfortable with (i.e. cops and juvenile records). Schools are wary of parents suing, kids going ballistic and negative media attention.
Go in to these inevitable meetings with a level head and a clear goal (e.g. "I want Bully to see the guidance counselor once a week" or "Please get my daughter or Bully into a different home room"). This would be instead of hysterical-parent-mode (which you certainly don't sound like) or just wanting Bully "punished". I'm not saying you'll get your goal, but it gives the school admins some assessment of your levels of fear on behalf of your child and/or anger directed at her bully. Good luck. Sounds like you have a really good attitude towards your child's needs.
posted by nursegracer at 5:45 AM on October 11, 2009
Coming from the perspective of a special education middle school teacher, I want to pass along something that happened recently in my school:
A 7th grade boy (who seemed completely well-grounded) had decided that a particular was his girlfriend, despite her making very clear that she wasn't. But he liked her and decided that she was his girlfriend and that was that. Days passed, the girls parents expressed their concerns that this boy was frightening their daughter, administration told the parents they'd keep an eye on it.
But the truth is that the school's a gigantic place and a lot of nonsense happens in the hallways when there are hundreds of teenagers generally goofing around and we just can't see everything. A few weeks passed and this boy was told to keep away from the girl, but on the last day of school, he walked up behind a boy who had been chatting with the girl, grabbed and rock and proceeded to punch him in the head, causing broken teeth and a broken nose (and other obvious psychic injuries).
So what am I saying? TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY. Make a plan with your daughter's teachers: she'll have "buddies" in the hallways (making the offender less likely to approach her in a group), in the cafeteria, etc. At home, completely curtail her online activities (if she has any): no online chatting, no Facebook, etc.).
Here's the truth: most kids are well-grounded and cool and fine, but some aren't. And sometimes their little hormones and mental processes go a little nuts and they make incredibly stupid choices. And it can be bad news when your own kid gets pulled into something like this.
The school needs to keep her safe.
posted by dzaz at 6:01 AM on October 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
A 7th grade boy (who seemed completely well-grounded) had decided that a particular was his girlfriend, despite her making very clear that she wasn't. But he liked her and decided that she was his girlfriend and that was that. Days passed, the girls parents expressed their concerns that this boy was frightening their daughter, administration told the parents they'd keep an eye on it.
But the truth is that the school's a gigantic place and a lot of nonsense happens in the hallways when there are hundreds of teenagers generally goofing around and we just can't see everything. A few weeks passed and this boy was told to keep away from the girl, but on the last day of school, he walked up behind a boy who had been chatting with the girl, grabbed and rock and proceeded to punch him in the head, causing broken teeth and a broken nose (and other obvious psychic injuries).
So what am I saying? TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY. Make a plan with your daughter's teachers: she'll have "buddies" in the hallways (making the offender less likely to approach her in a group), in the cafeteria, etc. At home, completely curtail her online activities (if she has any): no online chatting, no Facebook, etc.).
Here's the truth: most kids are well-grounded and cool and fine, but some aren't. And sometimes their little hormones and mental processes go a little nuts and they make incredibly stupid choices. And it can be bad news when your own kid gets pulled into something like this.
The school needs to keep her safe.
posted by dzaz at 6:01 AM on October 11, 2009 [3 favorites]
> If this was an adult woman, who had rejected a guy a few years older, and the situation had escalated to violence, I imagine there would be a lot less "let it goes" and more "call the cops".
Well, that's a bit disingenuous. If either boy had escalated it to violence against the girl, then yes, absolutely. Fortunately that's not what happened. I'm not going to sit here and try to argue hurf-durf-boys-will-be-boys -- it's obviously the wrong way to address conflict. Regardless, it's common behavior in both adolescent and adult men. I mean, have you even been to a bar? It's not clear to me it all that the two boys issue with each other is any of OP's business to resolve, I guess. I'm willing to bet there's more behind their animosity for each other than the girl.
Standard disclaimer: That's just my reading of the situation from limited information presented here, and I think people (myself included) overlay their own experiences to fill in the substantial gaps. If your daughter actually feels threatened, do what you must. That's just not how it seems to me, and calling the cops sounds like a pretty ridiculous and hysterical way of handling this. Going to the school might be better, but can be pretty damaging to everyone involved.
posted by cj_ at 6:16 AM on October 11, 2009
Well, that's a bit disingenuous. If either boy had escalated it to violence against the girl, then yes, absolutely. Fortunately that's not what happened. I'm not going to sit here and try to argue hurf-durf-boys-will-be-boys -- it's obviously the wrong way to address conflict. Regardless, it's common behavior in both adolescent and adult men. I mean, have you even been to a bar? It's not clear to me it all that the two boys issue with each other is any of OP's business to resolve, I guess. I'm willing to bet there's more behind their animosity for each other than the girl.
Standard disclaimer: That's just my reading of the situation from limited information presented here, and I think people (myself included) overlay their own experiences to fill in the substantial gaps. If your daughter actually feels threatened, do what you must. That's just not how it seems to me, and calling the cops sounds like a pretty ridiculous and hysterical way of handling this. Going to the school might be better, but can be pretty damaging to everyone involved.
posted by cj_ at 6:16 AM on October 11, 2009
> If the school is like most schools, they have an anti-bullying policy.
Yeah, good luck with that. See if you can get in contact with the other parents.
Well, it works in my daughter's school district. ::shrug:: Bullying is taken seriously. The parents of the parties involved are spoken with and some kind of appropriate response is worked out. I know this because when my daughter was bullied, I spoke up and the situation was resolved to my satisfaction.
The school needs to keep her safe.
Repeated for emphasis. Please contact the school. If they don't know about a situation, they can't address it. Do you want your girl to go to school everyday wondering why nobody in authority gives a shit about her situation? Well, they can't give a shit if they don't know about it.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 7:31 AM on October 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
Yeah, good luck with that. See if you can get in contact with the other parents.
Well, it works in my daughter's school district. ::shrug:: Bullying is taken seriously. The parents of the parties involved are spoken with and some kind of appropriate response is worked out. I know this because when my daughter was bullied, I spoke up and the situation was resolved to my satisfaction.
The school needs to keep her safe.
Repeated for emphasis. Please contact the school. If they don't know about a situation, they can't address it. Do you want your girl to go to school everyday wondering why nobody in authority gives a shit about her situation? Well, they can't give a shit if they don't know about it.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 7:31 AM on October 11, 2009 [2 favorites]
I agree that the school needs to be notified and held accountable for the safety of your child. That being said, it really is not that simple and is unreasonable to think that children at that age can be monitored at every moment. Fights break out constantly in middle schools and there is just no way that they can all be stopped in time.
I think the best course of action is to notify the school so that they can do whatever is necessary, but it sounds like the boy is not going to stop because of school or parental pressure.
Personally I would enroll your daughter in a self defense program. The best one out there in my opinion is KM-X which is basically Krav Maga for kids. The program is completely about teaching children how to defend themselves in any possible situation, but also how to responsibly decide when it is necessary to fight and necessary to walk away. It is also great for building self esteem at an age that can be awful for most children. That being said, I would stray from Karate and most of the martial arts unless your child is interested in competing in an art. These forms can be a lot of fun but are not realistic forms of self defense in a 'street' fight. The KM-X program can also help you to relax a little in the ways most of us worry about young girls interaction with boys, they will teach her how to deal with all of those situations.
There is a Krav Maga gym in Phoenix which is close to the location in your profile. R.E.A.C.T. Defense Systems
Good luck with everything!
posted by trishthedish at 8:27 AM on October 11, 2009
I think the best course of action is to notify the school so that they can do whatever is necessary, but it sounds like the boy is not going to stop because of school or parental pressure.
Personally I would enroll your daughter in a self defense program. The best one out there in my opinion is KM-X which is basically Krav Maga for kids. The program is completely about teaching children how to defend themselves in any possible situation, but also how to responsibly decide when it is necessary to fight and necessary to walk away. It is also great for building self esteem at an age that can be awful for most children. That being said, I would stray from Karate and most of the martial arts unless your child is interested in competing in an art. These forms can be a lot of fun but are not realistic forms of self defense in a 'street' fight. The KM-X program can also help you to relax a little in the ways most of us worry about young girls interaction with boys, they will teach her how to deal with all of those situations.
There is a Krav Maga gym in Phoenix which is close to the location in your profile. R.E.A.C.T. Defense Systems
Good luck with everything!
posted by trishthedish at 8:27 AM on October 11, 2009
Serious overreactions abound. Kids will hit each other sometimes, and pre-teen hormone-powered years are full of far more 'passionate' events than these. Pretending they won't is just parenting with blinders on.
I fear that this mother is about to embarrass the protecting boy so deeply that he'll not only get a lot more abuse as a result, he'll learn to never dare stand up for anyone again.
I think different people here have different expectations about what school discipline involves. I mean, where I went to school, the school had some fairly effective discipline methods they could and did use. When I got caught fighting I was pulled up in front of the (16-stone-former-rugby-player) deputy head teacher who gave me a loud and clear explanation that he was very angry and if it happened again they would expel me; then he gave me a bunch of detention. You know what? I was shit-scared (a result entirely intended on the teacher's part, I later realised) and thought twice before doing the same thing again.
What I'm saying is, sure, fighting is a normal part of childhood, but being disciplined by school teachers is too.
Also IMHO your post seems a bit inconsistent. "Kids will hit each other sometimes" is how you address the emotional impacts of continued bullying upon the 11-year-old girl and protecting boy - and yet when thinking of having the bully disciplined you're worried about "deep embarrassment" and "he'll learn to never dare stand up for anyone again". Isn't it just as likely that if the bully goes undisciplined, the 11-year-old girl will learn to never dare stand up for herself? And the protecting boy will learn that if you do a good deed, you get punched in the head, and authority figures don't care?
posted by Mike1024 at 9:23 AM on October 11, 2009
I fear that this mother is about to embarrass the protecting boy so deeply that he'll not only get a lot more abuse as a result, he'll learn to never dare stand up for anyone again.
I think different people here have different expectations about what school discipline involves. I mean, where I went to school, the school had some fairly effective discipline methods they could and did use. When I got caught fighting I was pulled up in front of the (16-stone-former-rugby-player) deputy head teacher who gave me a loud and clear explanation that he was very angry and if it happened again they would expel me; then he gave me a bunch of detention. You know what? I was shit-scared (a result entirely intended on the teacher's part, I later realised) and thought twice before doing the same thing again.
What I'm saying is, sure, fighting is a normal part of childhood, but being disciplined by school teachers is too.
Also IMHO your post seems a bit inconsistent. "Kids will hit each other sometimes" is how you address the emotional impacts of continued bullying upon the 11-year-old girl and protecting boy - and yet when thinking of having the bully disciplined you're worried about "deep embarrassment" and "he'll learn to never dare stand up for anyone again". Isn't it just as likely that if the bully goes undisciplined, the 11-year-old girl will learn to never dare stand up for herself? And the protecting boy will learn that if you do a good deed, you get punched in the head, and authority figures don't care?
posted by Mike1024 at 9:23 AM on October 11, 2009
Regardless, it's common behavior in both adolescent and adult men. I mean, have you even been to a bar?
Sucker punching someone who has tried to get you to lay off a girl/woman, who has told you nearly daily for (over?) a month that she's not interested in your advances, is common behaviour in adolescent boys and adult men?
Threatening to hurt anyone who interferes with an imaginary, unilaterally-declared relationship, despite having near daily reminders for (over?) a month that no such relationship exists, is common behaviour in adolescent boys and adult men?
These are not normal rejected-boy behaviours.
Normal rejected-boy behaviours include: giving up after less than 10 instances of "No, I don't want to date you", moping, being a moody pain in the ass to friends and family, crying behind closed doors to emo-licious songs, writing bad poetry/music, badmouthing the girl and trying to convince everyone that you didn't really like her anyway, kicking or punching inanimate objects, and sometimes just getting over it.
posted by CKmtl at 11:13 AM on October 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
Sucker punching someone who has tried to get you to lay off a girl/woman, who has told you nearly daily for (over?) a month that she's not interested in your advances, is common behaviour in adolescent boys and adult men?
Threatening to hurt anyone who interferes with an imaginary, unilaterally-declared relationship, despite having near daily reminders for (over?) a month that no such relationship exists, is common behaviour in adolescent boys and adult men?
These are not normal rejected-boy behaviours.
Normal rejected-boy behaviours include: giving up after less than 10 instances of "No, I don't want to date you", moping, being a moody pain in the ass to friends and family, crying behind closed doors to emo-licious songs, writing bad poetry/music, badmouthing the girl and trying to convince everyone that you didn't really like her anyway, kicking or punching inanimate objects, and sometimes just getting over it.
posted by CKmtl at 11:13 AM on October 11, 2009 [4 favorites]
Isn't it just as likely that if the bully goes undisciplined, the 11-year-old girl will learn to never dare stand up for herself?
I don't think I'm being inconsistent, I think I'm looking bigger picture. I think fifteen other kids got a punch in the back of the head in the same school last week, and the only thing different here is that a third party parent knows about this one and is getting involved (the OP is the mother of neither boy) without even talking to the other parents first. That sounds meddlesome and overreactive to me.
It's middle school. That means that embarassment is quite possibly a bigger pain for the boy to suffer than a punch in the head. I know when I was 12 I would much have preferred a punch or two to having someone else's mother come running to save me. A bruise heals but I'd be living that second scenario down for years. I think there's a real chance, in fact, that ramping up the Sheila Broflovski drama prematurely could make things harder on all three kids in the future.
If the punched boy doesn't want help, I don't think it should be forced on him. If the OP wants to push and pursue that, which is outside the scope of her own child's issues, then I encourage discretion and respect for the boy's pride.
On the other hand, if her girl continues to be "stalked" (and I don't see anything here worse than typical middle school drama, but call it that if you want), then the OP-mother can talk to the school about that problem, of course. But inserting herself into the other boy's life isn't her business.
posted by rokusan at 12:01 PM on October 11, 2009
I don't think I'm being inconsistent, I think I'm looking bigger picture. I think fifteen other kids got a punch in the back of the head in the same school last week, and the only thing different here is that a third party parent knows about this one and is getting involved (the OP is the mother of neither boy) without even talking to the other parents first. That sounds meddlesome and overreactive to me.
It's middle school. That means that embarassment is quite possibly a bigger pain for the boy to suffer than a punch in the head. I know when I was 12 I would much have preferred a punch or two to having someone else's mother come running to save me. A bruise heals but I'd be living that second scenario down for years. I think there's a real chance, in fact, that ramping up the Sheila Broflovski drama prematurely could make things harder on all three kids in the future.
If the punched boy doesn't want help, I don't think it should be forced on him. If the OP wants to push and pursue that, which is outside the scope of her own child's issues, then I encourage discretion and respect for the boy's pride.
On the other hand, if her girl continues to be "stalked" (and I don't see anything here worse than typical middle school drama, but call it that if you want), then the OP-mother can talk to the school about that problem, of course. But inserting herself into the other boy's life isn't her business.
posted by rokusan at 12:01 PM on October 11, 2009
I think fifteen other kids got a punch in the back of the head in the same school last week
Seriously? At my school, fighting was a less-than-weekly event. I would say there were maybe 0.5 fights a week.
On the other hand, if her girl continues to be "stalked" (and I don't see anything here worse than typical middle school drama, but call it that if you want), then the OP-mother can talk to the school about that problem, of course. But inserting herself into the other boy's life isn't her business.
It's my opinion that the several weeks that have passed were already the "if it continues" bit. It has continued.
It would be nice if the mother could fix her daughter's problem without involving the punched boy, but they're kind of one and the same problem - the threat of violence, and the demonstration of it.
I guess in a way it comes down to how well you think the school administration could deal with the situation. I think they could do it without embarrassing the punched boy, because at my school discipline was handled pretty effectively. I'll admit that not all schools are the same as mine was.
posted by Mike1024 at 12:28 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Seriously? At my school, fighting was a less-than-weekly event. I would say there were maybe 0.5 fights a week.
On the other hand, if her girl continues to be "stalked" (and I don't see anything here worse than typical middle school drama, but call it that if you want), then the OP-mother can talk to the school about that problem, of course. But inserting herself into the other boy's life isn't her business.
It's my opinion that the several weeks that have passed were already the "if it continues" bit. It has continued.
It would be nice if the mother could fix her daughter's problem without involving the punched boy, but they're kind of one and the same problem - the threat of violence, and the demonstration of it.
I guess in a way it comes down to how well you think the school administration could deal with the situation. I think they could do it without embarrassing the punched boy, because at my school discipline was handled pretty effectively. I'll admit that not all schools are the same as mine was.
posted by Mike1024 at 12:28 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I appreciate the input and I think you have all helped me to find middle ground.
My message to the Principal, in addition to providing the sequence of events as I know them, requests that my daughter privately visit with the school counselor to discuss what she can do to discourage harassing behavior and that the first boy (bully) also meet with the counselor and/or principal to work on his social skills.
Since starting this thread I've learned that the boy who was punched went to the school counselor to report the incident (he apparantly doesn't need someone to run to his rescue).
The punching and reporting of the incident all happened near the end of the day before a school break, so the administration hasn't had much time to respond, but I'll try to discreetly stay on top of it.
posted by kbar1 at 1:28 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
My message to the Principal, in addition to providing the sequence of events as I know them, requests that my daughter privately visit with the school counselor to discuss what she can do to discourage harassing behavior and that the first boy (bully) also meet with the counselor and/or principal to work on his social skills.
Since starting this thread I've learned that the boy who was punched went to the school counselor to report the incident (he apparantly doesn't need someone to run to his rescue).
The punching and reporting of the incident all happened near the end of the day before a school break, so the administration hasn't had much time to respond, but I'll try to discreetly stay on top of it.
posted by kbar1 at 1:28 PM on October 11, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:15 PM on October 10, 2009