Long-term suicide watch or invasion of privacy?
September 29, 2009 8:12 PM Subscribe
My wife struggles with depression and, occasionally, suicidal ideation. But she doesn't communicate well (or nearly at all), so I have no real way of knowing when she's having a crisis rather than just another string of bad days / weeks. Is it ethical to monitor her internet activity without her knowledge so I have some idea of when I need to get serious about intervening?
She has struggled with depression and other issues for years, and has mentioned suicidal thoughts on several occasions (though has never made an attempt). She's also a very closed person, generally unable or unwilling to communicate the majority of her thoughts and feelings to anybody including myself. I make constant efforts to draw her out, but it's particularly vital that I confront her when she's deep enough to be considering suicide; I owe it to her, I owe it to myself, and most significantly I owe it to our children to do everything within my power to keep her from falling over that precipice. But I have no way to know if and when these thoughts are coming to the fore again (which they do, inevitable, even if there's six months between them sometimes), and asking her every few days "so, thinking of killing yourself today?" is not really productive.
But one thing I do know is that she researches anything she ever does compulsively on the internet. If she was seriously contemplating suicide, she would look it up first.
So here's the question. Is it ethical to monitor her internet activity (e.g. check her browser history) without her knowledge with the sole purpose of checking for such research, so that I can be aware and take extraordinary steps to communicate with her or even involve professionals?
Please no suggestions about therapy, or meds, or improving communication in general, or other ways to deal with the depression problem between actual crises; I'm aware of the value of these, that's not the point of my question. She is not in therapy, so I am the only one who can really keep track of her state of mind. And asking her if I can monitor her activity would, in the absolute best case scenario, simply result in her using different resources to perform any such research.
She has struggled with depression and other issues for years, and has mentioned suicidal thoughts on several occasions (though has never made an attempt). She's also a very closed person, generally unable or unwilling to communicate the majority of her thoughts and feelings to anybody including myself. I make constant efforts to draw her out, but it's particularly vital that I confront her when she's deep enough to be considering suicide; I owe it to her, I owe it to myself, and most significantly I owe it to our children to do everything within my power to keep her from falling over that precipice. But I have no way to know if and when these thoughts are coming to the fore again (which they do, inevitable, even if there's six months between them sometimes), and asking her every few days "so, thinking of killing yourself today?" is not really productive.
But one thing I do know is that she researches anything she ever does compulsively on the internet. If she was seriously contemplating suicide, she would look it up first.
So here's the question. Is it ethical to monitor her internet activity (e.g. check her browser history) without her knowledge with the sole purpose of checking for such research, so that I can be aware and take extraordinary steps to communicate with her or even involve professionals?
Please no suggestions about therapy, or meds, or improving communication in general, or other ways to deal with the depression problem between actual crises; I'm aware of the value of these, that's not the point of my question. She is not in therapy, so I am the only one who can really keep track of her state of mind. And asking her if I can monitor her activity would, in the absolute best case scenario, simply result in her using different resources to perform any such research.
My wife struggles with depression and, occasionally, suicidal ideation. But she doesn't communicate well (or nearly at all), so I have no real way of knowing when she's having a crisis rather than just another string of bad days / weeks...So here's the question. Is it ethical to monitor her internet activity (e.g. check her browser history) without her knowledge with the sole purpose of checking for such research, so that I can be aware and take extraordinary steps to communicate with her or even involve professionals?...Please no suggestions about therapy, or meds, or improving communication in general, or other ways to deal with the depression problem between actual crises; I'm aware of the value of these, that's not the point of my question. She is not in therapy, so I am the only one who can really keep track of her state of mind. And asking her if I can monitor her activity would, in the absolute best case scenario, simply result in her using different resources to perform any such research.
With those caveats in place, I think the answer is clear: no.
posted by davejay at 8:18 PM on September 29, 2009
With those caveats in place, I think the answer is clear: no.
posted by davejay at 8:18 PM on September 29, 2009
Professionals should already be involved if this is an ongoing concern. Keep trying until you find one (or more) providers your wife likes/trusts. I see why you would like to be vigilant but I pace a higher value on professional help because I am a clinician myself. Also, monitoring someone's suicidality is a HUGE task to take on yourself. E.g. if she does kill herself and you didn't check the browser that day, how will you cope? Good luck. I can see you have her best interests in mind.
posted by ShadePlant at 8:19 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by ShadePlant at 8:19 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
it's your wife. It's a life-threatening risk. Assuming you only check for things related to suicide/depression, don't pry into other things (which could lead to/indicate trust issues), and are only looking for indications that she may need help to prevent her harming herself because speaking to her openly/communicating is definitely not reliable then yes. In my opinion, it's ethical.
posted by bobdylanforever at 8:19 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by bobdylanforever at 8:19 PM on September 29, 2009
Eh, a bit more reasoning behind it: if you genuinely worry about her, you SHOULD have her in therapy, and if her THERAPIST says that you should be monitoring her without her knowledge, THEN it would be ethical.
posted by davejay at 8:20 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by davejay at 8:20 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
.Please no suggestions about therapy, or meds, or improving communication in general, or other ways to deal with the depression problem between actual crises; I'm aware of the value of these, that's not the point of my question.
Well, this issue is too important for AskMe groupthink.
Do whatever her therapist recommends.
posted by rokusan at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Well, this issue is too important for AskMe groupthink.
Do whatever her therapist recommends.
posted by rokusan at 8:24 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
No, it is not ethical.
I had a friend who was dating a guy that became convinced she was going to commit suicide-- and he started monitoring her email, bank accounts, browser history. It turned into a huge mess. She felt extremely betrayed and dumped him over it. Granted, you two are married, but still... not ethical at all.
posted by dragonette1 at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
I had a friend who was dating a guy that became convinced she was going to commit suicide-- and he started monitoring her email, bank accounts, browser history. It turned into a huge mess. She felt extremely betrayed and dumped him over it. Granted, you two are married, but still... not ethical at all.
posted by dragonette1 at 8:31 PM on September 29, 2009 [3 favorites]
Are you really going to let ethical concerns stop you from doing something that you sincerely believe could potentially save your wife's life?
What's your priority? Leading an ethically unblemished life, or your wife not killing herself?
posted by Jacqueline at 8:32 PM on September 29, 2009
What's your priority? Leading an ethically unblemished life, or your wife not killing herself?
posted by Jacqueline at 8:32 PM on September 29, 2009
This has nothing to do with ethics, at all.
What you have to consider here is basically:
a) what it would do to your relationship, communication and your ability to 'protect' your wife if she found you snooping on her history
b) the false sense of security checking her history will give you (maybe she clears it when she looks for sensitive topics, such as suicide)
I would speculate your best bet is to rootkit her computer...
posted by zentrification at 8:38 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
What you have to consider here is basically:
a) what it would do to your relationship, communication and your ability to 'protect' your wife if she found you snooping on her history
b) the false sense of security checking her history will give you (maybe she clears it when she looks for sensitive topics, such as suicide)
I would speculate your best bet is to rootkit her computer...
posted by zentrification at 8:38 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
I was once with someone with bi polar disorder and I did everything within my power to assure his safety so I would say check.
That being said I know how draining and horrifying mental illness is and I feel for you and your situation. While I do agree that therapy is important I am not in your shoes and wouldn't judge you either way. Even if she won't do therapy you might consider a support group for your own mental well being, you owe it to your children and yourself.
There is help out there. You must also consider your children's needs, seeing their mother depressed all the time is hard on them too.
Take Care.
posted by gypseefire at 8:43 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
That being said I know how draining and horrifying mental illness is and I feel for you and your situation. While I do agree that therapy is important I am not in your shoes and wouldn't judge you either way. Even if she won't do therapy you might consider a support group for your own mental well being, you owe it to your children and yourself.
There is help out there. You must also consider your children's needs, seeing their mother depressed all the time is hard on them too.
Take Care.
posted by gypseefire at 8:43 PM on September 29, 2009 [1 favorite]
Having once been in her shoes, I'm telling you that this would backfire and backfire big. Just trust me on this.
Then find a way to get her trained help. If you don't have money typically your county will have resources that are accessible with a sliding fee scale, and many appropriate medications can be obtained direct from manufacturer if you cannot afford them (there are programs-your doctor will know about them,)
This would be like if she had cancer and you were trying to treat it at home.
DON'T DO THAT.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:46 PM on September 29, 2009 [8 favorites]
Then find a way to get her trained help. If you don't have money typically your county will have resources that are accessible with a sliding fee scale, and many appropriate medications can be obtained direct from manufacturer if you cannot afford them (there are programs-your doctor will know about them,)
This would be like if she had cancer and you were trying to treat it at home.
DON'T DO THAT.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:46 PM on September 29, 2009 [8 favorites]
I think it is more ethical to help her than it is to not help her, so with that logic it's maybe OK. However, I'd like to offer that it is quite possible that she's already done any needed research so this is not at all a fool-proof method of knowing her thoughts or plans. Please consider additional means of helping her (and you) work through this.
posted by Houstonian at 8:49 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by Houstonian at 8:49 PM on September 29, 2009
What does YOUR therapist say?
I know you said no therapy suggestions, and you stated this as putatively an ethical question, but it really isn't. You are under a great deal of stress here, and you do have a great responsibility to your family. However, you are not, and cannot, be responsible for your wife's behavior.
What happens if you do find out through your tracking her that she is looking at alarming sites? Do you confront her then, and with what result? Say it resolves this time, but then she's aware of what you're doing, and she finds the alternate means that you mentioned the next time.
She needs help. You cannot force that help. What I'm thinking is that YOU need help, too, and you CAN do something about that. Find someone to talk to.
posted by thebrokedown at 8:49 PM on September 29, 2009 [14 favorites]
I know you said no therapy suggestions, and you stated this as putatively an ethical question, but it really isn't. You are under a great deal of stress here, and you do have a great responsibility to your family. However, you are not, and cannot, be responsible for your wife's behavior.
What happens if you do find out through your tracking her that she is looking at alarming sites? Do you confront her then, and with what result? Say it resolves this time, but then she's aware of what you're doing, and she finds the alternate means that you mentioned the next time.
She needs help. You cannot force that help. What I'm thinking is that YOU need help, too, and you CAN do something about that. Find someone to talk to.
posted by thebrokedown at 8:49 PM on September 29, 2009 [14 favorites]
No. Seek consent first. Otherwise you are avoiding a critical thing that nobody is acknowledging here.
As the son of a mother of a similar type, not dealing with this is putting your children at risk. I lived that, and it was a mistake.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:58 PM on September 29, 2009
As the son of a mother of a similar type, not dealing with this is putting your children at risk. I lived that, and it was a mistake.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:58 PM on September 29, 2009
I agree that you and the children need help...having dealt with depression and suicidal thoughts if she's serious, she doesn't need to research it. She's already researched it in her mind a thousand times over. If she already feels hopeless, feeling betrayed by the one who loves her could put her over the edge. The fact that she does sometimes mention it should give you hope...it could mean that she desperately wants help but doesn't know how to get it or is embarrassed by it. How withdrawn is she? Does she have any friends that she confides in? Don't smother her even out of love or she will feel worse about herself. Find a way to at least get yourself and your children help, and maybe she will eventually include herself is she sees it as a sense of "normal". Either way, you can get better advice than you can get here. Gook luck and God bless.
posted by kittieJen at 9:20 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by kittieJen at 9:20 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
I understand the impulse, but I think this would completely undermine what you are trying to accomplish. First of all, to answer your question the way you framed it, no, it's not ethical to try to control the situation through subterfuge. If she trusts you now, she won't when and if she figures out you are monitoring her activity. What information you are now able to gleam directly from her will most likely no longer be forthcoming. Also, you said she researches everything extensively, so without context you really won't be able to judge the value of what you find. It's also not ethical to refuse to take advantage of the resources that traditionally help this situation like doctors, counseling, and possibly medication. You don't mention why none of these are in play, but completely eliminating the possibility of factoring them in is not helpful to anyone.
I also wanted to mention that there is a difference between suicidal ideation and actually being suicidal. How big a leap it is from one to the other varies from person to person. IANAD, but I tend to believe when people are truly suicidal that they don't mention it or leave clues for anyone because they do not want anything to interfere with their plans. The fact that your wife has shared these thoughts with you at all means she wants help. Really, the only way to help her and keep her depression from progressing is talking and professional assistance, and the ethical thing to do is to avail yourself of those resources in whatever ways you can. As thebrokedown already wrote, she should be getting professional help, but if she's unwilling, you can't force her. In the end, all you can control is yourself and the welfare of your kids. You should get some professional assistance, and your kids could probably benefit from counseling as well. You don't indicate how old they are or how much you think they know, but even at a very young age, kids sense this stuff and it effects them deeply. I know this is tremendously difficult for all of you. Best of luck to you and your family.
posted by katemcd at 9:27 PM on September 29, 2009
I also wanted to mention that there is a difference between suicidal ideation and actually being suicidal. How big a leap it is from one to the other varies from person to person. IANAD, but I tend to believe when people are truly suicidal that they don't mention it or leave clues for anyone because they do not want anything to interfere with their plans. The fact that your wife has shared these thoughts with you at all means she wants help. Really, the only way to help her and keep her depression from progressing is talking and professional assistance, and the ethical thing to do is to avail yourself of those resources in whatever ways you can. As thebrokedown already wrote, she should be getting professional help, but if she's unwilling, you can't force her. In the end, all you can control is yourself and the welfare of your kids. You should get some professional assistance, and your kids could probably benefit from counseling as well. You don't indicate how old they are or how much you think they know, but even at a very young age, kids sense this stuff and it effects them deeply. I know this is tremendously difficult for all of you. Best of luck to you and your family.
posted by katemcd at 9:27 PM on September 29, 2009
I would find it ethical to monitor with the intent of preventing suicide, but I think it's bad for your relationship and not a real solution. Problems with it:
- it's a big burden on you
- while you may not mind the burden, if you continue acting as her caretaker, rather than her partner, it might reduce the likelihood of her taking better care of herself
- if you take on this burden, you will have less energy for others, like your children
- you cannot help as much as a professional, so if this reduces the incentive to get her professional help, it reduces the amount of real help she'll get
- you will know everything she is thinking, which will lead to situations that are awkward and uncomfortable for you (searches like "husband lack of sexual interest how to revive" and "planning a surprise party")
- you will know everything that she is thinking, and you will know that you know, and you will know that she doesn't know that you know, which will make your relationship unbalanced in a way that is bad for you both
- she could end up very angry about that imbalance of power, and that rather than dealing with her as an equal, you chose to secretly set up a situation like that
If you remain committed to doing this, I'd take these steps:
- talk to someone so that this burden doesn't remain on you alone
- carefully watch what this burden keeps you from having energy and attention for
- commit yourself to doing all you can to get her real help
- consider ways to limit what you know and protect as much privacy for her as possible*
- express clearly to her (warn her) that your fear that she'll commit suicide and your desire to save her, yourself, and your children from that is causing you to want to do things that would shift you into a role of being a monitor, guard, and protector instead of an equal partner
* Could you pay someone else to do it and only alert you when the threat was high? Could you have searches with certain keywords get put somewhere, so you see important ones like "how to buy a gun" and some false positives like "trivial pursuit what kind of gun did John Wayne use?" but not every single thing she is reading about?
posted by salvia at 9:28 PM on September 29, 2009
- it's a big burden on you
- while you may not mind the burden, if you continue acting as her caretaker, rather than her partner, it might reduce the likelihood of her taking better care of herself
- if you take on this burden, you will have less energy for others, like your children
- you cannot help as much as a professional, so if this reduces the incentive to get her professional help, it reduces the amount of real help she'll get
- you will know everything she is thinking, which will lead to situations that are awkward and uncomfortable for you (searches like "husband lack of sexual interest how to revive" and "planning a surprise party")
- you will know everything that she is thinking, and you will know that you know, and you will know that she doesn't know that you know, which will make your relationship unbalanced in a way that is bad for you both
- she could end up very angry about that imbalance of power, and that rather than dealing with her as an equal, you chose to secretly set up a situation like that
If you remain committed to doing this, I'd take these steps:
- talk to someone so that this burden doesn't remain on you alone
- carefully watch what this burden keeps you from having energy and attention for
- commit yourself to doing all you can to get her real help
- consider ways to limit what you know and protect as much privacy for her as possible*
- express clearly to her (warn her) that your fear that she'll commit suicide and your desire to save her, yourself, and your children from that is causing you to want to do things that would shift you into a role of being a monitor, guard, and protector instead of an equal partner
* Could you pay someone else to do it and only alert you when the threat was high? Could you have searches with certain keywords get put somewhere, so you see important ones like "how to buy a gun" and some false positives like "trivial pursuit what kind of gun did John Wayne use?" but not every single thing she is reading about?
posted by salvia at 9:28 PM on September 29, 2009
Everyone in this situation needs help. Even if your wife won't get help, get help for you and your kids. Right now you're making yourself responsible for her not killing herself--this is not a healthy way to live.
Is it defensible, in the short term, for you to spy on her Internet activity? Yes. I will be the FISA Court of the Internet and give you permission to do that.
But is that an effective way to deal with a problem of this scope? Absolutely not.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:39 PM on September 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
Is it defensible, in the short term, for you to spy on her Internet activity? Yes. I will be the FISA Court of the Internet and give you permission to do that.
But is that an effective way to deal with a problem of this scope? Absolutely not.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:39 PM on September 29, 2009 [2 favorites]
An old family friend visited a couple weeks ago who's daughter is anorexic and depressed. Evidence included: extreme weight loss and writings that expressed nihilism, her hatred of herself and life in general. These, she assured me, were obvious writings, not journal writings she snooped into, and I believe she's being earnest.
Once my friend told me that her daughter was flirting with non-self, I told her that she needed to intervene: at a certain point there's no other choice. I recognized her daughter intimately as a reflection of my own past and remembered vividly that if no-one had intervened on my behalf, there would be no more...anything.
So. Should you snoop? No. Should you intervene? Yes. You already have all the evidence you need to know that she's depressed, had thoughts of suicide, and has completely shut herself off from all, including those closest and dearest to her. She, at this point, probably doesn't recognize that you are either close or dear, but YOU know you are and that's all you have to go on: your love for her and the horrible responsibility handed to you by her evil brain chemistry to keep her safe. That is the vow: richer and poorer, sickness and health.
She's ill, and you need to care for her if she can't care for herself or her children. You have to intervene, but not by betraying her privacy. Tell her you're going to find her a doctor and take her there yourself if you have to. You might, because debilitating depression renders people utterly useless in their own care and feeding.
Most importantly, you need to monitor your own mental health: there is no greater strain than to watch your loved-ones spiral into mental instability. I know it from the other side: my poor Dad had just a helluva time, and no-one was looking out for him. Who's watching the watcher?
Take care, and tell your family doctor your problem. They will have a host of referral services to point you toward. If you need to talk to one who's been the nut on the other side you can contact me.
posted by readymade at 9:40 PM on September 29, 2009 [18 favorites]
Once my friend told me that her daughter was flirting with non-self, I told her that she needed to intervene: at a certain point there's no other choice. I recognized her daughter intimately as a reflection of my own past and remembered vividly that if no-one had intervened on my behalf, there would be no more...anything.
So. Should you snoop? No. Should you intervene? Yes. You already have all the evidence you need to know that she's depressed, had thoughts of suicide, and has completely shut herself off from all, including those closest and dearest to her. She, at this point, probably doesn't recognize that you are either close or dear, but YOU know you are and that's all you have to go on: your love for her and the horrible responsibility handed to you by her evil brain chemistry to keep her safe. That is the vow: richer and poorer, sickness and health.
She's ill, and you need to care for her if she can't care for herself or her children. You have to intervene, but not by betraying her privacy. Tell her you're going to find her a doctor and take her there yourself if you have to. You might, because debilitating depression renders people utterly useless in their own care and feeding.
Most importantly, you need to monitor your own mental health: there is no greater strain than to watch your loved-ones spiral into mental instability. I know it from the other side: my poor Dad had just a helluva time, and no-one was looking out for him. Who's watching the watcher?
Take care, and tell your family doctor your problem. They will have a host of referral services to point you toward. If you need to talk to one who's been the nut on the other side you can contact me.
posted by readymade at 9:40 PM on September 29, 2009 [18 favorites]
What readymade said.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:01 PM on September 29, 2009
posted by small_ruminant at 10:01 PM on September 29, 2009
If she were to kill herself, after you refused to monitor her internet activity for "ethical" reasons, would you be congratulating yourself on your ethics --- or cursing yourself for having entertained such foolish illusions about what ethics forbids?
And if she were to find out he'd been betraying her trust by spying on her, how many of the paths out of that mess are good ones? He could just as easily push her into doing what he'd been trying to prevent. And what of the corrosive effect on your relationship of keeping the secret, of pretending not to know things you discover during your snooping? Now is the time to find someone to help her deal with her problems, not some hypothetical "just in time" you may or may not be able to catch before she finds her own solution to the problem.
Ask yourself this - are you willing to bet her life on being right in your assumptions?
posted by scalefree at 10:25 PM on September 29, 2009
And if she were to find out he'd been betraying her trust by spying on her, how many of the paths out of that mess are good ones? He could just as easily push her into doing what he'd been trying to prevent. And what of the corrosive effect on your relationship of keeping the secret, of pretending not to know things you discover during your snooping? Now is the time to find someone to help her deal with her problems, not some hypothetical "just in time" you may or may not be able to catch before she finds her own solution to the problem.
Ask yourself this - are you willing to bet her life on being right in your assumptions?
posted by scalefree at 10:25 PM on September 29, 2009
Seems like you're creating a false box in which to operate. You're setting it up as the only way you can help her keep from killing herself when it's not. What if she's already researched suicide before and then one day just decides to do it without re-researching the topic? Or she researches it one day when you're away and then does it before you get home to check her history? Or is irrational and overwhelmed like suiciders tend to be and therefore doesn't follow her usual patterns?
I know what it's like to try to confine a question here and keep people on topic, but if you want to "do everything within my power to keep her from falling over that precipice," you'll do more than check her browser history. There's a lot more in your power than that. It doesn't really matter if it's ethical because that whole line of thought is a sidetrack from the real issue. It's a watered down version of the classic Philosophy 101 question of whether you, as someone who would never otherwise steal, would nonetheless break into a lab and steal an experimental medicine that you knew would save your dying wife's life, but which wasn't yet available for sale. Is now really the time to play that kind of thought game? You're in that hypothetical situation in real life except the medicine you're contemplating stealing won't save her life. Meanwhile the store is open and stocked full of things than can help her but you won't go in.
Yes it's a breach of trust to spy on someone that way, yes it can cause serious problems, yes it would be justifiable if it was the only way to save someone's life, and no it's not an effective way to save your wife's life. Get over whatever resistance you have to doing something real about this and do something real about it. Go ahead and "take extraordinary steps to communicate with her or even involve professionals." Why would you not already be doing this? Why would you need anybody on a message board to tell you that's the way to go? Try asking a professional this one: "My wife is periodically suicidal. What should we do?" Then go do that. If it involves a browser I'll eat my hat.
Are you exaggerating her suicidal ideation? Is this a lot less critical than you're billing it? Is this more of a casual concern? Do you really just "kinda wanna know what she's thinking since she's not very communicative"? If so, your question is valid and you've got some answers to choose from. If not, if you're worried your wife may kill herself, it's not.
If you've tweaked the facts around this question to make it easier get help with one part of your problem without having to get all into the larger issue with us, that's one thing and I get it. Maybe you've got other parts under control and really just want to focus on some minor thing you're also thinking about. But if this is really the way you're thinking about the larger issue, you have to pop your bubble and get serious. How are you going to feel if she kills herself and all you did was check her browser history? "Well she wasn't a good communicator. There was nothing else I could do," you'll tell people, I guess. Right?
posted by Askr at 10:54 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
I know what it's like to try to confine a question here and keep people on topic, but if you want to "do everything within my power to keep her from falling over that precipice," you'll do more than check her browser history. There's a lot more in your power than that. It doesn't really matter if it's ethical because that whole line of thought is a sidetrack from the real issue. It's a watered down version of the classic Philosophy 101 question of whether you, as someone who would never otherwise steal, would nonetheless break into a lab and steal an experimental medicine that you knew would save your dying wife's life, but which wasn't yet available for sale. Is now really the time to play that kind of thought game? You're in that hypothetical situation in real life except the medicine you're contemplating stealing won't save her life. Meanwhile the store is open and stocked full of things than can help her but you won't go in.
Yes it's a breach of trust to spy on someone that way, yes it can cause serious problems, yes it would be justifiable if it was the only way to save someone's life, and no it's not an effective way to save your wife's life. Get over whatever resistance you have to doing something real about this and do something real about it. Go ahead and "take extraordinary steps to communicate with her or even involve professionals." Why would you not already be doing this? Why would you need anybody on a message board to tell you that's the way to go? Try asking a professional this one: "My wife is periodically suicidal. What should we do?" Then go do that. If it involves a browser I'll eat my hat.
Are you exaggerating her suicidal ideation? Is this a lot less critical than you're billing it? Is this more of a casual concern? Do you really just "kinda wanna know what she's thinking since she's not very communicative"? If so, your question is valid and you've got some answers to choose from. If not, if you're worried your wife may kill herself, it's not.
If you've tweaked the facts around this question to make it easier get help with one part of your problem without having to get all into the larger issue with us, that's one thing and I get it. Maybe you've got other parts under control and really just want to focus on some minor thing you're also thinking about. But if this is really the way you're thinking about the larger issue, you have to pop your bubble and get serious. How are you going to feel if she kills herself and all you did was check her browser history? "Well she wasn't a good communicator. There was nothing else I could do," you'll tell people, I guess. Right?
posted by Askr at 10:54 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
"... But one thing I do know is that she researches anything she ever does compulsively on the internet. If she was seriously contemplating suicide, she would look it up first. ...
As the primary caretaker of a person with serious mental illness, who has made multiple unsuccessful suicide attempts, the most recent being in December 2008, I have to challenge your assumptions, as quoted above. A surprisingly high percentage of suicide attempts in mentally ill persons occur, more or less, as spur of the moment acts of, for want of a better word, opportunity. Perhaps the person has been having suicidal thoughts, but in a mind that is not rational, there is no guarantee that a long thought process will always precede an attempt.
People take showers, see a hair dryer left out by some other member of a household, and plug it in while stepping into the shower, all in about 15 seconds. Edgar Allen Poe called our tendency to do things against our own self-interest the Imp of the Perverse, and I think that in many severely ill people, such impulses are even more compelling, when they occur, for the very singleness of purpose, and the momentary seeming clarity that such sudden thoughts can carry.
I think the truly ethical thing for you to do is to find professionals with whom you can share this burden, and get advice and help for yourself and your wife. On the chance that you live in the United States, I'll again mention NAMI, and suggest you contact your local chapter for advice and support from the volunteers who make up this organization, for guidance and direction to local mental health resources.
No one, not even a professional, can take on the care of a mentally ill adult, by themselves, and do the job well. It takes more expertise and viewpoints than any one person can supply, to successfully treat and care for a mentally ill person, throughout the full course of many mental illnesses.
On preview, I second Askr's sentiments above.
posted by paulsc at 11:02 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
As the primary caretaker of a person with serious mental illness, who has made multiple unsuccessful suicide attempts, the most recent being in December 2008, I have to challenge your assumptions, as quoted above. A surprisingly high percentage of suicide attempts in mentally ill persons occur, more or less, as spur of the moment acts of, for want of a better word, opportunity. Perhaps the person has been having suicidal thoughts, but in a mind that is not rational, there is no guarantee that a long thought process will always precede an attempt.
People take showers, see a hair dryer left out by some other member of a household, and plug it in while stepping into the shower, all in about 15 seconds. Edgar Allen Poe called our tendency to do things against our own self-interest the Imp of the Perverse, and I think that in many severely ill people, such impulses are even more compelling, when they occur, for the very singleness of purpose, and the momentary seeming clarity that such sudden thoughts can carry.
I think the truly ethical thing for you to do is to find professionals with whom you can share this burden, and get advice and help for yourself and your wife. On the chance that you live in the United States, I'll again mention NAMI, and suggest you contact your local chapter for advice and support from the volunteers who make up this organization, for guidance and direction to local mental health resources.
No one, not even a professional, can take on the care of a mentally ill adult, by themselves, and do the job well. It takes more expertise and viewpoints than any one person can supply, to successfully treat and care for a mentally ill person, throughout the full course of many mental illnesses.
On preview, I second Askr's sentiments above.
posted by paulsc at 11:02 PM on September 29, 2009 [4 favorites]
But I have no way to know if and when these thoughts are coming to the fore again (which they do, inevitable, even if there's six months between them sometimes), and asking her every few days "so, thinking of killing yourself today?" is not really productive.
Actually, this is exactly what you should do. If you have reason to believe a person is actively suicidal, then you should ask them if they are actively suicidal, no matter how impolite that question may seem. "I'm concerned about you. Please tell me honestly, are you considering hurting yourself?" is a good way to phrase it. If the answer is yes, then you need to find out if your wife has a plan, and if she has the means to carry out that plan. If the answers to both of those questions are yes, it's time to get emergency help. (Actually, she should be receiving ongoing care from trained professionals, not relying on you to monitor her mental health, but that's another question entirely.)
The point is, checking her internet history really isn't a good way of getting the answers you need. Search records that include suicide don't tell you whether she is actively suicidal, has a plan for committing suicide and has the means to carry out that plan. You say she's been depressed before; how do you know she didn't look this up last time she was unwell? It's entirely possible she already has all the information she needs to kill herself. The best thing you can do is get her into treatment as quickly as possible.
posted by embrangled at 11:31 PM on September 29, 2009 [6 favorites]
Actually, this is exactly what you should do. If you have reason to believe a person is actively suicidal, then you should ask them if they are actively suicidal, no matter how impolite that question may seem. "I'm concerned about you. Please tell me honestly, are you considering hurting yourself?" is a good way to phrase it. If the answer is yes, then you need to find out if your wife has a plan, and if she has the means to carry out that plan. If the answers to both of those questions are yes, it's time to get emergency help. (Actually, she should be receiving ongoing care from trained professionals, not relying on you to monitor her mental health, but that's another question entirely.)
The point is, checking her internet history really isn't a good way of getting the answers you need. Search records that include suicide don't tell you whether she is actively suicidal, has a plan for committing suicide and has the means to carry out that plan. You say she's been depressed before; how do you know she didn't look this up last time she was unwell? It's entirely possible she already has all the information she needs to kill herself. The best thing you can do is get her into treatment as quickly as possible.
posted by embrangled at 11:31 PM on September 29, 2009 [6 favorites]
Give her a symbolic way to communicate. Depression keeps a person from vocally asking for help. Instead, have her place a coin in a certain place when she is in a bad place. Maybe have her even write a number on the fridge from 1-5 depending on her mood for that day. Don't spy though, you are her husband, not her father.
posted by idiotfactory at 12:25 AM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by idiotfactory at 12:25 AM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]
via the New York Times: In a 2001 University of Houston study of 153 survivors of nearly lethal attempts between the ages of 13 and 34, only 13 percent reported having contemplated their act for eight hours or longer. To the contrary, 70 percent set the interval between deciding to kill themselves and acting at less than an hour, including an astonishing 24 percent who pegged the interval at less than five minutes.I am quoting that article as a reality check. Your plan is caring and well-intentioned. It is also ill-conceived: You are too emotionally close to this problem and you are justifiably stressed and you are not thinking objectively or clearly. There is very little benefit to the course of action that you are considering and quite a few dangers. 87 percent of people who attempt suicide don't make up their mind until the hour! Monitoring her browser history with that kind of frequency is impossible.
I can sympathize with your situation because I also took on a "caretaker" role with a partner who had suicidal ideation. We both came out of the other side of that tunnel unscathed and (I believe) as better, more robust people, but we never would have if I hadn't had my own therapist, if she hadn't been in therapy and if I didn't ultimately see the futility of the caretaker role and decide that I needed to take care of myself primarily and that taking care of myself was not mutually exclusive to creating a good outcome for both of us. This situation is bigger than you and it's not 100% in your control, which is really, really scary. One thing you can do right now to gain control is to remove as many potentially deadly tools from your household as possible, especially if you know the types of suicidal fantasies that your wife has. The idea that a suicide will usually find alternate means is actually provably false.
Ultimately, though, you've rationalized away every single reasonable avenue of help. I suspect that it's because you've already broached them with your wife and she's refused. Speaking as someone who has had leaps and bounds in overcoming my own depression, I know that the illusion of lack of options is the fuel of depression and suicidal thinking. Don't fall into that trap. The next best thing to getting help for someone is to model good self-care by getting help for yourself. Find yourself a therapist. Eventually you may be able to ask your wife to attend your therapy with you. Living with a sufferer of mental illness is as pressing of a reason to be in therapy as any other reason.
If your wife is worried about the stigma or has a pop culture lying on a leather couch view of therapy, there are resources she can connect with that might not seem as scary to her. Church leaders are a resource. Alternately, many health clinics and hospitals have social workers and clinicians who are trained in these issues but who are not psychologists or psychiatrists and talking to your family doctor would be a good start. Enlisting stable family and friends and creating a safety plan are very, very good ideas. You might not need to couch it in such therapeutic language. Just make a list with your wife of the people she trusts to talk to when she's sad and ask if she can agree to call them during the next time she's having self-harming thoughts. Let these people know that they are part of this list. I'd make sure that there's a number on that list where someone is guaranteed to answer 24/7, such as a crisis hotline.
The ethical priority here is not to save your wife. Your wife is a free actor and will make her own choices and will bare the ethical responsibility alone for those choices. It is a kindness to stay with her, to comfort her, to find resources and to show her a better path but all you can do is show.
So, what is the ethical priority? The ethical priority is to protect your children, because they are unable to make their own choices. Between everyone in your family, you're the one with the most empowerment right now to make choices that will protect your children and keep them healthy. Please don't do this alone, for your sake and for your family's sake.
posted by Skwirl at 12:36 AM on September 30, 2009 [11 favorites]
Another thought: If your wife turns to the internet when she has problems to work through, she is an ideal candidate for Mood Gym or its newer cousin, E-Couch. Both of these sites provide free, online, self-directed cognitive behavioural therapy for depression and other mood disorders. They're run by the Centre for Mental Health Research at the Australian National University, and backed up by encouraging clinical trials. Not what you asked, I know, but possibly a solution to the situation you find yourself in.
posted by embrangled at 1:07 AM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by embrangled at 1:07 AM on September 30, 2009 [3 favorites]
Is it ethical to monitor her internet activity (e.g. check her browser history) without her knowledge with the sole purpose of checking for such research, so that I can be aware and take extraordinary steps to communicate with her or even involve professionals?
No. If she's that on the edge, you can have try to have her committed, have her have herself committed, or seek to legally take over her medical care, but you can't do anything else if you want to be 'ethical'. Having integrity is what I think you mean, and it means being above board, even when it's unpleasant.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:21 AM on September 30, 2009
No. If she's that on the edge, you can have try to have her committed, have her have herself committed, or seek to legally take over her medical care, but you can't do anything else if you want to be 'ethical'. Having integrity is what I think you mean, and it means being above board, even when it's unpleasant.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 5:21 AM on September 30, 2009
It would be totally unethical to do what you propose.
It would also be totally unethical to let someone with severe depression and suicidal ideation continue to go without therapy, medication, good communication, or a support network beyond a husband who thinks snooping on her is the best way to help her.
I get that you're trying to help her. This is absolutely the wrong way to go about it.
posted by ook at 5:36 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
It would also be totally unethical to let someone with severe depression and suicidal ideation continue to go without therapy, medication, good communication, or a support network beyond a husband who thinks snooping on her is the best way to help her.
I get that you're trying to help her. This is absolutely the wrong way to go about it.
posted by ook at 5:36 AM on September 30, 2009 [1 favorite]
Ask her how she feels about it when she is feeling good.
posted by gjc at 6:43 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by gjc at 6:43 AM on September 30, 2009
follow-up from the OP
I very much appreciate all the feedback here so far, it's a valuable reality check. What I'm hearing so far is that while this is probably an ethical option -- or at least a defensible one given the alternative -- it's also not a terribly practical one in the long term, in part because the fallout of doing this behind my wife's back may/will ultimately hurt the relationship and make her feel betrayed, and so sacrifice an even more vital tool to helping her. And it's also not necessarily even useful as her normal behavior may not even apply if she steps over this edge (Skwirl's quote was very eye-opening). While I do have better tools at my disposal than simply reading her browser history, they also wouldn't let me monitor 24/7.posted by jessamyn at 7:00 AM on September 30, 2009
To answer the concern many have on here -- I'm not ignoring therapy, and this question is not the only way I'm trying to help her. The issue is, she has tried therapy and meds (though hasn't invested nearly enough of herself or her time to let them really start to help), and has decided emphatically that she will not pursue that again. I still urge her to do so, but whenever the subject is brought up, she responds with anger and frustration that I'm ignoring what she's already decided on the matter, so that goes nowhere fast. I do understand that it would be useful to involve a therapist on my own side, both to help with the burden and to help me understand how to help her, and I will pursue that.
You didn't say in your follow-up, but you're getting help for yourself, too, right? I'd say that's at least as important as your wife getting help. (Put your own oxygen mask on first, and all that.)
posted by small_ruminant at 8:28 AM on September 30, 2009
posted by small_ruminant at 8:28 AM on September 30, 2009
Anon, as someone who also struggles with depression, this question breaks my heart a bit. It's great that you're trying so hard to help her, but I feel the need to state that no matter what you do or don't do, if she loses this fight, it is not your fault.
I'm trying to think of what advice to give to you. Sometimes when I'm fighting the dark cloud, it helps when my husband takes other things off my plate, like chores and such. Sometimes it helps when he tells me things will be okay, and sometimes it helps more when he acknowledges that I "know" that things won't be okay, but that he'll be there for me anyway. But in the end, he can't fix it. I appreciate it that he wants to, but he can't. I know it is really difficult to be so helpless in the face of such an enemy, but you are helpless here. It's not that you're doing something wrong or not doing something enough.
Sometimes the thing that helps me most is when he tells me exactly what you're telling us here: that it scares him, that he hates feeling helpless, that he doesn't want to lose me, that he will do anything to help if we can figure out together what that would look like. And we are in the habit of checking up on each other every few days ("How do you feel, really?") and it helps too.
But it's hers, not yours. If this were cancer, it wouldn't be your fault, and it's depression, and it wouldn't be your fault.
posted by heatherann at 10:42 AM on September 30, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'm trying to think of what advice to give to you. Sometimes when I'm fighting the dark cloud, it helps when my husband takes other things off my plate, like chores and such. Sometimes it helps when he tells me things will be okay, and sometimes it helps more when he acknowledges that I "know" that things won't be okay, but that he'll be there for me anyway. But in the end, he can't fix it. I appreciate it that he wants to, but he can't. I know it is really difficult to be so helpless in the face of such an enemy, but you are helpless here. It's not that you're doing something wrong or not doing something enough.
Sometimes the thing that helps me most is when he tells me exactly what you're telling us here: that it scares him, that he hates feeling helpless, that he doesn't want to lose me, that he will do anything to help if we can figure out together what that would look like. And we are in the habit of checking up on each other every few days ("How do you feel, really?") and it helps too.
But it's hers, not yours. If this were cancer, it wouldn't be your fault, and it's depression, and it wouldn't be your fault.
posted by heatherann at 10:42 AM on September 30, 2009 [4 favorites]
I think you are asking the wrong question. Snooping on your wife's private communication is not the best way to help her. She is not a child. I recommend that you seek therapy for yourself. Living with a chronically depressed person is severely stressful. getting yourself healthy will have a strong effect. I also recommend you invite her to go on walks with you and anything else you can do to get outside in the sunshine, and get exercise. I've struggled with depression, and sunshine and exercise can't be overemphasized. Having a dog is a big help; I get more outdoor exercise, and dogs are loving and loyal in ways that humans aren't.
There are pretty valid indicators of depression and suicidal threat. You can learn those. Over time, the key is to help your wife seek appropriate medical help. If she appears to be in danger of self harm, call 911.
That NYTimes article is interesting. I also recommend Art Kleiner's How Not to Commit Suicide. Not just for you; for her, too.
posted by theora55 at 12:05 PM on September 30, 2009
There are pretty valid indicators of depression and suicidal threat. You can learn those. Over time, the key is to help your wife seek appropriate medical help. If she appears to be in danger of self harm, call 911.
That NYTimes article is interesting. I also recommend Art Kleiner's How Not to Commit Suicide. Not just for you; for her, too.
posted by theora55 at 12:05 PM on September 30, 2009
So, you're willing to help your wife with her difficulties by spying on her so you can intervene should the need arise -- but you're not willing to help her by encouraging her to seek professional help -- help that she desperately NEEDS?
posted by trunk muffins at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2009
posted by trunk muffins at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2009
I would definitely do that as part of "keeping an eye on her health". You're not doing it to catch her in a crime, or to judge her or browbeat her, just as a way to see into her mind.
I feel for you. I have chronic major depression, anxiety, and PTSD myself, and I know my hubby is worried about me on some days.
Also - if you know about her situation, be watchful for things that may be "triggers". If I watch a movie about child abuse or the like, I can go into a funk. I can't even WATCH movies about the military!
Dialectic Behavior Modification REALLY REALLY helped me with handling my own thoughts. Perhaps you can use some of the techniques to help her break her downward spiral? Getting her to not ruminate on 'sad stuff', replacing bad with good, etc...
Also, one doctor put me on Lithium. It's VERY effective against suicidal ideation in depressives! I used it for a year, and have now stopped, but boy, it kept me from even THINKING about grabbing a gun when I got sad!
Good luck to you!
posted by Jinx of the 2nd Law at 3:21 PM on September 30, 2009
I feel for you. I have chronic major depression, anxiety, and PTSD myself, and I know my hubby is worried about me on some days.
Also - if you know about her situation, be watchful for things that may be "triggers". If I watch a movie about child abuse or the like, I can go into a funk. I can't even WATCH movies about the military!
Dialectic Behavior Modification REALLY REALLY helped me with handling my own thoughts. Perhaps you can use some of the techniques to help her break her downward spiral? Getting her to not ruminate on 'sad stuff', replacing bad with good, etc...
Also, one doctor put me on Lithium. It's VERY effective against suicidal ideation in depressives! I used it for a year, and have now stopped, but boy, it kept me from even THINKING about grabbing a gun when I got sad!
Good luck to you!
posted by Jinx of the 2nd Law at 3:21 PM on September 30, 2009
If she won't go to therapy again, then I agree with the posters above about seeking therapy for yourself.
I also have a reading recommendation - "In Her Wake". It's an examination by a child of a woman who committed suicide of the events surrounding her mother's life and death after she's reached her own adulthood.
The original post is a familiar scenario - familiar enough that I could think of a few people in my life it could have been written by and for. Snooping won't help. If she's that worried you'll snoop, she'll look out of your control (library, public computer, alternative browser).
I was on hormone therapy several times for various ailments - the messing with the hormones often times made things quite quite worse in the realm of suicidal thoughts and idelation. Stopping the hormone whackyness helped end the situation, and I no longer take any sort of hormones and have elected permanent reproductive alternatives. Even when going in for my last procedure, I had to take hormones for a few weeks before hand, and it was a bad few weeks. The only thing that got me through it was knowing ahead of time that the pills would do this to me and that once they were over the silence would come back, a welcome silence of incorrect thoughts and drastic actions.
There are a number of options for pharmaceutical help for her. Not all of them work in the same way for everyone; communication with her healthcare provider is essential.
Speaking from "the other side" - the thoughts can be silenced without nuking the essential "self". But there is no reason to try to fly and land a damaged airliner of passengers with no training and a scarf around your eyes and mufflers blocking your ears.
posted by tilde at 8:41 AM on October 2, 2009
I also have a reading recommendation - "In Her Wake". It's an examination by a child of a woman who committed suicide of the events surrounding her mother's life and death after she's reached her own adulthood.
The original post is a familiar scenario - familiar enough that I could think of a few people in my life it could have been written by and for. Snooping won't help. If she's that worried you'll snoop, she'll look out of your control (library, public computer, alternative browser).
I was on hormone therapy several times for various ailments - the messing with the hormones often times made things quite quite worse in the realm of suicidal thoughts and idelation. Stopping the hormone whackyness helped end the situation, and I no longer take any sort of hormones and have elected permanent reproductive alternatives. Even when going in for my last procedure, I had to take hormones for a few weeks before hand, and it was a bad few weeks. The only thing that got me through it was knowing ahead of time that the pills would do this to me and that once they were over the silence would come back, a welcome silence of incorrect thoughts and drastic actions.
There are a number of options for pharmaceutical help for her. Not all of them work in the same way for everyone; communication with her healthcare provider is essential.
Speaking from "the other side" - the thoughts can be silenced without nuking the essential "self". But there is no reason to try to fly and land a damaged airliner of passengers with no training and a scarf around your eyes and mufflers blocking your ears.
posted by tilde at 8:41 AM on October 2, 2009
I tend to find the knee jerk "seek therapy" responses here to almost every human relations question here tedious most of the time, but in this case, definitely not. You are (with good intentions, no doubt) wasting your time expending energy trying to find a way around this impasse:
The issue is, she has tried therapy and meds (though hasn't invested nearly enough of herself or her time to let them really start to help), and has decided emphatically that she will not pursue that again.I still urge her to do so, but whenever the subject is brought up, she responds with anger and frustration that I'm ignoring what she's already decided on the matter...
And there is no way around this. It sucks, I know. Until she is in therapy and being monitored and most likely on some sort of medication she is at high risk and no amount of monitoring or snooping on your part will fix this. What are you going to do quit your job so you can do this full time? Even then there would be no guarantees. people in this state are unpredictable. You're not qualified for this and the emotional damage it probably already is taking on you is not (as you indicated) sustainable. Get her into therapy at all costs, and I mean ALL costs. Good luck.
posted by the foreground at 1:43 PM on October 2, 2009
The issue is, she has tried therapy and meds (though hasn't invested nearly enough of herself or her time to let them really start to help), and has decided emphatically that she will not pursue that again.I still urge her to do so, but whenever the subject is brought up, she responds with anger and frustration that I'm ignoring what she's already decided on the matter...
And there is no way around this. It sucks, I know. Until she is in therapy and being monitored and most likely on some sort of medication she is at high risk and no amount of monitoring or snooping on your part will fix this. What are you going to do quit your job so you can do this full time? Even then there would be no guarantees. people in this state are unpredictable. You're not qualified for this and the emotional damage it probably already is taking on you is not (as you indicated) sustainable. Get her into therapy at all costs, and I mean ALL costs. Good luck.
posted by the foreground at 1:43 PM on October 2, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
Yes.
If she were to kill herself, after you refused to monitor her internet activity for "ethical" reasons, would you be congratulating yourself on your ethics --- or cursing yourself for having entertained such foolish illusions about what ethics forbids?
posted by jayder at 8:15 PM on September 29, 2009 [2 favorites]