Is my husband unemployable?
September 8, 2009 9:22 AM Subscribe
Is my husband unemployable?
My husband is almost 29 and has been playing poker for a living for the past 7 years, with no other job, business, or source of income. It's been fun to joke about him living off $6 for 7 years, but now he's burnt out and wants to do something else for a living.
Immediate problem: I'm trying to make him his first resume, due tomorrow for a career event at school. I'm great at making resumes but I just don't know what to put on his. We don't want to lie, but initial Googling suggests that putting "professional poker player" on a resume is the kiss of death.
Long-term problem: He knows he doesn't want to play poker for a living anymore, but he's not sure what he wants to do instead, either now for a short-term job or in the future for a long-term career. Probably something quantitative and business-related.
Education: He just returned to college, as a junior, majoring in Accounting. He has an associates degree from before he dropped out of college to play poker. He plans to complete a BSBA of Accounting in 2 years and then either a MS Accounting or MBA Finance. However, it will be obvious that he's much older than the other fresh graduates, so he'll still need to explain what he did in his 20s.
Experience: His pre-poker work experience was with a railroad from age 18 to 21 (started as trainee, advanced to engineer) and in his dad's tire shop from age 14 to 18 (sort of a combination mechanic / cashier / assistant business manager -- he did the bookkeeping, taxes, etc.). So he does have some "normal" work experience but it's quite old.
Preferences, aptitudes, and skills:
- He likes using his brain and would be unhappy if he didn't get to use it at work.
- He's very very very smart, but his intelligence is more mathematical than verbal.
- He's good with people and in stressful situations.
- He's learning Word, Excel, and PowerPoint in one of his classes, but has no experience yet using them in a work context.
- He's great at taking exams. (I mention this because I know that there are some careers you can effectively test into, which is what he did at the railroad, but I don't know what all the possibilities are.)
- He doesn't want to just trade poker for another high-variance job like sales or stock trading -- he wants a career that will provide a stable upper-middle-class income and benefits.
- We live in Las Vegas, which currently has a 13+% unemployment rate. Adding discouraged workers and the underemployed would probably push it over 20%.
So, I guess I have a few questions:
1. What should I put on his resume right now? Any ideas for how to honestly spin his poker experience in a positive way that will prevent his resume from being insta-rejected?
2. Are there any business-related jobs with steady incomes that he'd be able to qualify for now or very soon, before he graduates?
3. What are his long-term career options? Will he ever be able to get a professional job, or will having spent his 20s playing poker be an insurmountable black mark against him even after he finishes school?
4. Are we screwed? Please be blunt with me, especially if you've ever done hiring or screened applicants.
I'd really appreciate the hive-mind's thoughts on those questions or the general situation. Thanks!
My husband is almost 29 and has been playing poker for a living for the past 7 years, with no other job, business, or source of income. It's been fun to joke about him living off $6 for 7 years, but now he's burnt out and wants to do something else for a living.
Immediate problem: I'm trying to make him his first resume, due tomorrow for a career event at school. I'm great at making resumes but I just don't know what to put on his. We don't want to lie, but initial Googling suggests that putting "professional poker player" on a resume is the kiss of death.
Long-term problem: He knows he doesn't want to play poker for a living anymore, but he's not sure what he wants to do instead, either now for a short-term job or in the future for a long-term career. Probably something quantitative and business-related.
Education: He just returned to college, as a junior, majoring in Accounting. He has an associates degree from before he dropped out of college to play poker. He plans to complete a BSBA of Accounting in 2 years and then either a MS Accounting or MBA Finance. However, it will be obvious that he's much older than the other fresh graduates, so he'll still need to explain what he did in his 20s.
Experience: His pre-poker work experience was with a railroad from age 18 to 21 (started as trainee, advanced to engineer) and in his dad's tire shop from age 14 to 18 (sort of a combination mechanic / cashier / assistant business manager -- he did the bookkeeping, taxes, etc.). So he does have some "normal" work experience but it's quite old.
Preferences, aptitudes, and skills:
- He likes using his brain and would be unhappy if he didn't get to use it at work.
- He's very very very smart, but his intelligence is more mathematical than verbal.
- He's good with people and in stressful situations.
- He's learning Word, Excel, and PowerPoint in one of his classes, but has no experience yet using them in a work context.
- He's great at taking exams. (I mention this because I know that there are some careers you can effectively test into, which is what he did at the railroad, but I don't know what all the possibilities are.)
- He doesn't want to just trade poker for another high-variance job like sales or stock trading -- he wants a career that will provide a stable upper-middle-class income and benefits.
- We live in Las Vegas, which currently has a 13+% unemployment rate. Adding discouraged workers and the underemployed would probably push it over 20%.
So, I guess I have a few questions:
1. What should I put on his resume right now? Any ideas for how to honestly spin his poker experience in a positive way that will prevent his resume from being insta-rejected?
2. Are there any business-related jobs with steady incomes that he'd be able to qualify for now or very soon, before he graduates?
3. What are his long-term career options? Will he ever be able to get a professional job, or will having spent his 20s playing poker be an insurmountable black mark against him even after he finishes school?
4. Are we screwed? Please be blunt with me, especially if you've ever done hiring or screened applicants.
I'd really appreciate the hive-mind's thoughts on those questions or the general situation. Thanks!
Professional Poker Player for 6 years is impressive. It will open doors just so that people can meet him and ask about it. Put it on resume. He has decision making skills, risk reward assessment, discipline, math skills, independence and an entrepreneurial attitude. He is employable. I hired a lot of traders in my time and I would hire him. He has a lot going for him. Screwed you are not. INvestment banking or any job that requires an analysis to be performed and the possible outcomes assessed he can do.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:29 AM on September 8, 2009 [9 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:29 AM on September 8, 2009 [9 favorites]
I think your choices are to either put "professional poker player" (with an explanation of the understanding of math, expected value, and discipline involved, and maybe some tournament wins listed) or put down seven years of made-up jobs there. The latter is obviously more unethical and error-prone.
There are certainly going to be hiring managers that just toss the resume out once they see "poker player" there, but I think you can target industries that are more likely to see that as a bonus. A lot of people admire professional poker players and see them as romantic versions of themselves. Admittedly, these people are largely in other high variance professions like stock trading. However, I don't doubt that many management types that are looking to hire an MBA would, either. Actuaries, I imagine, would also relate to poker players.
A lot of software developers respect poker, but your husband would have to first develop programming skills (if he has such an inclination) before getting in the door.
posted by ignignokt at 9:33 AM on September 8, 2009
There are certainly going to be hiring managers that just toss the resume out once they see "poker player" there, but I think you can target industries that are more likely to see that as a bonus. A lot of people admire professional poker players and see them as romantic versions of themselves. Admittedly, these people are largely in other high variance professions like stock trading. However, I don't doubt that many management types that are looking to hire an MBA would, either. Actuaries, I imagine, would also relate to poker players.
A lot of software developers respect poker, but your husband would have to first develop programming skills (if he has such an inclination) before getting in the door.
posted by ignignokt at 9:33 AM on September 8, 2009
I think an important addition to this is going to be his cover letter. That's where he can tell a good story about being a poker player, what he enjoyed, how it makes him smart/competent/qualified/interesting/etc
posted by radioamy at 9:34 AM on September 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by radioamy at 9:34 AM on September 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
Some initial thoughts. I think I would deal with it forthrightly and matter of factly. I am assuming he filed income taxes on his earnings and I assume he had earnings.. I would put 2002-2009 Professional Gambler--average earnings XXXX. If he lost (on average ) he is not a professional gambler--rather--he is an addict which I assume is not the case.
I would not put this resume on line and I would test it with targeted audiences. In the goals ( introductory statement) I would put that I have been a successful professional gambler for 7 years and have reenrolled in school and wish to switch to a profession which can utilize XXXXX skills and talents.
I have reviewed many resumes but this is quite interesting.. It seems to me that the ability to carry this off is related to simply you can treat it as a job, demonstrate earnings. skills and commitment to move on. A seven year absence is a no-no which needs to be dealt with. Leaving 7 years a blank would be an immediate red flag--that is much to long a period to even tray an misleador understate. Plus--a gambler lying would be a kiss of death. Best of Luck
posted by rmhsinc at 9:40 AM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I would not put this resume on line and I would test it with targeted audiences. In the goals ( introductory statement) I would put that I have been a successful professional gambler for 7 years and have reenrolled in school and wish to switch to a profession which can utilize XXXXX skills and talents.
I have reviewed many resumes but this is quite interesting.. It seems to me that the ability to carry this off is related to simply you can treat it as a job, demonstrate earnings. skills and commitment to move on. A seven year absence is a no-no which needs to be dealt with. Leaving 7 years a blank would be an immediate red flag--that is much to long a period to even tray an misleador understate. Plus--a gambler lying would be a kiss of death. Best of Luck
posted by rmhsinc at 9:40 AM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
My feeling is that your husband should apply to other jobs that would be accessible to new graduates in accounting. And list the poker playing thing. For some hiring managers that will probably be enough to take you out of the running, but for others it will probably be enough to get you in the door, as JohnnyGunn says.
posted by grouse at 9:41 AM on September 8, 2009
posted by grouse at 9:41 AM on September 8, 2009
I would think in Vegas being a professional poker player would have less stigma than elsewhere. If I were an employer I would be pretty danged impressed by someone who could make a living playing poker.
posted by ian1977 at 9:42 AM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by ian1977 at 9:42 AM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
A lot of software developers respect poker, but your husband would have to first develop programming skills (if he has such an inclination) before getting in the door.
Yeah, specifically in the programming realm there are a decent percentage of people that at least get into poker as a hobby and understand that professional poker player isn't the same thing as professional gambler. I personally would respect 5+ years playing poker professionally as much as any other job in an unrelated field, because although it's not a traditional environment it does show that he had the skills to get to pro-level play and the persistence to spend that much time grinding as a living. The bottom line in the software field is skills and experience though, so really the poker background would have much less to do with a decision than practical skills.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:43 AM on September 8, 2009
Yeah, specifically in the programming realm there are a decent percentage of people that at least get into poker as a hobby and understand that professional poker player isn't the same thing as professional gambler. I personally would respect 5+ years playing poker professionally as much as any other job in an unrelated field, because although it's not a traditional environment it does show that he had the skills to get to pro-level play and the persistence to spend that much time grinding as a living. The bottom line in the software field is skills and experience though, so really the poker background would have much less to do with a decision than practical skills.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:43 AM on September 8, 2009
You might find that various investment/quantitative trading companies would respect his background in poker. He would probably need to finish his accounting degree, though, just to show that he was capable of standard academic discipline and work habits.
posted by deanc at 9:53 AM on September 8, 2009
posted by deanc at 9:53 AM on September 8, 2009
There's the kind of poker player who squanders their savings over a short period trying to make a living at what should really have been a hobby, and then there are the poker players who make a living at it, in Las Vegas no less, for more than six years running. The first are sad-sack gamblers... the latter sharply analytical and decisive entrepreneurs. That sort of guy is in demand everywhere.
Emphasize his successes, detail the sort of stakes he plays, his average return on those stakes, which games and style of play he prefers, and why. On the cover letter, or in the "Goals" section of the resume, explain he's ready to use his math and decision-making skills to move past the card table to a more conventional career path.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:56 AM on September 8, 2009
Emphasize his successes, detail the sort of stakes he plays, his average return on those stakes, which games and style of play he prefers, and why. On the cover letter, or in the "Goals" section of the resume, explain he's ready to use his math and decision-making skills to move past the card table to a more conventional career path.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:56 AM on September 8, 2009
I think an important addition to this is going to be his cover letter.
I agree. Your husband’s cover letter should do the things that radioamy suggests and should also convey to its reader that your husband chose that occupation (playing poker) because it was more intellectually and financially rewarding than the other opportunities available at that stage of his life. My point here is that many conventionally employed people are going to assume that a professional poker player is just someone who doesn’t want to go to work. Making your husband’s cover letter read in a way that an intelligent decision maker will read it and think “..You know, I’d have done the same thing” will help break this negative presumption.
posted by applemeat at 9:59 AM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I agree. Your husband’s cover letter should do the things that radioamy suggests and should also convey to its reader that your husband chose that occupation (playing poker) because it was more intellectually and financially rewarding than the other opportunities available at that stage of his life. My point here is that many conventionally employed people are going to assume that a professional poker player is just someone who doesn’t want to go to work. Making your husband’s cover letter read in a way that an intelligent decision maker will read it and think “..You know, I’d have done the same thing” will help break this negative presumption.
posted by applemeat at 9:59 AM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
My husband is almost 29 and has been playing poker for a living for the past 7 years, with no other job, business, or source of income.
I'll echo what others have said above, that if I'm developing a poker application, or doing casino games work, I'd like to talk to him. But if he has zero significant other skills (learning Word?), which is sounds like he has at this time, there's nothing significant for him. You asked for blunt? Honestly, I'd start looking for a job at Costco.
We live in Las Vegas
You live in Las Vegas, and he's been playing professional poker for seven years. Does he not have contacts/friends within the casino community that could direct him to gaming jobs and opportunities? That's really your first step.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:00 AM on September 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'll echo what others have said above, that if I'm developing a poker application, or doing casino games work, I'd like to talk to him. But if he has zero significant other skills (learning Word?), which is sounds like he has at this time, there's nothing significant for him. You asked for blunt? Honestly, I'd start looking for a job at Costco.
We live in Las Vegas
You live in Las Vegas, and he's been playing professional poker for seven years. Does he not have contacts/friends within the casino community that could direct him to gaming jobs and opportunities? That's really your first step.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:00 AM on September 8, 2009 [4 favorites]
He's just been self-employed for 7 years, doing his own accounting. And it apparently worked out pretty well if he started with $6. If he did the typical "making a large fortune into a small one"--well, there you'd have a problem.
But to survive that long you have to have a good idea of your financials and cash flow. Assuming he can tell this kind of story, he has a shot. What are the skills he's been successfully demonstrating, and how are those useful to an employer?
I'm not saying at all he shouldn't be upfront with what he was doing. Don't mislead people; you've just got to show them what kind of skills he's obviously been using/perfecting. There will still be people who won't buy it. But if he's got marketable skills, and can convince someone of that fact--that's what gets people hired.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 10:07 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
But to survive that long you have to have a good idea of your financials and cash flow. Assuming he can tell this kind of story, he has a shot. What are the skills he's been successfully demonstrating, and how are those useful to an employer?
I'm not saying at all he shouldn't be upfront with what he was doing. Don't mislead people; you've just got to show them what kind of skills he's obviously been using/perfecting. There will still be people who won't buy it. But if he's got marketable skills, and can convince someone of that fact--that's what gets people hired.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 10:07 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I just re-read this and saw the "learning" MS Office. Please impart on him the necessity of becoming proficient in at least Word and Excel. I would definitely expect this of a recent college grad in a business field.
posted by radioamy at 10:11 AM on September 8, 2009
posted by radioamy at 10:11 AM on September 8, 2009
Wall Street trader -- seriously. worth going back to school for. this is not a jokey comment.
posted by matteo at 10:15 AM on September 8, 2009
posted by matteo at 10:15 AM on September 8, 2009
General thoughts: I spent my early twenties in rock bands, supplementing my income as a waitperson. As a result, I didn't get a "professional" career going until my late twenties, after I finished my bachelor's. So is your husband unemployable? NO, but he may not be able to get the nice cushy office job that uses all his brains and skills until AFTER he has proven that he can jump through the hoops, finish his bachelor's, and do some entry-level crappy office work.
Specific thoughts:
1. What should I put on his resume right now? Any ideas for how to honestly spin his poker experience in a positive way that will prevent his resume from being insta-rejected?
I never put my music-related gigs on my resume, but I can imagine putting "self-employed" as a job title and listing his poker experience below that. I don't think he should list earnings.
3. What are his long-term career options? Will he ever be able to get a professional job, or will having spent his 20s playing poker be an insurmountable black mark against him even after he finishes school?
In 10 years, it won't matter much at all. Between now and then, it will matter some to some people and less to others. It's not an insurmountable black mark, but it's something that may put him at a slight disadvantage relative to other people his age. Time will heal all.
4. Are we screwed? Please be blunt with me, especially if you've ever done hiring or screened applicants.
You're not screwed. A positive attitude, acceptance of what you can and cannot change, and a willingness to make the best of it are what you need now. Good luck!
posted by acridrabbit at 10:26 AM on September 8, 2009
Specific thoughts:
1. What should I put on his resume right now? Any ideas for how to honestly spin his poker experience in a positive way that will prevent his resume from being insta-rejected?
I never put my music-related gigs on my resume, but I can imagine putting "self-employed" as a job title and listing his poker experience below that. I don't think he should list earnings.
3. What are his long-term career options? Will he ever be able to get a professional job, or will having spent his 20s playing poker be an insurmountable black mark against him even after he finishes school?
In 10 years, it won't matter much at all. Between now and then, it will matter some to some people and less to others. It's not an insurmountable black mark, but it's something that may put him at a slight disadvantage relative to other people his age. Time will heal all.
4. Are we screwed? Please be blunt with me, especially if you've ever done hiring or screened applicants.
You're not screwed. A positive attitude, acceptance of what you can and cannot change, and a willingness to make the best of it are what you need now. Good luck!
posted by acridrabbit at 10:26 AM on September 8, 2009
Can you check with Student Services at school to see if they have any employment postings? Getting work through school might be the biggest help to him.
Frankly, while others above have pointed out niches he may find, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he's probably just going to have to start out entry level someplace. The kind of place where you don't need a resume because you can just fill out an application. You can't just not work for 6 years and then assume that you're entitled to the same opportunities as others who have been in the workforce. Like anyone else, your husband is going to have to build his professional image from the ground up. Finishing his degree is going to compensate for a lot, but in the meantime he'll probably have to spend some time proving he has a desire to work at all, at anything.
posted by hermitosis at 10:47 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Frankly, while others above have pointed out niches he may find, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he's probably just going to have to start out entry level someplace. The kind of place where you don't need a resume because you can just fill out an application. You can't just not work for 6 years and then assume that you're entitled to the same opportunities as others who have been in the workforce. Like anyone else, your husband is going to have to build his professional image from the ground up. Finishing his degree is going to compensate for a lot, but in the meantime he'll probably have to spend some time proving he has a desire to work at all, at anything.
posted by hermitosis at 10:47 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
He might consider an actuarial career. If he has the probability chops to be a successful poker pro, he has the probability chops for that. Or pretty much any math-intensive career...
posted by paultopia at 10:56 AM on September 8, 2009
posted by paultopia at 10:56 AM on September 8, 2009
If he is interested in finance (especially quantitative trading), I would recommend reading The Poker Face of Wall Street by Aaron Brown. Definitely tnos of synergies there.
posted by gushn at 11:18 AM on September 8, 2009
posted by gushn at 11:18 AM on September 8, 2009
I would suggest the financial services industry, except that I find much of what they do to be parasitic and disreputable in a way that Las Vegas, despite its past in organized crime and its current slick corporate incarnation, can only dream off.
Assuming that your guy was actually making a living off his winnings, then he's doubtless got a good handle on probability and probably some practical insights into human psychology. Really, the career path he seems to have chosen going forward seems like a reasonable one given his background, but why has he chosen it? There are certainly lots of different next steps he could take, depending on his interests, like learning stats (a good job market, as I understand it), or some other area of applied math.
As for putting it on his resume, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets him dismissed from consideration for some positions, I'm just as sure that it will get him a first, second, and maybe third look for positions that otherwise would have gone to someone with a degree from a top-five school in whatever field he's interested in. I suspect though that it will carry more cachet outside of Nevada. Still, it explains his 20s, so it should go on his resume. A friend of mine decided in his early 30s to get a second bachelors in computer science. He got into the University of Washington, a competitive CS program that only takes one or two non traditional students into the undergrad program. The most likely reason he stood out was that he spent his middle 20s in a band that received a decent amount of national attention.
I certainly don't think he'll be any worse off than any other college junior, which I realize isn't that encouraging now, but its a long way from the worse case scenario you seem to be worrying about. Like any other college junior, he should be trying to line up "real world" experience in his chosen field: Summer jobs or internships, work on professors projects, etc. That, and just generally studying hard and working on developing transferrable real world skills. For good or ill, knowing Excel is important, and it really wouldn't hurt to pick up some basic programming and database skills
posted by Good Brain at 11:20 AM on September 8, 2009
Assuming that your guy was actually making a living off his winnings, then he's doubtless got a good handle on probability and probably some practical insights into human psychology. Really, the career path he seems to have chosen going forward seems like a reasonable one given his background, but why has he chosen it? There are certainly lots of different next steps he could take, depending on his interests, like learning stats (a good job market, as I understand it), or some other area of applied math.
As for putting it on his resume, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets him dismissed from consideration for some positions, I'm just as sure that it will get him a first, second, and maybe third look for positions that otherwise would have gone to someone with a degree from a top-five school in whatever field he's interested in. I suspect though that it will carry more cachet outside of Nevada. Still, it explains his 20s, so it should go on his resume. A friend of mine decided in his early 30s to get a second bachelors in computer science. He got into the University of Washington, a competitive CS program that only takes one or two non traditional students into the undergrad program. The most likely reason he stood out was that he spent his middle 20s in a band that received a decent amount of national attention.
I certainly don't think he'll be any worse off than any other college junior, which I realize isn't that encouraging now, but its a long way from the worse case scenario you seem to be worrying about. Like any other college junior, he should be trying to line up "real world" experience in his chosen field: Summer jobs or internships, work on professors projects, etc. That, and just generally studying hard and working on developing transferrable real world skills. For good or ill, knowing Excel is important, and it really wouldn't hurt to pick up some basic programming and database skills
posted by Good Brain at 11:20 AM on September 8, 2009
We live in Las Vegas...
I think this offsets any "kiss of death" you need to worry about.
posted by rokusan at 11:28 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think this offsets any "kiss of death" you need to worry about.
posted by rokusan at 11:28 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I assume if he is a professional poker player, he is often playing against rich civilians who enjoy playing poker. And that he's probably meeting new ones every day.
And I assume he's capable of talking while playing.
Forget resumes. What he needs to do is bring up in every poker game, once he's got to know people, that he's looking to change careers. Anyone got any leads?
Unless he's trying to hustle people, it won't matter that they find out that he does this for a living. And poker players will appreciate just how hard it is to make a living playing poker. And some of them may well have an idea of what he could do that would leverage his oddsmaking and people-reading skills.
posted by musofire at 11:42 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
And I assume he's capable of talking while playing.
Forget resumes. What he needs to do is bring up in every poker game, once he's got to know people, that he's looking to change careers. Anyone got any leads?
Unless he's trying to hustle people, it won't matter that they find out that he does this for a living. And poker players will appreciate just how hard it is to make a living playing poker. And some of them may well have an idea of what he could do that would leverage his oddsmaking and people-reading skills.
posted by musofire at 11:42 AM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for the great advice and ideas so far. To those just finding this question, please keep it coming!
To clarify a few things people have asked about:
He plays cash games almost exclusively, so he has no tournament record of note.
He really is a winning player, and he really did start with only $6, no savings. He didn't set out to become a pro with $6 -- he was just a typical broke college student and sat in on a game at a friend's house with his last $6, expecting to lose it and have to go get a job the next day. Instead he won a bunch of money and realized that he understood card games and probability a lot better than his opponents and that he could find games like that on campus any night of the week. So he did. He hasn't had a job since nor been supported by anyone else -- he was on his own before me, and since we've been together his annual income from poker has always been greater than my annual income from employment.
However, it’s just been a comfortable middle-class income – not enough to retire young or live off savings for very long. Poker winnings are partially a function of bankroll size, so starting with only $6, not playing high-variance tournaments, and having to withdraw money for living expenses every month doesn't offer a lot of opportunity to build up the big bankroll to win the big bucks. He's not comfortable playing on other people's money, either.
He does have a lot of contacts who work in the local poker rooms but right now we’re having an econopocalypse in Las Vegas and even experienced dealers can't find jobs. Also, that environment is part of the reason he's burnt out. If he’s going to sit in a poker room all day (which he doesn’t want to do anymore), he’d average more per hour as a player than a dealer, so that’s not a good way out.
I'm glad to hear that his experience might be appreciated by finance employers, because his interests seem to be leaning that way. Not sure what he can do in the short-term, though.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:59 AM on September 8, 2009
To clarify a few things people have asked about:
He plays cash games almost exclusively, so he has no tournament record of note.
He really is a winning player, and he really did start with only $6, no savings. He didn't set out to become a pro with $6 -- he was just a typical broke college student and sat in on a game at a friend's house with his last $6, expecting to lose it and have to go get a job the next day. Instead he won a bunch of money and realized that he understood card games and probability a lot better than his opponents and that he could find games like that on campus any night of the week. So he did. He hasn't had a job since nor been supported by anyone else -- he was on his own before me, and since we've been together his annual income from poker has always been greater than my annual income from employment.
However, it’s just been a comfortable middle-class income – not enough to retire young or live off savings for very long. Poker winnings are partially a function of bankroll size, so starting with only $6, not playing high-variance tournaments, and having to withdraw money for living expenses every month doesn't offer a lot of opportunity to build up the big bankroll to win the big bucks. He's not comfortable playing on other people's money, either.
He does have a lot of contacts who work in the local poker rooms but right now we’re having an econopocalypse in Las Vegas and even experienced dealers can't find jobs. Also, that environment is part of the reason he's burnt out. If he’s going to sit in a poker room all day (which he doesn’t want to do anymore), he’d average more per hour as a player than a dealer, so that’s not a good way out.
I'm glad to hear that his experience might be appreciated by finance employers, because his interests seem to be leaning that way. Not sure what he can do in the short-term, though.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:59 AM on September 8, 2009
I'm a very serious amateur poker player, who has been lucky enough make more money playing poker than most people do in their real job, so my perspective might be a bit skewed. It does make me a bit sad, because I've had this conversation with so many young guys over the past 5-10 years when they were considering going pro and advising them about this end state. Knowing many, many people in your husband's shoes (perhaps even knowing your husband!) -- I feel that many of our smartest young people made the same decisions as he did. It was very tempting seven years ago when you could make better money in your dorm room than most graduates did when they got out and a lot of people I know are on similar trajectories. I remain optimistic about their long-term prospects, but I think they are in for some tough times in the near term.
I think that his decision to go back to school and complete his degree is laudable and probably the best thing he could have done. It might be awkward from time to time to be older and he will clearly need to be candid about his situation when he graduates, but I don't think it will be a tremendous hurdle. I hire many fresh-out-of-school graduates and I actually prefer ones who are a bit older and have had some life experiences. I'm in the tech field, where we are probably a bit less stuffy than finance folks. Properly managed, I think it creates an interesting opportunity to say something about himself and engage a prospective employer. I'm pretty sure "Professional Poker Player" will look a lot better than "Professional Gambler" in terms of the social stigma. It will probably knock him out of contention for some jobs, but there is a pretty good chance he wouldn't have liked those employers anyhow.
However, I think the picture looks fairly bleak in the short run. The employment outlook is poor for people with strong resumes and backgrounds and right now as a student with virtually no work history I would think he is not in a great position. I think he is going to have to take some fairly low paying "student" work while he grinds it out through school looking for a better long run.
posted by Lame_username at 12:06 PM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think that his decision to go back to school and complete his degree is laudable and probably the best thing he could have done. It might be awkward from time to time to be older and he will clearly need to be candid about his situation when he graduates, but I don't think it will be a tremendous hurdle. I hire many fresh-out-of-school graduates and I actually prefer ones who are a bit older and have had some life experiences. I'm in the tech field, where we are probably a bit less stuffy than finance folks. Properly managed, I think it creates an interesting opportunity to say something about himself and engage a prospective employer. I'm pretty sure "Professional Poker Player" will look a lot better than "Professional Gambler" in terms of the social stigma. It will probably knock him out of contention for some jobs, but there is a pretty good chance he wouldn't have liked those employers anyhow.
However, I think the picture looks fairly bleak in the short run. The employment outlook is poor for people with strong resumes and backgrounds and right now as a student with virtually no work history I would think he is not in a great position. I think he is going to have to take some fairly low paying "student" work while he grinds it out through school looking for a better long run.
posted by Lame_username at 12:06 PM on September 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Also, I would really love more specific suggestions for wording to describe his poker experience and transferable skills. I don't think that "Can keep my cool despite donkeys repeatedly sucking out on me with one-outers" would parse well with most hiring managers. :)
posted by Jacqueline at 12:06 PM on September 8, 2009
posted by Jacqueline at 12:06 PM on September 8, 2009
There's a niche market for people who can write about the poker world from an intimate setting, and there are some niche small publishing houses that would not consider such experience a drawback... even for a certified accountant. Magazines, books, these are mid-list but always steady. I doubt the poker experience would hurt him for the right employer and I think if the man is good with numbers in all sorts of capacities, then that's got to be a plus.
posted by eatdonuts at 12:09 PM on September 8, 2009
posted by eatdonuts at 12:09 PM on September 8, 2009
He really is a winning player, and he really did start with only $6, no savings. He didn't set out to become a pro with $6 -- he was just a typical broke college student and sat in on a game at a friend's house with his last $6, expecting to lose it and have to go get a job the next day. Instead he won a bunch of money and realized that he understood card games and probability a lot better than his opponents and that he could find games like that on campus any night of the week. So he did. He hasn't had a job since nor been supported by anyone else -- he was on his own before me, and since we've been together his annual income from poker has always been greater than my annual income from employment.
Tweak that a bit, and put it in the cover letter. Use acridrabbit's advice about the resume entry. He needs to finish his degree. You guys will be fine. (former hiring mgr here).
posted by txvtchick at 12:15 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Tweak that a bit, and put it in the cover letter. Use acridrabbit's advice about the resume entry. He needs to finish his degree. You guys will be fine. (former hiring mgr here).
posted by txvtchick at 12:15 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Another thing to think about is volunteer work, which would give him some references while he's still depending on the poker for his primary income. Small non-profits very often need bookkeeping help.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:21 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:21 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I would really love more specific suggestions for wording to describe his poker experience and transferable skills.I think he would need to focus on the mathematical aspects of poker. "Applied Optimal f formula to calculate bankroll requirements and risk of ruin, using expected return and standard deviation to ensure consistent income despite wildly fluctuating revenue streams." "Utilized probability theory and expected value calculation in real time to maximize income" "Maintained professional attitude and demeanor in extremely high stress situations"
Risk of ruin and expected value and all of the math of poker is essentially the exact same terminology used in trading, especially options and forex type trades. This is because they are essentially the same exact activity, but don't tell anyone I said so.
He should also emphasize things that make it more clear he treated it as a more or less normal job, particularly those aspects that emphasize discipline and meticulous record keeping and less things that make it seem like reckless risk taking. The dirty secret for most of us is that the idea of "tells" and elaborate bluffs and fearless bravado than many imagine poker is made up of is mostly a myth. It is mostly about getting your money in good and withstanding the ebb and flow of those annoying two out suckouts.
posted by Lame_username at 12:29 PM on September 8, 2009
Obviously the success of what I suggest will depend largely on where you live, but he'd certainly make a fine casino employee, in some fashion.
posted by davejay at 1:36 PM on September 8, 2009
posted by davejay at 1:36 PM on September 8, 2009
Will he ever be able to get a professional job, or will having spent his 20s playing poker be an insurmountable black mark against him even after he finishes school?
I used to temp at the Harvard Business School, and one of the professors I worked for was very proud of his former career as a professional poker player. So: no, not necessarily a black mark.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2009
I used to temp at the Harvard Business School, and one of the professors I worked for was very proud of his former career as a professional poker player. So: no, not necessarily a black mark.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2009
2002 - 2009 Applied Probability Consultant
Consulted for a private investment group targeted at the gaming industry. Performed real-time numerical simulations of certificate permutations; calculated short- and long-term rates of investment return; designed venture strategies to optimize asset allocation. Responsible for day-to-day management of the investment operations team.
posted by Wet Spot at 3:01 PM on September 8, 2009 [7 favorites]
Consulted for a private investment group targeted at the gaming industry. Performed real-time numerical simulations of certificate permutations; calculated short- and long-term rates of investment return; designed venture strategies to optimize asset allocation. Responsible for day-to-day management of the investment operations team.
posted by Wet Spot at 3:01 PM on September 8, 2009 [7 favorites]
One of my best friends has been playing poker for about that same amount of time and, coincidentally, he's about to turn 30 as well, and is thinking about a real career.
Unlike your husband, he finished his undergraduate degree in 2002, so has that to fall back on. Finishing that should be the first order of business.
His move is to get a graduate degree in economics and eventually teach in college. He's certainly smart enough to do it, and is planning on playing poker until (and possibly during) being in school towards that end. I think that style is probably your husband's best bet; get an advanced degree in something and do that. For med school, just nail the MCATs (nothing else really matters; he may have to catch up on pre-med stuff first). For law, just nail the LSATs (for those he could probably just study some and take some practice tests and do reasonably well if he's a good test taker). Business school is going to be a little harder since they generally prize work experience, but still doable.
posted by kryptonik at 6:25 PM on September 8, 2009
Unlike your husband, he finished his undergraduate degree in 2002, so has that to fall back on. Finishing that should be the first order of business.
His move is to get a graduate degree in economics and eventually teach in college. He's certainly smart enough to do it, and is planning on playing poker until (and possibly during) being in school towards that end. I think that style is probably your husband's best bet; get an advanced degree in something and do that. For med school, just nail the MCATs (nothing else really matters; he may have to catch up on pre-med stuff first). For law, just nail the LSATs (for those he could probably just study some and take some practice tests and do reasonably well if he's a good test taker). Business school is going to be a little harder since they generally prize work experience, but still doable.
posted by kryptonik at 6:25 PM on September 8, 2009
To be totally blunt, if I were the one hiring, I wouldn't give his application a second glance unless there was some concrete evidence that (a) he was absolutely ethically beyond reproach and (b) still financially solvent. And probably (c) had a track record of recent good performance as an employee...elsewhere.
I understand that pro poker players aren't the sad-sack loser gamblers, but really, if someone has made their living doing something essentially selfish, marginally socially acceptible, playing the odds and bluffing other people out of their money...why exactly would I want them in my employ?
I understand that what he's been doing requires a certain set of mathematical, analytical, and interpersonal skills, yadda yadda yadda. That he'd put his talents to use for essentially his entire 20s playing a game is frankly pretty pathetic and doesn't reflect well on his willingness to accept adult responsibility. I think he's going to find that he's got a lot of proving to do before that neat backstory is going to start working in his favor.
posted by Sublimity at 6:30 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I understand that pro poker players aren't the sad-sack loser gamblers, but really, if someone has made their living doing something essentially selfish, marginally socially acceptible, playing the odds and bluffing other people out of their money...why exactly would I want them in my employ?
I understand that what he's been doing requires a certain set of mathematical, analytical, and interpersonal skills, yadda yadda yadda. That he'd put his talents to use for essentially his entire 20s playing a game is frankly pretty pathetic and doesn't reflect well on his willingness to accept adult responsibility. I think he's going to find that he's got a lot of proving to do before that neat backstory is going to start working in his favor.
posted by Sublimity at 6:30 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Wow, good poker player = good at probability = he's going to be awesome in statistics, which is definitely a growing field. He should switch from accounting to stats, and learn any of the stats packages -- SAS and R come to mind. He should be pretty employable with SAS knowledge, especially in pharma. If he goes to a research university, he should also see if any of the stats professors need research assistants, so not only can he learn a really great marketable skill (SAS, or some other program), he can get paid while learning! By the way R is free to download, so he should check out the website and see if it is interesting to him at all.
posted by booksandwine at 7:39 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by booksandwine at 7:39 PM on September 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
By the way, Chris "Jesus" Ferguson is/was a trader for Bright Trading. See also this article. It is about Blackjack players and trading.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:35 PM on September 8, 2009
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:35 PM on September 8, 2009
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How did he put his winnings, if any, to use?
There's a story there, and a rather interesting one, assuming your husband played professional poker at its highest levels.
I suspect you are correct that some employers would look askance at someone who has played poker professionally, however, it does take a certain amount of intelligence and focus to be able to play it professionally for an extended period of time.
You need to figure out how to cast that experience in a positive light. You will inevitably run into those who will judge your husband because of personal objections to gambling. Your husband will need to learn to ignore those people and focus on those who can appreciate that the skills and characteristics he brings to the poker table are pertinent to other pursuits.
posted by dfriedman at 9:27 AM on September 8, 2009 [3 favorites]