Break it off? Give me something more than DTMF.
August 6, 2009 1:25 PM Subscribe
I'm engaged but having relationship problems. Time to call it quits?
Ok, so I'll try to make this as brief as possible, because I know nobody likes reading long-winded relationship entries. Also, I'm looking for more thoughtful replies than a simple "DTMF". Also keeping it somewhat vague because she reads MF from time to time. If you have any questions, feel free to ask, and I will try to reply anonymously.
Long story short, met my now-fiancee a couple years ago on the west coast. I was living there temporarily for a few months during a break from school, she had just moved on a whim with a plan to stay there possibly permanently. We're both originally east coasters.
Things went swimmingly, we have so much in common, every weekend together on the west coast was amazing (camping, road trips, parties...) etc etc. I moved back east a few months into the relationship to finish grad school. We attempted a long distance relationship, but missed each other so much that she moved back east after only 2 months apart. We got a small studio apt together and lived in my school's city for a year and a half. She worked a telecommute job from home, I was in school.
During this time we made big plans to move into the country on some old family land of mine, build our own house, etc. She seemed into it (we're both environmentally minded) at the time. I proposed to her on the land about 20 months into the relationship. We were saving money together (for the house), bought a new car together, everything.
The whole time we were living together back east, she didn't go out much to make friends. I had friends through school, and we had a few mutual friends, but she only had one or two friends of her own. I didn't think too much of it since neither one of us liked the east coast city, and it was only a temporary situation anyway (moving when grad school done). More often than not she was irritable from work issues, which led to some minor problems in our relationship. Basically, she has not been a fun person to be with for the past year or so (not all the time, but enough to matter). She took ownership of this and started going to therapy, but it didn't seem to help.
Well, we moved when I finished school, and she said that all she needed was a new place to live, somewhere bigger than our studio apartment, with a back yard, to regain her happiness. Well we moved to a place 3x bigger, and with a backyard, and she is still miserable. Then it turns out that she was apparently really nervous about moving to the land and building the house (it is in quite a rural location) and said she was unhappy about that. So I offered to move back to the west coast city where we met. She was initially excited about the possibility but we continued to have issues.
She also seems to be very indecisive about things. She was really into yoga when we first met, talked about getting certified as an instructor, made plans to go to abroad for a month to take a certification course. I was really supportive and happy for her, thinking this might be what she needs. Then she just quit going to yoga class, canceled all plans for the certification, and never really said anything about it again. I don't know if this means anything, but I thought I'd mention it as a possible personality insight.
Our issues aren't anything huge... we don't really fight, or anything crazy. It basically boils down to her being an anxious person, not able to socialize well, and not being able to make up her mind about what she wants. She also has some sort of inferiority complex, and gets upset when I hang out with other girls (longtime friends). And she has some sex issues (as in, she doesn't get anything from it [never has from any of her past boyfriends/encounters], so we don't do it much... and I know from past experience that I'm good in bed).
Honestly, I just feel like she is dragging me down, and no matter what compromises I make, she is still unhappy.
I'm generally a happy person, and I think most of my friends would describe me as one of the nicest, most carefree, genuine people they have ever met. When I met her, we were both carefree and happy. But I'm starting to think that what she was then (in the west coast city where we met) was a complete fraud. I think she was trying to get away from her past on the east coast (emotional baggage), to reinvent herself thousands of miles from home, and this new persona is what I fell in love with -- but it's not who she really is, and she has not let go of her baggage.
We started going to couples therapy a few weeks ago, but it doesn't seem to be working. I'm not a complete angel by any means, but I am a nice, caring guy... maybe to a fault?
I feel partly like a fool for falling for what she pretended to be, and not able to see through it all. Have I been kidding myself for the past year and a half, thinking that she wasn't the problem (i.e. it was that we were living in a crappy city, in a small apt, etc) ???
Metafilter, what do I do? I feel like I have invested so much time and energy into this relationship that it is hard to let go. I love her parents, she loves mine. Despite everything, we have many great memories together. I can totally imagine myself with her long term IF she was the person I met on the west coast. But I cannot deal with her deep anxiety and emotional issues.
I also feel that, now that I'm 31 (fyi, she is 30) I will be seen as somewhat of a failure (mainly by my parents) if I break off the engagement. For all they know, she is a happy, nice person since they never see the other side. What do I tell my family if I break it off?
Last but not least, is there any possibility of breaking it off and still remaining friends? I still like her (a lot) as a person, I just don't think we are compatible in a relationship.
Help???
Ok, so I'll try to make this as brief as possible, because I know nobody likes reading long-winded relationship entries. Also, I'm looking for more thoughtful replies than a simple "DTMF". Also keeping it somewhat vague because she reads MF from time to time. If you have any questions, feel free to ask, and I will try to reply anonymously.
Long story short, met my now-fiancee a couple years ago on the west coast. I was living there temporarily for a few months during a break from school, she had just moved on a whim with a plan to stay there possibly permanently. We're both originally east coasters.
Things went swimmingly, we have so much in common, every weekend together on the west coast was amazing (camping, road trips, parties...) etc etc. I moved back east a few months into the relationship to finish grad school. We attempted a long distance relationship, but missed each other so much that she moved back east after only 2 months apart. We got a small studio apt together and lived in my school's city for a year and a half. She worked a telecommute job from home, I was in school.
During this time we made big plans to move into the country on some old family land of mine, build our own house, etc. She seemed into it (we're both environmentally minded) at the time. I proposed to her on the land about 20 months into the relationship. We were saving money together (for the house), bought a new car together, everything.
The whole time we were living together back east, she didn't go out much to make friends. I had friends through school, and we had a few mutual friends, but she only had one or two friends of her own. I didn't think too much of it since neither one of us liked the east coast city, and it was only a temporary situation anyway (moving when grad school done). More often than not she was irritable from work issues, which led to some minor problems in our relationship. Basically, she has not been a fun person to be with for the past year or so (not all the time, but enough to matter). She took ownership of this and started going to therapy, but it didn't seem to help.
Well, we moved when I finished school, and she said that all she needed was a new place to live, somewhere bigger than our studio apartment, with a back yard, to regain her happiness. Well we moved to a place 3x bigger, and with a backyard, and she is still miserable. Then it turns out that she was apparently really nervous about moving to the land and building the house (it is in quite a rural location) and said she was unhappy about that. So I offered to move back to the west coast city where we met. She was initially excited about the possibility but we continued to have issues.
She also seems to be very indecisive about things. She was really into yoga when we first met, talked about getting certified as an instructor, made plans to go to abroad for a month to take a certification course. I was really supportive and happy for her, thinking this might be what she needs. Then she just quit going to yoga class, canceled all plans for the certification, and never really said anything about it again. I don't know if this means anything, but I thought I'd mention it as a possible personality insight.
Our issues aren't anything huge... we don't really fight, or anything crazy. It basically boils down to her being an anxious person, not able to socialize well, and not being able to make up her mind about what she wants. She also has some sort of inferiority complex, and gets upset when I hang out with other girls (longtime friends). And she has some sex issues (as in, she doesn't get anything from it [never has from any of her past boyfriends/encounters], so we don't do it much... and I know from past experience that I'm good in bed).
Honestly, I just feel like she is dragging me down, and no matter what compromises I make, she is still unhappy.
I'm generally a happy person, and I think most of my friends would describe me as one of the nicest, most carefree, genuine people they have ever met. When I met her, we were both carefree and happy. But I'm starting to think that what she was then (in the west coast city where we met) was a complete fraud. I think she was trying to get away from her past on the east coast (emotional baggage), to reinvent herself thousands of miles from home, and this new persona is what I fell in love with -- but it's not who she really is, and she has not let go of her baggage.
We started going to couples therapy a few weeks ago, but it doesn't seem to be working. I'm not a complete angel by any means, but I am a nice, caring guy... maybe to a fault?
I feel partly like a fool for falling for what she pretended to be, and not able to see through it all. Have I been kidding myself for the past year and a half, thinking that she wasn't the problem (i.e. it was that we were living in a crappy city, in a small apt, etc) ???
Metafilter, what do I do? I feel like I have invested so much time and energy into this relationship that it is hard to let go. I love her parents, she loves mine. Despite everything, we have many great memories together. I can totally imagine myself with her long term IF she was the person I met on the west coast. But I cannot deal with her deep anxiety and emotional issues.
I also feel that, now that I'm 31 (fyi, she is 30) I will be seen as somewhat of a failure (mainly by my parents) if I break off the engagement. For all they know, she is a happy, nice person since they never see the other side. What do I tell my family if I break it off?
Last but not least, is there any possibility of breaking it off and still remaining friends? I still like her (a lot) as a person, I just don't think we are compatible in a relationship.
Help???
I mean, it kind of sounds like you don't really want to be with her anymore. It sounds like you changed a, b, and c, and compromised or were willing to compromise on d, e, and f, and you're kind of at the end of the rope, and she hasn't done anything to meet you halfway.
It sounds like you're mainly emotionally attached to her, but when you consider the fact that you can't really lean on her for support (you've got to be functioning as her nurse, I'm guessing) and that your sex life has got to be pretty unfulfilling...
It sounds like you're asking, Metafilter, what do I want? And I think what you want is to end the relationship. There isn't much of an argument in your text for staying, you don't mention her being smart, or attractive, or funny, or inspirational...and maybe she is those things, but they're outweighed at this point by the negatives.
As far as what to tell people, and whether you can remain friends: you tell people it just didn't feel right anymore, and you do your best to be friends with her. The odds are very good that it would be kinder not to be friends with her, and if that's the case, don't try. It's a selfish pursuit (most of us have done it at one time or another) to try to keep the person we've broken up with in our pocket for a while, because we're sad and lonely and guilty, but it's really a kindness to let go in most cases.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 1:39 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I can't say whether or not you should break it off, but as for feeling like a failure, don't. Whether or not your parents or you feel like you'll be a failure is a lousy reason to decide to marry someone you would otherwise leave. Even if it's emotionally true, it's still not a good enough reason no to do what you decide to do (if your decision is to go).
Play it counterfactually: You never wanted to marry this person, but you stayed with her for the rest of your life because you wanted to avoid your parent's disapproval? Your own feelings of not living up to some standard? Which makes you more of a failure: Breaking off an engagement or getting a divorce years down the road when you knew you shouldn't marry her in the first place?
posted by fatbird at 1:39 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Play it counterfactually: You never wanted to marry this person, but you stayed with her for the rest of your life because you wanted to avoid your parent's disapproval? Your own feelings of not living up to some standard? Which makes you more of a failure: Breaking off an engagement or getting a divorce years down the road when you knew you shouldn't marry her in the first place?
posted by fatbird at 1:39 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
It sounds like she is struggling with some anxiety and depression issues. It's hard to be decisive when those are rearing their ugly heads. I really don't think who she was when you first met is a lie or not part of who she really is. She's all these things, and either you love and want to be with all of her, or she's not the partner for you. There seems like there has been a lot of change in a rather short period of time, and you cannot underestimate the impact on that. Sometimes it takes a while for things to settle before you can find your footing again.
From the tone of this post, it seems like you may have already made up your mind to end this, and you are looking for permission to do so, but in gentler terms than the "DTMFA" crowd. She doesn't sound like a bad person, nor does it sounds like you have a bad relationship. Things could be better, but this could just be a rough patch. You're not a bad person if this isn't the relationship you want, but jumping to the conclusion that she fabricated a personality to snag you seems harsh and inaccurate. If you want to walk away, then do so, but if you're interested in working things out then try to be more understanding of what she's going through and see if with a little more constancy and stability, she starts exhibiting those traits that made you first fall in love with her.
posted by katemcd at 1:43 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
From the tone of this post, it seems like you may have already made up your mind to end this, and you are looking for permission to do so, but in gentler terms than the "DTMFA" crowd. She doesn't sound like a bad person, nor does it sounds like you have a bad relationship. Things could be better, but this could just be a rough patch. You're not a bad person if this isn't the relationship you want, but jumping to the conclusion that she fabricated a personality to snag you seems harsh and inaccurate. If you want to walk away, then do so, but if you're interested in working things out then try to be more understanding of what she's going through and see if with a little more constancy and stability, she starts exhibiting those traits that made you first fall in love with her.
posted by katemcd at 1:43 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
The way you describe her sounds to me like pretty classic symptoms of moderate depression. Stress can lead to depression and, even though the changes in her life have been pretty much all good, even GOOD change is stressful. And there's been a LOT of change in the past couple years for both of you -- moving to new cities, getting new jobs, living with new people (one another). It's a lot. Some people -- the stress creates depression. Not depression "about" anything. Just a generalized mood disorder.
Therapy alone is unlikely to solve this problem for her. IMHO (IANAD), she needs to visit a psychiatrist who can prescribe antidepressants that will work for her. (I'd avoid an internal medicine or family practice person -- she should go to an expert.) Combine the antidepressants with some cognitive behavioral therapy and I think you'll both be pleased with how much better she'll feel about life in general.
I say, encourage her to get to a shrink for antidepressants and have her find a therapist who does CBT. In six months time you will probably be looking at a much happier person who is more engaged with life and less anxious.
posted by rhartong at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
Therapy alone is unlikely to solve this problem for her. IMHO (IANAD), she needs to visit a psychiatrist who can prescribe antidepressants that will work for her. (I'd avoid an internal medicine or family practice person -- she should go to an expert.) Combine the antidepressants with some cognitive behavioral therapy and I think you'll both be pleased with how much better she'll feel about life in general.
I say, encourage her to get to a shrink for antidepressants and have her find a therapist who does CBT. In six months time you will probably be looking at a much happier person who is more engaged with life and less anxious.
posted by rhartong at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't look at it as her having pretended to be someone she's not; people grow and change. I think "fraud" is an extremely strong word and is almost certainly unfair - do you think she set out to deceive you? Why? I also wouldn't look at it as "she's the problem." Your circumstances aren't the problem either. You have two fundamentally different temperaments. This will almost definitely never change, unless she's clinically depressed or something and is helped by medication. You should assume it won't change. Couples therapy may improve communication between you two, but it's not fundamentally going to change her into a different person.
I'm not a complete angel by any means, but I am a nice, caring guy... maybe to a fault?
Really? You certainly paint yourself as quite the victim here.
What do I tell my family if I break it off?
You tell them that you are an adult, you're doing what you think will make you happy in the long run, and you ask them for their support. The end. They can bitch about it all they like. You don't have to listen to any of it.
posted by desjardins at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2009 [5 favorites]
I'm not a complete angel by any means, but I am a nice, caring guy... maybe to a fault?
Really? You certainly paint yourself as quite the victim here.
What do I tell my family if I break it off?
You tell them that you are an adult, you're doing what you think will make you happy in the long run, and you ask them for their support. The end. They can bitch about it all they like. You don't have to listen to any of it.
posted by desjardins at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2009 [5 favorites]
I will only remark on one notion expressed by the post.
You say you have invested so much and don't want it wasted, thrown away. I had been married for some 21 years. the marriage not a good one,. I finally got a divorce. I asked my friend and lawyer why I waited so long, what took me all that time. He said in relationships and especially marriage, you leave only when you are truly ready and not by some time set by others.
Cutting your losses, if that is how it is to be, is saving something rather than piling up more of what is troublesome.
posted by Postroad at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2009
You say you have invested so much and don't want it wasted, thrown away. I had been married for some 21 years. the marriage not a good one,. I finally got a divorce. I asked my friend and lawyer why I waited so long, what took me all that time. He said in relationships and especially marriage, you leave only when you are truly ready and not by some time set by others.
Cutting your losses, if that is how it is to be, is saving something rather than piling up more of what is troublesome.
posted by Postroad at 1:45 PM on August 6, 2009
But I'm starting to think that what she was then (in the west coast city where we met) was a complete fraud
Is it possible that this was more about the first flushes of a relationship - everything seems great, everyone is happy, everything is fun - rather than her actively trying to be someone else or defraud you/herself/others.
I see echoes of myself in how you describe her - insecure, indecisive, anti-social. I think it's partially the way I am, and partially because I'm not really 100% happy in my own relationship. Maybe she wants to break it off too.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 1:47 PM on August 6, 2009
Is it possible that this was more about the first flushes of a relationship - everything seems great, everyone is happy, everything is fun - rather than her actively trying to be someone else or defraud you/herself/others.
I see echoes of myself in how you describe her - insecure, indecisive, anti-social. I think it's partially the way I am, and partially because I'm not really 100% happy in my own relationship. Maybe she wants to break it off too.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 1:47 PM on August 6, 2009
And there's been a LOT of change in the past couple years for both of you -- moving to new cities, getting new jobs, living with new people (one another). It's a lot. Some people -- the stress creates depression. Not depression "about" anything. Just a generalized mood disorder
Good point. I have an anxiety disorder, and my husband and I have moved 3 times in the past 4 years. It's been incredibly stressful for me, whereas he tends to take it in stride due to his different temperament. He doesn't understand why I cry and miss the old place, why it's so difficult for me to pack and unpack. Instability creates anxiety, anxiety creates depression. Rereading your post, it's not difficult at all to see why she would be stressed out after all that moving around - even if she initiated it.
posted by desjardins at 1:51 PM on August 6, 2009
Good point. I have an anxiety disorder, and my husband and I have moved 3 times in the past 4 years. It's been incredibly stressful for me, whereas he tends to take it in stride due to his different temperament. He doesn't understand why I cry and miss the old place, why it's so difficult for me to pack and unpack. Instability creates anxiety, anxiety creates depression. Rereading your post, it's not difficult at all to see why she would be stressed out after all that moving around - even if she initiated it.
posted by desjardins at 1:51 PM on August 6, 2009
"You have two fundamentally different temperaments. This will almost definitely never change, unless she's clinically depressed or something and is helped by medication. You should assume it won't change. Couples therapy may improve communication between you two, but it's not fundamentally going to change her into a different person."
This!
And breaking up over the fact that you're just not a great match is perfectly acceptable.
posted by The Biggest Dreamer at 1:53 PM on August 6, 2009 [2 favorites]
This!
And breaking up over the fact that you're just not a great match is perfectly acceptable.
posted by The Biggest Dreamer at 1:53 PM on August 6, 2009 [2 favorites]
I think "fraud" is a little harsh, to be honest, but my (admittedly totally amature) opinion is that you two are probably better apart.
Perhaps, in your relationship with your fiance, you provided her with something of a comfortable 'way out' of some difficult work of figuring out what she wants to be and do in the world. Clearly, she's reaching for something, but from your description, she sounds afraid of taking risks and being on her own, the relationship with you is giving her a comfortable excuse for avoiding this. In this sense, you may be dragging her down as much or even more than you feel she is you, even if you think that everything you're doing is great and right, relationship breakdown is never one-sided and you may be oppressive to her in ways you can't realize (just as I doubt she realizes that her being anxious and insecure is oppressive to you).
As far as an investment, I don't think you've invested as much as you might think: you do not have children, you do not own property together. An engagement is just a ring, really. Secondly, whether or not your parents think you're a failure for breaking off (what seems to have become a bad relationship) is their problem. Staying in a relationship to please a third party is a recipe for resentment. Tell your family as much as you want to and they will either understand or not. If they don't, that's a seperate problem from your current one.
As for remaining friends: yes, it's possible. Is it probable? I'd say no. Your fiance may decide that remaining friends with you if you break up is bad for her. (To be honest, I would decide that in her shoes.) If you decide to break off the relationship, you are of course risking the friendship as well. Also, really examine why you want to remain friends. Too often, people "stay friends" (or attempt to) after relationship break ups because of some unspoken (and often wrong) consensus that it's the 'mature' thing to do. Bull. Doing what's best for your health and happiness is the 'mature' thing to do.
posted by Kurichina at 1:57 PM on August 6, 2009
Perhaps, in your relationship with your fiance, you provided her with something of a comfortable 'way out' of some difficult work of figuring out what she wants to be and do in the world. Clearly, she's reaching for something, but from your description, she sounds afraid of taking risks and being on her own, the relationship with you is giving her a comfortable excuse for avoiding this. In this sense, you may be dragging her down as much or even more than you feel she is you, even if you think that everything you're doing is great and right, relationship breakdown is never one-sided and you may be oppressive to her in ways you can't realize (just as I doubt she realizes that her being anxious and insecure is oppressive to you).
As far as an investment, I don't think you've invested as much as you might think: you do not have children, you do not own property together. An engagement is just a ring, really. Secondly, whether or not your parents think you're a failure for breaking off (what seems to have become a bad relationship) is their problem. Staying in a relationship to please a third party is a recipe for resentment. Tell your family as much as you want to and they will either understand or not. If they don't, that's a seperate problem from your current one.
As for remaining friends: yes, it's possible. Is it probable? I'd say no. Your fiance may decide that remaining friends with you if you break up is bad for her. (To be honest, I would decide that in her shoes.) If you decide to break off the relationship, you are of course risking the friendship as well. Also, really examine why you want to remain friends. Too often, people "stay friends" (or attempt to) after relationship break ups because of some unspoken (and often wrong) consensus that it's the 'mature' thing to do. Bull. Doing what's best for your health and happiness is the 'mature' thing to do.
posted by Kurichina at 1:57 PM on August 6, 2009
It sounds to me like you're trying to convince yourself that you should break it off with her, and that the only real reason you haven't done so already is that you have a history with her and because you care what other people think. Here's my advice on both:
1. History is necessary but not sufficient for a healthy long-term relationship. If you can't honestly say that you would want to start a relationship with her if you met her as you see her now, you should break up with her.
2. How other people, even your family, will view your relationship decisions should not figure into how you make them. They may think you made a bad choice if you break up with her, but that doesn't make it so.
posted by cerebus19 at 1:59 PM on August 6, 2009
1. History is necessary but not sufficient for a healthy long-term relationship. If you can't honestly say that you would want to start a relationship with her if you met her as you see her now, you should break up with her.
2. How other people, even your family, will view your relationship decisions should not figure into how you make them. They may think you made a bad choice if you break up with her, but that doesn't make it so.
posted by cerebus19 at 1:59 PM on August 6, 2009
I feel like I have invested so much time and energy into this relationship that it is hard to let go.
Why?
Further, in the sense of being human: why must relationships be sought after, and then once the attendant sacrifices have been made, preserved?
I'm not saying to DTMF—at least I think I'm not—but you might want to evaluate how much of your own happiness depends on the presence of another person.
posted by trotter at 2:00 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Why?
Further, in the sense of being human: why must relationships be sought after, and then once the attendant sacrifices have been made, preserved?
I'm not saying to DTMF—at least I think I'm not—but you might want to evaluate how much of your own happiness depends on the presence of another person.
posted by trotter at 2:00 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
First of all, and I don't mean this in a mean way, but you seem like kind of a jerk. Your overconfident self-absorbtion is probably not helpful in your day to day arguments and discussions with your girlfriend.
Second of all, it seems like she moved across the country to live in a sub-par situation, while you are living it up in grad school and apparently socializing (rather than working) in your time off. If you've never telecommuted you don't know how hard it is to make friends in that situation. IE, instead of going out for 10 hours a day, getting lunch somewhere, you are cooped up inside in a studio apartment. It is just as tough as going to work for most people and generally ends up being more of a chore workload too.
Third, moving to a very rural location is only a good idea when paying telecommute jobs are easy to find. While many industries were already on the decline 18 months ago, the economy could not be in a worse spot right now. Rural areas have been hit especially hard, and let's face it, if she's a west-coast, yoga loving type of person (when not having anxiety or depressiong or "waffling" as you seem to interpret it) there are very few opportunities in a rural setting to work/live in that kind of atmosphere.
Fourth, it seems like you were never really committed to the only suggestion that she really perked up about: moving back west. Did you get a job there? Make plans to move there? Or just dangle it as a carrot and continue as if it never happened. You are obviously into going and living in a rural area. You are probably bitter about it, and I'm sure she can tell.
So basically, it seems like she's been in a bad situation, and you are playing martyr for dedicating an entire year and a half to one person. You should probably break up with her, because you seem to have lost all patience, and she seems to be the type who can get into extended funks. I really doubt you can remain friends.
posted by shownomercy at 2:11 PM on August 6, 2009 [22 favorites]
Second of all, it seems like she moved across the country to live in a sub-par situation, while you are living it up in grad school and apparently socializing (rather than working) in your time off. If you've never telecommuted you don't know how hard it is to make friends in that situation. IE, instead of going out for 10 hours a day, getting lunch somewhere, you are cooped up inside in a studio apartment. It is just as tough as going to work for most people and generally ends up being more of a chore workload too.
Third, moving to a very rural location is only a good idea when paying telecommute jobs are easy to find. While many industries were already on the decline 18 months ago, the economy could not be in a worse spot right now. Rural areas have been hit especially hard, and let's face it, if she's a west-coast, yoga loving type of person (when not having anxiety or depressiong or "waffling" as you seem to interpret it) there are very few opportunities in a rural setting to work/live in that kind of atmosphere.
Fourth, it seems like you were never really committed to the only suggestion that she really perked up about: moving back west. Did you get a job there? Make plans to move there? Or just dangle it as a carrot and continue as if it never happened. You are obviously into going and living in a rural area. You are probably bitter about it, and I'm sure she can tell.
So basically, it seems like she's been in a bad situation, and you are playing martyr for dedicating an entire year and a half to one person. You should probably break up with her, because you seem to have lost all patience, and she seems to be the type who can get into extended funks. I really doubt you can remain friends.
posted by shownomercy at 2:11 PM on August 6, 2009 [22 favorites]
I was startled to find near the end that she's 30; I was skimming along thinking 'Bah, standard early 20s anomie, don't get married, you're both too young.' Hrm...
It sounds like you would be happier without this relationship, sad as that may be.
posted by kmennie at 2:13 PM on August 6, 2009
It sounds like you would be happier without this relationship, sad as that may be.
posted by kmennie at 2:13 PM on August 6, 2009
A lot of my advice on relationships is colored by my very recent relationship history. I met a nice, fun, outgoing man who seemed solid both professionally and personally. He seemed to, at the outset, meet my emotional and physical needs and fit very well into my life and my heart. Over the course of a few months, he became, in my mind, an unpleasant and demanding man who was unwilling to do the smallest things for me or even make the tiniest gestures at working at our relationship. Yet ever time we discussed things, he swore up and down that this "whatever" was merely temporary and would pass. And as soon as it did he would then focus on my needs.
I realized, at some point in the relationship, that he was depressed and talked to him about it. He admitted that he had a history of depression and had dealt with it in the past, but he didn't feel at this time that therapy or any sort of treatment would help. He felt that he could just "power through it".
Five years of the same routine of discussion and promises only to revert back to the same depressive behavior, I left him. I think both of us are better off for it as well.
Sometimes people aren't good together. Yes, relationships aren't easy, but they also should never be sources of unending unhappiness. It really sounds like you've reached the point I did when I realized that even if he did change and go back to the happy fun guy he was, I couldn't trust him to be that person ever again.
posted by teleri025 at 2:13 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I realized, at some point in the relationship, that he was depressed and talked to him about it. He admitted that he had a history of depression and had dealt with it in the past, but he didn't feel at this time that therapy or any sort of treatment would help. He felt that he could just "power through it".
Five years of the same routine of discussion and promises only to revert back to the same depressive behavior, I left him. I think both of us are better off for it as well.
Sometimes people aren't good together. Yes, relationships aren't easy, but they also should never be sources of unending unhappiness. It really sounds like you've reached the point I did when I realized that even if he did change and go back to the happy fun guy he was, I couldn't trust him to be that person ever again.
posted by teleri025 at 2:13 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
In over a dozen paragraphs I don't see you saying one nice thing about your fiance. Your interpretation of the apparent change in her personality (that she tricked you with a fraudulent facade that you were a fool to fall for) is absolutely the most judgmental, uncharitable one imaginable. It seems a lot more likely that she is suffering from substantial depression (and having zero sexual response, by the by, is in fact something "huge" in most people's books).
The reading I get from what you wrote is a person who is 100% checked out on a relationship and being held in by nothing other than inertia and the social pressure of the engagement. You don't really sound ready for marriage in any sense anyway. Normally I'd say couples therapy takes more than three weeks to work, but unless there is some wellspring of positive feeling you didn't exhibit in this question, get it over with and deal with the consequences. When there is an engagement in the mix waiting longer can only make every aspect of it worse. Tell your parents there were a lot of problems of incompatibility and diverging plans and growing apart and whatever that you hadn't been talking about publicly and you went to relationship counseling but it didn't work. It doesn't matter, it will be ancient history in a year. They'd be more disappointed in the inevitable divorce if you follow through on this thing in the state it's in.
It's pretty unlikely that you will be able to maintain a friendship but stranger things have happened.
posted by nanojath at 2:16 PM on August 6, 2009 [9 favorites]
The reading I get from what you wrote is a person who is 100% checked out on a relationship and being held in by nothing other than inertia and the social pressure of the engagement. You don't really sound ready for marriage in any sense anyway. Normally I'd say couples therapy takes more than three weeks to work, but unless there is some wellspring of positive feeling you didn't exhibit in this question, get it over with and deal with the consequences. When there is an engagement in the mix waiting longer can only make every aspect of it worse. Tell your parents there were a lot of problems of incompatibility and diverging plans and growing apart and whatever that you hadn't been talking about publicly and you went to relationship counseling but it didn't work. It doesn't matter, it will be ancient history in a year. They'd be more disappointed in the inevitable divorce if you follow through on this thing in the state it's in.
It's pretty unlikely that you will be able to maintain a friendship but stranger things have happened.
posted by nanojath at 2:16 PM on August 6, 2009 [9 favorites]
Speaking as someone who got married after a short (2 1/2 month) engagement, made two interstate moves (one halfway across the country) to follow the wife's career, bought a house with her that was larger than I personally felt we needed because she wanted a big house, and ended up realizing that we really shouldn't have been married in the first place... there's a reason why engagements should be longer than a single season. It's not because it takes that long for a dress to be made or to get the flower arrangements sorted out. (And yes, I do have many happy memories of our time together.)
Take it from one who knows:
1) You marry the person as they are, not as a potential fixer-upper. If she has things to work on, then she needs to remain committed to working on them. If this is the person that you really, really want to spend the rest of your life with, then you'll be willing to wait while they work on their stuff, and maybe even a little while longer, to make sure that they're not just putting on a happy face for your benefit, as you seem to already suspect them of doing. Indefinite postponement of the engagement is an option.
2) Sexual incompatibility isn't a warning sign, or even a red alert; it's more like when the Enterprise's computer starts saying things like "auto-destruct engaged" or "warp core breach imminent" and starts counting down. I don't think I need to come out and say what it's counting down to.
3) I don't really get a sense of what your family is like, so I can't say how they'd react to having you break off or postpone the engagement. If they would react negatively, then they probably wouldn't be too happy about a separation or divorce, either. It's entirely possible that they'll surprise you and say, "I was wondering when you'd come to your senses," as mine did to me.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:22 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Take it from one who knows:
1) You marry the person as they are, not as a potential fixer-upper. If she has things to work on, then she needs to remain committed to working on them. If this is the person that you really, really want to spend the rest of your life with, then you'll be willing to wait while they work on their stuff, and maybe even a little while longer, to make sure that they're not just putting on a happy face for your benefit, as you seem to already suspect them of doing. Indefinite postponement of the engagement is an option.
2) Sexual incompatibility isn't a warning sign, or even a red alert; it's more like when the Enterprise's computer starts saying things like "auto-destruct engaged" or "warp core breach imminent" and starts counting down. I don't think I need to come out and say what it's counting down to.
3) I don't really get a sense of what your family is like, so I can't say how they'd react to having you break off or postpone the engagement. If they would react negatively, then they probably wouldn't be too happy about a separation or divorce, either. It's entirely possible that they'll surprise you and say, "I was wondering when you'd come to your senses," as mine did to me.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:22 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
What you are writing sounds like it could have been written by my ex-husband. So speaking as someone who has been on the other side of a similar situation, I think you owe it to both of you to end this relationship. It might be difficult, and she might resist you, but I think you both know that you are incompatible. That doesn't mean either of you are bad people, you are just not right for each other.
posted by apricot at 2:23 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by apricot at 2:23 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
follow-up from the OP
I didn't mean to say she was a "complete fraud" -- I know she wasn't trying to deceive me on purpose. And I do know that the first few months of a relationship are usually different (more exciting, etc -- the "honeymoon" period). But the signs and symptoms she exhibits now... the anxiety, the disinterest in sex, unhappiness with her work, general irritability... none of this was present when we first met, probably not even for the first year.posted by jessamyn at 2:39 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'll be honest, I don't understand her problem most of the time (I try, really, I do). We have it good. We're both employed, no debt, lots of money in the bank. I'm finishing up school after many years, she's doing an easy job (but really good money) in the field that she's been in for several years, even branching off to start her own business on the side.
And yes, she is an amazing person. I'm a quirky guy with specific interests and wants from life, and I never ever thought I would meet a girl who shared those same interests. We have a lot in common, which is what attracted me to her in the first place. She's cute as hell and generally very self-aware, which I appreciate.
I definitely don't want to give up if we can salvage our relationship somehow. I am just feeling like I am at the end of my rope at the moment, that nothing is working, that no matter how hard I try, she is not happy and gets upset at the littlest things.
I'm a very laid back person. I take all things in stride, and my philosophy is to make lemonade from lemons. I never ever get depressed, discouraged, whatever -- there is a silver lining to everything in my world. I'm happy with myself, wouldn't change a thing in my past because it made me who I am. She is not like this at all. Every little thing is a setback, every little thing annoys her, she gets upset that she's not happy with her job, etc etc.
She also sees things as "the grass is always greener on the other side". She's jealous of other people, of their jobs, or where they're living, or their haircuts... all kinds of things. Yet she is cute as hell and has a physique that a lot of 30 year old girls would love to have. She also regrets not moving around more when she was in her 20s, not going on any trips abroad, etc (which I did when I was in my 20s... I've been to 5 different colleges, and went to south and central america a few times... and she is jealous of me for it)
It's obvious that she's not happy with herself, for whatever reasons.
Are we -- despite our best efforts -- simply incompatible?
You met your fiancee when she was living in the place she chose for herself and where she intended to stay. She then followed you to the East Coast to be with you while you finished school, living in a studio apartment and working telecommuting (ugh!). This was a huge disruption in her life.
I'm curious whether the idea to move to your family property was something she really wanted to do, or something she agreed to in order to make you happy.
It sounds like she has done a lot for you in terms of putting her own life on hold. I realize that you may not have asked her to do so, but the fact remains. Perhaps she feels that she isn't getting the payoff that she expected. Instead of being grateful to her, you're disappointed that she isn't as fun as she used to be. I really recommend that she look into the idea that she might be co-dependent - because that's what it sounds like to me.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:43 PM on August 6, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'm curious whether the idea to move to your family property was something she really wanted to do, or something she agreed to in order to make you happy.
It sounds like she has done a lot for you in terms of putting her own life on hold. I realize that you may not have asked her to do so, but the fact remains. Perhaps she feels that she isn't getting the payoff that she expected. Instead of being grateful to her, you're disappointed that she isn't as fun as she used to be. I really recommend that she look into the idea that she might be co-dependent - because that's what it sounds like to me.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:43 PM on August 6, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'm agreeing with The Light Fantastic here. It sounds like she has made many compromises to be with you, and has even gone to therapy. She does seem to have issues (as you say, being indecisive, not making friends, etc.), but it seems like you are the only thing holding her back from moving forward and solving them. She may truly want to be on the west coast. You add that she hasn't had the chance to explore the world--why not let her go and do that? From what you are saying (and how you are saying it), this does not sound like this is going to make for a wonderful, or indeed long-lasting marriage.
posted by Dukat at 2:54 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Dukat at 2:54 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I definitely don't want to give up if we can salvage our relationship somehow. I am just feeling like I am at the end of my rope at the moment, that nothing is working, that no matter how hard I try, she is not happy
Then tell her this, and tell her that you insist she get therapy.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:55 PM on August 6, 2009
Then tell her this, and tell her that you insist she get therapy.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:55 PM on August 6, 2009
no debt, lots of money in the bank.
went to south and central america a few times... and she is jealous of me for it
Well, why not do a little traveling together?
posted by martens at 3:00 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
went to south and central america a few times... and she is jealous of me for it
Well, why not do a little traveling together?
posted by martens at 3:00 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Have I been kidding myself for the past year and a half, thinking that she wasn't the problem (i.e. it was that we were living in a crappy city, in a small apt, etc) ???
I think you both have, and maybe this is the root of the problem. She's obviously willing to change things, but so far she's been blaming her unhappiness on external factors (understandably), and you've followed her lead (justifiably). Is she willing to change herself to get back to being happy? It sounds like therapy isn't working for her - but she can find a new therapist. She can try lots of things.
But I say that with some caveats.
I feel partly like a fool for falling for what she pretended to be, and not able to see through it all.
I can totally imagine myself with her long term IF she was the person I met on the west coast. But I cannot deal with her deep anxiety and emotional issues.
OK. Let's talk about these statements. You are not Prince Eric and she is not Ursula the Sea-Witch, wearing an attractive disguise just long enough to get you hooked. It's pretty uncharitable to assume that the way she's been over the past year is the "real" her and everything before that was a fraud. You can just as easily view it the other way - the person you first met is the real her, and the unhappy girl she is now is the imposter.
But in reality, they're both "who she really is." People are complex, and people have high periods and low periods - some more pronounced than others. She probably wants to get back to her former self, too - generally, people prefer being happy over being sad and anxious.
If she indeed struggles with clinical depression and anxiety, and you're looking for someone who will be happy all the time, then she's not the girl for you. I'm really happy to hear that you are fortunate enough to have such an even and sunny temperament. You're a San Diego, she's maybe more of a Seattle or even a Chicago, and you met her during late spring. If you're just going to resent her natural weather patterns then let her find somebody who will appreciate them.
(And you know, maybe she resents YOU for being a smug little San Diego. But just so you know, you live right next to those giant nuclear titties in San Onofre, and one day they are going to blow up, and what will the forecast look like then, huh?????)
Last but not least, is there any possibility of breaking it off and still remaining friends?
Probably not.
posted by granted at 3:00 PM on August 6, 2009 [8 favorites]
I think you both have, and maybe this is the root of the problem. She's obviously willing to change things, but so far she's been blaming her unhappiness on external factors (understandably), and you've followed her lead (justifiably). Is she willing to change herself to get back to being happy? It sounds like therapy isn't working for her - but she can find a new therapist. She can try lots of things.
But I say that with some caveats.
I feel partly like a fool for falling for what she pretended to be, and not able to see through it all.
I can totally imagine myself with her long term IF she was the person I met on the west coast. But I cannot deal with her deep anxiety and emotional issues.
OK. Let's talk about these statements. You are not Prince Eric and she is not Ursula the Sea-Witch, wearing an attractive disguise just long enough to get you hooked. It's pretty uncharitable to assume that the way she's been over the past year is the "real" her and everything before that was a fraud. You can just as easily view it the other way - the person you first met is the real her, and the unhappy girl she is now is the imposter.
But in reality, they're both "who she really is." People are complex, and people have high periods and low periods - some more pronounced than others. She probably wants to get back to her former self, too - generally, people prefer being happy over being sad and anxious.
If she indeed struggles with clinical depression and anxiety, and you're looking for someone who will be happy all the time, then she's not the girl for you. I'm really happy to hear that you are fortunate enough to have such an even and sunny temperament. You're a San Diego, she's maybe more of a Seattle or even a Chicago, and you met her during late spring. If you're just going to resent her natural weather patterns then let her find somebody who will appreciate them.
(And you know, maybe she resents YOU for being a smug little San Diego. But just so you know, you live right next to those giant nuclear titties in San Onofre, and one day they are going to blow up, and what will the forecast look like then, huh?????)
Last but not least, is there any possibility of breaking it off and still remaining friends?
Probably not.
posted by granted at 3:00 PM on August 6, 2009 [8 favorites]
I feel partly like a fool for falling for what she pretended to be, and not able to see through it all.
You're done, and you're rationalizing and looking for support here, because you want to be done and also save some sort of idea of yourself as "a nice guy."
You need to break it off. Nicely is good, sure, but done soon is what matters, since it's better for both of you to have more-life-left afterwards.
It really sounds like you're two people who don't want the same things at all. There's nothing wrong with that as a reason to go different directions. You already have different headings.
(Also, I don't know what the heck you think is "vague" in that post, but I can't believe your fiance will read this and NOT recognize the situation.)
posted by rokusan at 3:10 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
You're done, and you're rationalizing and looking for support here, because you want to be done and also save some sort of idea of yourself as "a nice guy."
You need to break it off. Nicely is good, sure, but done soon is what matters, since it's better for both of you to have more-life-left afterwards.
It really sounds like you're two people who don't want the same things at all. There's nothing wrong with that as a reason to go different directions. You already have different headings.
(Also, I don't know what the heck you think is "vague" in that post, but I can't believe your fiance will read this and NOT recognize the situation.)
posted by rokusan at 3:10 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'll be honest, I don't understand her problem most of the time
Depression and anxiety don't have to make sense. My wife has anxiety issues, and odd things used to be able to set off panic attacks, and she didn't really comprehend how serious things were until she had to go to the emergency room to be heavily sedated, after thinking she was going to die.
In her lifetime her "triggers" have changed. For example, she used to love flying on planes. Now she can't help but think of all the things that can go wrong. She knows that she needs to be medicated before the trip, and that she'll be less than focused for the flight, but she is then able to make it through the trip.
I imagine that being infatuated can overrun some of those anxiety or depression triggers, so that first period together helped her. But now she's been stressed for a while, and maybe she doesn't realize it's something as serious as something that needs medication to start treating it. You can't just "power through" or "wait out" depression and anxiety. My wife takes a minor daily dosage and is doing a lot better now, and through treating her own anxiety she's realized much of her family has various issues with depression and anxiety. It's survivable, but it makes life a lot less fun.
I don't understand what my wife feels, but I help her however I can. I wait things out, I sit by her side. Marriage is not the mixing of two into one, but the balancing of your needs and abilities. Sometimes neither of you will know what you need, but you can work together to find out.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:22 PM on August 6, 2009 [10 favorites]
Depression and anxiety don't have to make sense. My wife has anxiety issues, and odd things used to be able to set off panic attacks, and she didn't really comprehend how serious things were until she had to go to the emergency room to be heavily sedated, after thinking she was going to die.
In her lifetime her "triggers" have changed. For example, she used to love flying on planes. Now she can't help but think of all the things that can go wrong. She knows that she needs to be medicated before the trip, and that she'll be less than focused for the flight, but she is then able to make it through the trip.
I imagine that being infatuated can overrun some of those anxiety or depression triggers, so that first period together helped her. But now she's been stressed for a while, and maybe she doesn't realize it's something as serious as something that needs medication to start treating it. You can't just "power through" or "wait out" depression and anxiety. My wife takes a minor daily dosage and is doing a lot better now, and through treating her own anxiety she's realized much of her family has various issues with depression and anxiety. It's survivable, but it makes life a lot less fun.
I don't understand what my wife feels, but I help her however I can. I wait things out, I sit by her side. Marriage is not the mixing of two into one, but the balancing of your needs and abilities. Sometimes neither of you will know what you need, but you can work together to find out.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:22 PM on August 6, 2009 [10 favorites]
I don't think you're a jerk, but I don't think you should get married, either. You just don't seem happy with her as a partner now, which doesn't bode well for your future as a couple.
People break off engagments all the time (I've already had two sets of friends, both in their early 30s, call off their weddings this year) and your parents may end up being more supportive of your decision than you suspect. You also don't owe anyone an explanation, other than your fiance. If you do split up, I don't think you should try to be friends...the two of you should focus on moving forward and doing what you each want to do with your lives, separately. Oh, and if she does read AskMe she will know that you wrote this- it's very detailed and personal.
posted by emd3737 at 3:28 PM on August 6, 2009
People break off engagments all the time (I've already had two sets of friends, both in their early 30s, call off their weddings this year) and your parents may end up being more supportive of your decision than you suspect. You also don't owe anyone an explanation, other than your fiance. If you do split up, I don't think you should try to be friends...the two of you should focus on moving forward and doing what you each want to do with your lives, separately. Oh, and if she does read AskMe she will know that you wrote this- it's very detailed and personal.
posted by emd3737 at 3:28 PM on August 6, 2009
She will be much better off without you.
It doesn't sound as though you respect her very much. I bet that comes across to her in so many little ways. All those little messages she gets about how much you don't respect her is drowning her motivation and crippling her self-confidence.
Let her go.
posted by jbenben at 3:29 PM on August 6, 2009 [10 favorites]
It doesn't sound as though you respect her very much. I bet that comes across to her in so many little ways. All those little messages she gets about how much you don't respect her is drowning her motivation and crippling her self-confidence.
Let her go.
posted by jbenben at 3:29 PM on August 6, 2009 [10 favorites]
that no matter how hard I try, she is not happy and gets upset at the littlest things.
this is because you cannot control other people's emotions. you cannot MAKE someone happy.
posted by desjardins at 3:47 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
this is because you cannot control other people's emotions. you cannot MAKE someone happy.
posted by desjardins at 3:47 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Nthing jbenben. It reads like "I'm incredibly freakin' great, I think most of my friends would describe me as one of the nicest, most carefree, genuine people they have ever met, she's made a ton of massive changes for me, she's in a hard time and place and I'm about ready to bail."
But there's the fraud or fraud-lite thing and you partly feel like a fool. What's up with partly feeling anything?
And your words don't reek of compassion.
Words like "nicest" and "genuine" aren't exactly the ones coming to mind.
But you're super-awesome and she's a mess, right?
posted by ambient2 at 3:51 PM on August 6, 2009 [9 favorites]
But there's the fraud or fraud-lite thing and you partly feel like a fool. What's up with partly feeling anything?
And your words don't reek of compassion.
Words like "nicest" and "genuine" aren't exactly the ones coming to mind.
But you're super-awesome and she's a mess, right?
posted by ambient2 at 3:51 PM on August 6, 2009 [9 favorites]
I'm not a complete angel by any means, but I am a nice, caring guy... maybe to a fault?
This reminds me of job candidates who are asked to list their worst qualities, and the answers they come up with are always "I work too hard" and "I'm too much of a perfectionist, darn it!"
posted by rokusan at 3:56 PM on August 6, 2009 [2 favorites]
This reminds me of job candidates who are asked to list their worst qualities, and the answers they come up with are always "I work too hard" and "I'm too much of a perfectionist, darn it!"
posted by rokusan at 3:56 PM on August 6, 2009 [2 favorites]
You know, I don't want to put you down, because I don't think this is at all your fault, but it could be that your constantly upbeat personality has actually exacerbated her own moodiness, and that your response to her depression and anxiety and all the rest has made the problem worse. That may be one of the reasons why she seems so different now.
There is a tendency in those that are "laid back" and carefree to think that all depressed people need is someone to tell them "cheer up!" all the time. All it ends up doing is making the moody person feel more frustrated because, for them, it's just not that easy.
Also, you say things like, "she seemed like she was into it," about moving to the rural place, and yet it doesn't seem like the two of you communicate very well. I wonder if you might sometimes, being the can-do guy you are, brush aside her objections as little obstacles easily overcome rather than recognizing that she is voicing her own doubts, telling you, "No, this is really not something I want to do."
Added to that, her impulsive behavior, like the yoga thing, is also very closely tied to depressed people, who can go for a long time feeling no motivation whatsoever and then throw themselves into something out of desperation but never follow through. I've been guilty of this myself (though now that I am older, 'impuslve' is more just changing my hairstyle).
In the end, I think you two are not well-suited. How your parents will feel if you break up is NOT a good reason to stay with someone, and you know this. I would also really work on communicating with your fiancee that the two of you have grown in different directions, because that's what I think the real issue is here, and there's no need to make her feel like she's a failure because of it.
Good luck; this won't be easy.
posted by misha at 4:06 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
There is a tendency in those that are "laid back" and carefree to think that all depressed people need is someone to tell them "cheer up!" all the time. All it ends up doing is making the moody person feel more frustrated because, for them, it's just not that easy.
Also, you say things like, "she seemed like she was into it," about moving to the rural place, and yet it doesn't seem like the two of you communicate very well. I wonder if you might sometimes, being the can-do guy you are, brush aside her objections as little obstacles easily overcome rather than recognizing that she is voicing her own doubts, telling you, "No, this is really not something I want to do."
Added to that, her impulsive behavior, like the yoga thing, is also very closely tied to depressed people, who can go for a long time feeling no motivation whatsoever and then throw themselves into something out of desperation but never follow through. I've been guilty of this myself (though now that I am older, 'impuslve' is more just changing my hairstyle).
In the end, I think you two are not well-suited. How your parents will feel if you break up is NOT a good reason to stay with someone, and you know this. I would also really work on communicating with your fiancee that the two of you have grown in different directions, because that's what I think the real issue is here, and there's no need to make her feel like she's a failure because of it.
Good luck; this won't be easy.
posted by misha at 4:06 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
I definitely don't want to give up if we can salvage our relationship somehow.
That changes my interpretation! That has more conviction.
Well, if that's the case, you have to lay it on the line and mean it, and tell her what you've said, and in particular, how this has made you feel, whether it's lonely or isolated or depressed or whatever.
If you want to commit to the relationship, it's all in or all out. If you want to really be close to someone, really be intimate, you have to tell them the truth and hash it out together. There's no closeness without risk.
I think she would really, seriously benefit from a nice anti-depressant and an outside life.
But you have to sit down in front of her and have A Serious Talk that this is A Crossroads.
Either way it works out, you're going to have to be brave. Brave-r. It sounds like you've been holding a lot back.
I bet she has too, so hold on to your hat for that one.
Good luck to you.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:18 PM on August 6, 2009
You should break it off because you're just not good husband material yet. You're so uncommitted to the relationship that, to a married person who loves his/her spouse, it's insulting that you even thought of proposing when you're clearly just not ready.
I say this because when I saw this:
I feel partly like a fool for falling for what she pretended to be,
it occurred to me that you're blaming her and you think she tricked you. Any woman who has been in love can tell you that falling is a lightening bolt and very adrenalizing. She wasn't lying to you. The whole thing wasn't a charade. She's deeply depressed and even I'm worried about her. She just sounds really unwell.
If you're worried about what your parents think about a broken engagement, know that you've already kind of failed in that these aren't the thoughts of a genuine and caring person who loves his sick fiancee. If you really cared about her and loved her, you wouldn't blame her.
You aren't ready to be a husband. Break it off. I think she'll feel better and be less depressed and unhappy when she's away from someone who secretly hates her and everything she is.
posted by anniecat at 4:20 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
I say this because when I saw this:
I feel partly like a fool for falling for what she pretended to be,
it occurred to me that you're blaming her and you think she tricked you. Any woman who has been in love can tell you that falling is a lightening bolt and very adrenalizing. She wasn't lying to you. The whole thing wasn't a charade. She's deeply depressed and even I'm worried about her. She just sounds really unwell.
If you're worried about what your parents think about a broken engagement, know that you've already kind of failed in that these aren't the thoughts of a genuine and caring person who loves his sick fiancee. If you really cared about her and loved her, you wouldn't blame her.
You aren't ready to be a husband. Break it off. I think she'll feel better and be less depressed and unhappy when she's away from someone who secretly hates her and everything she is.
posted by anniecat at 4:20 PM on August 6, 2009 [6 favorites]
And really -- seriously -- this time; that's it. You lay it all on the line and if you don't see things moving forward, getting better, her making an effort -- walk.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2009
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:21 PM on August 6, 2009
Additional thoughts: If your fiance actually has depression or anxiety issues, saying "she's better off without you" is the easy way out. If there are actual issues that are deeper than simply moving to the country and getting married, she'll need to deal with them unless she can find some happy place where nothing triggers her downward cycles. You'll be better, but she'll still be trying to cope with her life however she can.
I don't mean to burden you, but if you leave her to live her own life and she never gets diagnosed, she'll be avoiding potential solutions. If you two are such a good match, you could be missing some great times together, once this instability passes into something better.
Of course, this is all assuming her issues are based around depression and anxiety that go beyond being unsure about the broad scope of the future. Maybe she was trying to please you in these past moves and whatnot, and she's been squelching her happiness for yours, but hasn't had the nerve to say anything. Maybe she truly will never be happy. I am not a doctor, therapist, or anything of that sort, but from the fact that she's had better times, and now through all this moving and large potential shifts in her future, it sounds like depression or anxiety could be the root of her current issues.
Good luck to both of you, whatever you do. If you'd like more insight into dealing with depression in others, MeMail me.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:36 PM on August 6, 2009
I don't mean to burden you, but if you leave her to live her own life and she never gets diagnosed, she'll be avoiding potential solutions. If you two are such a good match, you could be missing some great times together, once this instability passes into something better.
Of course, this is all assuming her issues are based around depression and anxiety that go beyond being unsure about the broad scope of the future. Maybe she was trying to please you in these past moves and whatnot, and she's been squelching her happiness for yours, but hasn't had the nerve to say anything. Maybe she truly will never be happy. I am not a doctor, therapist, or anything of that sort, but from the fact that she's had better times, and now through all this moving and large potential shifts in her future, it sounds like depression or anxiety could be the root of her current issues.
Good luck to both of you, whatever you do. If you'd like more insight into dealing with depression in others, MeMail me.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:36 PM on August 6, 2009
Addendum, on the anxiety/depression front: if it is something issue that can be dealt with through medication, things won't magically be better right away, and they won't go away completely. Every now and again, my wife has enough stress that the leveling effects of her medication aren't enough, and it's a bit scary. But I know what it is, and I know it will pass. I can't leave her to deal with it herself at those times, even if I feel like I am doing nothing for the situation but sitting there, feeling useless. But that's our situation and not yours.
posted by filthy light thief at 4:39 PM on August 6, 2009
posted by filthy light thief at 4:39 PM on August 6, 2009
ok, first of all, this:
secondly, this:
i'm not saying you can't salvage the relationship. it's possible, if she can get help. which she does need. she cannot do it by herself. nor can she do it with you pressuring her to do it. if you don't have the patience to see her through that, that is absolutely fine. some people can't handle it. but she needs help.
and if you do break up, no, i don't think you'll be able to stay friends.
posted by dithmer at 4:46 PM on August 6, 2009 [4 favorites]
I'll be honest, I don't understand her problem most of the time (I try, really, I do). We have it good. We're both employed, no debt, lots of money in the bank. I'm finishing up school after many years, she's doing an easy job (but really good money) in the field that she's been in for several years, even branching off to start her own business on the side.yeah, you're not going to get her problem. it's not about her job, it's not about money, it's about the fact that she feels intrinsically unhappy. and she probably is saying all those things to herself that you're saying - "i have this great job, good money, a great relationship - why am i not happy?" which makes things a billion billion times worse, because then not only do you feel unhappy for no reason, you feel kind of like a spoiled jerk. seriously, it's not about the things you have. really try hard not to see it that way.
secondly, this:
I'm a very laid back person. I take all things in stride, and my philosophy is to make lemonade from lemons. I never ever get depressed, discouraged, whatever -- there is a silver lining to everything in my world. I'm happy with myself, wouldn't change a thing in my past because it made me who I am. She is not like this at all. Every little thing is a setback, every little thing annoys her, she gets upset that she's not happy with her job, etc etc.this also makes depressed people feel awful. absolutely awful. "well gosh, i'm happy all the time, why can't you be?" and that's shitty. because she feels awful. and you basically being like "well i don't know why you can't just get over it" is one of the worst possible things you can say to a depressed person. and most depressed people have heard it. they cannot just get over it, they cannot just see the lemonade and the silver linings and blah blah blah. there's like a big black cloud over everything and it obstructs her ability to see those things.
i'm not saying you can't salvage the relationship. it's possible, if she can get help. which she does need. she cannot do it by herself. nor can she do it with you pressuring her to do it. if you don't have the patience to see her through that, that is absolutely fine. some people can't handle it. but she needs help.
and if you do break up, no, i don't think you'll be able to stay friends.
posted by dithmer at 4:46 PM on August 6, 2009 [4 favorites]
Oh, dude. It's nice that you're never ever ever depressed or discouraged by anything, but not everyone is wired like that. In fact, I can't think of a single person I know who IS wired that way.
Maybe what you need to do is try growing yourself some empathy, because it really doesn't sound like you have any for the woman you say you love. Rereading what you have to say in your original post, it comes off as you laying all the blame squarely at her feet -- she's not fun, she doesn't get anything out of sex and it can't be your fault because you know you're hot shit in the sack, she got herself to therapy but she's not fixed yet, she's dragging you down... oh yeah, and the whole thing about her "hiding" her "true nature" from you until she'd roped you in. Awesome.
posted by palomar at 4:51 PM on August 6, 2009 [11 favorites]
Maybe what you need to do is try growing yourself some empathy, because it really doesn't sound like you have any for the woman you say you love. Rereading what you have to say in your original post, it comes off as you laying all the blame squarely at her feet -- she's not fun, she doesn't get anything out of sex and it can't be your fault because you know you're hot shit in the sack, she got herself to therapy but she's not fixed yet, she's dragging you down... oh yeah, and the whole thing about her "hiding" her "true nature" from you until she'd roped you in. Awesome.
posted by palomar at 4:51 PM on August 6, 2009 [11 favorites]
I'm a very laid back person. I take all things in stride, and my philosophy is to make lemonade from lemons. I never ever get depressed, discouraged, whatever -- there is a silver lining to everything in my world. I'm happy with myself, wouldn't change a thing in my past because it made me who I am. She is not like this at all. Every little thing is a setback, every little thing annoys her, she gets upset that she's not happy with her job, etc etc.
Oh, jeez. It's great that you never get depressed or discouraged but she sounds completely normal. Accept that people (your girlfriend) get discouraged, have blue periods, and suffer from depression.
I think it's naive to believe that you will find a person that will be cheery and happy all of the time. I don't think you really expect this but most people can't always find a silver lining. You might not change a thing from your past but she may have had very painful things in her past that she would have preferred not happen. She has to work this out and come to terms with it in her own way.
She also sees things as "the grass is always greener on the other side". She's jealous of other people, of their jobs, or where they're living, or their haircuts... all kinds of things. Yet she is cute as hell and has a physique that a lot of 30 year old girls would love to have. She also regrets not moving around more when she was in her 20s, not going on any trips abroad, etc (which I did when I was in my 20s... I've been to 5 different colleges, and went to south and central america a few times... and she is jealous of me for it)
It's obvious that she's not happy with herself, for whatever reasons.
Yeah, this description sounds like she is unhappy but this behavior certainly isn't unheard of. I have been this person and three-quarters of my friends have as well. She seems disenchanted with life right now and is comparing herself to others. It's nearly impossible for you to change her mindset about her self-worth, she has to do that for herself. But it would be nice, if you loved and cared for her, if you would show her lots of support, love, and affection and talk to her. Maybe she doesn't complain that much but you are hyperfocused and you notice every little complaint and are offended or turned-off. It sounds like you are in defensive mode and it's easy to notice all of her bad qualities. It's harder at this time to support her when all she seems to be is viewing the glass as half-empty.
A lot of people have regrets. I would have liked to have traveled more and gone to a better college, etc. A lot of people have these kinds of feelings, especially in our hyper-competitive society. Does she dwell on them? Does she complain about it often, or has she talked about it a few times? What are you doing to reassure her that international travel has nothing to do with happiness or self-worth?
It's not really fair of you to expect her to be like you. She never will be. We learn and grow from our relationships. It sounds like she is still in the process of accepting herself and realizing that people, more or less, are all the same. We all have regrets and insecurities. She's perfectly wonderful the way she is but hasn't realized it yet. The fact that she is in therapy is a very good sign that she wants to feel better and wants to love herself.
P.S. I think it would be wonderful if she got back to yoga. Not to maintain her "cute as hell physique" but to help with the anxiety and increase her sense of well-being. And she'll meet new friends, too. Don't forget about pampering her a bit and taking the initiative to inject some more fun into the relationship. Take her out to dinner. Go out with friends, go camping again, surprise her with a little trinket, etc. Tell her you're proud of her.
posted by Fairchild at 4:54 PM on August 6, 2009
Oh, jeez. It's great that you never get depressed or discouraged but she sounds completely normal. Accept that people (your girlfriend) get discouraged, have blue periods, and suffer from depression.
I think it's naive to believe that you will find a person that will be cheery and happy all of the time. I don't think you really expect this but most people can't always find a silver lining. You might not change a thing from your past but she may have had very painful things in her past that she would have preferred not happen. She has to work this out and come to terms with it in her own way.
She also sees things as "the grass is always greener on the other side". She's jealous of other people, of their jobs, or where they're living, or their haircuts... all kinds of things. Yet she is cute as hell and has a physique that a lot of 30 year old girls would love to have. She also regrets not moving around more when she was in her 20s, not going on any trips abroad, etc (which I did when I was in my 20s... I've been to 5 different colleges, and went to south and central america a few times... and she is jealous of me for it)
It's obvious that she's not happy with herself, for whatever reasons.
Yeah, this description sounds like she is unhappy but this behavior certainly isn't unheard of. I have been this person and three-quarters of my friends have as well. She seems disenchanted with life right now and is comparing herself to others. It's nearly impossible for you to change her mindset about her self-worth, she has to do that for herself. But it would be nice, if you loved and cared for her, if you would show her lots of support, love, and affection and talk to her. Maybe she doesn't complain that much but you are hyperfocused and you notice every little complaint and are offended or turned-off. It sounds like you are in defensive mode and it's easy to notice all of her bad qualities. It's harder at this time to support her when all she seems to be is viewing the glass as half-empty.
A lot of people have regrets. I would have liked to have traveled more and gone to a better college, etc. A lot of people have these kinds of feelings, especially in our hyper-competitive society. Does she dwell on them? Does she complain about it often, or has she talked about it a few times? What are you doing to reassure her that international travel has nothing to do with happiness or self-worth?
It's not really fair of you to expect her to be like you. She never will be. We learn and grow from our relationships. It sounds like she is still in the process of accepting herself and realizing that people, more or less, are all the same. We all have regrets and insecurities. She's perfectly wonderful the way she is but hasn't realized it yet. The fact that she is in therapy is a very good sign that she wants to feel better and wants to love herself.
P.S. I think it would be wonderful if she got back to yoga. Not to maintain her "cute as hell physique" but to help with the anxiety and increase her sense of well-being. And she'll meet new friends, too. Don't forget about pampering her a bit and taking the initiative to inject some more fun into the relationship. Take her out to dinner. Go out with friends, go camping again, surprise her with a little trinket, etc. Tell her you're proud of her.
posted by Fairchild at 4:54 PM on August 6, 2009
After reading your initial thread, your follow up, and all the responses, the thing that keeps popping up in my head, is that nobody has brought up whether *she* wants to still marry *you*. She may be just as fed up and miserable. Have you thought about that?
Put the shoe on the other foot, and consider that she might not want to spend the rest of her days feeling as trapped with somebody that doesn't make her happy, or fulfilled (yeah, yeah, putting aside the whole you can only make yourself happy thing).
Now, that being said. It certainly sounds as if your fiancee is battling some significant depression and needs to address that as a foremost concern. But if you can't find it within yourself to point that out to her NOW, then you most definitely have no business being married. To anyone. You have a responsibility to the person you love to take care of them when they can't take care of themselves, especially when they are too deep into the forest to see the trees - or even when they aren't as fun as they used to be.
Life is not happy happy joy joy. And marriage certainly isn't all the time. But is sounds as if you've not really brought your concerns to her. If you want to give the relationship a chance as you say you do in your follow-up, I think you need to be brutally honest with each other. And that's something that I don't think you've done yet.
But if you feel that you can't or don't want to step up to do any of this, then you owe it to her to step off now. Don't try and be nice and stick around. You're not doing anybody any favours. Find somebody else that meets your needs more appropriately and being the cute and fabulous girl you say she is, I'm sure she will, too.
Life is too short for such indecision.
posted by dancinglamb at 5:06 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
Put the shoe on the other foot, and consider that she might not want to spend the rest of her days feeling as trapped with somebody that doesn't make her happy, or fulfilled (yeah, yeah, putting aside the whole you can only make yourself happy thing).
Now, that being said. It certainly sounds as if your fiancee is battling some significant depression and needs to address that as a foremost concern. But if you can't find it within yourself to point that out to her NOW, then you most definitely have no business being married. To anyone. You have a responsibility to the person you love to take care of them when they can't take care of themselves, especially when they are too deep into the forest to see the trees - or even when they aren't as fun as they used to be.
Life is not happy happy joy joy. And marriage certainly isn't all the time. But is sounds as if you've not really brought your concerns to her. If you want to give the relationship a chance as you say you do in your follow-up, I think you need to be brutally honest with each other. And that's something that I don't think you've done yet.
But if you feel that you can't or don't want to step up to do any of this, then you owe it to her to step off now. Don't try and be nice and stick around. You're not doing anybody any favours. Find somebody else that meets your needs more appropriately and being the cute and fabulous girl you say she is, I'm sure she will, too.
Life is too short for such indecision.
posted by dancinglamb at 5:06 PM on August 6, 2009 [1 favorite]
I don't understand her problem most of the time (I try, really, I do). We have it good. We're both employed, no debt, lots of money in the bank.
I take all things in stride, and my philosophy is to make lemonade from lemons. I never ever get depressed, discouraged, whatever -- there is a silver lining to everything in my world.
Being depressed is not "wrong" any more than not being depressed is "right." I don't know if the two of you would be better off together or apart, but I think if you want to work things out--or even just sort out your reasons for breaking up--you need to drop this "get over it" attitude. "I try, I really do" sounds so insincere: you seem to have zero empathy for her. You know how you would (or think you would) feel in her shoes and it doesn't sound like you can set that aside for long enough to just accept that she feels depressed and isolated and jealous and whatever else. She may not be handling her feelings in the best way, and she may need individual therapy, and she may even need to be told "I need you to do something about this; I will support you fully, but I can't just keep on like we've been doing"--but I think you absolutely need to stop telling her how to feel, and you need to stop thinking your feelings are right and hers are wrong, and if she would just buck up and believe that then your relationship problems would be solved.
posted by Meg_Murry at 5:14 PM on August 6, 2009
I take all things in stride, and my philosophy is to make lemonade from lemons. I never ever get depressed, discouraged, whatever -- there is a silver lining to everything in my world.
Being depressed is not "wrong" any more than not being depressed is "right." I don't know if the two of you would be better off together or apart, but I think if you want to work things out--or even just sort out your reasons for breaking up--you need to drop this "get over it" attitude. "I try, I really do" sounds so insincere: you seem to have zero empathy for her. You know how you would (or think you would) feel in her shoes and it doesn't sound like you can set that aside for long enough to just accept that she feels depressed and isolated and jealous and whatever else. She may not be handling her feelings in the best way, and she may need individual therapy, and she may even need to be told "I need you to do something about this; I will support you fully, but I can't just keep on like we've been doing"--but I think you absolutely need to stop telling her how to feel, and you need to stop thinking your feelings are right and hers are wrong, and if she would just buck up and believe that then your relationship problems would be solved.
posted by Meg_Murry at 5:14 PM on August 6, 2009
Holy shit, did I write this eight years ago and it just now got posted?
I'm not telling you to you DTMF, but I am suggesting in the loudest voice I can without shouting: Do Not Marry This Person. Not under these circumstances. Not until you know who she actually is. If she's emotionally stable and worth the next fifty years of your life, she'll stick around for a couple until you're sure you're both in the right place to do this.
Red flags, most of which I recognize almost verbatim:
- She seemed happy when our relationship was new, but then she sank into depression and nothing seems to fix it. (Hint: she was always depressed -- the new relationship just gave her hope for a while, until she realized it couldn't actually fix her. I bet if you look closely at her life pre-you and read between the lines, it'll resemble this "new" person, not the one you fell in love with).
- She panicked when you weren't there, going so far as to move cross-country to try to rectify the loss (Hint: you were already becoming her support system, even this early on)
- She tries to change everything about her life: moving, moving again, dreaming of new situations (rural living), dreaming of old situations (west coast), all in an attempt to find happiness. (Hint: happiness doesn't work that way, as many cliches will tell you -- and they're right) (Hint 2: this won't stop: there'll always be something new that'll make her happy -- new job, or kids, or new hobby, etc -- only it never will)
- She's always mopey and negative, to the point that she's draining your energy
- She can't find anything she really like in life: she hates her job, she doesn't seem to be able to form long-term friendships, she quits long-term interests for no real reason (yoga)
- She suffers from low self esteem, depression, anxiety, inability to socialize, and chronic indecision
- You don't fight (if I had to guess, it's because she's afraid of confrontation and you're afraid of making her issues worse)
- She has little or no interest in sex
This describes my fiancee eight years ago, to a "t" -- and my wife over the intervening eight years has only sunk deeper into despair. You cannot fix her problems, please do make yourself believe you can -- I'm sure you rock, but if you think you can fix her, you're deluding yourself. You could actually make things worse, despite the most honorable of intentions.
You see the issues more clearly than I did at the time, so take that wisdom and Slow Things The Hell Down. Yes, breaking off the engagement will be awkward, embarrassing, and potentially painful. Marrying her could well turn out 10x worse, though, and 100x harder to fix. This is your life: do the right thing, and take the time you need to make sure you know exactly who this person is.
Want to know the alternative? Read my question history.
Still don't buy it? Let me leave you with a few question to ask yourself, stuff you didn't cover in your description but I bet I know the answers to:
- Do you see her spending her life supporting you as much as you support her? Do you, as a couple, spend as much time following what makes you happy as you do avoiding what makes her depressed?
- Can you truly be yourself around her, or do you walk on eggshells and feel the need to act like somebody else to avoid making her problems worse?
- Do you feel that she loves, trusts, and respects you? Or do you feel she depends on you, practically and emotionally, but that her desires, feelings, opinions, beliefs, and preferences are the ones that really matter to her?
posted by UtterlyDrained at 5:40 PM on August 6, 2009 [5 favorites]
I'm not telling you to you DTMF, but I am suggesting in the loudest voice I can without shouting: Do Not Marry This Person. Not under these circumstances. Not until you know who she actually is. If she's emotionally stable and worth the next fifty years of your life, she'll stick around for a couple until you're sure you're both in the right place to do this.
Red flags, most of which I recognize almost verbatim:
- She seemed happy when our relationship was new, but then she sank into depression and nothing seems to fix it. (Hint: she was always depressed -- the new relationship just gave her hope for a while, until she realized it couldn't actually fix her. I bet if you look closely at her life pre-you and read between the lines, it'll resemble this "new" person, not the one you fell in love with).
- She panicked when you weren't there, going so far as to move cross-country to try to rectify the loss (Hint: you were already becoming her support system, even this early on)
- She tries to change everything about her life: moving, moving again, dreaming of new situations (rural living), dreaming of old situations (west coast), all in an attempt to find happiness. (Hint: happiness doesn't work that way, as many cliches will tell you -- and they're right) (Hint 2: this won't stop: there'll always be something new that'll make her happy -- new job, or kids, or new hobby, etc -- only it never will)
- She's always mopey and negative, to the point that she's draining your energy
- She can't find anything she really like in life: she hates her job, she doesn't seem to be able to form long-term friendships, she quits long-term interests for no real reason (yoga)
- She suffers from low self esteem, depression, anxiety, inability to socialize, and chronic indecision
- You don't fight (if I had to guess, it's because she's afraid of confrontation and you're afraid of making her issues worse)
- She has little or no interest in sex
This describes my fiancee eight years ago, to a "t" -- and my wife over the intervening eight years has only sunk deeper into despair. You cannot fix her problems, please do make yourself believe you can -- I'm sure you rock, but if you think you can fix her, you're deluding yourself. You could actually make things worse, despite the most honorable of intentions.
You see the issues more clearly than I did at the time, so take that wisdom and Slow Things The Hell Down. Yes, breaking off the engagement will be awkward, embarrassing, and potentially painful. Marrying her could well turn out 10x worse, though, and 100x harder to fix. This is your life: do the right thing, and take the time you need to make sure you know exactly who this person is.
Want to know the alternative? Read my question history.
Still don't buy it? Let me leave you with a few question to ask yourself, stuff you didn't cover in your description but I bet I know the answers to:
- Do you see her spending her life supporting you as much as you support her? Do you, as a couple, spend as much time following what makes you happy as you do avoiding what makes her depressed?
- Can you truly be yourself around her, or do you walk on eggshells and feel the need to act like somebody else to avoid making her problems worse?
- Do you feel that she loves, trusts, and respects you? Or do you feel she depends on you, practically and emotionally, but that her desires, feelings, opinions, beliefs, and preferences are the ones that really matter to her?
posted by UtterlyDrained at 5:40 PM on August 6, 2009 [5 favorites]
I don't understand her problem most of the time (I try, really, I do). We have it good. We're both employed, no debt, lots of money in the bank.
Imagine she was constantly wearing sunglasses, and you said, "I don't understand why she thinks it's so dark all the time (I try, I really do). It's bright in here. The light is on, the walls are white, there's lots of sunlight streaming in through the windows."
None of those things are the problem. The problem is the filter that she sees everything through when she's depressed. It's paralysing her. It's got her back up against the wall. And yes, it's wearing on you as well.
If you really want to give this thing a shot, then start reading up (lots of great depression threads on this site!), start talking about it, bring it up in couple's therapy, go to therapy yourself to learn to deal with it and how to help her help herself.
If you can have an honest conversation with her where you tell her that you're worried about her, that she's awesome and you hate to see her so unhappy, that this is wearing on you and you fear for the relationship but you really want to put your best foot forward, and then really hear her response, you will be half-way there. But you really have to realise that as much as this sucks for you, it's way worse for her. Have some compassion for those of us whose brains hide the silver lining and make all those clouds into ominous thunderclouds.
This may be helpful: Do You Love Someone Who Suffers From Depression? from Mental Health Matters
Imagine she was constantly wearing sunglasses, and you said, "I don't understand why she thinks it's so dark all the time (I try, I really do). It's bright in here. The light is on, the walls are white, there's lots of sunlight streaming in through the windows."
None of those things are the problem. The problem is the filter that she sees everything through when she's depressed. It's paralysing her. It's got her back up against the wall. And yes, it's wearing on you as well.
If you really want to give this thing a shot, then start reading up (lots of great depression threads on this site!), start talking about it, bring it up in couple's therapy, go to therapy yourself to learn to deal with it and how to help her help herself.
If you can have an honest conversation with her where you tell her that you're worried about her, that she's awesome and you hate to see her so unhappy, that this is wearing on you and you fear for the relationship but you really want to put your best foot forward, and then really hear her response, you will be half-way there. But you really have to realise that as much as this sucks for you, it's way worse for her. Have some compassion for those of us whose brains hide the silver lining and make all those clouds into ominous thunderclouds.
This may be helpful: Do You Love Someone Who Suffers From Depression? from Mental Health Matters
"Sometimes the spouse of a depressed partner becomes depressed as a result of living within a "depressed lifestyle" for too long. Depression is said to be contagious and can become a shroud over the spouse or family. It's also vital to consider that depression may not only be genetic, but it can also be taught. You heard me right. For instance, our children's most powerful classroom is the home. Both "Nature and Nurture" contribute to depression."posted by heatherann at 6:26 PM on August 6, 2009
I'm in agreement with Anniecat that you seem unready for marriage, in general. You seem to expect marriage to be one non-stop seventh date of rapture, butterflies and simpatico attitudes, and assertions like "I never ever get depressed, discouraged [...] [I]wouldn't change a thing in my past" do not make you sound as emotionally golden as they make you seem, well, superficial and imperceptive. I’m not being flip here, if you honestly have no regrets at all in your life then it is possible, perhaps, that: A) You’ve not yet lived enough; B) You’re the kind of person who thinks that nothing is ever their fault, or C) You’re not completely honest. …Not one of these traits spell Ready for Marriage.
I think that the first party you should break up with is your parents. Seriously. 31 is too old to be so concerned about what one’s parents will think or do, and breaking that apron string won’t be easy, I know, but it will make you a better man.
posted by applemeat at 6:31 PM on August 6, 2009 [4 favorites]
I think that the first party you should break up with is your parents. Seriously. 31 is too old to be so concerned about what one’s parents will think or do, and breaking that apron string won’t be easy, I know, but it will make you a better man.
posted by applemeat at 6:31 PM on August 6, 2009 [4 favorites]
and I know from past experience that I'm good in bed
Well, were it possible for this to be objective, that might true. But the thing is, from past experience you've been good in bed with those partners. Sorry to harsh your mellow, you're not good in bed with her, and you need to accept that you're just as clueless as she is as to what she needs to address the sexual end of things.
I still like her (a lot) as a person, I just don't think we are compatible in a relationship.
Well, I think you hit the crux of things here. There are tons of people I like (and love) as people, who I KNOW I would not be compatible with in a relationship.
Don't worry about what your friends/parents/etc. will think - if you're not going to be able to make the relationship work, let it go and move on. It's YOUR life, not theirs.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:50 PM on August 6, 2009
Well, were it possible for this to be objective, that might true. But the thing is, from past experience you've been good in bed with those partners. Sorry to harsh your mellow, you're not good in bed with her, and you need to accept that you're just as clueless as she is as to what she needs to address the sexual end of things.
I still like her (a lot) as a person, I just don't think we are compatible in a relationship.
Well, I think you hit the crux of things here. There are tons of people I like (and love) as people, who I KNOW I would not be compatible with in a relationship.
Don't worry about what your friends/parents/etc. will think - if you're not going to be able to make the relationship work, let it go and move on. It's YOUR life, not theirs.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:50 PM on August 6, 2009
It's so hard to judge from words on a screen. I'm sorry for saying this, but here is my honest reaction:
If I were your fiance, I would not want to marry you after reading what you've written here. I would think that you're right when you say that you don't understand me, that you seem to have no empathy for me, that you blame me for feelings that are to some extent currently beyond my control, that you're not someone I can trust to be with me through thick and thin. For me, at least, it wouldn't be enough love. You can't just love the best of someone. You have to love the worst, too. I hope to someday marry a man who, if I got sick, would be willing to take care of me even if I were vomiting and incontinent. I hope to marry a man who would be patient with me if I got sick in ways that are invisible - chronic, undiagnosable pain, or depression. You can't see someone's depression (unlike a broken leg, or a tumor on a scan), so it's much harder to be patient and caring when your partner is depressed. It sounds like you aren't capable of giving this woman that level of devotion. So I wouldn't want to marry you. That's me.
Maybe it's just her. Maybe she isn't right for you. Maybe you'll meet a woman whom you love so passionately and unconditionally that it wouldn't be a dealbreaker if you had to deal with her emotional problems.
Maybe it's you. Maybe emotional problems aren't your forte, and you need to find someone who is lucky enough to have an easy and untroubled psyche.
Either way, if it were me, I wouldn't want to marry you, if you wrote this about me.
For what that's worth.
posted by prefpara at 7:02 PM on August 6, 2009 [13 favorites]
If I were your fiance, I would not want to marry you after reading what you've written here. I would think that you're right when you say that you don't understand me, that you seem to have no empathy for me, that you blame me for feelings that are to some extent currently beyond my control, that you're not someone I can trust to be with me through thick and thin. For me, at least, it wouldn't be enough love. You can't just love the best of someone. You have to love the worst, too. I hope to someday marry a man who, if I got sick, would be willing to take care of me even if I were vomiting and incontinent. I hope to marry a man who would be patient with me if I got sick in ways that are invisible - chronic, undiagnosable pain, or depression. You can't see someone's depression (unlike a broken leg, or a tumor on a scan), so it's much harder to be patient and caring when your partner is depressed. It sounds like you aren't capable of giving this woman that level of devotion. So I wouldn't want to marry you. That's me.
Maybe it's just her. Maybe she isn't right for you. Maybe you'll meet a woman whom you love so passionately and unconditionally that it wouldn't be a dealbreaker if you had to deal with her emotional problems.
Maybe it's you. Maybe emotional problems aren't your forte, and you need to find someone who is lucky enough to have an easy and untroubled psyche.
Either way, if it were me, I wouldn't want to marry you, if you wrote this about me.
For what that's worth.
posted by prefpara at 7:02 PM on August 6, 2009 [13 favorites]
If you are not sure then don't get married. Its that simple. Better a broken engagement than a marriage, no?
I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this before (I haven't read ALL responses) but this is as much about you as the girl you have described. Sure she has issues but what about yours? Do you bail out on people you 'love'? Depression can strike anyone at anytime as can a million other afflictions. But do you bail out if something like this happens ten/twenty years into a marriage? You either love someone or you don't. Saying you love someone when your actions say otherwise can itself be categorized as fraud.
Goodluck.
posted by xm at 7:30 PM on August 6, 2009 [2 favorites]
I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this before (I haven't read ALL responses) but this is as much about you as the girl you have described. Sure she has issues but what about yours? Do you bail out on people you 'love'? Depression can strike anyone at anytime as can a million other afflictions. But do you bail out if something like this happens ten/twenty years into a marriage? You either love someone or you don't. Saying you love someone when your actions say otherwise can itself be categorized as fraud.
Goodluck.
posted by xm at 7:30 PM on August 6, 2009 [2 favorites]
You may or may not be a jerk as some people think. I have no idea. But I do want to say - don't marry someone you don't like. We all have people that we love, but don't actually like. I don't really know if you are a fair weather friend or not in relationships - whatever - but I strongly believe that if you don't like being with her and being around her and you don't enjoy the time together, no matter how much you love her, don't get married. I really think it's a mistake to marry someone you don't LIKE, no matter how much you love them.
posted by gt2 at 7:48 PM on August 6, 2009
posted by gt2 at 7:48 PM on August 6, 2009
This sounds just like this girl I was just dating. I wish I had more insight then that, but either option is gonna be tough.
posted by ihope at 7:49 PM on August 6, 2009
posted by ihope at 7:49 PM on August 6, 2009
I think you've solved your own problem by writing this here in a place you know she reads, "from time to time".
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:52 PM on August 6, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by SkylitDrawl at 7:52 PM on August 6, 2009 [5 favorites]
1. Don't fall for the sunk costs fallacy. If continuing is worse for you than leaving, then leave. Don't change the weights by including the time you've already spent, or you'll basically be "throwing good money after bad".
2. Don't ever worry about what other people think. This is your life, you only get one. Don't make yourself miserable for what anyone else thinks. You're not a failure, and that will be borne out when you meet someone else, and it works.
3. It seems like she is having some trouble finding both her identity, and a sense of what she likes and doesn't like. It's possible that she may never really figure it out. It's also possible that she's suffering from Depression. Unfortunately, you can't command someone to be happy, so it's up to you whether you believe that she can improve with therapy/psych treatment, or if this is how she is - and it's the hand you've been dealt.
Think on this for a few days, then talk to her about how you feel - specifically about her inability to feel happy and secure. If you don't think that she's ever going to find her way, then it's probably time to leave.
Good luck to you. This clearly isn't easy for you.
posted by Citrus at 7:16 AM on August 7, 2009
2. Don't ever worry about what other people think. This is your life, you only get one. Don't make yourself miserable for what anyone else thinks. You're not a failure, and that will be borne out when you meet someone else, and it works.
3. It seems like she is having some trouble finding both her identity, and a sense of what she likes and doesn't like. It's possible that she may never really figure it out. It's also possible that she's suffering from Depression. Unfortunately, you can't command someone to be happy, so it's up to you whether you believe that she can improve with therapy/psych treatment, or if this is how she is - and it's the hand you've been dealt.
Think on this for a few days, then talk to her about how you feel - specifically about her inability to feel happy and secure. If you don't think that she's ever going to find her way, then it's probably time to leave.
Good luck to you. This clearly isn't easy for you.
posted by Citrus at 7:16 AM on August 7, 2009
I've been thinking a lot about this question because, frankly, I see a lot of myself in your girlfriend - depression, unrelenting work stress, telecommuting and social anxiety resulting in few friends, &c. Even with the best of attitudes and the best of mental health care, it can be incredibly hard. It's like a constant swim against the current and it can easily pull you under.
As a person who struggles with depression, the absolute last thing I'd want is to drag someone I loved down with me. I wouldn't wish depression on anyone. And it's a shitty feeling to believe, on top of the usual horrid self-esteem thoughts that accompany depression, that you're just emotional ballast and people would be happier if you weren't around.
The other absolute last thing I'd want is a partner who just didn't get it. You admit that you don't understand. You've got this laid-back, peachy-keen, smiles-go-for-miles, oh-boy-time-to-make-lemonade-again attitude towards life, and you say you've never been depressed and things don't get you down. If that's the truth, then that's wonderful for you. Do you know how fucking lucky you are, never to have let your neurochemicals or your misfortunes get the best of you? If overcoming depression was as simple for others as it is for you, no one would be depressed.
And if your fiancee could put on a happy-fun-person guise, as you accuse her of doing, don't you think she could do that just as easily now? If it's as simple as just deciding to be happy, why would she choose to be miserable? That makes no sense.
Ultimately, her depression is her struggle. You can support her, but she has to dig her own way out. If you do stay together, you two are going to need to have a long talk about how you can overcome this, what you need from her and what she needs from you. This will require patience and effort from both of you.
As it stands, no, I don't think marriage is a good idea for either of you. The vow/cliche is "for better or for worse," and this is the "for worse" part. The depressed romantic in me is hoping you will both be able to work through it, but it will be a lot of work.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:19 AM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
As a person who struggles with depression, the absolute last thing I'd want is to drag someone I loved down with me. I wouldn't wish depression on anyone. And it's a shitty feeling to believe, on top of the usual horrid self-esteem thoughts that accompany depression, that you're just emotional ballast and people would be happier if you weren't around.
The other absolute last thing I'd want is a partner who just didn't get it. You admit that you don't understand. You've got this laid-back, peachy-keen, smiles-go-for-miles, oh-boy-time-to-make-lemonade-again attitude towards life, and you say you've never been depressed and things don't get you down. If that's the truth, then that's wonderful for you. Do you know how fucking lucky you are, never to have let your neurochemicals or your misfortunes get the best of you? If overcoming depression was as simple for others as it is for you, no one would be depressed.
And if your fiancee could put on a happy-fun-person guise, as you accuse her of doing, don't you think she could do that just as easily now? If it's as simple as just deciding to be happy, why would she choose to be miserable? That makes no sense.
Ultimately, her depression is her struggle. You can support her, but she has to dig her own way out. If you do stay together, you two are going to need to have a long talk about how you can overcome this, what you need from her and what she needs from you. This will require patience and effort from both of you.
As it stands, no, I don't think marriage is a good idea for either of you. The vow/cliche is "for better or for worse," and this is the "for worse" part. The depressed romantic in me is hoping you will both be able to work through it, but it will be a lot of work.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:19 AM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
You started by asking if you should break it off, and ended by asking how you will remain friends with her afterwards. I think you've already made up your mind...
What I think you should do is fall in love with a self-centered, shallow woman. You should move across the country for her, and work a job where you get to see no one while she goes to school. You should stay home while she goes out with her "guy friends" and travels and pretend to like it. You should make a serious commitment to her, buy a house with her, become slowly miserable, and have the pleasure of being dumped on your ass for not being a positive, upbeat person.
I can't really tell whether you're a jerk or not just from this post, but I get a serious "this is a shallow guy" vibe. I wonder if you can see things from her perspective (or care to) at all? I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to be this harsh. Your post doesn't warrant it. I just have a gut feeling based on what you did and did not write here that maybe you aren't ready for a serious relationship, let alone marriage.
posted by xammerboy at 10:02 AM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
What I think you should do is fall in love with a self-centered, shallow woman. You should move across the country for her, and work a job where you get to see no one while she goes to school. You should stay home while she goes out with her "guy friends" and travels and pretend to like it. You should make a serious commitment to her, buy a house with her, become slowly miserable, and have the pleasure of being dumped on your ass for not being a positive, upbeat person.
I can't really tell whether you're a jerk or not just from this post, but I get a serious "this is a shallow guy" vibe. I wonder if you can see things from her perspective (or care to) at all? I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to be this harsh. Your post doesn't warrant it. I just have a gut feeling based on what you did and did not write here that maybe you aren't ready for a serious relationship, let alone marriage.
posted by xammerboy at 10:02 AM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
1. nthing that she may be (and probably is) suffering from depression. if she's already in therapy, it might be time for her to consider meds. i am 100% a different person on meds than i am off -- which is to say, i am finally myself when i'm stable.
2. in no way can you just hope she will feel better. when you are depressed, it doesn't matter how much money you have, how awesome your job is, where you live... NOTHING feels right, nothing seems right, and everything feels impossible.
3. if you can't have sex with her (even though on her part it might be do to the depression) your relationship will never last anyway.
4. probably you need to break up with her, but it will be more to her benefit than yours at this point. you've more than proven that you have no patience for her, have no intention of compromising your life in the slightest, and that you are ready to bail when she is having serious problems. get out of her life.
posted by unlucky.lisp at 11:01 AM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
2. in no way can you just hope she will feel better. when you are depressed, it doesn't matter how much money you have, how awesome your job is, where you live... NOTHING feels right, nothing seems right, and everything feels impossible.
3. if you can't have sex with her (even though on her part it might be do to the depression) your relationship will never last anyway.
4. probably you need to break up with her, but it will be more to her benefit than yours at this point. you've more than proven that you have no patience for her, have no intention of compromising your life in the slightest, and that you are ready to bail when she is having serious problems. get out of her life.
posted by unlucky.lisp at 11:01 AM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
Anon: It's obvious that she's not happy with herself, for whatever reasons.
Are we -- despite our best efforts -- simply incompatible?
Maybe so, at least for now. I was in that place for a long time, and I wasn't compatible -- with anyone, as long as I remained that person. It took being on my own -- in my case, solo travel -- to become OK enough with myself to be OK with anyone else. It's a growing up thing. We do it when we're ready, where and how we're ready, at different times of our lives and in different circumstances. She might not be ready/able to partner anyone yet.
posted by TruncatedTiller at 11:38 AM on August 7, 2009
Are we -- despite our best efforts -- simply incompatible?
Maybe so, at least for now. I was in that place for a long time, and I wasn't compatible -- with anyone, as long as I remained that person. It took being on my own -- in my case, solo travel -- to become OK enough with myself to be OK with anyone else. It's a growing up thing. We do it when we're ready, where and how we're ready, at different times of our lives and in different circumstances. She might not be ready/able to partner anyone yet.
posted by TruncatedTiller at 11:38 AM on August 7, 2009
"I'm a very laid back person. I take all things in stride, and my philosophy is to make lemonade from lemons. I never ever get depressed, discouraged, whatever -- there is a silver lining to everything in my world."
This sounds like you would be incredibly annoying to live with. From this description I don't get the picture of a man who's learned to value what matters in life and keep things in perspective, but a guy who really hasn't encountered anything that's troubled him enough to stir his emotions deeply. Maturity, to me, is finding a way to be happy and content in life even after it's broken your heart and tossed things at you that you never thought you'd live through. Even given that she actually is intentionally being as negative as you describe her, you don't sound like you're really as emotionally mature as you think you are.
Regardless, you sound about as unenthusiastic about this girl as can be, so absolutely completely DO NOT marry her.
posted by MsMolly at 12:10 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
This sounds like you would be incredibly annoying to live with. From this description I don't get the picture of a man who's learned to value what matters in life and keep things in perspective, but a guy who really hasn't encountered anything that's troubled him enough to stir his emotions deeply. Maturity, to me, is finding a way to be happy and content in life even after it's broken your heart and tossed things at you that you never thought you'd live through. Even given that she actually is intentionally being as negative as you describe her, you don't sound like you're really as emotionally mature as you think you are.
Regardless, you sound about as unenthusiastic about this girl as can be, so absolutely completely DO NOT marry her.
posted by MsMolly at 12:10 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Yet she is cute as hell and has a physique that a lot of 30 year old girls would love to have.
I don't know whether this is relevant, but she's not a "30-year-old girl" -- she's a 30-year-old woman. (You refer to her as a "girl" another time as well.)
I don't mean to be nitpicky. I only bring it up because it's not clear that you see her as a fully three-dimensional human being. Your choice of language might be unconscious or innocent and might not necessarily reflect your way of looking at things, but I wanted to mention it.
posted by Tin Man at 2:12 PM on August 7, 2009
I don't know whether this is relevant, but she's not a "30-year-old girl" -- she's a 30-year-old woman. (You refer to her as a "girl" another time as well.)
I don't mean to be nitpicky. I only bring it up because it's not clear that you see her as a fully three-dimensional human being. Your choice of language might be unconscious or innocent and might not necessarily reflect your way of looking at things, but I wanted to mention it.
posted by Tin Man at 2:12 PM on August 7, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
This sounds like a tough situation for you. Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:28 PM on August 6, 2009