Bring us your car so we can search it
July 9, 2009 7:39 PM Subscribe
Indiana legal filter: My kid was charged with misdemeanor possession Tuesday night. But, that's not the crux of the question...
So, my kid was stopped by a small town officer because he had his bright lights on (I know...it's small town Indiana) Long-story-short, the found a couple grams of pot and a small pipe in the car. They didn't take him to the station, take his picture, or book him. They wrote a couple of citations and sent him home. Court date is in a month or so.
The step parent of a friend of his is an officer in the town and he got a message to my kid that the police may contact my kid in a couple of days to have him bring the car back to the station. We're assuming the intent would be to search it more thoroughly, even though several days (and a thorough cleaning) have passed.
My question is, obviously, is that even legal? And, what sense would it make to bring a car in several days after the incident? And, since the car is actually owned by me, wouldn't they actually have to contact me?
Obviously, this is our first involvement with the law, so we really have no idea what's what.
So, my kid was stopped by a small town officer because he had his bright lights on (I know...it's small town Indiana) Long-story-short, the found a couple grams of pot and a small pipe in the car. They didn't take him to the station, take his picture, or book him. They wrote a couple of citations and sent him home. Court date is in a month or so.
The step parent of a friend of his is an officer in the town and he got a message to my kid that the police may contact my kid in a couple of days to have him bring the car back to the station. We're assuming the intent would be to search it more thoroughly, even though several days (and a thorough cleaning) have passed.
My question is, obviously, is that even legal? And, what sense would it make to bring a car in several days after the incident? And, since the car is actually owned by me, wouldn't they actually have to contact me?
Obviously, this is our first involvement with the law, so we really have no idea what's what.
It could be for a search, to seize it as the instrumentality of a crime, etc. But usually searches and seizures are done at the time of the arrest. Yes, get a lawyer.
However, if they are asking him to bring the car to the station, yes, that is legal. They can ask him to do just about anything. That's like asking someone to come down for questioning. If they ask you if they can search the car, and you say yes, the police have done nothing wrong.
But when all is said and done, I wouldn't worry much about this. Surely you have already hired a lawyer for your "kid" and you should ask the lawyer what you should do.
Suggestion: In your dealings with the police and prosecutors, you will make things much easier for your child if you refrain from adopting an adversarial role against the police on behalf of your child. You are most likely to get this charge resolved favorably for your child if you play the part of the parent outraged at your child's irresponsibility and criminality, and show the police that you are going to keep a close rein on your child for the foreseeable future. There is nothing more obnoxious to judges, prosecutors, police, and even defense attorneys, than parents who ought to be concerned about their child's drug problem, but instead are quibbling over technicalities because of their half-understood ideas about civil liberties. It invariably makes parents look like an ass. I'm not saying you're going to do this, but this is just a bit of advice.
posted by jayder at 8:05 PM on July 9, 2009 [15 favorites]
However, if they are asking him to bring the car to the station, yes, that is legal. They can ask him to do just about anything. That's like asking someone to come down for questioning. If they ask you if they can search the car, and you say yes, the police have done nothing wrong.
But when all is said and done, I wouldn't worry much about this. Surely you have already hired a lawyer for your "kid" and you should ask the lawyer what you should do.
Suggestion: In your dealings with the police and prosecutors, you will make things much easier for your child if you refrain from adopting an adversarial role against the police on behalf of your child. You are most likely to get this charge resolved favorably for your child if you play the part of the parent outraged at your child's irresponsibility and criminality, and show the police that you are going to keep a close rein on your child for the foreseeable future. There is nothing more obnoxious to judges, prosecutors, police, and even defense attorneys, than parents who ought to be concerned about their child's drug problem, but instead are quibbling over technicalities because of their half-understood ideas about civil liberties. It invariably makes parents look like an ass. I'm not saying you're going to do this, but this is just a bit of advice.
posted by jayder at 8:05 PM on July 9, 2009 [15 favorites]
seconding the lawyer suggestion
posted by zhang.chuck at 8:07 PM on July 9, 2009
posted by zhang.chuck at 8:07 PM on July 9, 2009
IANAL, ergo IANYL. AFAIK, it's legal for the police to *ask* you to bring the car to the station. Whether they can *compel* you to do so is another question; I would think that they would need a search warrant. You really need to get a lawyer, as everyone else has said.
That said, having been blinded many times by drivers who can't be bothered to dim their high beams when they encounter oncoming traffic, I'm not terribly upset to learn that somewhere, drivers who don't dim them are stopped.
posted by brianogilvie at 8:13 PM on July 9, 2009 [3 favorites]
That said, having been blinded many times by drivers who can't be bothered to dim their high beams when they encounter oncoming traffic, I'm not terribly upset to learn that somewhere, drivers who don't dim them are stopped.
posted by brianogilvie at 8:13 PM on July 9, 2009 [3 favorites]
Here's my read on it: some ham-handed small town cop is trying to do you both a favor by reporting that the car both of you know is clean is, in fact, clean. That he's doing it clumsily or ineffectually doesn't negate the gesture, in my mind.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:18 PM on July 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 8:18 PM on July 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
Here's my read on it: some ham-handed small town cop is trying to do you both a favor by reporting that the car both of you know is clean is, in fact, clean.
Equally likely that that ham-handed small town cop wants to get his hands on the car so that he can plant a substantial amount more weed in the car to get your son's charges upgraded to a felony, or to get the car seized under forfeiture laws.
Personally, I would take the car and move it somewhere secure, perhaps into a locked garage or storage unit, and then redirect the police inquiries to the competent legal representation that you've presumably already engaged.
posted by deadmessenger at 8:49 PM on July 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
Equally likely that that ham-handed small town cop wants to get his hands on the car so that he can plant a substantial amount more weed in the car to get your son's charges upgraded to a felony, or to get the car seized under forfeiture laws.
Personally, I would take the car and move it somewhere secure, perhaps into a locked garage or storage unit, and then redirect the police inquiries to the competent legal representation that you've presumably already engaged.
posted by deadmessenger at 8:49 PM on July 9, 2009 [1 favorite]
Oh, and if the police contact you or your son and you don't have your lawyer present, remember the three rules for dealing with anyone in law enforcement:
Rule 1) Shut up.
Rule 2) Shut the fuck up.
Rule 3) Shut the fuck up RIGHT NOW.
posted by deadmessenger at 8:52 PM on July 9, 2009 [44 favorites]
Rule 1) Shut up.
Rule 2) Shut the fuck up.
Rule 3) Shut the fuck up RIGHT NOW.
posted by deadmessenger at 8:52 PM on July 9, 2009 [44 favorites]
The lawyer suggestions are certainly good ones, but if you can't afford one, go to the library or internet and do some research on the pot possession laws in your state/county/town. America has wildly varying laws on possession of pot, and even two adjoining counties in any number of states could have a draconian penalty and fines (I think a felony is off the table but I do not trust prosecutors in the least), versus getting a slap on the wrist. So find out what the maximum penalty is. If even the maximum penalty is a wrist-slap, you can bite the bullet and just cooperate with whatever the police ask. If more severe, bite the financial bullet and lawyer up.
But yeah, they should be calling you as you are the car owner.
posted by zardoz at 8:58 PM on July 9, 2009
But yeah, they should be calling you as you are the car owner.
posted by zardoz at 8:58 PM on July 9, 2009
The step parent of a friend of his is an officer in the town...
This is the second most important thing you wrote. Find out what other information he is willing to get to you either directly or indirectly. Simply asking him if you should get a lawyer will tell you what he thinks is the severity of the whole thing. I would get a lawyer regardless of his answer, but the answer itself will be telling.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:24 PM on July 9, 2009
This is the second most important thing you wrote. Find out what other information he is willing to get to you either directly or indirectly. Simply asking him if you should get a lawyer will tell you what he thinks is the severity of the whole thing. I would get a lawyer regardless of his answer, but the answer itself will be telling.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:24 PM on July 9, 2009
This story is weird. It doesn't make sense that they would ask you to bring it in. They would just show up and search it, or pull you over. Regardless, there would need to be a warrant for something like that unless you're just going to give them carte blanche. Hey, it's possible.
Get the car detailed inside and out tomorrow.
posted by rhizome at 9:44 PM on July 9, 2009
Get the car detailed inside and out tomorrow.
posted by rhizome at 9:44 PM on July 9, 2009
The cop fucked up.
He should have collared your kid the night he was pulled over, but for some bizarre reason didn't. Now his superiors have bee up their ass thinking they can still seize your car in a "drug bust" and either keep it or sell it at police auction.
Do not comply. Contact a lawyer ASAP.
Furthermore, depending upon the nature of these "citations" I wouldn't say shit about the drugs if you can avoid it when interacting with the court system. Your kid has done just what the citation says, nothing more, nothing less. The citation is a legal document, hold on to it - it maybe the key to keeping your "kid" out of further trouble.
posted by wfrgms at 11:21 PM on July 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
He should have collared your kid the night he was pulled over, but for some bizarre reason didn't. Now his superiors have bee up their ass thinking they can still seize your car in a "drug bust" and either keep it or sell it at police auction.
Do not comply. Contact a lawyer ASAP.
Furthermore, depending upon the nature of these "citations" I wouldn't say shit about the drugs if you can avoid it when interacting with the court system. Your kid has done just what the citation says, nothing more, nothing less. The citation is a legal document, hold on to it - it maybe the key to keeping your "kid" out of further trouble.
posted by wfrgms at 11:21 PM on July 9, 2009 [2 favorites]
Please don't take any action, either positive or negative, until you have contacted a lawyer.
posted by Happydaz at 11:29 PM on July 9, 2009
posted by Happydaz at 11:29 PM on July 9, 2009
look i'm not from indiana,
but I am originally from a small place where the cops are not a separate social caste, but have to live in the community.
while things like: seize your car in a "drug bust" and either keep it or sell it at police auction. happen way too often,
in small country towns (depending of course on your town, your state and your country) its also the case that the police don't like to piss off the locals unnecessarily. My experience of cops in small country towns is that if you've done something illegal you'll get the sermon, maybe the get held up for at the station for a little while, but that you have to do something really stupid, possibly multiple times, or even worse be a rude visitor from the city for it to go all the way to court.
If I got this message from police in LA, i'd be worried.
But in a small country town, its very possible that they just want a pretext for you to come in, your son to get the lecture, and get it all over and done with without going to court.
But i'm from australia not indiana,
posted by compound eye at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
but I am originally from a small place where the cops are not a separate social caste, but have to live in the community.
while things like: seize your car in a "drug bust" and either keep it or sell it at police auction. happen way too often,
in small country towns (depending of course on your town, your state and your country) its also the case that the police don't like to piss off the locals unnecessarily. My experience of cops in small country towns is that if you've done something illegal you'll get the sermon, maybe the get held up for at the station for a little while, but that you have to do something really stupid, possibly multiple times, or even worse be a rude visitor from the city for it to go all the way to court.
If I got this message from police in LA, i'd be worried.
But in a small country town, its very possible that they just want a pretext for you to come in, your son to get the lecture, and get it all over and done with without going to court.
But i'm from australia not indiana,
posted by compound eye at 1:03 AM on July 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
The cops can ask you do anything they want. They can only order you to do things within their constitutional authority. The whole crooked cop thing doesn't strike me as terribly likely here. As compound eye indicated, small town cops don't strike me as working that way.
As to whether they can order you to do this, tThis case strikes me as borderline. You need a lawyer to deal with your situation.
There's a Fourth Amendment issue here, i.e. the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. The facts you've presented don't clearly say to me that the cop had any business searching the car your son was driving. They normally can't search your vehicle unless they have probable cause, and nothing you've said indicates to me that the cop had it. More than that, it doesn't strike me as clear cut that they've got probable cause to ask you to bring it in now, it having been quite a while since the stuff was found.
Make sure you discuss this with your lawyer, because you need one.
posted by valkyryn at 3:54 AM on July 10, 2009
As to whether they can order you to do this, tThis case strikes me as borderline. You need a lawyer to deal with your situation.
There's a Fourth Amendment issue here, i.e. the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures. The facts you've presented don't clearly say to me that the cop had any business searching the car your son was driving. They normally can't search your vehicle unless they have probable cause, and nothing you've said indicates to me that the cop had it. More than that, it doesn't strike me as clear cut that they've got probable cause to ask you to bring it in now, it having been quite a while since the stuff was found.
Make sure you discuss this with your lawyer, because you need one.
posted by valkyryn at 3:54 AM on July 10, 2009
i'd vacuum the car...
posted by dragonsi55 at 4:47 AM on July 10, 2009
posted by dragonsi55 at 4:47 AM on July 10, 2009
As another small-town resident, deadmessenger's suggestion that it's 'equally likely that that ham-handed small town cop wants to get his hands on the car so that he can plant a substantial amount more weed in the car to get your son's charges upgraded to a felony, or to get the car seized under forfeiture laws' strikes me as paranoid nuttiness. Your kid clearly screwed up, but the I doubt police are in the business of wrecking lives for fun and profit.
posted by jon1270 at 5:06 AM on July 10, 2009
posted by jon1270 at 5:06 AM on July 10, 2009
As another small-town resident, deadmessenger's suggestion that it's 'equally likely that that ham-handed small town cop wants to get his hands on the car so that he can plant a substantial amount more weed in the car to get your son's charges upgraded to a felony, or to get the car seized under forfeiture laws' strikes me as paranoid nuttiness. Your kid clearly screwed up, but the I doubt police are in the business of wrecking lives for fun and profit.
Absolutely false. Police departments in cities, towns, hamlets, villages, and unincorporated municipalities all use asset seizure. Whether it is a city of 1,000 or ten million makes little difference.
Your kid already fucked up by consenting to a search without a warrant or probably cause, because I know you taught him never to smoke weed in the car, have drugs or drug paraphernalia in sight (and preferably not to transport drugs in a car for any reason), right? Do not compound his mistake by thinking even for a moment that a law enforcement officer has your best interests at heart.
To them, your child is a criminal, and your car is a couple thousand bucks just waiting to be seized. A lawyer's bill will be small compared to the shit that can happen. Do not talk to the police. Do not let your son talk to the police. Call a lawyer right now. If you don't, you are exposing your family to severe personal and financial hardship.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:25 AM on July 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
Absolutely false. Police departments in cities, towns, hamlets, villages, and unincorporated municipalities all use asset seizure. Whether it is a city of 1,000 or ten million makes little difference.
Your kid already fucked up by consenting to a search without a warrant or probably cause, because I know you taught him never to smoke weed in the car, have drugs or drug paraphernalia in sight (and preferably not to transport drugs in a car for any reason), right? Do not compound his mistake by thinking even for a moment that a law enforcement officer has your best interests at heart.
To them, your child is a criminal, and your car is a couple thousand bucks just waiting to be seized. A lawyer's bill will be small compared to the shit that can happen. Do not talk to the police. Do not let your son talk to the police. Call a lawyer right now. If you don't, you are exposing your family to severe personal and financial hardship.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:25 AM on July 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
Uh, also that should be probable cause.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:30 AM on July 10, 2009
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:30 AM on July 10, 2009
The only piece of advice you should listen to on this thread is to get your own lawyer and listen to whatever they say to do. Take no other advice given here.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:40 AM on July 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
posted by Ironmouth at 6:40 AM on July 10, 2009 [5 favorites]
>They normally can't search your vehicle unless they have probable cause, and nothing you've said indicates to me that the cop had it.
Unless the cop said "You don't have any drugs or weapons in the car, do you? Well, then you won't mind if I just take a quick look to make sure, do you? Thanks, buddy, it'll just take a second." It would help to know if the kid consented to the search.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 7:32 AM on July 10, 2009
Unless the cop said "You don't have any drugs or weapons in the car, do you? Well, then you won't mind if I just take a quick look to make sure, do you? Thanks, buddy, it'll just take a second." It would help to know if the kid consented to the search.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 7:32 AM on July 10, 2009
As another small-town resident, deadmessenger's suggestion that it's 'equally likely that that ham-handed small town cop wants to get his hands on the car so that he can plant a substantial amount more weed in the car to get your son's charges upgraded to a felony, or to get the car seized under forfeiture laws' strikes me as paranoid nuttiness.
I guess you believe that your local small-town police department is honest and competent, then. The experience I've had with mine has been different. You've also not been reading the same articles that I have.
Your kid clearly screwed up, but the I doubt police are in the business of wrecking lives for fun and profit.
The doubt as to whether they're wrecking lives or not is enough to make me want to err on the side of caution and not voluntarily cooperate in any way shape or form without competent legal representation.
posted by deadmessenger at 10:23 AM on July 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
I guess you believe that your local small-town police department is honest and competent, then. The experience I've had with mine has been different. You've also not been reading the same articles that I have.
Your kid clearly screwed up, but the I doubt police are in the business of wrecking lives for fun and profit.
The doubt as to whether they're wrecking lives or not is enough to make me want to err on the side of caution and not voluntarily cooperate in any way shape or form without competent legal representation.
posted by deadmessenger at 10:23 AM on July 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
It would help to know if the kid consented to the search.
I can't imagine any kid getting pulled over in a small town at night would have the balls (or clarity of thought) to deny a search request from a cop. That just sounds like a recipe for escalation and disaster. Yeah...it's his right to deny it. On the ground, in the real world...I can't imagine a denial ending well for the kid.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:18 AM on July 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
I can't imagine any kid getting pulled over in a small town at night would have the balls (or clarity of thought) to deny a search request from a cop. That just sounds like a recipe for escalation and disaster. Yeah...it's his right to deny it. On the ground, in the real world...I can't imagine a denial ending well for the kid.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:18 AM on July 10, 2009 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure that any of us can definitely know what's going on, especially given that it's sort of third-hand info that's speculative.
I do know that if you have the slightest inclination that your kids needs a lawyer then you should get him one asap. For what it's worth, I would consult one if it were me or my kid. It can seem really tempting to say that you really don't need one and it's too much money etc etc, but having been a lawyer and seeing how it works for people with one and without one, I would always err on the side of getting one and getting one who is experienced in your jurisdiction and who has some good working relationships around there.
This article makes me cautious. I've only ever done federal forfeiture cases and even that was years ago, so I can't speak too much to that other than to say it would concern me.
posted by KAS at 12:53 PM on July 10, 2009
I do know that if you have the slightest inclination that your kids needs a lawyer then you should get him one asap. For what it's worth, I would consult one if it were me or my kid. It can seem really tempting to say that you really don't need one and it's too much money etc etc, but having been a lawyer and seeing how it works for people with one and without one, I would always err on the side of getting one and getting one who is experienced in your jurisdiction and who has some good working relationships around there.
This article makes me cautious. I've only ever done federal forfeiture cases and even that was years ago, so I can't speak too much to that other than to say it would concern me.
posted by KAS at 12:53 PM on July 10, 2009
I wish anonymous posters could answer their own threads. I'd love to get more details about what has happened.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:59 PM on July 10, 2009
posted by Thorzdad at 1:59 PM on July 10, 2009
The only piece of advice you should listen to on this thread is to get your own lawyer and listen to whatever they say to do. Take no other advice given here.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:40 AM on July 10 [2 favorites +] [!]
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:16 PM on July 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Ironmouth at 9:40 AM on July 10 [2 favorites +] [!]
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:16 PM on July 10, 2009 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A couple comments removed. If y'all really need to have a policy discussion re: legal disclaimers and such, please do so in Metatalk.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:45 PM on July 11, 2009
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:45 PM on July 11, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:42 PM on July 9, 2009