Combination lock recommendations (small, please).
December 1, 2004 2:09 AM Subscribe
Is there such a thing as a good, small, combination lock? [mi]
We wind up using tiny "luggage"-type locks for various purposes that work well for us. They don't go on anything that has to stay out in the world for a long time, of course, but for keeping people out for a little while, they're great, particularly because they can fit in some tight places that bigger locks won't. This is the kind we normally use - strong enough to last against anything but a cutter, but still tiny.
Now we have a need for resettable combination locks of about the same size. All I'm finding are a few 3-digit and 4-digit models, and those won't work for us - due to the circumstances (sorry for security through obscurity), someone might have an hour or two to pick at one of these locks without any other kind of tools.
It seems like you could find a random 3-digit combination in an average of 25 minutes or less, and a 4-digit one in a few hours. We don't need locks that will stand up to bolt cutters, but we do want locks that a bored person with nothing else to do can't pick through in 12-24 hours.
We need combinations, not keys, because we might have to call someone and have them open a lock when getting a key to them might not be feasible. I don't care about TSA approval or any of that stuff, I just want it to be non-trivial, have a resettable combination, and be small. Our keyed sample is about 1/2" by 3/4" by 1 1/4" when locked, and that's about perfect.
Does such a lock exist, or are we stuck with either keyed padlocks or trivially-easy combinations?
We wind up using tiny "luggage"-type locks for various purposes that work well for us. They don't go on anything that has to stay out in the world for a long time, of course, but for keeping people out for a little while, they're great, particularly because they can fit in some tight places that bigger locks won't. This is the kind we normally use - strong enough to last against anything but a cutter, but still tiny.
Now we have a need for resettable combination locks of about the same size. All I'm finding are a few 3-digit and 4-digit models, and those won't work for us - due to the circumstances (sorry for security through obscurity), someone might have an hour or two to pick at one of these locks without any other kind of tools.
It seems like you could find a random 3-digit combination in an average of 25 minutes or less, and a 4-digit one in a few hours. We don't need locks that will stand up to bolt cutters, but we do want locks that a bored person with nothing else to do can't pick through in 12-24 hours.
We need combinations, not keys, because we might have to call someone and have them open a lock when getting a key to them might not be feasible. I don't care about TSA approval or any of that stuff, I just want it to be non-trivial, have a resettable combination, and be small. Our keyed sample is about 1/2" by 3/4" by 1 1/4" when locked, and that's about perfect.
Does such a lock exist, or are we stuck with either keyed padlocks or trivially-easy combinations?
It seems like you could find a random 3-digit combination in an average of 25 minutes or less, and a 4-digit one in a few hours.
Actually, you can pick these locks in under a minute. They're worthless. Most locks are made terrible manufacturing tolerances -- the rotating digit combo locks are notorious for this. If you pull on the lock as if you were openning it, they usually "give" a little. Rotate the digit closest to the latch while pulling it in the direction of the latch (e.g., away from the other digits). When you have the right number, it will move a bit away from the other digits (sometimes as much as 1/8"). Continue until open.
And pin-tumblers are pretty worthless in small sizes, too. The small ones tend to have only one pin, so you can effectively open it with a paperclip. Combination locks with dials (like Master locks) are similarly useless (they can be openned faster than turning the correct combination with a thin shiv).
How much security do you need?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:22 AM on December 1, 2004
Actually, you can pick these locks in under a minute. They're worthless. Most locks are made terrible manufacturing tolerances -- the rotating digit combo locks are notorious for this. If you pull on the lock as if you were openning it, they usually "give" a little. Rotate the digit closest to the latch while pulling it in the direction of the latch (e.g., away from the other digits). When you have the right number, it will move a bit away from the other digits (sometimes as much as 1/8"). Continue until open.
And pin-tumblers are pretty worthless in small sizes, too. The small ones tend to have only one pin, so you can effectively open it with a paperclip. Combination locks with dials (like Master locks) are similarly useless (they can be openned faster than turning the correct combination with a thin shiv).
How much security do you need?
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:22 AM on December 1, 2004
It really, really depends on what you're protecting and where it is. To be honest, any small metal lock is going to be a good deterrent to the casual passer-by. If you're in a high-traffic public area, think higher security.
Bottom line, though- if someone really wants to get your stuff, any consumer grade security can be foiled. If the lock's too strong to break, the latch can often be exploited. Or you break the box.
posted by mkultra at 6:52 AM on December 1, 2004
Bottom line, though- if someone really wants to get your stuff, any consumer grade security can be foiled. If the lock's too strong to break, the latch can often be exploited. Or you break the box.
posted by mkultra at 6:52 AM on December 1, 2004
Response by poster: Thanks for the tips on safety, but the small keyed locks really do work in our situations (it's not luggage they're protecting, so cutting through the stuff around the lock is not an option), and they won't be forced open.
I'm really just looking for a combination lock that's as good as the linked-to keyed lock, with a combination that can't be flushed out in a trivial amount of time like 24 hours. So far, I'm guessing there isn't one. *sigh*
posted by mdeatherage at 9:36 AM on December 1, 2004
I'm really just looking for a combination lock that's as good as the linked-to keyed lock, with a combination that can't be flushed out in a trivial amount of time like 24 hours. So far, I'm guessing there isn't one. *sigh*
posted by mdeatherage at 9:36 AM on December 1, 2004
if you can find a larger combination lock that is suitable, you could perhaps use that to secure a box that contains the key to the smaller lock that secures whatever it is you want to secure. or even a small strongbox with a combination lock.
you could also use several locks to increase the time (unless there are several pairs of hands).
posted by andrew cooke at 11:33 AM on December 1, 2004
you could also use several locks to increase the time (unless there are several pairs of hands).
posted by andrew cooke at 11:33 AM on December 1, 2004
The short answer: No. There are no small combination locks that are worthwhile.
The long answer: You might need to reconsider your general approach to security. A small padlock might provide a couple of minutes' deterrence from casual fiddling (though combination padlocks are pickable -- by amateurs like me -- in 30 to 45 seconds), but if you're concerned about people with access to the lock for "12-24 hours," that's plenty of time to physically force the lock, pick it, or otherwise gain access.
Consider what you're trying to protect, and exactly what you're protecting it against.
"If the lock's too strong to break, the latch can often be exploited."
There is no greater truth than this. I can't tell you how many times I've seen heavy-duty deadbolts on flimsy doors or doors with glass panes. In fact, a house I used to live in had two deadbolts on a door with the hinge pins facing out. When I lost my keys, I was able to defeat the door in about 20 seconds, though it did help that a toolbox was sitting right next to the door.
posted by majick at 11:54 AM on December 1, 2004
The long answer: You might need to reconsider your general approach to security. A small padlock might provide a couple of minutes' deterrence from casual fiddling (though combination padlocks are pickable -- by amateurs like me -- in 30 to 45 seconds), but if you're concerned about people with access to the lock for "12-24 hours," that's plenty of time to physically force the lock, pick it, or otherwise gain access.
Consider what you're trying to protect, and exactly what you're protecting it against.
"If the lock's too strong to break, the latch can often be exploited."
There is no greater truth than this. I can't tell you how many times I've seen heavy-duty deadbolts on flimsy doors or doors with glass panes. In fact, a house I used to live in had two deadbolts on a door with the hinge pins facing out. When I lost my keys, I was able to defeat the door in about 20 seconds, though it did help that a toolbox was sitting right next to the door.
posted by majick at 11:54 AM on December 1, 2004
Response by poster: Thanks for the short answer, majick. I'd feared as much.
I still welcome any hints, though I'll note again that I'm not looking for a substitute for a padlock, or a bigger padlock, or anything like that - the small keyed locks are really exactly what we want, just in a way that we can tell someone how to open them over the phone without having any kind of key nearby.
Picking and forcing and those kinds of things are simply not at issue for this use. That may seem odd to you, but that's how it is.
posted by mdeatherage at 2:44 PM on December 1, 2004
I still welcome any hints, though I'll note again that I'm not looking for a substitute for a padlock, or a bigger padlock, or anything like that - the small keyed locks are really exactly what we want, just in a way that we can tell someone how to open them over the phone without having any kind of key nearby.
Picking and forcing and those kinds of things are simply not at issue for this use. That may seem odd to you, but that's how it is.
posted by mdeatherage at 2:44 PM on December 1, 2004
I've no idea whether this would satisfy your requirements, but you can get small disposable plastic padlocks. You don't unlock them; you just cut them off. A steak knife or pocket knife will do the job just fine. Each lock has a unique serial number in raised plastic, so you would know if someone cut off the lock and replaced it with another. If you're looking to deter thieves who plan to sneak in while you're gone and loot your valuables, these wouldn't work. But if you were looking to deter, say, overly curious children or a nosy roommate, this could be the answer.
If you need a source for these, let me know.
posted by Clay201 at 3:20 PM on December 1, 2004
If you need a source for these, let me know.
posted by Clay201 at 3:20 PM on December 1, 2004
Another idea would be to get one of those magnetic hide-a-key things. Depending on circumstances, you might be able to just have the key in there when others need access to it, and you can move it after each use, so someone can't come back and find it again.
posted by rorycberger at 6:32 PM on December 1, 2004
posted by rorycberger at 6:32 PM on December 1, 2004
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but, more importantly than that, it's normally trivial to cut through luggage with a knife (unless you're using metal cases) (it's not clear you're using this for luggage, i know).
so i think you may be focussing on the wrong things here. sorry to be off-topic as a consequence, and apologies if this doesn't apply in your case.
posted by andrew cooke at 3:42 AM on December 1, 2004