Attn Grammar Nerds! "To include" or "including"?
May 7, 2009 2:28 PM Subscribe
GrammarFilter: A co-worker regularly uses the phrase "to include" in sentences such as: "Max has achieved the goals, to include such-and-such." I suspect "including" should be used instead of "to include," since "to include" implies future tense but the verb is past tense. Am I right? If so, can anyone find a link that explains this? (Google results tended us use the phrase "to include" in their text, not as their content.)
Best answer: Unless I'm missing something, "to" implies the future, and could be read as "going to include."
So if Max is already done with the list, then you would say "including" or "which included."
If he hadn't even made the list yet, you could say, "he is making a list of goals, to include [x], [y] and [z]. Since the list doesn't exist yet, it makes sense to say the list will include those goals in the future.
But if he's already made the list and accomplished the goals, then "to" makes no sense to me.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:36 PM on May 7, 2009
So if Max is already done with the list, then you would say "including" or "which included."
If he hadn't even made the list yet, you could say, "he is making a list of goals, to include [x], [y] and [z]. Since the list doesn't exist yet, it makes sense to say the list will include those goals in the future.
But if he's already made the list and accomplished the goals, then "to" makes no sense to me.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:36 PM on May 7, 2009
It's not indicating future tense, though, so much as it's indicating the infinitive -- the act of including. (Right?)
I don't get that. And anyway, the problem still exists: there can be no "act of including" because the list-making and the doing is over and done with at this point.
The only way the use of the word "include" makes sense, talking about something in the past is in the sense of, "he accomplished a bunch of things, and now I'm going to give you some edited highlights, but not every single one.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:39 PM on May 7, 2009
I don't get that. And anyway, the problem still exists: there can be no "act of including" because the list-making and the doing is over and done with at this point.
The only way the use of the word "include" makes sense, talking about something in the past is in the sense of, "he accomplished a bunch of things, and now I'm going to give you some edited highlights, but not every single one.
posted by drjimmy11 at 2:39 PM on May 7, 2009
Best answer: Wiktionary.
What I often do if I want to see some real examples of educated English usage is do a Google search of a reasonably high-brow magazine that I happen to like. For instance, here are uses of different forms of "include" (including "including" (!) and "to include") in The New Republic. (Change that to site:theatlantic.com or site:newyorker.com any other publication with reliably good nonfiction writing.) You could show him some examples. You could even suggest that he look through them and try to find a single instance of his preferred usage -- I'm sure he won't find one.
The way he's phrasing it would be appropriate for a contract: "___ will build a house, to include a garage." In other words, future tense. It doesn't work with present or past tense.
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:42 PM on May 7, 2009
What I often do if I want to see some real examples of educated English usage is do a Google search of a reasonably high-brow magazine that I happen to like. For instance, here are uses of different forms of "include" (including "including" (!) and "to include") in The New Republic. (Change that to site:theatlantic.com or site:newyorker.com any other publication with reliably good nonfiction writing.) You could show him some examples. You could even suggest that he look through them and try to find a single instance of his preferred usage -- I'm sure he won't find one.
The way he's phrasing it would be appropriate for a contract: "___ will build a house, to include a garage." In other words, future tense. It doesn't work with present or past tense.
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:42 PM on May 7, 2009
To be clear, I'm not suggesting that "to include" is what you should generally use for the future tense. "Including" is appropriate even in future tense. I'm just saying that the only situation in which I could fathom using "to include" in this manner would be future tense. Even then, it seems oddly stilted and formal, which is why I gave the contract example.
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:49 PM on May 7, 2009
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:49 PM on May 7, 2009
In this case, yes, I'd go with "including." "To include" might be used in a job description or when the duties are otherwise defined. Using "to include" would be very unusual in that sentence.
posted by kindall at 3:34 PM on May 7, 2009
posted by kindall at 3:34 PM on May 7, 2009
Best answer: It sounds wrong to me. I think:
Max will achieve the goals, including such-and-such
Max will achieve the goals, to include such-and-such
Max has achieved the goals, including such-and-such
are all fine, but not:
*Max has achieved the goals, to include such-and-such.
Why? Maybe Wikipedia has the answer. in particular:
It [the infinitive] can be used like an adjective or adverb, expressing purpose or intent. So, "The letter says I'm to wait outside", or "He is the man to talk to", or "[In order] to meditate, one must free one's mind."
I think this is the use in "to include" above. "to include such-and-such" says, "I intend that the goals will include X, Y, and Z". But if the goals are already done, then it's not a question if intent anymore--it's a question of what the intent was when the goals were formulated.
posted by goingonit at 3:42 PM on May 7, 2009
Max will achieve the goals, including such-and-such
Max will achieve the goals, to include such-and-such
Max has achieved the goals, including such-and-such
are all fine, but not:
*Max has achieved the goals, to include such-and-such.
Why? Maybe Wikipedia has the answer. in particular:
It [the infinitive] can be used like an adjective or adverb, expressing purpose or intent. So, "The letter says I'm to wait outside", or "He is the man to talk to", or "[In order] to meditate, one must free one's mind."
I think this is the use in "to include" above. "to include such-and-such" says, "I intend that the goals will include X, Y, and Z". But if the goals are already done, then it's not a question if intent anymore--it's a question of what the intent was when the goals were formulated.
posted by goingonit at 3:42 PM on May 7, 2009
He has...including: sounds right. But why name what the list includes if you are only going to name one item?
posted by Postroad at 4:49 PM on May 7, 2009
posted by Postroad at 4:49 PM on May 7, 2009
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posted by mudpuppie at 2:34 PM on May 7, 2009