Lawyers of the hive mind: did you choose less debt or a higher ranked school?
April 4, 2009 1:35 PM   Subscribe

Another law school question: choose the cheaper, lower-ranked school with programs I'll like compared to the slightly more expensive, higher-ranked school? Important qualifier: I want to do public interest law.

After all the acceptances, waitlist notices, and rejections have come in, my two best choices are at two public schools: one ranked in the 30s in a different state, and one ranked in the high 50s in my current city. The school ranked in the 30s arguably is better overall, but a lot of of its students and grads stay in the same state. I'm not really sold on staying there after graduation for any significant amount of time, but I'm sure I'd enjoy my three years there.

The school ranked in the high 50s is here in my current city and has a pretty good reputation locally, especially for its public interest law programs, especially clinics. This seems to be a strong point for them, as the first school's clinics don't excite me that much. Also, this second school has a decent, but not extravagant LRAP, whereas the first's is minimal. I'm also not super-sold on staying here after graduation, but I think this school's degree (on the East Coast) is somewhat more portable, but I could be wrong.

I am committed to doing public interest law -- I'm not in this to make the big bucks at a big firm. It's not really a lifestyle I want. After reading The Trap by Daniel Brook, and hearing from other public interest lawyers, I am understandably uneasy about the debt and the possible influence it could have on life choices regarding starting a family, eventually owning a house, down the line. School no. 1 above (the higher ranked one), would be more expensive than School no. 2, where I'd get in-state tuition. I am also aware that I can take advantage of the provisions of the College Cost Reduction and Access Act (pdf) allowing for loan forgiveness after ten years of public interest work.

This thread was very helpful, and seemed to indicate that with public interest law, one should choose the school with the least amount of debt in the future. I know I'd get a good education at either one, and I've worked with lawyers who went to lower-ranked schools and have done just fine and are doing interesting things. At this point I'm leaning toward School no. 2, because of the emphasis on public interest experience there, along with solid connections to the city's public interest agencies for summer jobs and what not, but am a little nervous about passing up a higher ranked school. At some point, but not immediately, I think it'd be interesting to get into larger policy/advocacy work after some significant time spent in direct legal services.

I'd be interested to hear others' perspective on whether they chose less debt over a higher ranked school, or vice versa, and why. I'm open to all sorts of perspective as I make this important decision!
posted by midatlanticwanderer to Education (14 answers total)
 
I wouldn't be as worried about the rankings in comparing a school in the 30s versus a school in the 50s, particularly given your career goals.

If you wanted to do a clerkship or go to a big firm, then it would make a big difference whether you went to one of the top 10-15 schools versus something else. In this case, I think you should ignore the ranking and pick the school that fits your needs best.

(Just for the context, I was lucky enough to go to a top-10 school and do a clerkship, but did not do the big firm thing.)
posted by mikeand1 at 1:59 PM on April 4, 2009


I don't think the difference between 50-something and 30-something is enough to justify moving, paying more, and all that. I'd take the lower ranked school, especially with your interest in public interest.

I left a third-tier summer program when a 20-something grabbed me off the waiting list for the fall. I'm not even sure I made the right decision as I have 6-figures in debt and finished in the lower-middle of the class whereas my summer experience at the summer program indicated a considerably better finish and further scholarships (and possibly stipends) at the third-tier.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 2:01 PM on April 4, 2009


Congratulations on your acceptances! It's a little hard to tell how to answer without knowing more exactly how much your debt is going to be when you get out. Unfortunately, with public interest salaries (especially legal services) being what they are, you may have a high loan burden no matter which school you chose.

From the way you describe school 2's strong local reputation and clinics, it sounds like a good option for you. Ultimately, there's not that much difference between a school ranked in the 30s and a school ranked in the 50s -- the experience you get and the connections you make are going to be much more important. Furthermore, the lower ranking (and presumably lower average LSAT) of school 2 could work to your advantage if you study your ass off there and make law review easier than you could have at school 1.

Finally, you may want to broaden your horizons and consider for-profit plaintiffs-side work in addition to legal services. Just as rewarding, with better pay! And you may also want to keep an open mind to doing non-public interest work, for example, practicing law at a small to mid-sized firm. You may find that you like being a lawyer, and that helping people solve their problems is satisfying to you no matter if you're helping an architect navigate local zoning laws or helping a family keep their welfare benefits. There's room for being a good lawyer and a good person in many kinds of practice -- your options aren't just limited to legal aid and the big firms.

Good luck!
posted by footnote at 2:13 PM on April 4, 2009


Which school do you like the best? You're going to be spending three years there, and I'm not sure what price I would put on having gone to a school where anti-social, cutthroat competition wasn't tolerated by the student body.

That said, it's easy to give a knee-jerk "go to the cheaper school" response, but do keep in mind that there is a benefit to going to a more highly ranked school. If the difference between them, at the end of the 3 years is $10k, it's probably worth it to go to the better-ranked school. If the difference is $100k, that's something else entirely.

Also, understand that there's far, far more to the cost of law school than just tuition. "In state" in a big city can sometimes cost as much (or more) than going out of state in a small college town.

Another thing: saying you want to go into "public interest" is a lot like saying you want to be an "engineer". Unless you have a more specific goal (non-profits? public defender? government?) it's going to be difficult to compare the program and alumni support offerings.

You might also want to account for the fact that lots and lots of folks who think they know what they want to do before they start law school end up doing something else once they actually figure out what's going on.
posted by toomuchpete at 2:18 PM on April 4, 2009


I agree that the difference between the 30s and the 50s is not meaningful, especially compared to being in the city you want to be in and coming out with less debt. And I say that as someone who passed up a full scholarship at a top-20 school to go to a higher-ranked school.
posted by raf at 2:19 PM on April 4, 2009


When you're talking about schools in the 30s-to-50s range, region matters a great deal. The degree will be far more valuable in the city and state the school is in (likely not "the East Coast" generally) than anywhere outside that area. So if you're thinking of staying in the city you're in now long-term, that would be another mark in favor of the lower-ranked school.

I second the advice to keep an open mind -- partly because you might find you like something else better, but also because it can be hard to find a public-interest law job. There are fewer lawyers in public interest, yes, but also way fewer jobs.
posted by palliser at 2:46 PM on April 4, 2009


Response by poster: thanks for everyone's comments so far.

toomuchpete, you have a valid point. I do realize that plans can change, and am trying to keep an open mind about not holding on to one specific idea of what exact area of law I'll practice in. That said, I do know big firm corporate law isn't for me. I can see myself doing nonprofit or government work, and perhaps public defender.

The difference between the two would be about $20K-$25K, so not huge, but not small, either. The fact that School No. 1 has the minimal LRAP and not as solid public interest programs is tilting me toward No. 2 if you couldn't tell from my original post.

Good point, footnote, about considering small firm work. After a summer job as an intern at a small firm, I can see how the lifestyle would be more attractive, but it still felt kind of ridiculous to bill in 6-minute increments for my time as a lowly clerk/intern/assistant. But I won't totally eliminate the possibility.
posted by midatlanticwanderer at 2:49 PM on April 4, 2009


Have you checked into the loan repayment assistance programs at the various schools (outside of the College Cost Reduction and Access Act)?
posted by fructose at 3:28 PM on April 4, 2009


When you are comparing a school in the 30s and 50s ranking - rank doesn't matter. It's more regional.

Upon preview I realize 'palliser' said the same thing.

Schools in a particular city matter. For example, people in Houston think UH Law is like the most amazing thing ever. People in Dallas think SMU (Southern Methodist University) is godly.

Do not underestimate the pull these schools have in their particular cities. Lots of alumni mean lots of events and connections you can use to land the necessary internships and jobs you want.

The sad truth is that there are only a dozen or two schools that have national recognition. Those schools will help you get a job somewhere else than where you graduated. The general rule is to go to a school where you'd like to practice when you graduate. Or, decide on a city you want to be in that you already have close ties to.
posted by abdulf at 5:38 PM on April 4, 2009


Re-emphasizing palliser and abdulf: sad to say, you're far enough down in the rankings that each one is likely to have a better reputation where they're located than anywhere else. Notice that the one in the 30s mostly has its grads stay put. That's what happens if you go to a school not in the top 25.

Check this graph. It shows hiring distribution for BigLaw. I know that isn't what you're looking for, but to be honest, public interest jobs are getting increasingly competitive, particularly given that the big firms have laid of over 3600 attorneys in the past six months, plus 5300 staffers. Things aren't getting better either. So this year's graduating class of approximately 55,000 3Ls will be competing with not only each other and the normal liquidity in the legal market but a few thousand experienced attorneys from some of the most prestigious firms in the country. Which means that next year's grads will be competing with all of this year's grads that couldn't find jobs, plus any other experienced lawyers that get laid off between now and then. Given that the firms aren't hiring, guess where they're all applying? You guessed it: public interest.

At the same time, public interest jobs themselves are drying up, as state and local government budgets implode under falling property tax receipts. The Pennsylvania state government has instituted a hiring freeze, and I'd imagine they aren't alone.

Academically, the two schools you're looking at are probably a tossup. If all other things, i.e. whether you actually want to spend three years living in either place and are willing to settle there afterwards, are equal, pick the one that's going to leave you with the least amount of debt. Remember, $20-25k in debt reduction is the same as $200-250/month less in loan payments. If you're looking at jobs that pay $30-40k a year, that's actually a pretty big chunk of your salary.
posted by valkyryn at 6:15 PM on April 4, 2009


Best answer: In 1999, I was in precisely your position. Determined to enter the field of public interest law after graduation, I'd applied to and been accepted by a bunch of schools which varied by prestige, ranking, commitment to public interest, and tuition. The one difference was they were all in the same geographical area -- New York -- since that was where I focused my search. After a lot of thought, I picked the school with the deepest commitment to public interest law. It was also the school with the lowest tuition. It does not have an LRAP. I think I made the right decision.

You don't mention if you have any other educational loans or debt, but I think that having large amounts of debt when you graduate can make it very difficult to stick with your commitment to public interest law. You should consider starting salaries in the geographical area you're going to practice in, and make sure you'll be able to afford to pay off your loans on that salary. I know at least one person who went to a higher-ranked, more expensive law school and, despite his very real commitment to civil legal services, he felt he had no choice but to go work at big law to pay off his considerable educational debt. He's pretty miserable.

One last thing, by way of encouragement -- legal services jobs have always been competitive, even before this recession hit. I've worked in the same civil legal services office since I graduated seven years ago, and I've served on our hiring committee for about six of those. True, as valkyryn points out, we're being flooded with recently laid off Wall Street lawyers. However, we're very fond of new graduates who are truly committed to poverty law, and will always be more interested in a graduate from a public interest program with relevant summer experience in legal services than a corporate law associate who's only looking at us because he needs a job.

Good luck with your decision -- with luck, this recession will be over by the time you graduate, and at least some of these pressures will be removed.
posted by lassie at 7:21 PM on April 4, 2009


I would agree with the first commenter -- the drop from 10 to 30 is much bigger than the drop from 30 to 50... that being said, the public interest job market is pretty competitive too...
posted by paultopia at 12:29 AM on April 5, 2009


At this point, the best option is the least expensive option. Go where there is a commitment to public service, good clinical options, and a tradition of supporting public interest aspirations. Then, work like crazy and end up in the top 1/3 of your class. That will give you flexibility for all kinds of jobs, and credibility if you turn to "policy." (I guess that is a euphemism for not having to deal with needy clients.) Borrow as little as absolutely necessary -- give yourself the gift of as much freedom as possible upon graduation.
posted by Londonita at 6:00 PM on April 5, 2009


I chose the higher ranked school and, especially in this economy, don't regret it for a second. But our situations are not really similar at all.

I think that the difference between 30 and 50 isn't that great. You don't want to practice in 30's state. And you want to do public interest (meaning less debt and good clinics are both great.) For me, the lower-ranked school is a no-brainer.

Good luck and congratulations!!
posted by soonertbone at 8:18 PM on April 9, 2009


« Older ID these islands   |   Bloggersfilter, need your wisdom! Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.