Back flow preventer and legal liability...
February 2, 2009 5:46 PM Subscribe
Bubbling toilet and a back flow preventer!
Could we be held responsible for other units getting backups from their toilets if we put a back flow preventer on the plumbing?
I recently asked a question about our toilet which is backing up with suds (which destroyed our floor etc. and has happened more than 7 times). We live on the first floor, and we think it's likely a venting problem, and we've been told by city experts that a back flow preventer could solve the problem. We've told all of this to our condo board and building manger. But, our condo board is and building manager is useless and don't respond, even with letters sent by lawyers. We've talked to some plumbers who said it's possible for us to break up our floor and have a back flow preventer put on the stacks to prevent the pipes from backing up into our unit. We realize we shouldn't have to pay, but think it might be cheaper for us to pay for plumbing ourselves, than to pay for a lawyer to fight with them to fix the problem.
So, my question. If we were to put a back flow preventer on our unit (well, on the plumbing below our unit) this doesn't fix the plumbing problem and another unit might experience the backups we are having. Would we be responsible for their flooding and be held liable for their damages even though it's still building plumbing and the condo board refuses to solve the problem? What are some of the negative consequences that might arise if we go ahead with this? We're also not positive that the building will even let us do this anyway...
Feedback?
I recently asked a question about our toilet which is backing up with suds (which destroyed our floor etc. and has happened more than 7 times). We live on the first floor, and we think it's likely a venting problem, and we've been told by city experts that a back flow preventer could solve the problem. We've told all of this to our condo board and building manger. But, our condo board is and building manager is useless and don't respond, even with letters sent by lawyers. We've talked to some plumbers who said it's possible for us to break up our floor and have a back flow preventer put on the stacks to prevent the pipes from backing up into our unit. We realize we shouldn't have to pay, but think it might be cheaper for us to pay for plumbing ourselves, than to pay for a lawyer to fight with them to fix the problem.
So, my question. If we were to put a back flow preventer on our unit (well, on the plumbing below our unit) this doesn't fix the plumbing problem and another unit might experience the backups we are having. Would we be responsible for their flooding and be held liable for their damages even though it's still building plumbing and the condo board refuses to solve the problem? What are some of the negative consequences that might arise if we go ahead with this? We're also not positive that the building will even let us do this anyway...
Feedback?
I don't believe that "backflow preventer" is the phrase you're looking for. Backflow preventers are used in medical offices and chemical labs, to keep any nasty bits from getting into the water supply.
What you may be looking for is a "backwater valve". I still don't think that'll do it, but...
posted by notsnot at 6:26 PM on February 2, 2009
What you may be looking for is a "backwater valve". I still don't think that'll do it, but...
posted by notsnot at 6:26 PM on February 2, 2009
This seems like a better question to ask your lawyer than askmefi.
posted by alms at 6:35 PM on February 2, 2009
posted by alms at 6:35 PM on February 2, 2009
I would document what the problem is, what you intend to do about it, and when, and send that to the condo board, with something to the effect that if they have a better idea, they have until a date certain to respond with that. Then, after date certain, just do it.
posted by beagle at 7:07 PM on February 2, 2009
posted by beagle at 7:07 PM on February 2, 2009
notsnot, I deleted a diatribe about the proper use of 'backflow preventer', but thought it rather moot. glad you confirmed my thoughts. a simple backflow preventer can be attached to a garden hose outlet to disallow that hose you have in the fertilizer bucket siphoning the nasty stuff back into the system in the event of system suction. of course we digress, but I happened to sell the bloody things for a few years.
alms.. enough of the lawyers, please. it's hopefully a fix to a problem. don't bring fucking lawyers into it.
posted by Frasermoo at 7:27 PM on February 2, 2009
alms.. enough of the lawyers, please. it's hopefully a fix to a problem. don't bring fucking lawyers into it.
posted by Frasermoo at 7:27 PM on February 2, 2009
Frasermoo, if the question is
posted by alms at 8:09 PM on February 2, 2009
could we be held responsible for other units getting backups from their toilets if we put a back flow preventer on the plumbing?then the answer needs to be supplied by an attorney who has read the condo documents. Chill.
posted by alms at 8:09 PM on February 2, 2009
enough of the lawyers, please. it's hopefully a fix to a problem. don't bring fucking lawyers into it.
Uh, what?
The poster asks a question that can really only be answered authoritatively by an attorney licensed to practice in her jurisdiction . . . whatever your beef is with lawyers, it's not helping.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:45 PM on February 2, 2009
Uh, what?
The poster asks a question that can really only be answered authoritatively by an attorney licensed to practice in her jurisdiction . . . whatever your beef is with lawyers, it's not helping.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:45 PM on February 2, 2009
Legal issues aside, I share notsnot's skepticism that a backflow prevention device / backwater valve will do the job. I've never installed one, but my understanding is that they're intended to stop liquid sewage, not suds. A bunch of bubbles may not be enough to actuate one of these valves.
posted by jon1270 at 4:52 AM on February 3, 2009
posted by jon1270 at 4:52 AM on February 3, 2009
Best answer: If you put a steel door on your apartment that prevented a fire from spreading into your place, but your neighbor's place burned down would you be held liable? How about when your neighbor gets burglarized because they don't have good locks and you have deadbolts?
As long as you aren't causing the back-ups, then you wouldn't be responsible for them, right?
Still, I'd run this by your lawyers again. You might want to warn the other tenants that you are having this thing installed and that they may want to do so too, but otherwise the future back-ups are their problem.
posted by Pollomacho at 5:03 AM on February 3, 2009
As long as you aren't causing the back-ups, then you wouldn't be responsible for them, right?
Still, I'd run this by your lawyers again. You might want to warn the other tenants that you are having this thing installed and that they may want to do so too, but otherwise the future back-ups are their problem.
posted by Pollomacho at 5:03 AM on February 3, 2009
re-reading through clearer eyes today, my lawyer knee-jerk hatefest was somewhat uncalled for. apologies.
posted by Frasermoo at 12:58 PM on February 3, 2009
posted by Frasermoo at 12:58 PM on February 3, 2009
It may well work, but it's a band-aid. The existing problem will still have to be solved. Suppose everyone installs these devices- now, whatever is causing the problem actually will cause a small amount of pressure in your drain lines. Now nobody's toilets will flush...
Whatever is making this sewage not want to flow where its supposed to flow has to be corrected.
And legally, you might be on shaky ground. In my condo documents, there's a provision that says we can't install anything onto the building's systems that cause improper operation. Looking at it narrowly, this device will probably cause someone else's unit to flood. You've installed a device that causes their plumbing to not work right. It's possible you'd end up not being liable, but it's probable you would get sued.
posted by gjc at 5:57 PM on February 3, 2009
Whatever is making this sewage not want to flow where its supposed to flow has to be corrected.
And legally, you might be on shaky ground. In my condo documents, there's a provision that says we can't install anything onto the building's systems that cause improper operation. Looking at it narrowly, this device will probably cause someone else's unit to flood. You've installed a device that causes their plumbing to not work right. It's possible you'd end up not being liable, but it's probable you would get sued.
posted by gjc at 5:57 PM on February 3, 2009
Response by poster: gjc - I would love for the problem to be solved! Unfortunately, like I said above, the condo board or building manager won't put any effort into fixing the problem, and obviously I can't pay for the entire plumbing to be fixed for an entire condo building. We first reported the flooding problem to them in October and we've had at least 7 backups since then and they won't do a single thing to fix the problem. I'm just desperate...
Also, we are planning on talking with a lawyer first about liability and obviously asking for the building's permission to add the valve. I just wanted to know if anyone had heard of something similar or knew about liability issues. I was lucky with my last question about legal issues and plumbing and managed to get a few plumbers and a lawyer respond to the post.
Oh, and it's already happening to everyone else on the ground floor, but they won't come forward to support me in my fight against the condo board and management to have the problem fixed because it hasn't inconvenienced them yet and caused any damage to their floors, etc.
posted by DorothySmith at 8:01 PM on February 3, 2009
Also, we are planning on talking with a lawyer first about liability and obviously asking for the building's permission to add the valve. I just wanted to know if anyone had heard of something similar or knew about liability issues. I was lucky with my last question about legal issues and plumbing and managed to get a few plumbers and a lawyer respond to the post.
Oh, and it's already happening to everyone else on the ground floor, but they won't come forward to support me in my fight against the condo board and management to have the problem fixed because it hasn't inconvenienced them yet and caused any damage to their floors, etc.
posted by DorothySmith at 8:01 PM on February 3, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Frasermoo at 6:05 PM on February 2, 2009