Excuse me, you've just bigoted on my shoes.
December 22, 2008 11:34 AM Subscribe
What is the proper way of dealing with people who habitually use homophobic language (i.e. "that's so gay/queer," "Romo the homo," "faggoty") etc. but aren't really bigots?
A couple of considerations:
(1) Yes, I want to be courteous, but
(2) I don't want to excuse this as merely a bad habit on someone's part. I know there are those who actively try to dodge using language, but there are those who are more or less apathetic, and I don't want to give the impression that they should alter their ways merely because an openly-gay person is in their presence.
(3) :-( I hate calling people out on stuff, but I feel really obliged. Color me torn.
A couple of considerations:
(1) Yes, I want to be courteous, but
(2) I don't want to excuse this as merely a bad habit on someone's part. I know there are those who actively try to dodge using language, but there are those who are more or less apathetic, and I don't want to give the impression that they should alter their ways merely because an openly-gay person is in their presence.
(3) :-( I hate calling people out on stuff, but I feel really obliged. Color me torn.
"It's not a big deal, but it makes me uncomfortable when you use disparaging remarks like that around me"
posted by bitdamaged at 11:43 AM on December 22, 2008
posted by bitdamaged at 11:43 AM on December 22, 2008
I think how you react depends on the context on which this is happening. Is it a social situation? Workplace? Are these people peers or is a manager or a waiter in a restaurant? A close friend? Are things being shouted belligerently or quasi-joked about? Etc.--you see my point. Sometimes you just need to calmly explain why you find the language problematic. Refrain from calling anyone a bigot or homophobe or even labeling their behavior because that really puts people on the defensive and then they'll just tune you out.
Also, I'd choose a time to do it that is not right after they've just said something that bugs you. Generally I find it's better to wait for a calm, neutral time to be like "Hey, bro, you know how you sometimes say 'such and such?'" The other thing about calling someone out in the moment is that 1. They might think you're just being reactive and not take you seriously and 2. I find people are more defensive when they feel they're being called out for a specific action rather than being talked to more generally about ongoing stuff.
I'd just be amiable, respectful and polite but firm. Again, without knowing more context, all I can offer is the above vague advice. Many times, unless people are unconscionable, intractable assholes, and they're your friends/peers/coworkers, it's enough to hear that something bugs you, even if they don't get the "political" side of things and they will either stop talking that way or edit themselves in your presence.
posted by Rudy Gerner at 11:43 AM on December 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Also, I'd choose a time to do it that is not right after they've just said something that bugs you. Generally I find it's better to wait for a calm, neutral time to be like "Hey, bro, you know how you sometimes say 'such and such?'" The other thing about calling someone out in the moment is that 1. They might think you're just being reactive and not take you seriously and 2. I find people are more defensive when they feel they're being called out for a specific action rather than being talked to more generally about ongoing stuff.
I'd just be amiable, respectful and polite but firm. Again, without knowing more context, all I can offer is the above vague advice. Many times, unless people are unconscionable, intractable assholes, and they're your friends/peers/coworkers, it's enough to hear that something bugs you, even if they don't get the "political" side of things and they will either stop talking that way or edit themselves in your presence.
posted by Rudy Gerner at 11:43 AM on December 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: @ desjardins
Fight their own battles? Isn't human decency everyone's business?
posted by AlbatrossJones at 11:48 AM on December 22, 2008 [18 favorites]
Fight their own battles? Isn't human decency everyone's business?
posted by AlbatrossJones at 11:48 AM on December 22, 2008 [18 favorites]
Honestly this is often just a bad habit on a lot of people's parts (including mine--relevant metafilter thread on the subject). We don't think about it because we grew up using it without context. Just saying "Hmmm, that word, it''s not so nice and it makes me feel icky" will make them turn red and apologize usually. If they get mad, shrug and say, "Well I just thought you should know how I felt."
Making it about you and not the conclusions you could draw about their bigotry will work a lot better than arguing, again assuming that these are friends that you want to keep.
If these are gay people, btw, you should just butt out.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2008
Making it about you and not the conclusions you could draw about their bigotry will work a lot better than arguing, again assuming that these are friends that you want to keep.
If these are gay people, btw, you should just butt out.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2008
How about doing nothing? You mention that these people aren't bigots, so I assume you don't interpret their use of these phrases as intending some sort of slur on homosexuals. So who cares? Language is a means of communicating ideas, so if you don't have any problem with the ideas they are conveying what does it matter their choice of words?
posted by wabashbdw at 11:59 AM on December 22, 2008
posted by wabashbdw at 11:59 AM on December 22, 2008
desjardins - have you tried reading your comment back, substituting "jewish" for "gay"?
posted by amtho at 12:03 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by amtho at 12:03 PM on December 22, 2008
I immediately thought of this thread from a couple months ago when reading this question.
If you do decide to bring it up, it's my opinion that folks who choose this language will probably not be swayed from using it.
In fact, they'll probably say you're gay.
posted by AloneOssifer at 12:06 PM on December 22, 2008
If you do decide to bring it up, it's my opinion that folks who choose this language will probably not be swayed from using it.
In fact, they'll probably say you're gay.
posted by AloneOssifer at 12:06 PM on December 22, 2008
Well, I'm a gay person who likes it when nongay people ask others to not use language like that. Yes, I'm perfectly fine (usually) fighting my own battles, but having known allies is never a bad thing. As a woman, I also appreciate it when men call out sexist/chauvinist language and actions.
If these are friends of yours, and they're using the terms out of...what, habit? laziness? (I still call things "wicked!", since that was popular when I was 15 and growing up in Boston), then I agree with other folks here to do a gentle "Oh man, I really hate that term" or similar. And be resigned to the fact that they may ignore your request and/or mock you.
posted by rtha at 12:16 PM on December 22, 2008
If these are friends of yours, and they're using the terms out of...what, habit? laziness? (I still call things "wicked!", since that was popular when I was 15 and growing up in Boston), then I agree with other folks here to do a gentle "Oh man, I really hate that term" or similar. And be resigned to the fact that they may ignore your request and/or mock you.
posted by rtha at 12:16 PM on December 22, 2008
It's great when people help rid the world of prejudices that don't directly harm them. It makes such a difference. Thank you. Here's my two cents about how to handle this situation:
If the people were friends who shared my sense of humour, I would make a joke of it by agreeing to their statement but subbing in the titles of other societal groups, until they notice:
THEM: "That's so gay."
ME: "You're right, it's like, totally Muslim! Even to the point of being, like, Presbyterian!"
THEM: "He looks like a homo."
ME: "Yeah, and like he has a spinal cord injury or congenital deafness or something!"
THEM: "That is queer."
ME: "No, more like totally heterosexual. Or black."
It's so nonsensical it's hard for them to get mad or defensive, and it gently points out the absurdity and injustice of the original statement.
If they're not friends, I might play the "I have no irony" card and take them at face value.
THEM: "That's so gay."
ME: "Oh, wait, is he actually gay?"
THEM: "No, I mean, look at his clothes, they're just gay."
ME: "Wait, do you mean his clothes have sex with other clothes of the same gender? Weird."
Hopefully everyone laughs, then you mildly change the subject so the person who said "gay" doesn't have time to feel stupid or embarassed. And be nice to that person for the rest of the conversation, because if they feel shamed, they won't learn. The trick here is to call out the absurdity gently, without bringing emotion into it. As if they said "that's orange" when it's clearly blue- you wouldn't get all upset, you'd assume they were looking at a different object than you because their statement meant no sense. Try to keep the same neutral, non-aggressive tone, and once you've done it, change the subject and give the person back some status by laughing at their jokes or complimenting them or someting.
I fully support your efforts to do this, as long as you don't embarrass people in public. If you embarrass the person, I think you're doing damage to the cause by making it seem like being non-prejudiced means being self-righteous and un-fun. That's why I suggest ways that are kind of funny and non-confrontational, because they actually work on the person's perceptions, instead of just wrist-slapping them in public for a moment of bad behaviour.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 12:38 PM on December 22, 2008 [14 favorites]
If the people were friends who shared my sense of humour, I would make a joke of it by agreeing to their statement but subbing in the titles of other societal groups, until they notice:
THEM: "That's so gay."
ME: "You're right, it's like, totally Muslim! Even to the point of being, like, Presbyterian!"
THEM: "He looks like a homo."
ME: "Yeah, and like he has a spinal cord injury or congenital deafness or something!"
THEM: "That is queer."
ME: "No, more like totally heterosexual. Or black."
It's so nonsensical it's hard for them to get mad or defensive, and it gently points out the absurdity and injustice of the original statement.
If they're not friends, I might play the "I have no irony" card and take them at face value.
THEM: "That's so gay."
ME: "Oh, wait, is he actually gay?"
THEM: "No, I mean, look at his clothes, they're just gay."
ME: "Wait, do you mean his clothes have sex with other clothes of the same gender? Weird."
Hopefully everyone laughs, then you mildly change the subject so the person who said "gay" doesn't have time to feel stupid or embarassed. And be nice to that person for the rest of the conversation, because if they feel shamed, they won't learn. The trick here is to call out the absurdity gently, without bringing emotion into it. As if they said "that's orange" when it's clearly blue- you wouldn't get all upset, you'd assume they were looking at a different object than you because their statement meant no sense. Try to keep the same neutral, non-aggressive tone, and once you've done it, change the subject and give the person back some status by laughing at their jokes or complimenting them or someting.
I fully support your efforts to do this, as long as you don't embarrass people in public. If you embarrass the person, I think you're doing damage to the cause by making it seem like being non-prejudiced means being self-righteous and un-fun. That's why I suggest ways that are kind of funny and non-confrontational, because they actually work on the person's perceptions, instead of just wrist-slapping them in public for a moment of bad behaviour.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 12:38 PM on December 22, 2008 [14 favorites]
Fight their own battles? Isn't human decency everyone's business?
desjardins - have you tried reading your comment back, substituting "jewish" for "gay"?
I think I'm being misunderstood here. Let's say you're a straight guy, and you're at the bar with your openly gay friend and a few other guys. One of the other guys says "Man, that movie was so gay." Now, what's your motivation for jumping in and saying something? To "protect" your gay friend? What's stopping him from speaking up? My point is it gives the appearance that your gay friend is incapable of defending himself, and you have to do it for him. It's patronizing.
To wit: I have a visible birth defect, and were someone to make a joke in my presence, I would be highly offended if someone else said, "Dude, that's not cool," because I'M STANDING RIGHT THERE. There's no reason I can't say something to the person.
posted by desjardins at 12:42 PM on December 22, 2008
desjardins - have you tried reading your comment back, substituting "jewish" for "gay"?
I think I'm being misunderstood here. Let's say you're a straight guy, and you're at the bar with your openly gay friend and a few other guys. One of the other guys says "Man, that movie was so gay." Now, what's your motivation for jumping in and saying something? To "protect" your gay friend? What's stopping him from speaking up? My point is it gives the appearance that your gay friend is incapable of defending himself, and you have to do it for him. It's patronizing.
To wit: I have a visible birth defect, and were someone to make a joke in my presence, I would be highly offended if someone else said, "Dude, that's not cool," because I'M STANDING RIGHT THERE. There's no reason I can't say something to the person.
posted by desjardins at 12:42 PM on December 22, 2008
desjardins, I think the problem that people are pointing to is that typically, the person who is the butt of these bigoted jokes gets called out for overreacting when they speak up. That actually ends up being counterproductive to what people are trying to achieve here, because the offender is then offered a free pass. They are able to justify their behavior as non-offensive and as only offending radical crazy homos.
Of course, I'm sure a lot of that is how people respond. But as a radical crazy homo, I like it when other people who do not have anything to lose stick up for me and express their disappointment in that choice of language. It tends to be more productive.
I've never been of the opinion that little old white people that used the term "colored" weren't being racist because it was simply the terminology that they had used in previous generations. I am not so quick to dismiss behavior as acceptable simply because of some mitigating factor. Anyone who hasn't been in a persistent vegitative state since 1950 knows that "colored" is a highly-condescending term. The same with the use of "gay," "homo" and "queer." (Though "queer" is a little tricky, since many people will choose to use this word as an alternative to the unweildy "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Questioning Asexual Intersex Community.")
In my opinion, the best response is, "Come on, can't you do better than that? I expect more from someone as smart as you. Calling something "gay" to mean stupid or unpleasant just makes you sound more ignorant than you are." It's very much in line with the Wanda Sykes commercial referenced in the above thread. By saying you expect more of someone - and that you know they are capable of more - you are taking the burden off of yourself to explain why YOU are offended, and you are placing the burden on the offender to explain why they choose to sound and behave in an ignorant way.
Good luck, and thanks on behalf of the queer community. (See, like that.)
posted by greekphilosophy at 12:57 PM on December 22, 2008
Of course, I'm sure a lot of that is how people respond. But as a radical crazy homo, I like it when other people who do not have anything to lose stick up for me and express their disappointment in that choice of language. It tends to be more productive.
I've never been of the opinion that little old white people that used the term "colored" weren't being racist because it was simply the terminology that they had used in previous generations. I am not so quick to dismiss behavior as acceptable simply because of some mitigating factor. Anyone who hasn't been in a persistent vegitative state since 1950 knows that "colored" is a highly-condescending term. The same with the use of "gay," "homo" and "queer." (Though "queer" is a little tricky, since many people will choose to use this word as an alternative to the unweildy "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Questioning Asexual Intersex Community.")
In my opinion, the best response is, "Come on, can't you do better than that? I expect more from someone as smart as you. Calling something "gay" to mean stupid or unpleasant just makes you sound more ignorant than you are." It's very much in line with the Wanda Sykes commercial referenced in the above thread. By saying you expect more of someone - and that you know they are capable of more - you are taking the burden off of yourself to explain why YOU are offended, and you are placing the burden on the offender to explain why they choose to sound and behave in an ignorant way.
Good luck, and thanks on behalf of the queer community. (See, like that.)
posted by greekphilosophy at 12:57 PM on December 22, 2008
I read the OP's question as wondering what if anything to do when people use "gay" or "faggoty" as an expression of contempt for something totally unrelated to actual gayness.
I hit this situation with some younger members of my extended family- my solution was to mock them for their word choice. " 'Gay'? What are you, in junior high? Is that the best you can do?" or " 'faggoty'? three years of college and that's the extent of your vocabulary?" combined with snickering and rolling of the eyes. A couple of instances of that and the usage dropped off considerably.
YMMV depending on your audience, of course. Getting all politically-correct preachy wouldn't have worked with this particular crowd, but a little gentle mockery worked wonders.
posted by ambrosia at 12:58 PM on December 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
I hit this situation with some younger members of my extended family- my solution was to mock them for their word choice. " 'Gay'? What are you, in junior high? Is that the best you can do?" or " 'faggoty'? three years of college and that's the extent of your vocabulary?" combined with snickering and rolling of the eyes. A couple of instances of that and the usage dropped off considerably.
YMMV depending on your audience, of course. Getting all politically-correct preachy wouldn't have worked with this particular crowd, but a little gentle mockery worked wonders.
posted by ambrosia at 12:58 PM on December 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
I do something like ambrosia's technique. Follow-ups are greeted with a "hey, that's not cool" escalating to "let's find a new word, 'kay?" If need be, I'll further escalate to "you know I hate that shit, quit it."
posted by desuetude at 1:07 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by desuetude at 1:07 PM on December 22, 2008
Oh, and seconding rtha and greekphilosophy. I'm heartened to see non-queer people call someone out for this sort of thing.
posted by desuetude at 1:09 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by desuetude at 1:09 PM on December 22, 2008
"How old are you . . . twelve? Thirteen? Grow up, dude. That shit's inappropriate."
posted by jason's_planet at 1:11 PM on December 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by jason's_planet at 1:11 PM on December 22, 2008 [3 favorites]
Well, a couple of my friends used to say "That's f***ing gay" whenever they addressed something they didn't like about homework. Another friend heard that and got sensitive (he's straight, for the record), and argued about how homophobic it was. And, well, we kinda mocked him behind his back and started saying "That's f***ing hetero" instead.
That was a couple of years ago, when we were still freshmen in college and had a high-school-jerk phase. Now? I don't think they say that anymore, nor do I.
My point? Sometimes, we grow out of it. Sometimes, we don't. Still, it doesn't hurt to point it out.
posted by curagea at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2008
That was a couple of years ago, when we were still freshmen in college and had a high-school-jerk phase. Now? I don't think they say that anymore, nor do I.
My point? Sometimes, we grow out of it. Sometimes, we don't. Still, it doesn't hurt to point it out.
posted by curagea at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2008
There are (in my experience) two times when people use hateful speech. The first is to express hatred of people who are different from themselves. This is obviously repugnant, and for me, usually a sign that I no longer have any interest talking to this person. I usually make it clear to them that I find what they said to be repugnant, and then stop speaking to them.
The other kind is when people do what you described: use hateful words out of laziness or something. I find it to be incredibly unbecoming and ignorant to speak so lazily and poorly. When people do this around me, I look them in the eye and tell them "don't say things like that, it makes you sound ignorant." Most of the time that works, and people try to stop speaking in that way, at least around me. Some of the time it has no effect, and I usually start avoiding the person.
As an aside:
~ Though "queer" is a little tricky, since many people will choose to use this word as an alternative to the unweildy "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Questioning Asexual Intersex Community."
What about using "queer" in its original, dictionary meaning? If something is unusual or un-ordinary, I sometimes call it queer, not with any sexual overtones, but because I really like the word. E.G.: the other day the goose was in the yard, eating seeds next to a squirrel. He kept the squirrel out of his eating area for a while, but then the squirrel decided it had had enough, and charged at the goose, before dashing back to a safe distance. I, watching the whole thing, thought to myself: "how queer."
posted by paisley henosis at 1:25 PM on December 22, 2008
The other kind is when people do what you described: use hateful words out of laziness or something. I find it to be incredibly unbecoming and ignorant to speak so lazily and poorly. When people do this around me, I look them in the eye and tell them "don't say things like that, it makes you sound ignorant." Most of the time that works, and people try to stop speaking in that way, at least around me. Some of the time it has no effect, and I usually start avoiding the person.
As an aside:
~ Though "queer" is a little tricky, since many people will choose to use this word as an alternative to the unweildy "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Questioning Asexual Intersex Community."
What about using "queer" in its original, dictionary meaning? If something is unusual or un-ordinary, I sometimes call it queer, not with any sexual overtones, but because I really like the word. E.G.: the other day the goose was in the yard, eating seeds next to a squirrel. He kept the squirrel out of his eating area for a while, but then the squirrel decided it had had enough, and charged at the goose, before dashing back to a safe distance. I, watching the whole thing, thought to myself: "how queer."
posted by paisley henosis at 1:25 PM on December 22, 2008
To wit: I have a visible birth defect, and were someone to make a joke in my presence, I would be highly offended if someone else said, "Dude, that's not cool," because I'M STANDING RIGHT THERE. There's no reason I can't say something to the person.
I appreciate that, and get that absolutely. But sometimes some of us object to offensive language/actions that aren't about "us" (whatever the "us" is) because it still offends us - maybe we have a [fill in the blank] relative or friend, or maybe, for whatever unknowable reason, we find the term or action offensive. Someone who objects to a fag/crip/Polish/etc. joke even when a fag/crip/Pole is standing right there isn't necessarily doing it because they think the other person isn't capable of speaking up (although I know this gets complicated when the person is disabled, given our culture's weird stuff around disability); they might be doing it because it offends them, and they don't like that kind of language.
posted by rtha at 1:30 PM on December 22, 2008
I appreciate that, and get that absolutely. But sometimes some of us object to offensive language/actions that aren't about "us" (whatever the "us" is) because it still offends us - maybe we have a [fill in the blank] relative or friend, or maybe, for whatever unknowable reason, we find the term or action offensive. Someone who objects to a fag/crip/Polish/etc. joke even when a fag/crip/Pole is standing right there isn't necessarily doing it because they think the other person isn't capable of speaking up (although I know this gets complicated when the person is disabled, given our culture's weird stuff around disability); they might be doing it because it offends them, and they don't like that kind of language.
posted by rtha at 1:30 PM on December 22, 2008
I'm with rtha, greekphilosophy, and desuetude on this. To me, to do otherwise (the fight your own battles position) is exactly what allows white/straight/Christian/ male/wealthy/whatever people to think it's ok to make jokes about a minority group when no one of that group is around. Which is why I speak up and say it's not.
It doesn't offend me because I'm black/gay/Jewish/poor--or even because "some of my best friends" are. It offends me because I'm a person.
That said, I usually make a light (but not jokey) comment that gets across the point that it's not ok with me. It varies with the setting (I once had to tell a friend-of-a-friend not say the N word or get out of my house) and what seems like the level of jokiness/intent/etc.
posted by Pax at 1:46 PM on December 22, 2008
It doesn't offend me because I'm black/gay/Jewish/poor--or even because "some of my best friends" are. It offends me because I'm a person.
That said, I usually make a light (but not jokey) comment that gets across the point that it's not ok with me. It varies with the setting (I once had to tell a friend-of-a-friend not say the N word or get out of my house) and what seems like the level of jokiness/intent/etc.
posted by Pax at 1:46 PM on December 22, 2008
I don't want to give the impression that they should alter their ways merely because an openly-gay person is in their presence.
Why not? It's basic human consideration to avoid hurting others.
I think the OP meant that there should be a deeper motivation--to actually not BE a homophobe, rather than to keep it under wraps when people who might be gay are present.
posted by Pax at 1:47 PM on December 22, 2008
Why not? It's basic human consideration to avoid hurting others.
I think the OP meant that there should be a deeper motivation--to actually not BE a homophobe, rather than to keep it under wraps when people who might be gay are present.
posted by Pax at 1:47 PM on December 22, 2008
My 18 year old son has been trying to deal with this, within a small circle of friends for 4 years or so. Two of them get it, and don't use the word, the other two have taken to telling him he's gay to which he says, "Clearly, I don't have a problem with that, so why are you saying it like it's an insult?" It's unfortunate, but I think that there's some people who will not stop, even if you explain to them.
posted by b33j at 1:54 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by b33j at 1:54 PM on December 22, 2008
As Potomac Avenue writes, We don't think about it because we grew up using it without context.
Since you said these people have no malice, then to them these homophobic words have become decoupled from the slurs they originally were. Think of "to Welsh on a bet" or" to Gyp someone." I think for a lot of people the phrase "That's so gay" has become just as de-coupled. They're not hearing the slur any more than we hear it when we talk about how we got gypped. I don't necessarily think it is either laziness or ignorance, because rather to them in that context, it *isn't* a slur.
I am not justifying it or saying people don't have a right to be offended, just that offense might not even be on the mind of the speaker.
So what to do to let them know that for you and for many people of the target slur, it is most definitely NOT de-coupled? How do you not get into a pissing contest?
You might try to say, "Hey, you know I know you aren't a homophobe, and you probably didn't even think about this, but some people might get pissed off or the wrong idea about you. You don't want to piss them off, right?"
Gentle? Too soft-shoe? Well try it first and see what happens.
posted by xetere at 2:01 PM on December 22, 2008
Since you said these people have no malice, then to them these homophobic words have become decoupled from the slurs they originally were. Think of "to Welsh on a bet" or" to Gyp someone." I think for a lot of people the phrase "That's so gay" has become just as de-coupled. They're not hearing the slur any more than we hear it when we talk about how we got gypped. I don't necessarily think it is either laziness or ignorance, because rather to them in that context, it *isn't* a slur.
I am not justifying it or saying people don't have a right to be offended, just that offense might not even be on the mind of the speaker.
So what to do to let them know that for you and for many people of the target slur, it is most definitely NOT de-coupled? How do you not get into a pissing contest?
You might try to say, "Hey, you know I know you aren't a homophobe, and you probably didn't even think about this, but some people might get pissed off or the wrong idea about you. You don't want to piss them off, right?"
Gentle? Too soft-shoe? Well try it first and see what happens.
posted by xetere at 2:01 PM on December 22, 2008
When my students say something is gay, like, "that activity is so gay," I reply with "No, it isn't, activities don't have sexual preferences. There are thousands of words in the English language, try to find a better one to express how you feel."
posted by NoraCharles at 2:32 PM on December 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by NoraCharles at 2:32 PM on December 22, 2008 [1 favorite]
Many people upthread have expressed this sentiment, but: when I was in high school, I switched from one school where "that's so gay" was extremely common vernacular, to one where it...wasn't. The first time I said it at my new school, the girl I was talking to got a puzzled look on her face and said, "Wow. I haven't heard anyone say that since the 7th grade." It wasn't overtly judgmental, but it made me feel incredibly small and embarrassed. I don't think I've said "gay" in a derogatory way since, so from this sample size of one: yes, shame is an effective mechanism on non-bigoted people who use slurs out of laziness.
posted by cosmic osmo at 2:45 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by cosmic osmo at 2:45 PM on December 22, 2008
i would tease back--say, "what are you, twelve?" when they ask what they mean, say, "the last time i heard anyone say "gay" like it was a bad thing was in seventh grade." (or whatever your patois is)
do it as a gentle tease, like we gently and humorously chide the clueless among us (omg you are SO NOT WEARING UMBROS, hah!). it de-fuses the situation and corrects them at the same time. do it enough, they'll realize that you think it's immature. people don't like to be thought of as immature, so they'll feel self-conscious about it and stop staying it.
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:49 PM on December 22, 2008
do it as a gentle tease, like we gently and humorously chide the clueless among us (omg you are SO NOT WEARING UMBROS, hah!). it de-fuses the situation and corrects them at the same time. do it enough, they'll realize that you think it's immature. people don't like to be thought of as immature, so they'll feel self-conscious about it and stop staying it.
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:49 PM on December 22, 2008
jinx, cosmic osmo
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:49 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:49 PM on December 22, 2008
"When my students say something is gay, like, "that activity is so gay," I reply with "No, it isn't, activities don't have sexual preferences. There are thousands of words in the English language, try to find a better one to express how you feel.""
Yeah, 'cept, like, what you just told them? That's so gay.
Primly chiding? Earnest tone? That's, like, the definition of gay. And more to the point—that they now know you'll respond with a primly chiding earnest rebuke gives kids even more of an incentive to say "gay" because of the way you're phrasing your reply.
"Hey, not cool," works better.
posted by klangklangston at 3:28 PM on December 22, 2008
Yeah, 'cept, like, what you just told them? That's so gay.
Primly chiding? Earnest tone? That's, like, the definition of gay. And more to the point—that they now know you'll respond with a primly chiding earnest rebuke gives kids even more of an incentive to say "gay" because of the way you're phrasing your reply.
"Hey, not cool," works better.
posted by klangklangston at 3:28 PM on December 22, 2008
I still use retarded, gypped and spaz in this way if I'm not concentrating. It's habit and laziness and I would love it if more people pulled me up on it, since that's the only way I'm ever going to stop.
It doesn't take a lecture, just an incredulous look and a "Gypped? C'mon, who even says that anymore?"
So yeah, Nthing all the people who said respond with light mockery.
posted by the latin mouse at 3:44 PM on December 22, 2008
It doesn't take a lecture, just an incredulous look and a "Gypped? C'mon, who even says that anymore?"
So yeah, Nthing all the people who said respond with light mockery.
posted by the latin mouse at 3:44 PM on December 22, 2008
How old are these people? Shooting back with some allusion to being a highschooler won't do much if they are, in fact, highschoolers.
And what is "Romo the homo"?
posted by CKmtl at 3:48 PM on December 22, 2008
And what is "Romo the homo"?
posted by CKmtl at 3:48 PM on December 22, 2008
I used to have this conversation with an ex:
Ex: "_____ is so gay."
Me: "Excuse me, what about ______ is homosexual? That doesn't have a sexual preference, and it's not even having anything to do with a gay stereotype."
Ex: "It's...it's just gay."
Me: *faceplants*
Okay, that argument didn't get anywhere with that guy, but pointing out that gay does not mean stupid automatically might work with other people. It does seem to be something that happens in certain regional areas more than others, and definitely at certain ages (i.e. high school).
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:11 PM on December 22, 2008
Ex: "_____ is so gay."
Me: "Excuse me, what about ______ is homosexual? That doesn't have a sexual preference, and it's not even having anything to do with a gay stereotype."
Ex: "It's...it's just gay."
Me: *faceplants*
Okay, that argument didn't get anywhere with that guy, but pointing out that gay does not mean stupid automatically might work with other people. It does seem to be something that happens in certain regional areas more than others, and definitely at certain ages (i.e. high school).
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:11 PM on December 22, 2008
And what is "Romo the homo" I think it's something shouted by Redskins fans.
I also think it's best just to say that it's not cool to use such phrases than to lecture.
posted by ob at 4:35 PM on December 22, 2008
I also think it's best just to say that it's not cool to use such phrases than to lecture.
posted by ob at 4:35 PM on December 22, 2008
I came in here to post a link to this ad campaign directed at highschoolers. Don't pick a fight with your friend, and don't put on an overly serious face. Most people don't mean to offend, and are hardly even aware of their choice of language.
posted by hellopanda at 4:55 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by hellopanda at 4:55 PM on December 22, 2008
"How old are you . . . twelve? Thirteen? Grow up, dude."
If I choose this tact, I'll tend to add:
Wow, I didn't know you were a Halo player. We should totally pwn some uber noobs later.
posted by JimmyJames at 5:05 PM on December 22, 2008
If I choose this tact, I'll tend to add:
Wow, I didn't know you were a Halo player. We should totally pwn some uber noobs later.
posted by JimmyJames at 5:05 PM on December 22, 2008
Nthing just calmly mentioning that you don't like that language.
I will make remarks like that every now and then, without the intent of putting down homosexuals. I'm very open-minded about people's sexual orientations, but I also grew up using "that's gay" to mean "that's stupid," and not with the anti-homosexual context. I have had gay friends and acquaintances mention their dislike about that and I always apoligize and end up quite embarrassed. Sounds like these people are like me.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 5:58 PM on December 22, 2008
I will make remarks like that every now and then, without the intent of putting down homosexuals. I'm very open-minded about people's sexual orientations, but I also grew up using "that's gay" to mean "that's stupid," and not with the anti-homosexual context. I have had gay friends and acquaintances mention their dislike about that and I always apoligize and end up quite embarrassed. Sounds like these people are like me.
posted by C17H19NO3 at 5:58 PM on December 22, 2008
Not to excuse anyone's behavior, but be aware: it's sometimes possible for words like 'fag' and 'homo' to be used as terms of endearment. In certain groups, usually with queer folks present, this kind of thing can be common amongst close friends. John calls Jill a fag, Jill calls John a cocksucker, and then everybody shares a laugh and some chocolate ice cream.
I guess this falls under the concept of word reclamation (which is a contentious subject), or maybe in-group slang or something. My point is that in certain situations, queer-friendly or queer people can use non-inclusive language in an inclusive way.
I do NOT mean to say that every instance of "that's so gay!" is cool. Almost always, it's not, and you should follow the excellent advice given above. I also don't mean to say that all LGBT folks don't mind the word 'dyke' when it's a close friend speaking. That's also not true. But in SOME situations, with SOME people, the language you described can be friendly, if a little untraditional.
posted by Sfving at 6:23 PM on December 22, 2008
I guess this falls under the concept of word reclamation (which is a contentious subject), or maybe in-group slang or something. My point is that in certain situations, queer-friendly or queer people can use non-inclusive language in an inclusive way.
I do NOT mean to say that every instance of "that's so gay!" is cool. Almost always, it's not, and you should follow the excellent advice given above. I also don't mean to say that all LGBT folks don't mind the word 'dyke' when it's a close friend speaking. That's also not true. But in SOME situations, with SOME people, the language you described can be friendly, if a little untraditional.
posted by Sfving at 6:23 PM on December 22, 2008
desjardins -- sorry if I misinterpreted you. I was assuming that there wasn't a gay person standing right there (of course, he could be *in disguise*, but whatcha gonna do?). Even if one is standing right there, he could be shy. In any case, I was working from the premise that there aren't necessarily gay people in on whatever conversation this is.
Children will behave awkwardly unless their parents instruct them otherwise. We're all children in some ways.
posted by amtho at 6:28 PM on December 22, 2008
Children will behave awkwardly unless their parents instruct them otherwise. We're all children in some ways.
posted by amtho at 6:28 PM on December 22, 2008
"Hey, dude, that makes you sound like you're 12. Could we step up our vocab a little?"
posted by CwgrlUp at 7:02 PM on December 22, 2008
posted by CwgrlUp at 7:02 PM on December 22, 2008
Belittling someone's intelligence or immaturity seems far more likely to infuriate someone than "you say that like it's a bad thing."
I appreciate the wide spectrum of answers, and many of them are applicable in specific contexts, but I must say that being an elitist ("What are you, 11?") can be far more obnoxious than being a PC-whore.
posted by Franklin76 at 7:52 PM on December 22, 2008
I appreciate the wide spectrum of answers, and many of them are applicable in specific contexts, but I must say that being an elitist ("What are you, 11?") can be far more obnoxious than being a PC-whore.
posted by Franklin76 at 7:52 PM on December 22, 2008
I'm with pseudostrabismus's absurdist approach. I don't do quite the same thing he/she does, but it's similar. If someone says something is gay, I nod and say, "Waaay heterogay." It also sounds like it would mean "inexplicably ridiculous" so it almost always fits the context.
If someone calls someone a faggot -- my gamer friends, most of whom have nothing against gay people, are terrible about calling each other "faggots" -- I might say they're heteroqueer, as in, "Why don't you go hug your girlfriend, heteroqueer?" There's just really no response to that. Sometimes I'll go the opposite tack and call them a "breeder," although I'm not sure if that'd work for everyone; I'm a bisexual female married to a man, so the message is just a ridiculous one instead of a reverse discrimination one.
I get what some people mean when they say it's not worth correcting if you know they don't actually associate the insult with homosexuality when they say it. I felt this way for a while. I eventually decided it's worth correcting, though, because it can still give the impression that gays are lesser than other people. Even if we could quantify the effect of it and it turns out to be very small, it's worth making an effort not to say those things because it's no big deal to stop saying them. I used to call stuff gay all the time, and I have some gay friends who still do, but we try not to if we're thinking about it. Everyone slips up a lot when they're starting out, but as you keep noticing yourself doing it, it becomes easier to stop.
posted by Nattie at 3:05 AM on December 23, 2008
If someone calls someone a faggot -- my gamer friends, most of whom have nothing against gay people, are terrible about calling each other "faggots" -- I might say they're heteroqueer, as in, "Why don't you go hug your girlfriend, heteroqueer?" There's just really no response to that. Sometimes I'll go the opposite tack and call them a "breeder," although I'm not sure if that'd work for everyone; I'm a bisexual female married to a man, so the message is just a ridiculous one instead of a reverse discrimination one.
I get what some people mean when they say it's not worth correcting if you know they don't actually associate the insult with homosexuality when they say it. I felt this way for a while. I eventually decided it's worth correcting, though, because it can still give the impression that gays are lesser than other people. Even if we could quantify the effect of it and it turns out to be very small, it's worth making an effort not to say those things because it's no big deal to stop saying them. I used to call stuff gay all the time, and I have some gay friends who still do, but we try not to if we're thinking about it. Everyone slips up a lot when they're starting out, but as you keep noticing yourself doing it, it becomes easier to stop.
posted by Nattie at 3:05 AM on December 23, 2008
hmm i admit, i do it!
i have some really good gay friends, i've even been in fight defending their gayness,
but i do it.
i dont call people gay, jsut in some situations i make the remark "that is so gay".
analysing myself, i couldnt say why, except that it is just a bad habit.
in honesty i think i use it more as a retro situation "gay" comment,
rather than any form of bigotry.
i've been pulled up a few times, but politely. like a friend will just say "hey, come on"
i know it's not politically correct, but there is no level of offense intended.
Jay, in 40 year old virgin:
"Okay, hold up. First of all,
you making it out to be
some kind of bad thing.
I didn't use bitches
in a derogatory sense. You did..."
posted by edtut at 4:55 AM on December 23, 2008
i have some really good gay friends, i've even been in fight defending their gayness,
but i do it.
i dont call people gay, jsut in some situations i make the remark "that is so gay".
analysing myself, i couldnt say why, except that it is just a bad habit.
in honesty i think i use it more as a retro situation "gay" comment,
rather than any form of bigotry.
i've been pulled up a few times, but politely. like a friend will just say "hey, come on"
i know it's not politically correct, but there is no level of offense intended.
Jay, in 40 year old virgin:
"Okay, hold up. First of all,
you making it out to be
some kind of bad thing.
I didn't use bitches
in a derogatory sense. You did..."
posted by edtut at 4:55 AM on December 23, 2008
Gee, darling, you say that like it's a bad thing! Come up to my room, and let me show you why it's not!
posted by Goofyy at 9:38 AM on December 23, 2008
posted by Goofyy at 9:38 AM on December 23, 2008
There's a few people who've mentioned that gay people should fight their own battles when it comes to this situation. I think it's dangerous when we start to put the responsibility of social justice only on the oppressed individuals in society. It should be all of our responsibility to stand up for human rights and demand that those around us should use language that doesn't offend others. Most of us wouldn't allow racist jokes and slang words to go on around us, so why are we so timid to stand up against sexist or homophobic language?
Luckily I haven't been around that type of language since high school (now in graduate school), but if I were to be around when someone says something like that, I would just explain to that person the type of connotations it has. Explain that, when someone says "that's gay" they're using the word 'gay' as an insulting word and it assumes that there's something wrong with being gay. Also, I don't think it would hurt to explain that sexist, racist, classist, homophobic, transphobic phrases and language perpetuate these very ideologies and structures in society (and these structures actively discriminate against certain individuals). As long as the word 'gay' is an insult, then we can't move forward when thinking of human rights!
posted by DorothySmith at 5:18 PM on December 28, 2008
Luckily I haven't been around that type of language since high school (now in graduate school), but if I were to be around when someone says something like that, I would just explain to that person the type of connotations it has. Explain that, when someone says "that's gay" they're using the word 'gay' as an insulting word and it assumes that there's something wrong with being gay. Also, I don't think it would hurt to explain that sexist, racist, classist, homophobic, transphobic phrases and language perpetuate these very ideologies and structures in society (and these structures actively discriminate against certain individuals). As long as the word 'gay' is an insult, then we can't move forward when thinking of human rights!
posted by DorothySmith at 5:18 PM on December 28, 2008
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posted by desjardins at 11:42 AM on December 22, 2008