This one goes to eleven.
September 7, 2008 5:23 PM Subscribe
My three-year-old daughter talks loud. Loud. LOUD. Any parenting tips/tricks on encouraging quieter communication?
First and foremost, it's not her hearing, which we've had tested. It's not the environment, as her 6-year-old brother communicates fine at normal levels.
But bless her heart, this little girl just loves to talk loud. Almost everything she says, she says at maximum volume - especially if we're in public.
Before anyone says "All three-year-old girls are that way ..." ... um, no, they're not. We're around a lot of three-year-olds, both genders, and none of them are as doggedly Loud Howard as my girl is.
I've tried both ends of the firmness spectrum (from really firm to "oh, it's okay, she's just being a kid") and everything in between, and nothing seems to click with her. I honestly think she just really likes talking very loudly.
Parents, any behavioral tips/tricks you can offer on how to encourage her to find her inside voice? I'm sure she has one, she just hasn't found it yet.
First and foremost, it's not her hearing, which we've had tested. It's not the environment, as her 6-year-old brother communicates fine at normal levels.
But bless her heart, this little girl just loves to talk loud. Almost everything she says, she says at maximum volume - especially if we're in public.
Before anyone says "All three-year-old girls are that way ..." ... um, no, they're not. We're around a lot of three-year-olds, both genders, and none of them are as doggedly Loud Howard as my girl is.
I've tried both ends of the firmness spectrum (from really firm to "oh, it's okay, she's just being a kid") and everything in between, and nothing seems to click with her. I honestly think she just really likes talking very loudly.
Parents, any behavioral tips/tricks you can offer on how to encourage her to find her inside voice? I'm sure she has one, she just hasn't found it yet.
I know many parents who simply decline to respond to their children when they talk too loudly, or interrupt, or commit some other breach of social etiquette along those lines. For this to be really effective you need to do two things. First, make sure the child understands why you aren't responding in kind. This is usually accomplished with a gentle "Inside voices" and no further response until the child quiets down. But second, be diligent about acknowledging the child immediately when they are polite.
I've seen this method get very good results, though having no children, I've obviously not used it myself.
posted by valkyryn at 5:33 PM on September 7, 2008
I've seen this method get very good results, though having no children, I've obviously not used it myself.
posted by valkyryn at 5:33 PM on September 7, 2008
I don't have an answer to your question, but I have a very loud, talkative three-year-old as well. Sometimes in response to being told to quiet down, she will get even louder and laugh because she thinks it's funny. It's so frustrating. She also sings very loudly whenever she is engaged in an activity that requires concentration. I'm an introvert, so she doesn't get this behavior from me, and I am a little baffled on how to deal with it as well.
We will do practice sessions where I will ask her to "Go ask Daddy for milk in a nice, quiet voice" and she will comply perfectly. But her default setting is "Loud."
I got her Scholastic Book Order form from preschool, though, and I am going to order Little Tiger is Loud because it seems to deal with this issue.
posted by Ostara at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2008
We will do practice sessions where I will ask her to "Go ask Daddy for milk in a nice, quiet voice" and she will comply perfectly. But her default setting is "Loud."
I got her Scholastic Book Order form from preschool, though, and I am going to order Little Tiger is Loud because it seems to deal with this issue.
posted by Ostara at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2008
I don't have kids, but I do have experience with intoxicated people (usually much the same). Have you tried whispering to her? She may whisper back.
posted by meindee at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]
posted by meindee at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]
A friend of mine has an almost three year old daughter. When they want her to do something and she dosen't do it, they count "One... two... three..." and she then does it because she knows that if she doesn't, she'll get in trouble. Recently she's started trying to get her parents to do things she wants, and if they don't she's taken on their tactic of counting "One... two... three..." What's cute is that she can't count past three and gets confused because whereas after three she'll get in trouble, it dosen't seem to work on her parents.
My point is, children see, children do. Talk quietly to her a lot, and to your partner. Make a game of it. Who can talk the most quietly? After a while she'll hopefully start to mimic it. It's not a quick fix but it's a suggestion.
posted by Effigy2000 at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2008
My point is, children see, children do. Talk quietly to her a lot, and to your partner. Make a game of it. Who can talk the most quietly? After a while she'll hopefully start to mimic it. It's not a quick fix but it's a suggestion.
posted by Effigy2000 at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2008
Remember that reasoning will will not work for another 5 or 6 years—only rewards for "right" behavior. So, reward soft. Ignore loud. Or say, "I can't hear you, you're too loud" when she's too loud. Don't tell her to shush, in any way, shape or form.
posted by beagle at 5:47 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by beagle at 5:47 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't have any suggestions (and it sounds like you got some great ones)... I'd just suggest that whatever the be quieter regime winds up being - that you let it go when she's legitimately excited and trying to tell you something important to her. because some of us TALK LOUDER WHEN WE'RE EXCITED!!! and there's nothing more dispiriting than being interrupted and told to quiet down. (It's like you aren't even listening to the awesome thing!!!)
posted by moxiedoll at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by moxiedoll at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
The approach I've seen used successfully (ok, ok, it was on me, when I was a kid, don't laugh) is to say "you are too loud, I can't hear you," and make her repeat things in a quieter voice before you will actually respond to what she is saying. The humor of "I can't hear you because you are too loud" catches the kid's attention more than just telling them to be quiet.
posted by Forktine at 6:17 PM on September 7, 2008
posted by Forktine at 6:17 PM on September 7, 2008
The best way to make kids talk more quietly is to speak quietly. When she's really loud, really whisper. When she's sorta loud, sorta whisper. When she's speaking at a level you like, speak at that level.
You can almost always get kids to quiet down faster by speaking very softly than you can by trying to be louder.
posted by TomMelee at 6:43 PM on September 7, 2008
You can almost always get kids to quiet down faster by speaking very softly than you can by trying to be louder.
posted by TomMelee at 6:43 PM on September 7, 2008
According to my mom, she broke me of this habit when I was that age by saying something like "When you talk so loud, I can't hear the radio," and turning it up very high, and not turning it back down until I was quieter.
posted by CrunchyFrog at 6:43 PM on September 7, 2008
posted by CrunchyFrog at 6:43 PM on September 7, 2008
I had an insanely loud three-year-old, who is now just a few weeks away from being an insanely loud six-year-old. We do the "you're too loud, I can't hear you, you'll have to talk quieter" thing. Every five minutes. For the past six years. Hasn't really been effective in solving the loud, but of all the things we've tried it's the one that's had even a slight impact. (In our case, too, he has an older sibling who is not loud -- except when she's yelling at him to not be loud -- and he has had his hearing checked and has no problems with that.)
It's kind of sad, because as annoying as it is for him to be so loud all the time, it's incredibly disheartening to realize that pretty much the main message he gets from everyone around him is to shut up -- last year at school he was sad because, as he put it, "everyone else has different rules than me." When we asked him what he meant, he said that he was the only one who had to be quiet all the time.
So it's difficult: I don't want his take-away message to be that he doesn't deserve to be heard, but it's very hard when his default "inside voice" drowns out anybody who had any hope of being heard. It's a constant thing in our house, reminding him to speak quietly and reminding him that we hear him just fine. I'm really hoping that at least the volume part of it is something he'll grow out of.... but I fear it may be genetic: my mother-in-law basically doesn't even need to pick up the phone in NJ to call us in Philadelphia. We can hear her just fine from here.
posted by mothershock at 6:59 PM on September 7, 2008
It's kind of sad, because as annoying as it is for him to be so loud all the time, it's incredibly disheartening to realize that pretty much the main message he gets from everyone around him is to shut up -- last year at school he was sad because, as he put it, "everyone else has different rules than me." When we asked him what he meant, he said that he was the only one who had to be quiet all the time.
So it's difficult: I don't want his take-away message to be that he doesn't deserve to be heard, but it's very hard when his default "inside voice" drowns out anybody who had any hope of being heard. It's a constant thing in our house, reminding him to speak quietly and reminding him that we hear him just fine. I'm really hoping that at least the volume part of it is something he'll grow out of.... but I fear it may be genetic: my mother-in-law basically doesn't even need to pick up the phone in NJ to call us in Philadelphia. We can hear her just fine from here.
posted by mothershock at 6:59 PM on September 7, 2008
You're lucky you have more than one kid, because quiet contests worked on my sisters and me. Make it a competition with prizes and she'll get good practice being less loud than her brother. In the case of my family, we'd get very loud in the back seat of the car which drove my dad nuts when he was driving - so our quiet contests were more about who could be silent the longest...but I bet that wouldn't be hard to modify.
posted by crinklebat at 7:05 PM on September 7, 2008
posted by crinklebat at 7:05 PM on September 7, 2008
moxiedoll is right. I am a naturally loud person. I have tried nearly my whole life to control it and it simply does not work. Any attempt on my part to lower my voice makes my throat feel strained (even if I'm well above whispering).
Just like some people have a naturally high voice, or a naturally deep voice, I have a naturally loud voice. I'm 28 years old and it still hurts my feelings when someone tries to shush me. I do *not* like to be the center of attention, which is part of why I think it's so humiliating to be shushed — it puts me on the spot.
It is simply something I can not easily control, no matter how hard I try. be happy you have a healthy and otherwise well-behaved child, and please do not give her a complex about this.
posted by Brittanie at 7:12 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
Just like some people have a naturally high voice, or a naturally deep voice, I have a naturally loud voice. I'm 28 years old and it still hurts my feelings when someone tries to shush me. I do *not* like to be the center of attention, which is part of why I think it's so humiliating to be shushed — it puts me on the spot.
It is simply something I can not easily control, no matter how hard I try. be happy you have a healthy and otherwise well-behaved child, and please do not give her a complex about this.
posted by Brittanie at 7:12 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
What the preschool teachers do in my 3-year-old's room is make it clear that the loudness is painful and has social consequences. "It hurts my ears when you're that loud and I don't want to listen or be too close. When you can use your voice more gently, I will listen." And then follow through. They also provide situations in which it is ok to be loud ("If you really need to be that loud, you can yell out the door," "You can yell when we are outside," or "You can be loud for 3 minutes." They don't try to control obviously exciting situations like a birthday snack or new music.)
I've used it with my (not often too loud) three-year-old, and I think it's respectful in that it's a clear communication of how his behavior affects me, lets him know that I think he's up to the task of controlling it appropriately, and spells out what my responses will be. I like it because it's realistic, and makes explicit how I would react even to an adult who was annoyingly loud. It's not a double standard, that is, and I'm not telling him to shut up.
I don't understand the "You're too loud I can't hear you" suggestions. Won't the kid just try to be louder?
posted by cocoagirl at 7:57 PM on September 7, 2008
I've used it with my (not often too loud) three-year-old, and I think it's respectful in that it's a clear communication of how his behavior affects me, lets him know that I think he's up to the task of controlling it appropriately, and spells out what my responses will be. I like it because it's realistic, and makes explicit how I would react even to an adult who was annoyingly loud. It's not a double standard, that is, and I'm not telling him to shut up.
I don't understand the "You're too loud I can't hear you" suggestions. Won't the kid just try to be louder?
posted by cocoagirl at 7:57 PM on September 7, 2008
My daughter had a similar problem at this age and one thing that helped (and that she could understand) was that she had an "inside voice" and an "outside voice". We practiced with the inside voice and she understood that inside the house, car, school, etc this was the voice she should use and that she could be loud and use her 'outside' voice in the yard, on the playground or at the park. It helped her to self regulate (where am I and which voice should I use?) and a simple reminder that she needed to use her 'inside voice' helped her to more quickly bring her volume into an acceptable range. I wonder, have you had your child's hearing checked?
posted by KTrujillo at 8:07 PM on September 7, 2008
posted by KTrujillo at 8:07 PM on September 7, 2008
Have you tried the whole "twelve-inch voice" thing? That is, getting her to train her voice to a level where you have to be twelve inches away or less to hear it? Explain to her exactly that that means, though. When I was young, people were always telling me to use an "indoor voice" and a "twelve-inch voice" and I didn't realize what that meant until about a year ago when I was 22 and it was spelled out to me.
posted by Anonymous at 8:16 PM on September 7, 2008
posted by Anonymous at 8:16 PM on September 7, 2008
As with Brittanie, I'm someone who has always been loud. My parents never found any clever way of "breaking" me of this behavior, they would just tell me I was being too loud, that I should lower my voice. Temporary fix at best. But here's the thing--I never, ever, in my childhood understood *why* they were saying that. I was not *trying* to be loud, and I never thought I sounded particularly loud. As far as I knew, I was speaking at the same volume as they were. And I was never diagnosed as having any hearing problems, either.
I'm still loud as an adult. Sometimes (like when I'm teaching) it's an asset, b/c even the people all the way in the back can hear me. And sometimes I am a bit more conscious if my voice seems to stand out in a conversation, but I have to really be thinking about it to notice. Mostly, if I'm in a situation where I know I need for people to not overhear, I make a very concerted effort to lower my voice, but I really have to think about it constantly or my volume just goes back up.
So I guess I'm saying that there is the possibility that this just is the way your daughter is, and while I hope you can help her to change the way she hears her voice, it may not take.
posted by DiscourseMarker at 11:10 PM on September 7, 2008
I'm still loud as an adult. Sometimes (like when I'm teaching) it's an asset, b/c even the people all the way in the back can hear me. And sometimes I am a bit more conscious if my voice seems to stand out in a conversation, but I have to really be thinking about it to notice. Mostly, if I'm in a situation where I know I need for people to not overhear, I make a very concerted effort to lower my voice, but I really have to think about it constantly or my volume just goes back up.
So I guess I'm saying that there is the possibility that this just is the way your daughter is, and while I hope you can help her to change the way she hears her voice, it may not take.
posted by DiscourseMarker at 11:10 PM on September 7, 2008
Just make sure you don't scare it out of her...
I was a loud kid until one day I got scolded pretty harshly for it. I've been a mumbler ever since.
Tread lightly.
posted by sunshinesky at 11:37 PM on September 7, 2008
I was a loud kid until one day I got scolded pretty harshly for it. I've been a mumbler ever since.
Tread lightly.
posted by sunshinesky at 11:37 PM on September 7, 2008
Where possible, reply to her at the same volume to see how she responds.
If she finds it alarming or otherwise unexpectedly jarring, let her know this is what her preferred volume creates in others. Maybe it will encourage a bit of empathy so she can use it when it's more appropriate/likely to be appreciated.
If she finds it amusing, make it a playtime thing and ask her to save it for this play time. Maybe read specific books in these loud voices or play with toys as if on stage.
Maybe get her into singing? She's not too young at that age, and the combination of making songs sound right or using simple breath control could help her develop an awareness of the power of voice (as well as encouraging a splendid talent).
Or acting - she's already projecting, so maybe help her act out plays using the loud voice and help her be aware she's using her "stage voice" in situations that don't need it.
Can you record her doing it in some way and play it back for her? Even better if you can record other children using their less voluble voices and play a comparison game with her so she can tell the difference.
If she's using the loud voice to talk over other kids, dominate conversation, or otherwise "possess" space, it may be time for an early socialisation check and help her roleplay through appropriate/inappropriate uses of the loud voice in social settings.
The suggestions to let her know that loudness impacts others and to consider helping her grok voice levels through creatures and numbers are great ones, I think, and I know the latter was how we learned volume modulation and how I taught the kids I nannied.
posted by batmonkey at 12:15 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
If she finds it alarming or otherwise unexpectedly jarring, let her know this is what her preferred volume creates in others. Maybe it will encourage a bit of empathy so she can use it when it's more appropriate/likely to be appreciated.
If she finds it amusing, make it a playtime thing and ask her to save it for this play time. Maybe read specific books in these loud voices or play with toys as if on stage.
Maybe get her into singing? She's not too young at that age, and the combination of making songs sound right or using simple breath control could help her develop an awareness of the power of voice (as well as encouraging a splendid talent).
Or acting - she's already projecting, so maybe help her act out plays using the loud voice and help her be aware she's using her "stage voice" in situations that don't need it.
Can you record her doing it in some way and play it back for her? Even better if you can record other children using their less voluble voices and play a comparison game with her so she can tell the difference.
If she's using the loud voice to talk over other kids, dominate conversation, or otherwise "possess" space, it may be time for an early socialisation check and help her roleplay through appropriate/inappropriate uses of the loud voice in social settings.
The suggestions to let her know that loudness impacts others and to consider helping her grok voice levels through creatures and numbers are great ones, I think, and I know the latter was how we learned volume modulation and how I taught the kids I nannied.
posted by batmonkey at 12:15 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
i'm not a very loud talker, but i am a very fast talker. i can't hear it, though, when i'm talking fast. it sounds *exactly* the same speed as everyone else is talking. but if i hear a recording, i cringe at the fastness. and people have made fun of me for it my whole life, which sucks. i was always told i spoke too fast, but i could never tell if i actually was, or what it sounded like when i did.
so, seconding the previous answer, can you record her to give her actual feedback? or maybe give her a tape recorder as a toy- or tape her on the camcorder- any instrument that shows the level of noise it's recording with little lights that light up all the way for "loud" and less for "quiet"? have a game where you practice talking with the sound levels at "quiet", and reward her immensely when she is quiet.
also, i agree with previous posters who commented that although she should learn how to be quiet in some situations, it will hurt her self-esteem to be shushed all the time. so put her into an activity, like drama or siniging, where being loud is an asset- so she learns that she has a neat talent, even if sometimes she should tone it down a little.
posted by twistofrhyme at 1:11 AM on September 8, 2008
so, seconding the previous answer, can you record her to give her actual feedback? or maybe give her a tape recorder as a toy- or tape her on the camcorder- any instrument that shows the level of noise it's recording with little lights that light up all the way for "loud" and less for "quiet"? have a game where you practice talking with the sound levels at "quiet", and reward her immensely when she is quiet.
also, i agree with previous posters who commented that although she should learn how to be quiet in some situations, it will hurt her self-esteem to be shushed all the time. so put her into an activity, like drama or siniging, where being loud is an asset- so she learns that she has a neat talent, even if sometimes she should tone it down a little.
posted by twistofrhyme at 1:11 AM on September 8, 2008
"Gwenlister and Schroedinger are on the money," says my sister - an educational voice and music curricula developer and mother of 3.
Sis uses 'inside voice' and 'outside voice' as her daily cues with her kids. She teaches her kids and her primary school students about projection and volume essentially as Schroedinger and Gwenlister respectfully noted. She teaches the kids to feel and understand their diaphragm (breathing low/deep, breathing high/shallow) and how their breath effects their voice.
She uses other voice cues too. When her eldest, a 4yr old, starts whining or reverting to 'baby voice' Sis gently asks her to speak in big girls voice. And for fun and games there is also wombat voice, galah voice, old man voice... you get the picture. In essence, Sis says, "it is not about 'behaviour' but about potential. Teach kids how to control and create with their voice then lead them to use their skills appropriately."
posted by Kerasia at 1:54 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
Sis uses 'inside voice' and 'outside voice' as her daily cues with her kids. She teaches her kids and her primary school students about projection and volume essentially as Schroedinger and Gwenlister respectfully noted. She teaches the kids to feel and understand their diaphragm (breathing low/deep, breathing high/shallow) and how their breath effects their voice.
She uses other voice cues too. When her eldest, a 4yr old, starts whining or reverting to 'baby voice' Sis gently asks her to speak in big girls voice. And for fun and games there is also wombat voice, galah voice, old man voice... you get the picture. In essence, Sis says, "it is not about 'behaviour' but about potential. Teach kids how to control and create with their voice then lead them to use their skills appropriately."
posted by Kerasia at 1:54 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
IANAP, but I am a child-care professional. What I've observed working best with kids with "problem" behaviors (namely, anything you really want them to stop doing) is positive re-inforcement. That is, anytime they're doing what you *want* them to be doing, praise them for this. I do this nine hundred times a day.
"You did such a good job walking up the stairs like a big girl!"
"Oh, you have such nice manners. I like it when you say thank you!"
"You did a really good job cleaning up your toys!"
ad nauseum.
In this case, ask her to speak quietly. You can refer to this as an "inside voice" as that's probably what her teachers will call speaking quietly. When she speaks loudly, say "Shhhh, we need to use our inside voice." And then, every time you hear her speaking softly (for a while this will take prompting, of course) tell her "Oh, I like it when you use your inside voice!" After a while, it'll take less and less prompting.
This is much, much more effective than negatively re-inforcing the loudness, although of course sometimes you DO have to say "You're being too loud and it is making me unhappy."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:00 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
"You did such a good job walking up the stairs like a big girl!"
"Oh, you have such nice manners. I like it when you say thank you!"
"You did a really good job cleaning up your toys!"
ad nauseum.
In this case, ask her to speak quietly. You can refer to this as an "inside voice" as that's probably what her teachers will call speaking quietly. When she speaks loudly, say "Shhhh, we need to use our inside voice." And then, every time you hear her speaking softly (for a while this will take prompting, of course) tell her "Oh, I like it when you use your inside voice!" After a while, it'll take less and less prompting.
This is much, much more effective than negatively re-inforcing the loudness, although of course sometimes you DO have to say "You're being too loud and it is making me unhappy."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:00 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
N'thing whispering. Works with my 4 every time. Expect it to take up to 10 minutes before the child realizes what's happening. If you make a habit of it, so will the child.
posted by kc0dxh at 5:36 AM on September 8, 2008
posted by kc0dxh at 5:36 AM on September 8, 2008
I've always gone with "Thank you, honey. Inside voice,please", said in a normal voice, while placing a hand gently on the head/shoulder/arm and making eye contact. This gives the acknowledgment and the reminder. If they persist, then I let go and say "that's too loud for inside, and we need to talk with inside voices." still making eye contact.
Now my kids have hellacious tempers, so usually when we've got the loud-loud thing going on, it's because they're mad and they must TELL MAMA NOW. If the "inside voice, please" doesn't work, that's when we start talking about "inside scream" or "let's go in your room so you're not disrupting the family while you work out your mad."
posted by lysdexic at 8:42 AM on September 8, 2008
Now my kids have hellacious tempers, so usually when we've got the loud-loud thing going on, it's because they're mad and they must TELL MAMA NOW. If the "inside voice, please" doesn't work, that's when we start talking about "inside scream" or "let's go in your room so you're not disrupting the family while you work out your mad."
posted by lysdexic at 8:42 AM on September 8, 2008
This may seem silly, but have you had her hearing checked? Perhaps she talks loudly because she can't hear very well and is thinking that no one can, either.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:26 AM on September 8, 2008
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:26 AM on September 8, 2008
*smacks forehead*
Yes, yes -- you have. Serves me right for skimming.
Never mind.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:28 AM on September 8, 2008
Yes, yes -- you have. Serves me right for skimming.
Never mind.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:28 AM on September 8, 2008
My five-year-old did have hearing issues, so I've been working on this problem for some time. My best results have been from "inside voice/outside voice" and "baby vice/big girl voice," as others have suggested upthread. It reinforces situational awareness and encourages my daughter to "act her age" because she wants to be seen as a big girl now that she's going to Big Kid School (kindergarten).
I honestly don't like the "baby voice/big girl voice" thing because I don't like implying that she's acting like a baby, but I'm probably being over-sensitive, and it does get results.
Constant positive reinforcement is a must, too, but I'm sure I don't need to tell you that.
posted by lekvar at 12:45 PM on September 8, 2008
I honestly don't like the "baby voice/big girl voice" thing because I don't like implying that she's acting like a baby, but I'm probably being over-sensitive, and it does get results.
Constant positive reinforcement is a must, too, but I'm sure I don't need to tell you that.
posted by lekvar at 12:45 PM on September 8, 2008
I was a loud talker as a kid, too, as was my older daughter, and what worked with both of us was the inside voice/outside voice approach with the occasional whispering when a first request didn't work. With my daughter, I made it more fun (rather than just behavior correction, when usually the kid is just enthusiastically chattering and not in any way trying to misbehave) by having other voice choices, like silly voice, singsong voice, opera voice, grandpa voice, fish voice, etc.
posted by notashroom at 1:44 PM on September 9, 2008
posted by notashroom at 1:44 PM on September 9, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by gwenlister at 5:31 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]