Refunds on online ordering of non-refundables
January 15, 2006 8:04 PM Subscribe
Ordered something online that was not refundable and immediately realized it was a mistake. (1) pay it? (2) report card missing? (3) report card stolen? (4) other?
And consequences for #2 and #3.
I realize what I did was quite stupid and am fine with people saying to suck it up / learn from it, etc.
Details:
- http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/dat/fees.asp
"Fees are not refundable or transferable."
"Fees are not refundable. Fees are not transferable."
I have no plans to ever write the American Dental Aptiude Test (DAT). I'm in Canada and won't ever apply to the states.
- I paid it with a Canadian credit card - TD GM Visa. I had to enter my proper billing address, credit card number and date of expiry (though not those last 3 digits that they have on the back of the card that they occasionally use as some sort of PIN).
- Called up my Credit Card lost/stolen number. Basically I said that someone I knew ordered something wrong and if I could put a stop to it. Answer - no, I have to deal with the retailer. Mentioned it was non-refundable - answer too bad, credit card company won't do anything about it unless I press charges against the person who misused it (in my scenario - that I'm responsible for it).
I have the feeling that I'm going to have to end up paying it (imagine saying it was lost or stolen but then that stealer registered me for a test?)
- I can survive without my credit card pretty much indefinitely
Legally I'm not asking for advice to break the law - just the consequences of it. [Of course this is all just a great big hypothetical scenario inspired when a friend asked me and I decided to write a very detailed short story on it]
My character is leaning towards just paying it (because of the rather miniscule chance (but life damaging event) of being charged with credit card fraud. He also doesn't really need the money that bad (though there are better ways to spend xmas gift money), finds this very humourous (hit submit button - and then 30 seconds later, hey wait a second.....) and will use this as a valuable learning experience.
($170 US btw)
I realize what I did was quite stupid and am fine with people saying to suck it up / learn from it, etc.
Details:
- http://www.ada.org/prof/ed/testing/dat/fees.asp
"Fees are not refundable or transferable."
"Fees are not refundable. Fees are not transferable."
I have no plans to ever write the American Dental Aptiude Test (DAT). I'm in Canada and won't ever apply to the states.
- I paid it with a Canadian credit card - TD GM Visa. I had to enter my proper billing address, credit card number and date of expiry (though not those last 3 digits that they have on the back of the card that they occasionally use as some sort of PIN).
- Called up my Credit Card lost/stolen number. Basically I said that someone I knew ordered something wrong and if I could put a stop to it. Answer - no, I have to deal with the retailer. Mentioned it was non-refundable - answer too bad, credit card company won't do anything about it unless I press charges against the person who misused it (in my scenario - that I'm responsible for it).
I have the feeling that I'm going to have to end up paying it (imagine saying it was lost or stolen but then that stealer registered me for a test?)
- I can survive without my credit card pretty much indefinitely
Legally I'm not asking for advice to break the law - just the consequences of it. [Of course this is all just a great big hypothetical scenario inspired when a friend asked me and I decided to write a very detailed short story on it]
My character is leaning towards just paying it (because of the rather miniscule chance (but life damaging event) of being charged with credit card fraud. He also doesn't really need the money that bad (though there are better ways to spend xmas gift money), finds this very humourous (hit submit button - and then 30 seconds later, hey wait a second.....) and will use this as a valuable learning experience.
($170 US btw)
I didn't catch in there that you had actually just called them up like reasonable people and asked if they could in fact refund the charges since you didn't intend to buy the product. You don't need to jump to felonies since people sometimes, just sometimes, are reasonable.
posted by kcm at 8:16 PM on January 15, 2006
posted by kcm at 8:16 PM on January 15, 2006
No, you should not report your card stolen, that's technically fraud.
However, you can still do a charge back. Just call the telephone number on the back of your card and say you don't want to pay for it. If they ask why just say you got it and it was broken or something.
This way, you get to keep the item for free without even paying for it. However, I'm sure bad things might happen if you do this all the time. Once or twice in your life is fine, however.
I did a charge back on my Debit card recently. Technically, I had every right to do it (some random company just started billing my card, but rather then try to work it out with them, I just decided to do a charge back within 90 days.) but I still felt guilty.
When I finally did call the company, I got a computer that asked for my 'account number' for which I have no idea. so there really wasn't anything I could do. I did eventually send them an email after they billed me again. It's just 9/mo but really irritating.
posted by delmoi at 8:19 PM on January 15, 2006
However, you can still do a charge back. Just call the telephone number on the back of your card and say you don't want to pay for it. If they ask why just say you got it and it was broken or something.
This way, you get to keep the item for free without even paying for it. However, I'm sure bad things might happen if you do this all the time. Once or twice in your life is fine, however.
I did a charge back on my Debit card recently. Technically, I had every right to do it (some random company just started billing my card, but rather then try to work it out with them, I just decided to do a charge back within 90 days.) but I still felt guilty.
When I finally did call the company, I got a computer that asked for my 'account number' for which I have no idea. so there really wasn't anything I could do. I did eventually send them an email after they billed me again. It's just 9/mo but really irritating.
posted by delmoi at 8:19 PM on January 15, 2006
Ok, reading the rest of your story apparently your CC doesn't want to do a charge back. That's odd.
Call them back and tell them that you couldn't get ahold of the company.
Why the hell did you buy this, by the way?
posted by delmoi at 8:22 PM on January 15, 2006
Call them back and tell them that you couldn't get ahold of the company.
Why the hell did you buy this, by the way?
posted by delmoi at 8:22 PM on January 15, 2006
This is very confusing. Do you want to be a dentist? Maybe you should just take the test.
posted by delmoi at 8:23 PM on January 15, 2006
posted by delmoi at 8:23 PM on January 15, 2006
You can ask for a chargeback from VISA and must provide a reason, eg "didn't authorise payment", "goods not delivered", etc. VISA will put the money in your account with a hold on it and then the merchant has the opportunity to re-present the charge, which they will probably do. If they do so, the money leaves your account again.
You can just leave it at that if you like, or you can contest the re-presentation of the charge. At that point, the merchant has to provide proof that you authorised the charge. If they can prove to VISA's satisfaction that you authorised the charge, VISA will let them keep the money plus they will take a big "fee" from you. If they can't prove it, you keep the money and the merchant is fined.
A signed stub counts as authorisation; the result of a web transaction I'm not sure but I guess it depends how much it has your name and address stamped all over it and what records they kept.
Why the hell did you sign up for some dental skill-test in another country!?
posted by polyglot at 8:25 PM on January 15, 2006
You can just leave it at that if you like, or you can contest the re-presentation of the charge. At that point, the merchant has to provide proof that you authorised the charge. If they can prove to VISA's satisfaction that you authorised the charge, VISA will let them keep the money plus they will take a big "fee" from you. If they can't prove it, you keep the money and the merchant is fined.
A signed stub counts as authorisation; the result of a web transaction I'm not sure but I guess it depends how much it has your name and address stamped all over it and what records they kept.
Why the hell did you sign up for some dental skill-test in another country!?
posted by polyglot at 8:25 PM on January 15, 2006
Credit card companies do internet-related chargebacks all the time. This is a basic problem for online merchants, because if they get too many chargebacks, their merchant accounts will be cancelled. Regular online retail gets chargebacks at something like twice the rate of brick-and-mortar retail, and stuff like porn -- in large part due to, most likely, spouse deniability reasons -- has even higher chargeback rates.
That said, I would first try to discuss with the merchant if an exception could be made, since there was a mistake -- e.g. you thought you were on the Canadian site (which you didn't say, but I wonder).
Givenyou've your "character" has already raised the fraud issue with the card folks, it's going to be difficult for you to pursue any honorable loopholes.
$170 is a pretty steep whim, if you ask me.
posted by dhartung at 8:27 PM on January 15, 2006
That said, I would first try to discuss with the merchant if an exception could be made, since there was a mistake -- e.g. you thought you were on the Canadian site (which you didn't say, but I wonder).
Given
$170 is a pretty steep whim, if you ask me.
posted by dhartung at 8:27 PM on January 15, 2006
Sigh. Just contact the ADA people and tell them it was a mistake, you don't want to take the test, yadda-yadda. Tell them you'll just charge it back to them anyway, so they might as well reverse the charges on their own and cancel your test registration.
This will will likely work, if you're firm enough. It will also likely be a big pain in the ass and involve a lot of phone time, which is your penalty for being dumb.
If they refuse to reverse the charges, I believe you can ethically dispute the charge with your card issuer, as you are not receiving the service that you paid for and you will have made a reasonable effort to resolve the matter with the business.
posted by jellicle at 8:30 PM on January 15, 2006
This will will likely work, if you're firm enough. It will also likely be a big pain in the ass and involve a lot of phone time, which is your penalty for being dumb.
If they refuse to reverse the charges, I believe you can ethically dispute the charge with your card issuer, as you are not receiving the service that you paid for and you will have made a reasonable effort to resolve the matter with the business.
posted by jellicle at 8:30 PM on January 15, 2006
What kcm said. Simply call, and explain that it was a mistake. And do it asap.
If the person on the other end is unsympathetic to your plight, try your CC company. Explain that you mistakenly ordered the thing and have them charged back.
posted by Count Ziggurat at 8:33 PM on January 15, 2006
If the person on the other end is unsympathetic to your plight, try your CC company. Explain that you mistakenly ordered the thing and have them charged back.
posted by Count Ziggurat at 8:33 PM on January 15, 2006
If this is a fictional story ("my character..," "he doesn't really need the money that bad..") I hope it'll be good. Read up on the first chapter of Harry Mathews' OuLiPo novel Tlooth for more insight into the dastardly dentist archetype.
posted by soviet sleepover at 9:04 PM on January 15, 2006
posted by soviet sleepover at 9:04 PM on January 15, 2006
I think the only fair, right thing to do is to call the ADA and ask them. Climb up the food chain over there, and speak to a manager or CSR supervisor.
If they still refuse, it was a pretty damn stupid thing for you to do, but you could do a chargeback.
Note that chargebacks are a major bitch for merchants. They cost the merchant between $25-$50 even if the merchants win and it goes very negatively against the merchant's credit account. (Read: credit card companies start to take notice if, proportionally, there is a large number of chargebacks per legitimate purchase.)
Meanwhile, if they don't want to/care to contest it, it'd be a quick way to get your cash back.
Start reasonably, then escalate. Do not report your card stolen. Boy who cried wolf ramifications there.
If nothing else, enjoy your $170 lesson. You deserve it.
posted by disillusioned at 9:33 PM on January 15, 2006
If they still refuse, it was a pretty damn stupid thing for you to do, but you could do a chargeback.
Note that chargebacks are a major bitch for merchants. They cost the merchant between $25-$50 even if the merchants win and it goes very negatively against the merchant's credit account. (Read: credit card companies start to take notice if, proportionally, there is a large number of chargebacks per legitimate purchase.)
Meanwhile, if they don't want to/care to contest it, it'd be a quick way to get your cash back.
Start reasonably, then escalate. Do not report your card stolen. Boy who cried wolf ramifications there.
If nothing else, enjoy your $170 lesson. You deserve it.
posted by disillusioned at 9:33 PM on January 15, 2006
"Note that chargebacks are a major bitch for merchants. They cost the merchant between $25-$50 even if the merchants win and it goes very negatively against the merchant's credit account. (Read: credit card companies start to take notice if, proportionally, there is a large number of chargebacks per legitimate purchase.)"
I am quoting this because I think a lot of people do not realize that chargebacks aren't painless for the merchant.
I have an online retail business. A while back, I had a bank error that caused about 12 of my credit card payments to get double-charged. One of the customers involved immediately did a chargeback, without even calling me first to say "Hey, why did I get double-charged?" I didn't know yet that it had happened. The bank -- well, the merchant account gateway people, technically -- fixed their error, but the chargeback had already been filed. So my customer got the money back twice and I had to pay a fee. Eventually I was able to talk the customer into straightening things out with his bank so I would get the proper payment back, but I was still out a fee.
The thing is, people have got this idea that chargebacks are just easy and that's what you should do anytime there's any problem, or you have second thoughts. No. The first step should always be to contact the retailer. Give them the chance to work things out. Chargebacks should only be used when the situation absolutely has to be escalated.
People who chargeback at the drop of a hat shouldn't have credit cards.
posted by litlnemo at 10:53 PM on January 15, 2006
I am quoting this because I think a lot of people do not realize that chargebacks aren't painless for the merchant.
I have an online retail business. A while back, I had a bank error that caused about 12 of my credit card payments to get double-charged. One of the customers involved immediately did a chargeback, without even calling me first to say "Hey, why did I get double-charged?" I didn't know yet that it had happened. The bank -- well, the merchant account gateway people, technically -- fixed their error, but the chargeback had already been filed. So my customer got the money back twice and I had to pay a fee. Eventually I was able to talk the customer into straightening things out with his bank so I would get the proper payment back, but I was still out a fee.
The thing is, people have got this idea that chargebacks are just easy and that's what you should do anytime there's any problem, or you have second thoughts. No. The first step should always be to contact the retailer. Give them the chance to work things out. Chargebacks should only be used when the situation absolutely has to be escalated.
People who chargeback at the drop of a hat shouldn't have credit cards.
posted by litlnemo at 10:53 PM on January 15, 2006
People who chargeback at the drop of a hat shouldn't have credit cards.
A lot of people shouldn't have credit cards.
posted by 6550 at 11:20 PM on January 15, 2006
A lot of people shouldn't have credit cards.
posted by 6550 at 11:20 PM on January 15, 2006
If you ordered it online just call up both your CC and the vendor and explain that there was a problem with the web site. You got some strange error and then, bang, next thing you know you've ordered some strange product that you would never normally order. Do not ask them for a refund. A refund is what happens when you intentionally buy something and then want to get your money back. The 'No Refunds' policy should not apply in this place. Simply make it clear that you have no intention for paying for the product and it's in their interest to cancel the order before it ships.
posted by nixerman at 4:39 AM on January 16, 2006
posted by nixerman at 4:39 AM on January 16, 2006
The charge on curbstop's credit card is for Dental admissions testing with the American Dental Association. So there is no product to ship back, or to claim was never recieved.
If you go to the site he has indicated, you discover;
1) it's not the kind of thing that you can order by one or two clicks, there's a long form to fill out (it's to register for testing for admission to a professional education program, after all)
2) the test is designed for both Canadian & American students, so location will not be a loophole
3) the site makes clear in several places that the fees are not refundable or transferrable
While it can't hurt to contact them and try to get them to reverse the charges, the site is clear that they don't. Even under severe financial hardship (which you don't claim to have) they only offer 50% refunds. I wouldn't expect these phone calls to get what you want.
I think you just have to pay the charges. Next time think before you click (and click,and click, and enter your credit card number and signficant amount of personally identifying information).
posted by raedyn at 6:26 AM on January 16, 2006
If you go to the site he has indicated, you discover;
1) it's not the kind of thing that you can order by one or two clicks, there's a long form to fill out (it's to register for testing for admission to a professional education program, after all)
2) the test is designed for both Canadian & American students, so location will not be a loophole
3) the site makes clear in several places that the fees are not refundable or transferrable
While it can't hurt to contact them and try to get them to reverse the charges, the site is clear that they don't. Even under severe financial hardship (which you don't claim to have) they only offer 50% refunds. I wouldn't expect these phone calls to get what you want.
I think you just have to pay the charges. Next time think before you click (and click,and click, and enter your credit card number and signficant amount of personally identifying information).
posted by raedyn at 6:26 AM on January 16, 2006
Bite the bullet and pay it. You clearly recognise that this is a moral issue, and since you've thought about it, you won't be able to get away with convincing yourself you didn't know any better. If you go ahead and steal that $170, you'll lose a lot of self-respect.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 7:13 AM on January 16, 2006
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 7:13 AM on January 16, 2006
People who chargeback at the drop of a hat shouldn't have credit cards.
WTF? Merchants who can't deal with chargebacks shouldn't accept credit card payments. The ability to dispute a charge is one reason people *use* cards. If you run an online business, that's the cost of doing business.
Curbstop's case is marginal -- using a chargeback to avoid paying for a mistake is dishonest. But it's his/her legal right to contest a charge for any reason. If it's not right, it won't be honored. And the ADA can afford the fee. It's not like dentists are paragons of honesty, in my experience.
posted by spitbull at 7:47 AM on January 16, 2006
WTF? Merchants who can't deal with chargebacks shouldn't accept credit card payments. The ability to dispute a charge is one reason people *use* cards. If you run an online business, that's the cost of doing business.
Curbstop's case is marginal -- using a chargeback to avoid paying for a mistake is dishonest. But it's his/her legal right to contest a charge for any reason. If it's not right, it won't be honored. And the ADA can afford the fee. It's not like dentists are paragons of honesty, in my experience.
posted by spitbull at 7:47 AM on January 16, 2006
[Of course this is all just a great big hypothetical scenario inspired when a friend asked me and I decided to write a very detailed short story on it]
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you're asking us what a character in your fictional story should be doing?
My character [...] will use this as a valuable learning experience.
What exactly will he be learning? I honestly can't even imagine how someone could "accidentally" sign up for an exam with the American Dental Association. What did this imaginary person think he was doing?
This question is very odd.
posted by Sibrax at 8:50 AM on January 16, 2006
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, you're asking us what a character in your fictional story should be doing?
My character [...] will use this as a valuable learning experience.
What exactly will he be learning? I honestly can't even imagine how someone could "accidentally" sign up for an exam with the American Dental Association. What did this imaginary person think he was doing?
This question is very odd.
posted by Sibrax at 8:50 AM on January 16, 2006
Even after reading all the replies I am still confused. If something was shipped to you and you have not yet received it, just refuse it when it is delivered. If it arrives via UPS or FedEx and they knock on the door to drop it off, tell them you "refuse delivery" and to return it to the sender. If they drop it of when you're not home, call them and tell them you didn't open it and that you want to "refuse delivery" and have them pick it up and send it back. If it was shipped via the postal service, write "return to sender" on it, and drop it in the mail. Here in the US - where the company is located it woudl seem - FTC regulations say you cannot be billed for items you don't receive, regardless of whatever "policy" the merchant has. At this point, call your credit card company and request a "chargeback" as you never got what you ordered. Leave it at that. I used to manage the returns department for a large online merchant, this is my backyard.
If the item was "electronically delivered" to you rather than actually sent to you, you are in a little more of a gray area but I think you can get your money back. As others have said, just call up the credit card company and request a "chargeback" as you did not get what you ordered, the merchant confused you into buying the wrong thing. Leave it at that and you should get your money back.
posted by pwb503 at 10:31 AM on January 16, 2006
If the item was "electronically delivered" to you rather than actually sent to you, you are in a little more of a gray area but I think you can get your money back. As others have said, just call up the credit card company and request a "chargeback" as you did not get what you ordered, the merchant confused you into buying the wrong thing. Leave it at that and you should get your money back.
posted by pwb503 at 10:31 AM on January 16, 2006
Contact the ADA and blame it on your children if you're really that worried about it. Who cares if you don't have any? Make them up!
"Yeah, I'm really sorry, I found out that my kids got my credit card and decided to play a prank on me.. could you reverse these charges?" All they can do is laugh at you and say no.
The imaginary kids thing also works great when you order Skinemax porno flicks and don't want to pay for them because they're lame. Call Comcast, blame the kids! ;-)
posted by drstein at 11:29 AM on January 16, 2006
"Yeah, I'm really sorry, I found out that my kids got my credit card and decided to play a prank on me.. could you reverse these charges?" All they can do is laugh at you and say no.
The imaginary kids thing also works great when you order Skinemax porno flicks and don't want to pay for them because they're lame. Call Comcast, blame the kids! ;-)
posted by drstein at 11:29 AM on January 16, 2006
In the future, if you have an American Express Gold or Platinum and this sort of thing happens to you they have a protection program that allows you to return merchandise to them when the retailer won't take it (if it's like new and within 90 days). This has saved me a few times, in circumstances sort of like this. Perhaps will help down the road.
posted by sled at 1:04 PM on January 16, 2006
posted by sled at 1:04 PM on January 16, 2006
"WTF? Merchants who can't deal with chargebacks shouldn't accept credit card payments. The ability to dispute a charge is one reason people *use* cards. If you run an online business, that's the cost of doing business."
Please read what I said more carefully. I said 'people who charge back at the drop of a hat,' meaning people who charge back either frivolously or as a first step when there is a problem. Chargebacks aren't meant to be the first step in solving a dispute. The first step should always be to try to clear it up with the merchant first. Most merchants are honest and well-intentioned and will try to make things right. (In my example above, the double-charging mistake wasn't even my mistake -- the credit-card processing gateway people had a computer error that caused a bunch of orders on the same night to be processed twice without any action from me. I didn't even know, and had not received a bank statement yet that would show it. But if the customer had called me, I would have immediately looked into it, and it would have been solved quickly. Instead, he went straight to the chargeback, thinking that this is how you deal with it -- and cost me a bunch of money in fees, not to mention a black mark with the merchant account bank.) If the merchant is unwilling to be reasonable, then you consider a chargeback. People who chargeback when they shouldn't cause prices to go up for everyone, and they are irresponsible.
Now, in the case of this poster's question, it should be clear that I think a chargeback is unethical in his case -- however, it's a confusing question and situation. I think he has to pay the charge, though, unless he can talk the ADA into letting him out of it.
(Is this really for a story? If so... it's strange. Well, it's strange either way.)
posted by litlnemo at 2:38 PM on January 16, 2006
Please read what I said more carefully. I said 'people who charge back at the drop of a hat,' meaning people who charge back either frivolously or as a first step when there is a problem. Chargebacks aren't meant to be the first step in solving a dispute. The first step should always be to try to clear it up with the merchant first. Most merchants are honest and well-intentioned and will try to make things right. (In my example above, the double-charging mistake wasn't even my mistake -- the credit-card processing gateway people had a computer error that caused a bunch of orders on the same night to be processed twice without any action from me. I didn't even know, and had not received a bank statement yet that would show it. But if the customer had called me, I would have immediately looked into it, and it would have been solved quickly. Instead, he went straight to the chargeback, thinking that this is how you deal with it -- and cost me a bunch of money in fees, not to mention a black mark with the merchant account bank.) If the merchant is unwilling to be reasonable, then you consider a chargeback. People who chargeback when they shouldn't cause prices to go up for everyone, and they are irresponsible.
Now, in the case of this poster's question, it should be clear that I think a chargeback is unethical in his case -- however, it's a confusing question and situation. I think he has to pay the charge, though, unless he can talk the ADA into letting him out of it.
(Is this really for a story? If so... it's strange. Well, it's strange either way.)
posted by litlnemo at 2:38 PM on January 16, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
For $170, no one is going to charge you (or the hypothetical person) with anything. The police (and prosecutors) have far, far more serious things (and far too much paperwork, as is) to be bothered.
posted by WestCoaster at 8:09 PM on January 15, 2006