Innocuous marijuana use and law enforcement
April 8, 2008 7:43 PM Subscribe
I'm wondering about variations in the enforcement of marijuana laws. Specific question within:
Two college students are sitting at a bus stop passing a joint back and forth. No one is around. Unbeknownst to them, a police officer comes up behind them catching them red-handed. Now, I know what would happen to these kids in my city -- they would likely be arrested and booked -- but what would likely befall them in San Francisco, or New York City, or Seattle, or YOUR city? Basically, I'm curious about real-world, regional variation in "street level" enforcement of simple marijuana possession in situations like the one I've described.
Two college students are sitting at a bus stop passing a joint back and forth. No one is around. Unbeknownst to them, a police officer comes up behind them catching them red-handed. Now, I know what would happen to these kids in my city -- they would likely be arrested and booked -- but what would likely befall them in San Francisco, or New York City, or Seattle, or YOUR city? Basically, I'm curious about real-world, regional variation in "street level" enforcement of simple marijuana possession in situations like the one I've described.
In my city, Albuquerque, the cops would pretty much leave you alone if you were in your house, or in your backyard, but at a bus stop, or otherwise blatantly in plain sight, the street-level enforcement would likely be arrest.
I can report on another city, as well - about 15 years ago I was arrested, along with four friends, for smoking a joint in a public park in Cleveland, Ohio. We were arrested and booked, had to pay $150 each in fines. That was pretty stupid of us.
I've heard, anecdotally, that your life is pretty much ruined if you get busted for mj in Texas, with the exception of Austin.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 8:04 PM on April 8, 2008
I can report on another city, as well - about 15 years ago I was arrested, along with four friends, for smoking a joint in a public park in Cleveland, Ohio. We were arrested and booked, had to pay $150 each in fines. That was pretty stupid of us.
I've heard, anecdotally, that your life is pretty much ruined if you get busted for mj in Texas, with the exception of Austin.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 8:04 PM on April 8, 2008
San Francisco has officially labeled marijuana offenses to be its "lowest priority." Here, public smoking might get a scolding from a cop, "hey, kids, take that stuff outta here," or not even that if the cop were doing something else. No arrest and booking.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:06 PM on April 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:06 PM on April 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
That would have gotten you arrested in every place I've lived, which includes a few places in Connecticut, Maine, and N.VA, although I'm not basing that on a ton of interaction with the police in any of those places. (My sense of N.VA is weaker than that of various places in New England, since I haven't lived there as long.)
In general, in no place that I've lived -- college towns included -- would it have been safe to actually get caught red-handed, smoking an obvious joint. It was sort of one of those things where if you were dumb enough to get caught doing it, you were going to get in trouble -- but it was almost more for the stupidity of getting caught than actually for the act.
I've known a few police officers and most of them admitted that they really dislike arresting kids for simple possession. (I'm sure there are some cops out there that really buy into the DEA rhetoric and think they're doing something good, but that's not anyone that I know. Might be a generational thing.) But if you are sitting there and bald-facedly smoking a joint, in a position where some other member of the public could see you, and more importantly, see the police officer see you, then you're going to get booked. It puts the police officer in an awkward position: when it's that obvious they can't ignore it, even if they'd prefer to not waste their time, because they could be accused of selective enforcement later.
What you probably could get away with would have been smoking a cigarette that had been partially repacked with marijuana, but still looked basically like a cigarette. If you looked otherwise like an upstanding citizen, I've heard of police just giving a raised eyebrow to the smell and walking past. I've heard stories of that happening (in Boston, particularly). The difference is that you're giving the police officer a little plausible deniability. In a similar vein, I've lived in a few places where it was well-known that if you put your drink of choice in some sort of non-alcoholic container, you wouldn't be hassled if you drank it in public view (despite the incongruity of a bunch of college students standing around a garbage can and drinking Fresca at 10PM on a Friday night, or sipping at some Poland Spring when the ambient temperature was below the freezing point of water), provided that you weren't being otherwise obnoxious. You're not, of course, actually fooling anybody -- least of all the police. But by not being obvious about it, you avoid challenging their authority, and they pass you over for more interesting game.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:34 PM on April 8, 2008
In general, in no place that I've lived -- college towns included -- would it have been safe to actually get caught red-handed, smoking an obvious joint. It was sort of one of those things where if you were dumb enough to get caught doing it, you were going to get in trouble -- but it was almost more for the stupidity of getting caught than actually for the act.
I've known a few police officers and most of them admitted that they really dislike arresting kids for simple possession. (I'm sure there are some cops out there that really buy into the DEA rhetoric and think they're doing something good, but that's not anyone that I know. Might be a generational thing.) But if you are sitting there and bald-facedly smoking a joint, in a position where some other member of the public could see you, and more importantly, see the police officer see you, then you're going to get booked. It puts the police officer in an awkward position: when it's that obvious they can't ignore it, even if they'd prefer to not waste their time, because they could be accused of selective enforcement later.
What you probably could get away with would have been smoking a cigarette that had been partially repacked with marijuana, but still looked basically like a cigarette. If you looked otherwise like an upstanding citizen, I've heard of police just giving a raised eyebrow to the smell and walking past. I've heard stories of that happening (in Boston, particularly). The difference is that you're giving the police officer a little plausible deniability. In a similar vein, I've lived in a few places where it was well-known that if you put your drink of choice in some sort of non-alcoholic container, you wouldn't be hassled if you drank it in public view (despite the incongruity of a bunch of college students standing around a garbage can and drinking Fresca at 10PM on a Friday night, or sipping at some Poland Spring when the ambient temperature was below the freezing point of water), provided that you weren't being otherwise obnoxious. You're not, of course, actually fooling anybody -- least of all the police. But by not being obvious about it, you avoid challenging their authority, and they pass you over for more interesting game.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:34 PM on April 8, 2008
In my city (Omaha, Nebraska) they'd receive a citation and a $100 fine. It is worse to be caught as an underage drinker with a can of beer.
posted by Ostara at 8:48 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by Ostara at 8:48 PM on April 8, 2008
In San Francisco it would not surprise me if the cop asked them for a hit. San Francisco cops are extremely mellow and friendly, more so even than the average San Franciscan, which is really saying something.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:53 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:53 PM on April 8, 2008
In Vancouver (BC) the cop would tell them to toss it, if anything were to happen at all.
posted by Nelsormensch at 8:58 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by Nelsormensch at 8:58 PM on April 8, 2008
Yes, San Francisco, along with Santa Monica, and a handful of other cities, has officially labeled marijuana as the lowest law enforcement priority. However, people still get arrested for marijuana offenses, almost entirely when smoking in public. It is still up to the individual officer on the street, so if they decide to arrest you, they probably will, and the odds of that are much better if you're sitting in a public space like a bus stop, or if you're already doing something that pisses them off gets their attention. Whether or not the DA actually prosecutes you for anything is a different matter, and that's even less likely in San Francisco.
And San Francisco now has a law against smoking at bus stops, so one would be violating that particular ordinance. NOT that I have ever seen that one enforced!
One final piece of advice - some parts of SF are a national park (Presidio, Ocean Beach, Baker Beach, e.g.) and are patrolled by federal law enforcement. They don't pay so much attention to local preferences on things like marijuana.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:12 PM on April 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
And San Francisco now has a law against smoking at bus stops, so one would be violating that particular ordinance. NOT that I have ever seen that one enforced!
One final piece of advice - some parts of SF are a national park (Presidio, Ocean Beach, Baker Beach, e.g.) and are patrolled by federal law enforcement. They don't pay so much attention to local preferences on things like marijuana.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:12 PM on April 8, 2008 [1 favorite]
homeless in Pasadena CA, cop took my weed and put it back in my pocket. Told him about the broken mirror in my backpack, said "yes sir" and "no sir". No problems, I've been yanked out of squats and down on the ground with hands behind my head, only a**hole cops take your weed.
posted by zengargoyle at 9:48 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by zengargoyle at 9:48 PM on April 8, 2008
In Melbourne, Australia, it somewhat depends on the arresting officer, but (s)he would likely confiscate it and give them a stern talking to, and take their details. If they gave him any lip, they may get summonsed and end up with a non-conviction fine, maybe even in extremis a community service order.
posted by wilful at 9:48 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by wilful at 9:48 PM on April 8, 2008
NY, LA, PHL, 99% of the time said officer would keep walking. unless you're being an asshole about it, thye have real crime to worry about.
posted by swbarrett at 10:05 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by swbarrett at 10:05 PM on April 8, 2008
In Chicago:
Historically it all depends on the context of the infraction. White "college kids" behaving themselves on a park bench would very likely be over looked. Black youths would be rounded up, booked, and given a court date. The police are pragmatic... or racist depending on your view.
Da Mayor has been pressing for the cops to give out tickets for marijuana use and possession in small amounts rather than further bogging down "the system" with such trivial infractions. Not sure how far that has gotten, but I've been told by pot heads in the know that weed is functionally legal for white people in Chicago. I can attest that at the outdoor concerts I've been to (mostly Pitchfork) pot use was very prominent.
posted by wfrgms at 10:12 PM on April 8, 2008
Historically it all depends on the context of the infraction. White "college kids" behaving themselves on a park bench would very likely be over looked. Black youths would be rounded up, booked, and given a court date. The police are pragmatic... or racist depending on your view.
Da Mayor has been pressing for the cops to give out tickets for marijuana use and possession in small amounts rather than further bogging down "the system" with such trivial infractions. Not sure how far that has gotten, but I've been told by pot heads in the know that weed is functionally legal for white people in Chicago. I can attest that at the outdoor concerts I've been to (mostly Pitchfork) pot use was very prominent.
posted by wfrgms at 10:12 PM on April 8, 2008
Yes, in NYC it also depends what color you are.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:43 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:43 PM on April 8, 2008
In Hawaii, it's a double-edged sword to be known for growing good herb. On the one hand, you've got good herb. On the other hand, you have Weed & Seed programs, Operation Green Harvest, and other stat-juking government actions to make it look like they've got a handle on the situation. With that in mind, what police will do to you is heavily, heavily influenced by the situation - what you look like, where you are, and what's going on around you.
In your example, if the college kids were at a bus stop in broad daylight in an urban setting, they might get searched if they have backpacks on (just in case they're severely incompetent dealers). If they have nothing but the one joint and a dime bag, the cop would probably tell them to get rid of it and move along. If they're in an area where it's designated Weed & Seed or near a school, they might be taken in for questioning. The cops would probably have to do so, and be pissed at the dudes for not making the effort to hide it.
On the other hand, if you're at a concert, downtown after hours, or cruising at a beach/park, lighting up is usually not a big deal unless someone complains. If you're around more than a few dozen people in an appropriately irie and outdoor atmosphere, you can almost expect to get a whiff of chronic now and then. In those situations, I'm more worried about other citizens narcing on me than I am worried about the cops. They've got bigger problems - violent drunks and iceheads - but once a taxpayer has a problem, that's game over.
posted by krippledkonscious at 12:09 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
In your example, if the college kids were at a bus stop in broad daylight in an urban setting, they might get searched if they have backpacks on (just in case they're severely incompetent dealers). If they have nothing but the one joint and a dime bag, the cop would probably tell them to get rid of it and move along. If they're in an area where it's designated Weed & Seed or near a school, they might be taken in for questioning. The cops would probably have to do so, and be pissed at the dudes for not making the effort to hide it.
On the other hand, if you're at a concert, downtown after hours, or cruising at a beach/park, lighting up is usually not a big deal unless someone complains. If you're around more than a few dozen people in an appropriately irie and outdoor atmosphere, you can almost expect to get a whiff of chronic now and then. In those situations, I'm more worried about other citizens narcing on me than I am worried about the cops. They've got bigger problems - violent drunks and iceheads - but once a taxpayer has a problem, that's game over.
posted by krippledkonscious at 12:09 AM on April 9, 2008 [1 favorite]
In Sydney, Australia, you would certainly get police attention. The worst that would happen is likely an official caution, but the vibe seems to be we won't hassle you if you smoke in private, but don't be too blatant. I think you could be gaoled for cannabis use, but I haven't heard any magistrate imposing that in a long time.
I occasionally smell smoke in the Sydney CBD, but it is rare. Much more common in London or Europe, if that gives you a reading.
posted by bystander at 5:10 AM on April 9, 2008
I occasionally smell smoke in the Sydney CBD, but it is rare. Much more common in London or Europe, if that gives you a reading.
posted by bystander at 5:10 AM on April 9, 2008
Oh, but to compare to some other posts, if you are in a crowd at a concert or pretty much any other sort of mass gathering it is generally ignored.
The Catholic World Youth Day is coming to Sydney this year, I suspect even it will be the same.
posted by bystander at 5:14 AM on April 9, 2008
The Catholic World Youth Day is coming to Sydney this year, I suspect even it will be the same.
posted by bystander at 5:14 AM on April 9, 2008
Another reason that places like Chicago are trying to make pot a citation offense rather than a arrest offense is that these things go to the municipalities' administrative courts rather than the county "real" court. Which means the fine they take goes into their budget rather than into the county/state budget.
My suburb (outside of Chicago) does this- pot busts end up with the weed confiscated (and not reported) and a $50 paraphernalia possession ticket. Getting caught with beer is a $250 fine.
posted by gjc at 6:25 AM on April 9, 2008
My suburb (outside of Chicago) does this- pot busts end up with the weed confiscated (and not reported) and a $50 paraphernalia possession ticket. Getting caught with beer is a $250 fine.
posted by gjc at 6:25 AM on April 9, 2008
wfrgms is right about chicago ... but once outside of city limits, enforcement is typically stronger for all, esp. racial minorities. a chicago cop might ignore a violation, but a naperville cop will arrest you.
posted by lester at 6:27 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by lester at 6:27 AM on April 9, 2008
In Minneapolis (as all of Minnesota) possession of up to 2 ounces is decriminalized so long as it's in a single container.
Once my sister, my roommate, and a few other friends of ours were driving back to our house in the burbs. We'd been smoking in the car prior to the movie- my roommate had some ridiculously dank buds, and he didn't want to bring it into the theater because they just reeked, so he dropped it in the glove box (bad move, I know, but nobody else saw him). Fortunately we hadn't smoked on the way back.
As we're rolling through our neighborhood, a cop pulls up behind us. We weren't speeding and were obeying every traffic law applicable to the situation, but got pulled over nonetheless (apparently being 5 young people in a sedan after midnight counts as probable cause). The cop asks for license and registration, and when I open the glove box the baggie is sitting right there. The cop asks to see it, I hand it over, etc. etc. He took my sister and my roommate out of the car (he claimed the bag and she was driving), gave them a lecture, and then did the shadiest shit you could possibly imagine...he reached into the bag, grabbed all the buds, and then pretended to throw it into the grass. He then told us, "I'm going to make sure this gets disposed of properly."
Yeah, I'll tell you one thing right now, there's only one way to properly dispose of buds that dank- SMOKE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM, which I'm sure is what he did. He didn't ask us if we had a piece or anything, either.
In any situation where one of my friends has been caught with buds, the cop simply confiscates the bag and tickets them for possession of paraphernalia. I kind of wonder if the police department in my area ever wonders how they catch so many people for paraphernalia but never for petty possession.
posted by baphomet at 6:48 AM on April 9, 2008
Once my sister, my roommate, and a few other friends of ours were driving back to our house in the burbs. We'd been smoking in the car prior to the movie- my roommate had some ridiculously dank buds, and he didn't want to bring it into the theater because they just reeked, so he dropped it in the glove box (bad move, I know, but nobody else saw him). Fortunately we hadn't smoked on the way back.
As we're rolling through our neighborhood, a cop pulls up behind us. We weren't speeding and were obeying every traffic law applicable to the situation, but got pulled over nonetheless (apparently being 5 young people in a sedan after midnight counts as probable cause). The cop asks for license and registration, and when I open the glove box the baggie is sitting right there. The cop asks to see it, I hand it over, etc. etc. He took my sister and my roommate out of the car (he claimed the bag and she was driving), gave them a lecture, and then did the shadiest shit you could possibly imagine...he reached into the bag, grabbed all the buds, and then pretended to throw it into the grass. He then told us, "I'm going to make sure this gets disposed of properly."
Yeah, I'll tell you one thing right now, there's only one way to properly dispose of buds that dank- SMOKE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM, which I'm sure is what he did. He didn't ask us if we had a piece or anything, either.
In any situation where one of my friends has been caught with buds, the cop simply confiscates the bag and tickets them for possession of paraphernalia. I kind of wonder if the police department in my area ever wonders how they catch so many people for paraphernalia but never for petty possession.
posted by baphomet at 6:48 AM on April 9, 2008
State by State Marijuana laws, penalties and information.
NORML.org
posted by whoda at 8:25 AM on April 9, 2008
NORML.org
posted by whoda at 8:25 AM on April 9, 2008
Chapel Hill/Carrboro NC is pretty much "look the other way" as well, in my experience. Friend of mine got pulled over with a roach in the ashtray and the cop commented on it and told him to be more careful next time. No search, no citation, nothing.
posted by Who_Am_I at 8:27 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by Who_Am_I at 8:27 AM on April 9, 2008
You should check out webehigh.com, which gives you local info on marijuana enforcement worldwide.
When I was in Amsterdam I was on a tram out on the suburbs, I saw two other guys on the train smoking a joint. Other people on the train, who I presume at this point were pretty much all locals, were clearly pretty pissed, and one by one they left that car and sat or stood in the next one over. I'm pretty sure that even in Amsterdam, this could be a citation or something, not to mention pretty rude.
posted by Brian James at 8:58 AM on April 9, 2008
When I was in Amsterdam I was on a tram out on the suburbs, I saw two other guys on the train smoking a joint. Other people on the train, who I presume at this point were pretty much all locals, were clearly pretty pissed, and one by one they left that car and sat or stood in the next one over. I'm pretty sure that even in Amsterdam, this could be a citation or something, not to mention pretty rude.
posted by Brian James at 8:58 AM on April 9, 2008
wow, four "prettys" in one message. i'm embarrassed.
posted by Brian James at 8:59 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by Brian James at 8:59 AM on April 9, 2008
This was nearly ten years ago now, but my college roommate was arrested for smoking pot in Washington Square Park in New York (yes, she was a complete idiot--our dorm was 15 feet away, but they just couldn't wait to go inside and smoke like normal people). She and a friend were passing a joint, and a cop spotted them. They were arrested, held overnight, and then released the next morning. They had a court date about a month later, at which time they were sentenced to a $100 fine and 1 year probation, with the condition that if they stayed out of trouble for the year, their records would be expunged. They did, and they were. So basically, if you're an otherwise law-abiding white NYU student from Long Island, smoking pot in public in NY will cost you $100 and a night in jail. At least, it did in 1999. But I'm told that the cops around NYU are basically the same as they always were.
posted by decathecting at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2008
posted by decathecting at 9:19 AM on April 9, 2008
As others have said, in San Francisco, the police will generally look the other way, or might tell you to put it out. The exception to this would be if there are kids around (or if one of our stoners happened to be an especially teenaged-looking college student). If it's a slow night, or something doesn't seem quite right about the guys on the bench, the officer might require ID and check for outstanding warrants and such. While waiting for the check to come back, the cop will probably offer a lecture, telling the students that they shouldn't be so blatant about getting high in public.
The officer certainly does have the ability to arrest the students and otherwise ruin their day, but when the case reaches the prosecutors office, it will probably be dropped. SF's former D.A. Terance Hallinan declared it official policy not to prosecute simple possession cases, and current DA Kamela Harris seems to be following in his footsteps -- she's a vocal medical marijuana supporter who stays fairly silent about other uses.
In the unlikely event that you are convicted, plead guilty, or otherwise have to actually pay a penalty for this crime, it will be $100. This is thanks to the 1975 Moscone Act, which sets that as the state maximum for possessing amounts less than one ounce (back in the 70s, $100 was a lot of bread -- but the state has made no effort to adjust for inflation).
However, if one of our students is under 21, and is convicted/pleads out, they can (and probably will) lose their driver's license for a year.
posted by toxic at 9:21 AM on April 9, 2008
The officer certainly does have the ability to arrest the students and otherwise ruin their day, but when the case reaches the prosecutors office, it will probably be dropped. SF's former D.A. Terance Hallinan declared it official policy not to prosecute simple possession cases, and current DA Kamela Harris seems to be following in his footsteps -- she's a vocal medical marijuana supporter who stays fairly silent about other uses.
In the unlikely event that you are convicted, plead guilty, or otherwise have to actually pay a penalty for this crime, it will be $100. This is thanks to the 1975 Moscone Act, which sets that as the state maximum for possessing amounts less than one ounce (back in the 70s, $100 was a lot of bread -- but the state has made no effort to adjust for inflation).
However, if one of our students is under 21, and is convicted/pleads out, they can (and probably will) lose their driver's license for a year.
posted by toxic at 9:21 AM on April 9, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by lrodman at 7:50 PM on April 8, 2008