It's because I'm brown, isn't it?
April 3, 2008 4:35 PM
Am I reading too much into assumptions made by strangers or are they the ones at fault?
I was introduced by a friend to a friend of hers recently, whose first question after the pleasantries where exchanged was, "Are you guys related?". We really look nothing alike. At all. The only thing we share in common is a similar cultural ancestry (different shades of brown). Now, I usually wouldn't think much of it (and I shrugged it off at the time) but this has happened to me a few times and not with the same friend. It has always been with someone else who shared similar background, i.e, the only thing we actually have in common is that we're both brown! I wouldn't go so far as claiming these people were racist, but more likely, ignorant? We do live in a white-majority suburb but not overwhelmingly so particularly not on campus where this most recent incident occurred.
Do you think I'm right in assuming that they just think we're related because we share the same colour rather than the off chance that we might actually look related? (Let me stress again that we really don't. Really. And I haven't with the other people this has been asked of, either.)
Would it have been off-colour (ha!) to call them out over it? I did want to say jokingly at the time "You only think that because we're brown, don't you?" Too inappropriate or just enough to make them realise where they have mis-stepped?
If you feel that that would be too rude to say to someone you've just met, what do you recommend be done about it instead? I don't want to let it slide, to be honest. It is obviously not malice on their part but I am sick of assumptions like this being made about because I'm an Other race.
Finally, am I just way off-base? Do I need to dial down my sensitivity levels when it comes to issues of race?
I was introduced by a friend to a friend of hers recently, whose first question after the pleasantries where exchanged was, "Are you guys related?". We really look nothing alike. At all. The only thing we share in common is a similar cultural ancestry (different shades of brown). Now, I usually wouldn't think much of it (and I shrugged it off at the time) but this has happened to me a few times and not with the same friend. It has always been with someone else who shared similar background, i.e, the only thing we actually have in common is that we're both brown! I wouldn't go so far as claiming these people were racist, but more likely, ignorant? We do live in a white-majority suburb but not overwhelmingly so particularly not on campus where this most recent incident occurred.
Do you think I'm right in assuming that they just think we're related because we share the same colour rather than the off chance that we might actually look related? (Let me stress again that we really don't. Really. And I haven't with the other people this has been asked of, either.)
Would it have been off-colour (ha!) to call them out over it? I did want to say jokingly at the time "You only think that because we're brown, don't you?" Too inappropriate or just enough to make them realise where they have mis-stepped?
If you feel that that would be too rude to say to someone you've just met, what do you recommend be done about it instead? I don't want to let it slide, to be honest. It is obviously not malice on their part but I am sick of assumptions like this being made about because I'm an Other race.
Finally, am I just way off-base? Do I need to dial down my sensitivity levels when it comes to issues of race?
It is inappropriate on their part - after all, the world's full of brown people, and to assume that two of them that happen to be in one's presence at the same time are related is a bit beyond belief! However, it's probably always good to dial down your sensitivity, if that's at all possible. I think the joking reply would have been a good step. Hell, I've had asian people I know joke that "all white people look the same to them!", so it's probably a good way to make them feel a bit stupid, and turn it into a joke for yourself.
posted by Jimbob at 4:46 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by Jimbob at 4:46 PM on April 3, 2008
We went to see a taping of Showtime at the Apollo a few weeks ago, and were some of the only white people in the audience. There was one white girl in the amateur competition, and she had packed the house with a lot of her friends and family. The women behind us assumed that we knew her, too, and asked us about it when we didn't cheer for her during the judging. I cracked a joke about not all white people knowing each other, and we all had a good laugh. So, yes, it might happen because of your race, and I don't think it would be out of line to make a joke about it, if you can do so without betraying any anger or frustration.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:46 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:46 PM on April 3, 2008
Doesn't everybody need to dial down the pigment-sensitvity detector a notch?
I mean, maybe they were bone heads. Maybe you are too sensitive about being lumped into one big brown family. Maybe it's just a sign of character to say something like, "well, even you and I are related whitey, so I suppose you're right." Or mabye it's a sign of greater character to just say "nope, don't think so, how 'bout those Toronto Bluejays?"
posted by DenOfSizer at 4:47 PM on April 3, 2008
I mean, maybe they were bone heads. Maybe you are too sensitive about being lumped into one big brown family. Maybe it's just a sign of character to say something like, "well, even you and I are related whitey, so I suppose you're right." Or mabye it's a sign of greater character to just say "nope, don't think so, how 'bout those Toronto Bluejays?"
posted by DenOfSizer at 4:47 PM on April 3, 2008
I think joking about it would be a good way to deal with it if you find it annoying.
posted by delmoi at 4:49 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by delmoi at 4:49 PM on April 3, 2008
Probably it is because of your race. But I don't think you're going to get anywhere by calling them out; they'll just think you're an asshole. People don't like being called out, even when they're wrong. If you deliver your line jokingly enough, though, and really make an effort not to seem hostile, then I think it could definitely work (where "work" = "not get them pissed at you, and possibly get them to think a little bit").
posted by equalpants at 4:50 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by equalpants at 4:50 PM on April 3, 2008
Are you sure you didn't refer to the friends as brother or sister in front of the whites? Brown people sometimes do that, and you have to be careful in the presence of white people.
Write it off to ignorance. I've caught whiffs of this in different countries. The response I used is: "Oh really? I don't think so at all? How do we look alike?" If they're racist, they'll catch themselves before they say you're the same color. Or maybe just say "Well we don't have many your-color people around here." Or maybe name some similar feature you hadn't considered.
The things that were pointed out to my supposed doppelganger and me were things we hadn't really considered before. They focused on different features than us.
posted by FuManchu at 4:51 PM on April 3, 2008
Write it off to ignorance. I've caught whiffs of this in different countries. The response I used is: "Oh really? I don't think so at all? How do we look alike?" If they're racist, they'll catch themselves before they say you're the same color. Or maybe just say "Well we don't have many your-color people around here." Or maybe name some similar feature you hadn't considered.
The things that were pointed out to my supposed doppelganger and me were things we hadn't really considered before. They focused on different features than us.
posted by FuManchu at 4:51 PM on April 3, 2008
Along those lines, you could joke about how you make the same mistake with white people.
You're not off-base for being bothered by this, imo, but in order for it to not drive you nuts, maybe defusing the situation with a joke will help?
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:53 PM on April 3, 2008
You're not off-base for being bothered by this, imo, but in order for it to not drive you nuts, maybe defusing the situation with a joke will help?
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 4:53 PM on April 3, 2008
I ALWAYS crack a joke when that happens . The people asking may be ignorant, but it's human and harmless.
And it's not brown, it's Greek God Bronze.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:53 PM on April 3, 2008
And it's not brown, it's Greek God Bronze.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:53 PM on April 3, 2008
It's possible that you are running into a documented quirk of human facial recognition. People seem less able to distinguish facial characteristics among people of another race. If you think about it, it make sense in terms of evolution. In earlier times, it would be far more common to have day to day interaction with people of your own race so more fine grained distinctions would be important there. If you came into contact with people of another race, it would be more important to just quickly recognize them as an outsider. There is a little abstract on the study here
This is not to say, of course, that the actions you describe are ok. It just seemed like the study was related to the phenomenon in some way.
posted by MasterShake at 4:55 PM on April 3, 2008
This is not to say, of course, that the actions you describe are ok. It just seemed like the study was related to the phenomenon in some way.
posted by MasterShake at 4:55 PM on April 3, 2008
Maybe you could get the same effect without posing it slightly differently:
You: "Related? What would make you think that! We look nothing alike!"
That leaves the person to come to the obvious realization that they were totally stuck in McWhiteyland where all people of colour must be related. They can self-admonish as necessary.
If I were the person who made this faux-pas, based as it is on some kind of ethno-centricism, I would -- no matter how joking the accusation -- feel a need to trip all over my awkward self to deny that colour was the only base for my dumb-ass question. And that's all fine to call me out, but it may make continued conversation between you and dumb-ass me even more uncomfortable.
Don't dial down your sensitivities.
I'm white and live in fear of saying ridiculous shit like that. I say that for 2 reasons:
My answer is from the point of view of someone who doesn't have to put up with everyday racism (or any day racism, for that matter), and therefore I'm not even sure it's helpful.
I always want to know when I am being an idiot. In an ideal world that would happen without too much shame attached, but you take your lessons as you find 'em.
posted by girlpublisher at 4:59 PM on April 3, 2008
You: "Related? What would make you think that! We look nothing alike!"
That leaves the person to come to the obvious realization that they were totally stuck in McWhiteyland where all people of colour must be related. They can self-admonish as necessary.
If I were the person who made this faux-pas, based as it is on some kind of ethno-centricism, I would -- no matter how joking the accusation -- feel a need to trip all over my awkward self to deny that colour was the only base for my dumb-ass question. And that's all fine to call me out, but it may make continued conversation between you and dumb-ass me even more uncomfortable.
Don't dial down your sensitivities.
I'm white and live in fear of saying ridiculous shit like that. I say that for 2 reasons:
My answer is from the point of view of someone who doesn't have to put up with everyday racism (or any day racism, for that matter), and therefore I'm not even sure it's helpful.
I always want to know when I am being an idiot. In an ideal world that would happen without too much shame attached, but you take your lessons as you find 'em.
posted by girlpublisher at 4:59 PM on April 3, 2008
No, I don't think you're way off base. And I don't think you need to dial down anything.
There is something called The Other Race Effect that is often mentioned in reference to this issue. Wikipedia says it's "a facial recognition phenomenon in which individuals show superior performance in identifying faces of their own race when compared with memory for faces of another, less familiar race."
It's used a lot in eyewitness identification, but I think it probably applies to some extent to day to day interactions, too.
On the very rare occasions when I have been a racial minority (for example, I lived in Mexico for three months) I have experienced the same thing and been asked if I am related to whatever random white person I happen to be with who I don't look very much like except hair and skin color.
It feels very odd when other people are blind to your unique snowflakeness like that. And not in a good way.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:01 PM on April 3, 2008
There is something called The Other Race Effect that is often mentioned in reference to this issue. Wikipedia says it's "a facial recognition phenomenon in which individuals show superior performance in identifying faces of their own race when compared with memory for faces of another, less familiar race."
It's used a lot in eyewitness identification, but I think it probably applies to some extent to day to day interactions, too.
On the very rare occasions when I have been a racial minority (for example, I lived in Mexico for three months) I have experienced the same thing and been asked if I am related to whatever random white person I happen to be with who I don't look very much like except hair and skin color.
It feels very odd when other people are blind to your unique snowflakeness like that. And not in a good way.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:01 PM on April 3, 2008
on preview--yeah, exactly what girlpublisher said.
Since happens repeatedly...well, yeah, it sounds likely to be related to your race. Particularly if you're of a background underrepresented in the area--say you're Pakistani and your friend's Sri Lankan, and there are few Asians of any ethnicity around. I can see someone having sort of a dumb half-conscious inner monologue along the lines of "Huh! What are the chances of there being two Indian people here in Podunkton?! Must be related." Or something.
I did want to say jokingly at the time "You only think that because we're brown, don't you?"
That would make me wildly uncomfortable if I'd just made such a blunder. On the other hand, it should. I think I'd mostly be ashamed of myself and expect you to have a poor impression of me, but I can imagine some people getting really defensive and unpleasant. Depends whether you want a friendly relationship with the person later, and whether tension would cause trouble for your mutual friend.
If you want to call people on it a little more subtly (and I do encourage you to react somehow!), you could try something like, "Oh? raise eyebrows Why? Do you think we look alike?--how funny! without smiling No, not at all, actually insert how you know each other." And then change the subject.
posted by hippugeek at 5:03 PM on April 3, 2008
Since happens repeatedly...well, yeah, it sounds likely to be related to your race. Particularly if you're of a background underrepresented in the area--say you're Pakistani and your friend's Sri Lankan, and there are few Asians of any ethnicity around. I can see someone having sort of a dumb half-conscious inner monologue along the lines of "Huh! What are the chances of there being two Indian people here in Podunkton?! Must be related." Or something.
I did want to say jokingly at the time "You only think that because we're brown, don't you?"
That would make me wildly uncomfortable if I'd just made such a blunder. On the other hand, it should. I think I'd mostly be ashamed of myself and expect you to have a poor impression of me, but I can imagine some people getting really defensive and unpleasant. Depends whether you want a friendly relationship with the person later, and whether tension would cause trouble for your mutual friend.
If you want to call people on it a little more subtly (and I do encourage you to react somehow!), you could try something like, "Oh? raise eyebrows Why? Do you think we look alike?--how funny! without smiling No, not at all, actually insert how you know each other." And then change the subject.
posted by hippugeek at 5:03 PM on April 3, 2008
Good advice here. As long as you aren't mean, go ahead and let the person know that this is a bothersome display of ignorance. It's really a terribly boneheaded thing to say. If it were me, I'd say "Ugh, do you think we're related because we're both dark-skinned? That's upsetting." And, whatever their response, which is hopefully apologetic, but might be more foot-in-mouth, say "It's okay, no worries," and consider your job done. Hopefully, it's a mistake that person will only make once.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:05 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 5:05 PM on April 3, 2008
When I was in high school, people used to always as me if I was related to another Indian girl in my class (since we were in the same class and grade, we would have had to have been twins -- we did not look that alike). I think my 14 year old self got offended and irritated, and I would say, "No are you related to Ms. Thomas?" (Ms. Thomas was an extremely large albino woman who worked in the lunchroom; I know because she once came to my science class to talk about being albino).
If you're not used to seeing people of a certain ethnicity, it can be hard to look past the differences between them and the majority (white people in the US), to see the physical differences they have between each other. For example I've talked to lots of Chinese people who come to the US and have a hard time telling the difference between white people. To us here, things like different hair color make a big difference, but to my Chinese friends other factors like eye shape seemed to matter more. I confess to feeling the same way about Chinese people until I went to college and met a whole bunch and got to really see all of the varied physical characteristics.
The only real way to stop people from saying stuff like that is to expose them to more brown people like you! But, yeah, making that "is it because I'm brown?" comment in a joking manner is what I do now.
posted by bluefly at 5:16 PM on April 3, 2008
If you're not used to seeing people of a certain ethnicity, it can be hard to look past the differences between them and the majority (white people in the US), to see the physical differences they have between each other. For example I've talked to lots of Chinese people who come to the US and have a hard time telling the difference between white people. To us here, things like different hair color make a big difference, but to my Chinese friends other factors like eye shape seemed to matter more. I confess to feeling the same way about Chinese people until I went to college and met a whole bunch and got to really see all of the varied physical characteristics.
The only real way to stop people from saying stuff like that is to expose them to more brown people like you! But, yeah, making that "is it because I'm brown?" comment in a joking manner is what I do now.
posted by bluefly at 5:16 PM on April 3, 2008
I get this kind of thing all the time, whenever I'm hanging out with one of my fabulously good-looking buddies.
But yeh, racism lite, best countered with a joke, like "What are you talking about? I am so much fairer than her!"*
It's part of a deeper thread of ridiculous assumptions that people make, though. Like when Jana Wendt asked Toni Morrison "All your novels seem to be about black people. Are you thinking of writing about white people at any stage?"
Toni: "WTF?!?? You'd never ask a whitey when they were planning to write about blacks!"
Or people of asian background being asked "so, where are you from?"
"Australia. I was born here"
"No, where are you *really* from?"
Annoying & stupid, but not malicious.
* and probably about a foot taller
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:18 PM on April 3, 2008
But yeh, racism lite, best countered with a joke, like "What are you talking about? I am so much fairer than her!"*
It's part of a deeper thread of ridiculous assumptions that people make, though. Like when Jana Wendt asked Toni Morrison "All your novels seem to be about black people. Are you thinking of writing about white people at any stage?"
Toni: "WTF?!?? You'd never ask a whitey when they were planning to write about blacks!"
Or people of asian background being asked "so, where are you from?"
"Australia. I was born here"
"No, where are you *really* from?"
Annoying & stupid, but not malicious.
* and probably about a foot taller
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:18 PM on April 3, 2008
I don't think you're off-base at all. It's a particularly tacky remark to make. I would joke about it if you feel you can pull it off without embarassing them. It's good if you can make them aware of their faux pas in a gentle way.
posted by Koko at 5:38 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by Koko at 5:38 PM on April 3, 2008
I'm brown. It happens to me too. I shrug it off as part of the cost of living in A Multicultural Society. But I'm of the opinion that people shouldn't have to worry about making these little faux pas when interacting with people of a different race.
posted by theiconoclast31 at 5:42 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by theiconoclast31 at 5:42 PM on April 3, 2008
The classic Dear Abby advice for responding to inappropriate questions is, "Why do you ask?" This should have the same effect as "You only think that because we're brown, don't you?" without being as explicitly a challenge.
posted by winston at 5:48 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by winston at 5:48 PM on April 3, 2008
I think you're right- if you live in a mostly white suburb, it's the ignorant assumption that you and your darker skinned pal are relatives. This seems to happen all over the world- when my white sister lived in a small town in Japan, if she was ever seen with another white person, people would ask if they were related. Same thing happened to me when I lived in Nicaragua. So, yeah, it's annoying, and you definitely have the right to feel annoyed by it, but it's definitely not a rare phenomenon.
I think cracking a joke is the best way to deal with it, as long as you can avoid bitterness in your tone. It will make people aware of their blunder and perhaps open their minds a bit (there are all sorts of people in the world! lots of brown ones, too! and they're not all related!) without causing any hostility. Maybe they'll be embarassed, but they'll get over it.
I work in a very international workplace with people of all sorts of nationalities and ethnicities, and we are very open about talking about these sorts of things, in a light-hearted manner. For example, today at lunch, a white guy started telling a story about a movie that took place in "you know, Thailand, India, Signapore, or one of those places" and was immediately interrupted by two of the Indian guys and a guy from China "oh, one of THOSE places, huh? Where the brown people come from?" The point was made, and it the scene was pretty hilarious.
So, yeah, say something. I'm of the mindet that open communication is almost always a good thing- in this case, you'll feel less frustrated, and the other person probably won't make that mistake again.
posted by emd3737 at 5:52 PM on April 3, 2008
I think cracking a joke is the best way to deal with it, as long as you can avoid bitterness in your tone. It will make people aware of their blunder and perhaps open their minds a bit (there are all sorts of people in the world! lots of brown ones, too! and they're not all related!) without causing any hostility. Maybe they'll be embarassed, but they'll get over it.
I work in a very international workplace with people of all sorts of nationalities and ethnicities, and we are very open about talking about these sorts of things, in a light-hearted manner. For example, today at lunch, a white guy started telling a story about a movie that took place in "you know, Thailand, India, Signapore, or one of those places" and was immediately interrupted by two of the Indian guys and a guy from China "oh, one of THOSE places, huh? Where the brown people come from?" The point was made, and it the scene was pretty hilarious.
So, yeah, say something. I'm of the mindet that open communication is almost always a good thing- in this case, you'll feel less frustrated, and the other person probably won't make that mistake again.
posted by emd3737 at 5:52 PM on April 3, 2008
What MasterShake said - people have more trouble seeing the facial differences of people of different races than their own. The 'all look same' phenomenon has a real basis. Now, in a perfect world, people would know this and not mention it, but a lot of well-meaning people actually think you look just like your friend. When my (white) wife taught English in Taiwan she often was asked if she was sisters with a co-worker who looked NOTHING like her. And I think they were being totally honest.
Kids also asked if she was old because her hair was "white" aka blonde.
posted by GuyZero at 6:33 PM on April 3, 2008
Kids also asked if she was old because her hair was "white" aka blonde.
posted by GuyZero at 6:33 PM on April 3, 2008
People are naive and tone-deaf about races that are 'other' to them. If you can lightheartedly correct this sort of thing, you'll be helping people understand that they shouldn't jump to conclusions that are a little bit dumb.
posted by desuetude at 6:39 PM on April 3, 2008
posted by desuetude at 6:39 PM on April 3, 2008
It probably is because you're brown. I'm brown and I get this all the time. As well as, "so where are you from" and the best one I've ever heard, "wow! you don't have an accent..."
I've gotten the last one twice and both times I responded with "no, I decided to get the Honda instead." Seriously though it doesn't bother me, people aren't being racist (and if I think they are I give them the benefit of the doubt) - a lot of times people just don't know what to say so they look for anything to talk about...anything. Smile and play around with them for awhile. It can get fun.
posted by 913 at 7:20 PM on April 3, 2008
I've gotten the last one twice and both times I responded with "no, I decided to get the Honda instead." Seriously though it doesn't bother me, people aren't being racist (and if I think they are I give them the benefit of the doubt) - a lot of times people just don't know what to say so they look for anything to talk about...anything. Smile and play around with them for awhile. It can get fun.
posted by 913 at 7:20 PM on April 3, 2008
*********************************************
*********************************************
Your Next Conversation with Ignorant Boob:
Whitey: Are you two related?
You: Why do you ask?
Whitey: (Insert excuse here).
You: So how do you two know each other/where are you from/what do you do/(insert conversation-changing question Here.)
Voila!
********************************************
********************************************
posted by mynameismandab at 8:28 PM on April 3, 2008
*********************************************
Your Next Conversation with Ignorant Boob:
Whitey: Are you two related?
You: Why do you ask?
Whitey: (Insert excuse here).
You: So how do you two know each other/where are you from/what do you do/(insert conversation-changing question Here.)
Voila!
********************************************
********************************************
posted by mynameismandab at 8:28 PM on April 3, 2008
I think it's helpful to remember that not everyone has the same amount of experience with people of different ethnicities. We obviously can't make a call here regarding intent, and you are the best one to decide how to respond in any given situation.
That being said, they may simply have had minimal exposure to people of other ethnicities, and are demonstrating their naivitee with an honest question. That doesn't make them racist or a bad person, it just makes them inexperienced. That doesn't mean that this is a problem, but perhaps this is less of an example of a racist individual, and more of an example of systemic problems in our segregated society.
posted by jpdoane at 8:36 PM on April 3, 2008
That being said, they may simply have had minimal exposure to people of other ethnicities, and are demonstrating their naivitee with an honest question. That doesn't make them racist or a bad person, it just makes them inexperienced. That doesn't mean that this is a problem, but perhaps this is less of an example of a racist individual, and more of an example of systemic problems in our segregated society.
posted by jpdoane at 8:36 PM on April 3, 2008
I think saying "you only think that because I'm brown" in a joking way is totally the optimal method of handling that situation. You express the fact that you're not actually related while still graciously letting the person off the hook with a laugh.
I will note that I have been strongly desensitized to racial humor, so I might not have the most widely-applicable perspective on the matter.
posted by invitapriore at 8:42 PM on April 3, 2008
I will note that I have been strongly desensitized to racial humor, so I might not have the most widely-applicable perspective on the matter.
posted by invitapriore at 8:42 PM on April 3, 2008
I often get this question here in Japan, when around some other white, or close-to-white, friend/person. :)
posted by lundman at 8:49 PM on April 3, 2008
Along the same lines of what others have posted, it's a documented effect, and the same thing happens to white people when they are in the minority. Some of my minority friends have told me they think all white people look the same, except for hair color. (As a white girl, I have trouble telling blondes apart, even; no one in my family is blonde, none of my teachers were blonde, none of my close friends growing up happened to be blonde; my classes were full of mostly dark-haired white people and minorities.) It's just how the brain tends to work. It's "racist" in a sense of the word -- it's related to your race -- but not in any useful sense of the word; it's not a harmful thing, or even something people can necessarily help.
Growing up around people of many races helps I think, or at least in my experience, because I don't think the minority groups I grew up around all look the same. Lots of white people only grew up around white people, though, and there's nothing they can do about where their parents chose to raise them. They can learn not to ask a silly question, certainly, but it doesn't keep them from thinking you look the same. Someone can be completely un-racist and still have trouble differentiating between unfamiliar people of other races.
In other words, it's annoying to be asked if you're related to someone when it's clear to you that you don't look anything alike, but try to be annoyed by the brain wiring that causes such irritating questions rather than projecting racism onto the people who ask. I disagree with others who call it "ignorance."
As for what you can do... I would think it was funny if you said, "It's because we're both brown, isn't it?"; it wouldn't make me defensive, provided you actually sounded light-hearted about it and not judgmental and passive-aggressive. Some people will be defensive either way because they're self-conscious, though, so just use discretion. If it's helpful, I've noticed younger people tend to be less defensive about those kinds of comments than older people; if someone was alive during Segregation or MLK, they might be more sensitive to implications of racism, no matter how minor. And that's whether they're actually racist -- they don't want to be called out on it, especially by a minority, because they know it's societally unacceptable -- or not -- they would be embarrassed for having given that impression and will plow past your joke to dispel any misconception they fear you might have. Certainly, though, plenty of older people would find the joke funny. I've just found you're taking more of a gamble the older someone is.
If you don't want to have to worry about all that, just laugh and say "What? We look nothing alike!" or, "No, I've only known her since..." The former subtly calls attention to the fact that you don't actually look alike, which can cause some introspection in the person asking. It might also be awkward, though. The latter gives you a good segue into introducing how you actually know the person and moves the conversation away from race. Pick whichever you think is best.
posted by Nattie at 11:49 PM on April 3, 2008
Growing up around people of many races helps I think, or at least in my experience, because I don't think the minority groups I grew up around all look the same. Lots of white people only grew up around white people, though, and there's nothing they can do about where their parents chose to raise them. They can learn not to ask a silly question, certainly, but it doesn't keep them from thinking you look the same. Someone can be completely un-racist and still have trouble differentiating between unfamiliar people of other races.
In other words, it's annoying to be asked if you're related to someone when it's clear to you that you don't look anything alike, but try to be annoyed by the brain wiring that causes such irritating questions rather than projecting racism onto the people who ask. I disagree with others who call it "ignorance."
As for what you can do... I would think it was funny if you said, "It's because we're both brown, isn't it?"; it wouldn't make me defensive, provided you actually sounded light-hearted about it and not judgmental and passive-aggressive. Some people will be defensive either way because they're self-conscious, though, so just use discretion. If it's helpful, I've noticed younger people tend to be less defensive about those kinds of comments than older people; if someone was alive during Segregation or MLK, they might be more sensitive to implications of racism, no matter how minor. And that's whether they're actually racist -- they don't want to be called out on it, especially by a minority, because they know it's societally unacceptable -- or not -- they would be embarrassed for having given that impression and will plow past your joke to dispel any misconception they fear you might have. Certainly, though, plenty of older people would find the joke funny. I've just found you're taking more of a gamble the older someone is.
If you don't want to have to worry about all that, just laugh and say "What? We look nothing alike!" or, "No, I've only known her since..." The former subtly calls attention to the fact that you don't actually look alike, which can cause some introspection in the person asking. It might also be awkward, though. The latter gives you a good segue into introducing how you actually know the person and moves the conversation away from race. Pick whichever you think is best.
posted by Nattie at 11:49 PM on April 3, 2008
Oh, my mistake; I just realized you're in Australia. Disregard the Segregation/MLK comment, then; I'm not sure if anything similar applies to Australia. My Australian friend tells me race is not as sensitive an issue there as it seems to be in the United States, so it might not be such a gamble with older people there.
However, my friend also doesn't entirely grasp how race works in the US, and I don't have anything to go by for how it works there, so neither of us is sure it's really right to say it's less charged there. Might be best to avoid it altogether and err on the side of caution.
posted by Nattie at 11:54 PM on April 3, 2008
However, my friend also doesn't entirely grasp how race works in the US, and I don't have anything to go by for how it works there, so neither of us is sure it's really right to say it's less charged there. Might be best to avoid it altogether and err on the side of caution.
posted by Nattie at 11:54 PM on April 3, 2008
Given that your mutual friend A is this girl B's friend, and the first thing B asks when she meets you is "are you and A related", I think it's reasonable to assume that B is exactly as much of a racist towards you, as she is towards her friend A. So if A and B are good friends, it seems that either A's very tolerant of racists, or B isn't much of a racist. Ask A.
It could also just be B's misconception based on culture rather than a misconception based on physical appearance: the assumption that, as members of an ethnic minority (or minorities), you're more likely to hang out with your relatives. A fine distinction, but it is true for a lot of people, and a lot of white people--especially those who actually are an ethnic or cultural minority even though they don't look it--are among those. I have relatives of my own (Christian, conservative, Queenslander, from the bush, not well-educated) who have a very large overlap between "friends" and "cousins". B might be from that kind of family. You say she's white, and since you didn't say otherwise, I expect she's Australian-born, but if her parents are Bosnian immigrants her cultural referents will differ a lot from, say, a third-generation Australian of Greek heritage. This doesn't make her any less wrong in her assumption, but I think there's more to it than just her view of you; her view of people generally may be relevant.
Alternatively B might just be that unobservant. A lot of people are. Maybe she should wear glasses, and is to vain to wear them, and contacts annoy her. Maybe she's one of those people who just doesn't see anything they haven't put intense effort into looking at. The sort who has to be restrained from stepping in front of buses, who have to be told that "that guy you said you like was hitting on you all night", the sort of person who never realizes, because they're that sort of person, that her friends have to pop a Valium to get into her car, whereas from her point of view the world is just full of rude drivers who blow their horns too much and appear out of nowhere all the time.
Simple lack of observational powers isn't racism; although the unobservant are more likely to be racists, and one of the more pernicious effects of racism (and other prejudices) is that it reduces people's interest in observing others as they really are.
Or there might be some social reason unknown to you that justifies the assumption in retrospect. Maybe A and B are newly friends, A hangs around with a lot of her relatives, you're the fourth person A's introduced B to this week, and the previous three were all A's sisters or cousins. Maybe A said, "come meet my cousin", and before the cousin turned up, they met you. Maybe someone else told B that A and you were cousins. Ask B.
Anyway as others have said, calling her on it in a friendly way, is entirely appropriate. At worst you mildly embarrass her, and if people can't take being mildly embarrassed, they're probably no fun to know anyway. :)
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:21 AM on April 4, 2008
It could also just be B's misconception based on culture rather than a misconception based on physical appearance: the assumption that, as members of an ethnic minority (or minorities), you're more likely to hang out with your relatives. A fine distinction, but it is true for a lot of people, and a lot of white people--especially those who actually are an ethnic or cultural minority even though they don't look it--are among those. I have relatives of my own (Christian, conservative, Queenslander, from the bush, not well-educated) who have a very large overlap between "friends" and "cousins". B might be from that kind of family. You say she's white, and since you didn't say otherwise, I expect she's Australian-born, but if her parents are Bosnian immigrants her cultural referents will differ a lot from, say, a third-generation Australian of Greek heritage. This doesn't make her any less wrong in her assumption, but I think there's more to it than just her view of you; her view of people generally may be relevant.
Alternatively B might just be that unobservant. A lot of people are. Maybe she should wear glasses, and is to vain to wear them, and contacts annoy her. Maybe she's one of those people who just doesn't see anything they haven't put intense effort into looking at. The sort who has to be restrained from stepping in front of buses, who have to be told that "that guy you said you like was hitting on you all night", the sort of person who never realizes, because they're that sort of person, that her friends have to pop a Valium to get into her car, whereas from her point of view the world is just full of rude drivers who blow their horns too much and appear out of nowhere all the time.
Simple lack of observational powers isn't racism; although the unobservant are more likely to be racists, and one of the more pernicious effects of racism (and other prejudices) is that it reduces people's interest in observing others as they really are.
Or there might be some social reason unknown to you that justifies the assumption in retrospect. Maybe A and B are newly friends, A hangs around with a lot of her relatives, you're the fourth person A's introduced B to this week, and the previous three were all A's sisters or cousins. Maybe A said, "come meet my cousin", and before the cousin turned up, they met you. Maybe someone else told B that A and you were cousins. Ask B.
Anyway as others have said, calling her on it in a friendly way, is entirely appropriate. At worst you mildly embarrass her, and if people can't take being mildly embarrassed, they're probably no fun to know anyway. :)
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:21 AM on April 4, 2008
I want to point out that I'm not quite in agreement with the majority here, most of whom appear to enjoy being offended. I don't think you should automatically shame the person asking. And I don't think the immediate jokey response is appropriate, as 23skidoo points out.
I think the genuine "What is similar about us?" rejoinder is most effective, as either you or they will learn something, and doesn't presume you already know the answer. Unless those people go around asking every pair of brown people the same question (which shouldn't happen considering the situation), you may learn something from their answer. Or may point out a feature that is common to your ethnicity, but not to all other brown people -- this is just ignorance that should not cause offense. Or they may just have to point out that you're both brown.
Regarding the "Where are you from" question -- this isn't all that uncommon, especially among whites in the US, and there's no reason to take immdiate offense. It's often a question of historical descendancy rather than nationality.
posted by FuManchu at 12:55 AM on April 4, 2008
I think the genuine "What is similar about us?" rejoinder is most effective, as either you or they will learn something, and doesn't presume you already know the answer. Unless those people go around asking every pair of brown people the same question (which shouldn't happen considering the situation), you may learn something from their answer. Or may point out a feature that is common to your ethnicity, but not to all other brown people -- this is just ignorance that should not cause offense. Or they may just have to point out that you're both brown.
Regarding the "Where are you from" question -- this isn't all that uncommon, especially among whites in the US, and there's no reason to take immdiate offense. It's often a question of historical descendancy rather than nationality.
posted by FuManchu at 12:55 AM on April 4, 2008
Nattie Oh, my mistake; I just realized you're in Australia. Disregard the Segregation/MLK comment, then; I'm not sure if anything similar applies to Australia. My Australian friend tells me race is not as sensitive an issue there as it seems to be in the United States, so it might not be such a gamble with older people there.
It's varied and complex. The segregation issue very much does apply, to Australian Aboriginals; we (whites) didn't enslave them as such (although the distinction only came down to the absence of ownership, in some cases), and we didn't bring them here from elsewhere, but there are many similarities in their treatment. Australia had a specific whites-only immigration policy for most of the 20th Century.
The racial/ethnic character of Australia has changed drastically over the last sixty years, and even in my lifetime there have been changes. As is to be expected, many of the influxes of immigration have been during times of war, civil unrest, and extremely poor economic conditions: the Irish in the 1920's (much of my own ancestry); the Polish and Germans (the rest of my own ancestry) after WWI, and after WWII, Vietnamese in the 1970's to 1980's, Indians from the 1960's to the present, Arabs in the 1990's, etc.
(I saw a stand-up comedian the other night, a Vietnamese Australian, somewhere between 20 and 30 years old. He said: "When I was a boy growing up, my life was very hard. The other children in my class made fun of me all the time for the funny way I talked, how I looked, the clothes I wore. I was teased at school constantly and I didn't have any friends. So one day my parents decided they had to do something about it. They told me: pack up, we're moving to Australia.")
Are we racists, we Australians? It's a discussion that's beyond the scope of this, and I don't want to derail liquorice's question. Her opinion on the subject would be more informed than mine, anyway. I suppose the more thoughtful of us try not to be, and our national character includes a dislike of unfairness, whatever its kind. But it's hard to say.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 1:35 AM on April 4, 2008
It's varied and complex. The segregation issue very much does apply, to Australian Aboriginals; we (whites) didn't enslave them as such (although the distinction only came down to the absence of ownership, in some cases), and we didn't bring them here from elsewhere, but there are many similarities in their treatment. Australia had a specific whites-only immigration policy for most of the 20th Century.
The racial/ethnic character of Australia has changed drastically over the last sixty years, and even in my lifetime there have been changes. As is to be expected, many of the influxes of immigration have been during times of war, civil unrest, and extremely poor economic conditions: the Irish in the 1920's (much of my own ancestry); the Polish and Germans (the rest of my own ancestry) after WWI, and after WWII, Vietnamese in the 1970's to 1980's, Indians from the 1960's to the present, Arabs in the 1990's, etc.
(I saw a stand-up comedian the other night, a Vietnamese Australian, somewhere between 20 and 30 years old. He said: "When I was a boy growing up, my life was very hard. The other children in my class made fun of me all the time for the funny way I talked, how I looked, the clothes I wore. I was teased at school constantly and I didn't have any friends. So one day my parents decided they had to do something about it. They told me: pack up, we're moving to Australia.")
Are we racists, we Australians? It's a discussion that's beyond the scope of this, and I don't want to derail liquorice's question. Her opinion on the subject would be more informed than mine, anyway. I suppose the more thoughtful of us try not to be, and our national character includes a dislike of unfairness, whatever its kind. But it's hard to say.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 1:35 AM on April 4, 2008
aeschenkarnos: on howard's recent tour of the US, yanking his chain in front of neocon septic think tanks, he proclaimed that his greatest legacy after eleven years in power was that he had stopped this endless hand-wringing over our cultural identity.
*sings*
We are one, but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We share a dream and sing with one voice:
I am, you are, we are Australian.*
*not including greeks, lebboes & eyeties. or balts, or other reffoes from the eastern bloc. vietnamese & chinese, too. nor subcontinentals, nor migrants from europe or america. only blackfellas & convicts here, cobba.
Getting back to the question, "Do I need to dial down my sensitivity levels when it comes to issues of race?", idunno; what's more interesting to me at the moment is "what's the story behind your username?"
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:45 AM on April 4, 2008
*sings*
We are one, but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We share a dream and sing with one voice:
I am, you are, we are Australian.*
*not including greeks, lebboes & eyeties. or balts, or other reffoes from the eastern bloc. vietnamese & chinese, too. nor subcontinentals, nor migrants from europe or america. only blackfellas & convicts here, cobba.
Getting back to the question, "Do I need to dial down my sensitivity levels when it comes to issues of race?", idunno; what's more interesting to me at the moment is "what's the story behind your username?"
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:45 AM on April 4, 2008
that comes with a winky tongue-pointing out
(so much more inefficient, this text-based winking)
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:46 AM on April 4, 2008
(so much more inefficient, this text-based winking)
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:46 AM on April 4, 2008
Late to the party, but I lived in an area of Texas with a large Hispanic population, and I'm white myself. Whenever I'd go out on a date with my girlfriend (also white), we'd always get the "Oh, is that your sister?" comments.
So yes, it is a sort of racism-lite, but more a laziness of people. Never offended me, and always worth the fun of kissing my girlfriend at the time and watching everyone shift uncomfortably.
posted by SNWidget at 6:59 AM on April 4, 2008
So yes, it is a sort of racism-lite, but more a laziness of people. Never offended me, and always worth the fun of kissing my girlfriend at the time and watching everyone shift uncomfortably.
posted by SNWidget at 6:59 AM on April 4, 2008
If they're making a friendly observation, there's not much point in embarrassing them. And it's not just racial things that make people do this kind of foot in mouth crap.
Almost inevitably, if my mother and my aunt and I appear in a room of strangers, one of them will ask if we're three generations of family, or say something about my grandmother. Needless to say, this rather chaps the ass of my aunt, who is only a few years older than my mother, but looks (and acts) much, much older. If it's just my mother and me, it's usually comments about us being sisters, though I suspect that's mostly a deliberate attempt to flatter my mother than a genuine belief that we're sisters. I could be wrong about that, though.
People like to guess at relationships between people and they like to let you know that they've seen it, though god knows why. Unless they seem to be deliberately being rude about it, I try to just politely set them straight. They're usually humiliated enough at having just called my aunt 'old' without any added humiliation from me.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:11 AM on April 4, 2008
Almost inevitably, if my mother and my aunt and I appear in a room of strangers, one of them will ask if we're three generations of family, or say something about my grandmother. Needless to say, this rather chaps the ass of my aunt, who is only a few years older than my mother, but looks (and acts) much, much older. If it's just my mother and me, it's usually comments about us being sisters, though I suspect that's mostly a deliberate attempt to flatter my mother than a genuine belief that we're sisters. I could be wrong about that, though.
People like to guess at relationships between people and they like to let you know that they've seen it, though god knows why. Unless they seem to be deliberately being rude about it, I try to just politely set them straight. They're usually humiliated enough at having just called my aunt 'old' without any added humiliation from me.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:11 AM on April 4, 2008
This happens to me more frequently than I can remember. A friend who is of similar racial stock but different national origin is always being recognized as me or the reverse. At first it was around friends, and now it has crept into work as well. From comments about him being my brother to mistaken identities, it can make for some funny situations, but it's often just irritating. The usual way I defuse the situation is by saying stuff like "all people who are (insert person's race here) look the same to me too" or much of what's written above.
posted by palionex at 11:00 AM on April 4, 2008
posted by palionex at 11:00 AM on April 4, 2008
I used to have two cats. One was male, pink (-ginger) in big circular patterns. The other was female, yellow (-ginger) in a small striped pattern.
People used to think it was the same cat, ask me if they were related - all sorts of stupid shit.
One was pink the other was yellow!
Then one day I was at this chicks house and she had two cats. They were both a really rich and stunning shade of red (-ginger). So I ask "Oh, are they related!?" (because I am a dick) and she looks at me like I'm a dick and says No. (nuf said). You'd think I would've known better...
So yeah, never forget just how many dumb asses there are out there (lest you become one as well)...
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 2:37 PM on April 4, 2008
People used to think it was the same cat, ask me if they were related - all sorts of stupid shit.
One was pink the other was yellow!
Then one day I was at this chicks house and she had two cats. They were both a really rich and stunning shade of red (-ginger). So I ask "Oh, are they related!?" (because I am a dick) and she looks at me like I'm a dick and says No. (nuf said). You'd think I would've known better...
So yeah, never forget just how many dumb asses there are out there (lest you become one as well)...
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 2:37 PM on April 4, 2008
This could just be social awkwardness. It's no different than saying you're from Australia and the person you've just met saying "oh really? Do you know my friend Bruce? He's from Australia too!" Or saying you like pickles and them saying "I like pickles too-- we have so much in common!" You're a stranger and they're trying to connect with you based on the little they know about you.
Racism is about keeping things separate --- the kind of comment you refer to, in an otherwise pleasant social setting, is probably the opposite --- trying to connect.
posted by headnsouth at 6:08 AM on April 5, 2008
Racism is about keeping things separate --- the kind of comment you refer to, in an otherwise pleasant social setting, is probably the opposite --- trying to connect.
posted by headnsouth at 6:08 AM on April 5, 2008
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If you can really say this jokingly, this is what I would do.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:44 PM on April 3, 2008