Mid-century fakes?
March 1, 2008 6:03 AM
Help me verify the authenticity of these chairs?
I bought what were advertised as four Knoll Bertoia side chairs off of ebay a while back. My problem is that the seats are bolted to the legs, and while visiting Design Within Reach, I noticed that the current Bertoias seats are welded to the legs. So I'm asking if anyone here knows if Knoll used to bolt the tops to the bottoms of these chairs, or do I just have a couple of decent knock offs?
Photos here.
Also, the vinyl lacquer finish is coming off some of the ends of the wires, does anyone know how I could restore the finish? Could I strip and then dip them?
I bought what were advertised as four Knoll Bertoia side chairs off of ebay a while back. My problem is that the seats are bolted to the legs, and while visiting Design Within Reach, I noticed that the current Bertoias seats are welded to the legs. So I'm asking if anyone here knows if Knoll used to bolt the tops to the bottoms of these chairs, or do I just have a couple of decent knock offs?
Photos here.
Also, the vinyl lacquer finish is coming off some of the ends of the wires, does anyone know how I could restore the finish? Could I strip and then dip them?
I noticed the differences in the current models compared to mine, but Knoll has a history of revising the originals over time. The Eames management chair used to be 4 casters, now it's 5, the molded fiberglass chairs are now plastic, etc... I'm really curious if these are the originals, and the models have since been changed, or if these are bona fide fakes.
Looking at mid-century resellers online resulted in this: http://www.markparrish.co.uk/seatingpage.htm(scroll a little more than halfway down) which looks promising.
posted by splatta at 6:42 AM on March 1, 2008
Looking at mid-century resellers online resulted in this: http://www.markparrish.co.uk/seatingpage.htm(scroll a little more than halfway down) which looks promising.
posted by splatta at 6:42 AM on March 1, 2008
OK, I withdraw my reservations, the MarkParrish pic looks like the same chair. The wire grid inside the outside wire is 12 x 20 in both models.
I suppose the vinyl wear on yours is a potential age indicator as well.
As with most antique refinishing questions I would not strip and dip, but find some vinyl restoration material to just touch up the worn spots. An auto parts store should have this.
posted by beagle at 7:19 AM on March 1, 2008
I suppose the vinyl wear on yours is a potential age indicator as well.
As with most antique refinishing questions I would not strip and dip, but find some vinyl restoration material to just touch up the worn spots. An auto parts store should have this.
posted by beagle at 7:19 AM on March 1, 2008
I have what I was told was a vintage Bertoia Diamond chair. I just checked and the legs are bolted to the body of the chair - it looks similar to yours.
But the chair could be a knockoff too - I *cough* found it on the side of the road. I'd be interested to hear if there is a way to restore the finish as mine could use some help.
posted by suki at 7:28 AM on March 1, 2008
But the chair could be a knockoff too - I *cough* found it on the side of the road. I'd be interested to hear if there is a way to restore the finish as mine could use some help.
posted by suki at 7:28 AM on March 1, 2008
You'll never find out if they're legit or not. With Knoll, unless it's got a sticker/tag, don't pay more than a knock-off price unless you never plan to resell. Those chairs have just been copied far too many times.
A lot of iconic chairs are very hard to "collect", if that's your plan. Last year I sold a pair of Knoll Kuzuhide Takahama Suzanne Lounge Chairs (they're behind the Ant chairs). Though they were a perfect match, only one had the sticker. I sold them to the same person but they argued that without the sticker they shouldn't pay full price for the second chair. Begrudgingly, I had to agree.
This is one of the reasons that so many legit manufacturers would paint their logo onto the wood or carve it into the metal. With wire-frame stuff (and a lot of Knoll stuff) it's pretty much impossible to do that and the forging companies like that. For instance, Jacobsen's dining chairs for Fritz Hansen have been knocked off a gazillion times, but only the originals have the FH painted on the wood and stamped into the metal, like this. This is because knock-off companies only have to change a design slightly (and imperceptibly to the eye) to avoid being sued, but they can't use the manufacturer's logo without feeling the wrath of a good lawyer.
I personally find Bertoia chairs uncomfortable and avoid them for that reason but even if they were comfortable, I'd never pay more than knock off prices (without a tag) as you can't prove provenance. I always tell people that if you're going to buy furniture you hope will go up in value, then either make sure it's got the stamp or buy something that suits your eye but was not so iconic and therefore not copied. My favorite chair that I own is Arne Vodder for FH (that's my actual chair in the photo). It's super comfortable, built to last, and is unmarked. However, the chair wasn't a hit at the time and has never properly been copied. It's listed in a few catalogues from the time which is how it can be id'd. I paid $1200 for it and was recently offered $2600, but it's too comfortable to part with. :)
posted by dobbs at 7:52 AM on March 1, 2008
A lot of iconic chairs are very hard to "collect", if that's your plan. Last year I sold a pair of Knoll Kuzuhide Takahama Suzanne Lounge Chairs (they're behind the Ant chairs). Though they were a perfect match, only one had the sticker. I sold them to the same person but they argued that without the sticker they shouldn't pay full price for the second chair. Begrudgingly, I had to agree.
This is one of the reasons that so many legit manufacturers would paint their logo onto the wood or carve it into the metal. With wire-frame stuff (and a lot of Knoll stuff) it's pretty much impossible to do that and the forging companies like that. For instance, Jacobsen's dining chairs for Fritz Hansen have been knocked off a gazillion times, but only the originals have the FH painted on the wood and stamped into the metal, like this. This is because knock-off companies only have to change a design slightly (and imperceptibly to the eye) to avoid being sued, but they can't use the manufacturer's logo without feeling the wrath of a good lawyer.
I personally find Bertoia chairs uncomfortable and avoid them for that reason but even if they were comfortable, I'd never pay more than knock off prices (without a tag) as you can't prove provenance. I always tell people that if you're going to buy furniture you hope will go up in value, then either make sure it's got the stamp or buy something that suits your eye but was not so iconic and therefore not copied. My favorite chair that I own is Arne Vodder for FH (that's my actual chair in the photo). It's super comfortable, built to last, and is unmarked. However, the chair wasn't a hit at the time and has never properly been copied. It's listed in a few catalogues from the time which is how it can be id'd. I paid $1200 for it and was recently offered $2600, but it's too comfortable to part with. :)
posted by dobbs at 7:52 AM on March 1, 2008
I have a bertoia diamond chair that came with the original cushion/cover and a knoll sticker and the legs are bolted. If you don't have the stickers, you'll never know for sure. But congrats and I hope you enjoy them!
posted by Chris4d at 3:28 PM on March 3, 2008
posted by Chris4d at 3:28 PM on March 3, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by beagle at 6:24 AM on March 1, 2008