Dating for Dummies, Chapter 73: Getting Physical
February 16, 2008 7:08 PM Subscribe
Dating for Dummies, Chapter 73: Getting Physical.
Through a series of life choices and unfortunate circumstances, I'm an adult on the young end of my thirties who has had very little dating experience and almost no experience with the physical aspects of affection.
But I've begun dating a woman. It is in the very early stages, and we're not dating exclusively yet. Because I've had so little physical experience, were I to rely solely on what "feels right," I'd be moving far too quickly, and this means I can't rely solely on my physical instincts right now.
When do people, on the average, begin doing various physical things in their relationship? On what date do people first kiss? On what date do people first French-kiss? On what date do people make out on the couch? On what date do people actually have sex?
I know that the answers to these questions will vary widely, but I imagine there are rough averages one can eke out.
Why am I asking? Aside from just wanting to know, I don't want to make her feel as if there's no chemistry because I'm failing to make physical gestures at the usual points in a relationship at which people do such things, and I think because of my desire (and my fear of the unknown), I'm more likely to be overly restraining myself, instead of going too fast.
Also, I'm highly embarrassed to even be asking these next two questions, but:
(a) I've not even really kissed much. I think I'll be kissing her goodnight on our upcoming date. I'd like not to resemble a dead fish. Are there Mefi questions, webpages, YouTube videos, or anything on which I can get a quick primer?
(b) A sixth-season episode of Sex and the City featured Kim Cattrall's character balking when her beau tried to hold her hand, her objection being that it was a more intimate, serious gesture than kissing and such. Was this just a dumb Sex and the City plot, or does such a statement actually reflect modern sensibilities? I would have thought holding hands to be a small, harmless thing.
Through a series of life choices and unfortunate circumstances, I'm an adult on the young end of my thirties who has had very little dating experience and almost no experience with the physical aspects of affection.
But I've begun dating a woman. It is in the very early stages, and we're not dating exclusively yet. Because I've had so little physical experience, were I to rely solely on what "feels right," I'd be moving far too quickly, and this means I can't rely solely on my physical instincts right now.
When do people, on the average, begin doing various physical things in their relationship? On what date do people first kiss? On what date do people first French-kiss? On what date do people make out on the couch? On what date do people actually have sex?
I know that the answers to these questions will vary widely, but I imagine there are rough averages one can eke out.
Why am I asking? Aside from just wanting to know, I don't want to make her feel as if there's no chemistry because I'm failing to make physical gestures at the usual points in a relationship at which people do such things, and I think because of my desire (and my fear of the unknown), I'm more likely to be overly restraining myself, instead of going too fast.
Also, I'm highly embarrassed to even be asking these next two questions, but:
(a) I've not even really kissed much. I think I'll be kissing her goodnight on our upcoming date. I'd like not to resemble a dead fish. Are there Mefi questions, webpages, YouTube videos, or anything on which I can get a quick primer?
(b) A sixth-season episode of Sex and the City featured Kim Cattrall's character balking when her beau tried to hold her hand, her objection being that it was a more intimate, serious gesture than kissing and such. Was this just a dumb Sex and the City plot, or does such a statement actually reflect modern sensibilities? I would have thought holding hands to be a small, harmless thing.
If you aren't seriously trying to get into her pants by the end of the second date - you are a stronger man than I.
posted by bigmusic at 7:32 PM on February 16, 2008
posted by bigmusic at 7:32 PM on February 16, 2008
I have to tell ya, whenever a guy reached out to hold my hand, I just absolutely swooned. It was always the cutest, sweetest thing. And yes, even now, after being married for seven years, we still hold hands. :)
I seriously doubt you'd resemble a dead fish. Especially if you're giving this much thought to the girl and her feelings. Just go in, tilt your head, close your eyes and kiss her! Really, it's not as complicated as you think. And if you bonk heads, well, it will give you something to laugh about and will probably break up any tension there may be. Plenty of more experienced people have bonked heads, accidently bitten lips, etc. and have lived to tell the tale.
Have you thought about, well, just being honest with her? She'd probably find it more endearing than you realise. And if she doesn't. Well, then, she's not the right girl. I'd be telling you the same thing if you were my friend IRL or if you were my Brother.
Good luck, have fun and take a deep breath. Remember. It's supposed to be a good time, not stressful. :)
posted by dancinglamb at 7:34 PM on February 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
I seriously doubt you'd resemble a dead fish. Especially if you're giving this much thought to the girl and her feelings. Just go in, tilt your head, close your eyes and kiss her! Really, it's not as complicated as you think. And if you bonk heads, well, it will give you something to laugh about and will probably break up any tension there may be. Plenty of more experienced people have bonked heads, accidently bitten lips, etc. and have lived to tell the tale.
Have you thought about, well, just being honest with her? She'd probably find it more endearing than you realise. And if she doesn't. Well, then, she's not the right girl. I'd be telling you the same thing if you were my friend IRL or if you were my Brother.
Good luck, have fun and take a deep breath. Remember. It's supposed to be a good time, not stressful. :)
posted by dancinglamb at 7:34 PM on February 16, 2008 [3 favorites]
When do people, on the average, begin doing various physical things in their relationship? On what date do people first kiss? On what date do people first French-kiss? On what date do people make out on the couch? On what date do people actually have sex?
There are no rules. At all. They entirely depend on the person you are with, and how well you get on. That's the bad news. I've never been on a (successful/compatible) date where a kiss at the end of it would have been inappropriate (tongues and all). There's been some (unsuccessful/incompatible) where it hasn't felt right, but it sounds like you are beyond that stage if you are 'dating'. Beyond that, no rules exist - although social pressure suggests otherwise (or, more likely, wants to suggest there should be), it's actually crap.
But if you lack the ability (which only comes with experience) of being able to tell what exactly is appropriate (and/or wanted), you either have to rely on trial and error (like the rest of us did!) or, being as you have the advantage of maturity of years in you and your potential partner, rely on honesty and being upfront about not being sure. Trying to follow rules is unlikely to help, as it completely depends on the people involved.
posted by Brockles at 7:43 PM on February 16, 2008
There are no rules. At all. They entirely depend on the person you are with, and how well you get on. That's the bad news. I've never been on a (successful/compatible) date where a kiss at the end of it would have been inappropriate (tongues and all). There's been some (unsuccessful/incompatible) where it hasn't felt right, but it sounds like you are beyond that stage if you are 'dating'. Beyond that, no rules exist - although social pressure suggests otherwise (or, more likely, wants to suggest there should be), it's actually crap.
But if you lack the ability (which only comes with experience) of being able to tell what exactly is appropriate (and/or wanted), you either have to rely on trial and error (like the rest of us did!) or, being as you have the advantage of maturity of years in you and your potential partner, rely on honesty and being upfront about not being sure. Trying to follow rules is unlikely to help, as it completely depends on the people involved.
posted by Brockles at 7:43 PM on February 16, 2008
Uh, YMMV on the hand holding bit. A guy I was seeing held my hand on the streetcar once and I nearly vomited. Ok, not literally, but let's just say that later I told him I didn't like that and not to do it because it was wayy too much of a "couple" thing to do, and I didn't really think we were in that space. If you're not certain if something's cool, just ask - "Would you mind if I hold your hand?" "Can I kiss you?" "Is it ok if I give you a hug?" If she's not down with it she'll flat out say no or, at the very least she will bristle or otherwise hesitate, giving you a visual clue that you should maybe hold off. People have very different views of their physical space, so just try to respect that and you'll be all good. In general Sex in the City is not the best reference material though.
For the kissing question, again, it's totally a personal preference. I'd say err on the side of caution and see how she responds. Err towards light/soft over hard/rough, dry over wet and don't lead with your tongue. Follow her lead. If she doesn't do anything, but passively accepts the kiss, then stop kissing her and look her in the eyes and wait for her to kiss you. If she doesn't, she either doesn't want another kiss or she's too shy to go for it. Use your best judgment.
As for the sex stuff, there is a book called the Guide to Getting it On which is pretty classic and goes over everything, but overall when you first meet someone the best bet is to take it slow. Try to relax as much as you can, but if you can't just remember that she will probably be trying to figure out what works for you, just as you will be figuring out what works for her. Try to communicate what you like and ask her what she likes.
posted by SassHat at 7:43 PM on February 16, 2008
For the kissing question, again, it's totally a personal preference. I'd say err on the side of caution and see how she responds. Err towards light/soft over hard/rough, dry over wet and don't lead with your tongue. Follow her lead. If she doesn't do anything, but passively accepts the kiss, then stop kissing her and look her in the eyes and wait for her to kiss you. If she doesn't, she either doesn't want another kiss or she's too shy to go for it. Use your best judgment.
As for the sex stuff, there is a book called the Guide to Getting it On which is pretty classic and goes over everything, but overall when you first meet someone the best bet is to take it slow. Try to relax as much as you can, but if you can't just remember that she will probably be trying to figure out what works for you, just as you will be figuring out what works for her. Try to communicate what you like and ask her what she likes.
posted by SassHat at 7:43 PM on February 16, 2008
+1 dancinglamb
ya just gotta get that out of the way. Half way through walking to the movie, tell her how nervous you are, ask if you can just see what it's going to be like. Say it in a nervous, not horny way (I thin you'll be okay on that at this point) and see what happens. Once you get it out of the way- you'll be a stallion...
think 'stallion'!
posted by flowerofhighrank at 7:45 PM on February 16, 2008
ya just gotta get that out of the way. Half way through walking to the movie, tell her how nervous you are, ask if you can just see what it's going to be like. Say it in a nervous, not horny way (I thin you'll be okay on that at this point) and see what happens. Once you get it out of the way- you'll be a stallion...
think 'stallion'!
posted by flowerofhighrank at 7:45 PM on February 16, 2008
First thing, stop worrying about what's "normal". No one is normal. Every relationship happens at different speeds, all dependent on the intensity of emotion, everyone's past experience, and how in sync you guys are.
Second thing, everyone is afraid they're going too fast or too slow. If those with all the experience in the world.
Finally, just let her know you haven't dated much in the past. If she likes you, its not going to freak her out. Remember, she likes you for you, not some normal version of you yer trying to fake. Women are quick to pick up on this stuff, she'll lead, and you can relax a bit.
Just chill. Enjoy it.
posted by miasma at 7:49 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
Second thing, everyone is afraid they're going too fast or too slow. If those with all the experience in the world.
Finally, just let her know you haven't dated much in the past. If she likes you, its not going to freak her out. Remember, she likes you for you, not some normal version of you yer trying to fake. Women are quick to pick up on this stuff, she'll lead, and you can relax a bit.
Just chill. Enjoy it.
posted by miasma at 7:49 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I don't think averages are going to be very useful here, because I think having some idea of what's "normal" will distract you from paying attention to what you and she actually want, which almost certainly isn't "normal." The average family has 2.4 kids and all that.
Some women want to put off sex until the rest of the relationship seems to have real promise (or even until marriage). Other women prefer to fuck before the first date.
Some women think holding hands is sweet. Other women will never want to hold hands.
The point is, you just have to try when it feels right and be willing to be shot down, and if you are shot down, you need to be graceful about it. As has already been mentioned, talking generally won't hurt.
Overly restraining yourself or following some schedule will just make it seem like you're not interested or possibly just weird, so don't do that.
Don't assume that your sex drive is greater than hers, either. I have several female friends who are constantly agonizing to me about when exactly they can get in bed with some new guy they're seeing without seeming too cheap.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 7:57 PM on February 16, 2008
Some women want to put off sex until the rest of the relationship seems to have real promise (or even until marriage). Other women prefer to fuck before the first date.
Some women think holding hands is sweet. Other women will never want to hold hands.
The point is, you just have to try when it feels right and be willing to be shot down, and if you are shot down, you need to be graceful about it. As has already been mentioned, talking generally won't hurt.
Overly restraining yourself or following some schedule will just make it seem like you're not interested or possibly just weird, so don't do that.
Don't assume that your sex drive is greater than hers, either. I have several female friends who are constantly agonizing to me about when exactly they can get in bed with some new guy they're seeing without seeming too cheap.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 7:57 PM on February 16, 2008
A few things:
First, echoing what other people said, there's no such thing as "normal". You have to do what works for you, and what works for her - and the best way to find out what that is, is just to go for it. If she's been out on a couple of dates with you already, then she likes you. She'll try and make things as easy on you as she knows how. So go for it.
Regarding the kissing thing: they're on the corny side, but as primers, you might find some of the VideoJug "tutorials" useful:
How To Kiss Someone Passionately
How To Kiss For The First Time
... etc. There's a ton of them, on all sorts of myriad subjects that you'd run into as someone in a dating relationship. You might find them useful.
posted by captainawesome at 8:10 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
First, echoing what other people said, there's no such thing as "normal". You have to do what works for you, and what works for her - and the best way to find out what that is, is just to go for it. If she's been out on a couple of dates with you already, then she likes you. She'll try and make things as easy on you as she knows how. So go for it.
Regarding the kissing thing: they're on the corny side, but as primers, you might find some of the VideoJug "tutorials" useful:
How To Kiss Someone Passionately
How To Kiss For The First Time
... etc. There's a ton of them, on all sorts of myriad subjects that you'd run into as someone in a dating relationship. You might find them useful.
posted by captainawesome at 8:10 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
From a related question a few weeks ago: http://www.datinggroundwork.com
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:14 PM on February 16, 2008
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:14 PM on February 16, 2008
I disagree with TPS. I think holding hands is very intimate and can't say that I've ever done it (or would ever do it) with someone I hadn't already been intimate with. In my experience, it is usually the woman who initiates hand-holding for the first time.
posted by dobbs at 8:33 PM on February 16, 2008
posted by dobbs at 8:33 PM on February 16, 2008
I was referring specifically to the episode in question, where the character of Samantha had been sleeping with her beau for... weeks, months (and of course, this being Sex and the City, we saw plenty of the dirty details). Taken out of that context, I think SassHat makes a fine point about being careful to respect your date's personal preferences.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:54 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:54 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you've "begun dating" I would imagine you've been on more than one date. At this point, anything from a kiss to sex is appropriate if both parties are comfortable.
The best advice in my opinion:
1. Stay wary of her body language. Given that you're nervous, you'll probably be doing that already.
2. That being said, don't be afraid to initiate physical contact. The girl has gone on more than one date with you, she's at least considered physical contact with you. Nobody goes out more than once with someone they find repulsive.
Also, don't take sex advice from TV.
posted by ®@ at 8:56 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
The best advice in my opinion:
1. Stay wary of her body language. Given that you're nervous, you'll probably be doing that already.
2. That being said, don't be afraid to initiate physical contact. The girl has gone on more than one date with you, she's at least considered physical contact with you. Nobody goes out more than once with someone they find repulsive.
Also, don't take sex advice from TV.
posted by ®@ at 8:56 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
I'll agree with other people that being open with her about your experience level (sometime within the first few dates) would be a positive rather than a negative from her perspective. It's not just for you but for her too.
My first time with a virgin was special and VERY hot. I'm really grateful that he let me know beforehand. It's not exactly often in life that one gets to introduce someone else to sex. (And if she's around your age, she probably isn't expecting she'll ever get to do that again!)
I think she would be really excited about it. And I think you would probably be excited to have it be a 'real' and open moment where you don't have to waste your energy on pretending about anything and you can totally relax.
posted by lorimer at 9:04 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
My first time with a virgin was special and VERY hot. I'm really grateful that he let me know beforehand. It's not exactly often in life that one gets to introduce someone else to sex. (And if she's around your age, she probably isn't expecting she'll ever get to do that again!)
I think she would be really excited about it. And I think you would probably be excited to have it be a 'real' and open moment where you don't have to waste your energy on pretending about anything and you can totally relax.
posted by lorimer at 9:04 PM on February 16, 2008 [1 favorite]
To start, I'm your age, anon, and I'm assuming that the girl is our age as well or therebouts. Firstly -- ignore everything you've read here so far. No, really. They're all wrong, even the ones who agree with me. It's weird, isn't it? Weird but true. Secondly -- seriously, whether or not you hold hands with her isn't really the issue you're concerned about, now is it? Again -- don't listen to anyone on this, and certainly don't take Sex and the City as your source on whether or not to do something. Thirdly, get in her pants. No, really. If you're dating, and you're both into each other, now's the time to make out with her. Really. Like, right now. As you're reading this. You should shut down the computer and go over to her house and make out with her.
Why are you still reading this? Do it. Do it now.
At a certain age, people just start screwing after one or two dates, if that. It becomes no big deal. That doesn't mean we'll sleep with just anyone, necessarily -- it just means that when I was in college, I would wait a few weeks or a month before sleeping with a woman. By the time I met my wife, I was more than comfortable sleeping with a woman on the first or second date. Of course there's no hard and fast rule, but as people get older (or, at least, absolutely everyone I know, which is a rather significant population of urban frequent daters), they get more slutty. OK, not so much slutty as less hung up about sex and less worried about what other people think. See, women like sex just as much as men do. And she's probably waiting around for some action. Action is good. Very very good.
There are some caveats here -- I'm speaking as someone who has only lived in big cities, so I can only vouch for thirtysomethings from urban areas. I am what might be dismissively referred to as a hipster, so there's that to take into consideration as well.
Do what you're comfortable with, express to her that you're just starting out in the area of gettin' your swerve on, and then practice, practice, practice. Don't pay any attention to 'rules' of when you're supposed to do certain things -- those rules are only for when you're 15. Good luck. You won't need it, though. You'll be fine.
posted by incessant at 9:20 PM on February 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
Why are you still reading this? Do it. Do it now.
At a certain age, people just start screwing after one or two dates, if that. It becomes no big deal. That doesn't mean we'll sleep with just anyone, necessarily -- it just means that when I was in college, I would wait a few weeks or a month before sleeping with a woman. By the time I met my wife, I was more than comfortable sleeping with a woman on the first or second date. Of course there's no hard and fast rule, but as people get older (or, at least, absolutely everyone I know, which is a rather significant population of urban frequent daters), they get more slutty. OK, not so much slutty as less hung up about sex and less worried about what other people think. See, women like sex just as much as men do. And she's probably waiting around for some action. Action is good. Very very good.
There are some caveats here -- I'm speaking as someone who has only lived in big cities, so I can only vouch for thirtysomethings from urban areas. I am what might be dismissively referred to as a hipster, so there's that to take into consideration as well.
Do what you're comfortable with, express to her that you're just starting out in the area of gettin' your swerve on, and then practice, practice, practice. Don't pay any attention to 'rules' of when you're supposed to do certain things -- those rules are only for when you're 15. Good luck. You won't need it, though. You'll be fine.
posted by incessant at 9:20 PM on February 16, 2008 [2 favorites]
There's a lot of good advice here. The only thing I'm tempted to add is that the advice for how to kiss should be the direct opposite of advice when to kiss.
When to? Whenever you feel it's right, go for it, give it a chance, nothing ventured nothing gained and all that.
How to? Definitely don't just go all in and hope for the best. She doesn't want a wet lump of muscle sitting halfway down her throat. Start with a little bit of tongue, and wait for her to respond (in some way, verbal or non verbal) before you go further.
posted by twirlypen at 10:14 PM on February 16, 2008
When to? Whenever you feel it's right, go for it, give it a chance, nothing ventured nothing gained and all that.
How to? Definitely don't just go all in and hope for the best. She doesn't want a wet lump of muscle sitting halfway down her throat. Start with a little bit of tongue, and wait for her to respond (in some way, verbal or non verbal) before you go further.
posted by twirlypen at 10:14 PM on February 16, 2008
I dated a lot of inexperienced geek guys when I was younger, so I think I have an idea of where they tend to go wrong and how they could improve.
I would expect a guy to kiss me on the mouth no later than the third date and if he didn't I would wonder what was wrong with him. Kissing earlier is OK if there is strong physical chemistry and we're really comfortable with each other, but sometimes it takes a couple of dates to achieve the right comfort level and that's OK too. Kissing on the cheek or hand on earlier dates is a nice way to be less intimate than mouth-kissing but still show a romantic interest.
Other things you can do prior to kissing to show romantic interest and increase her comfort level with you touching her is touch her on her shoulder, elbow, or hand. Then progress to touching her on the small of her back (small of her back! not her butt, yet!!!), hair, cheek, holding her hand, or putting your arm around her shoulders. These touches are all good lead-ups to kissing, and you can monitor her reactions to see how much she likes you touching her. (If she stiffens up, pulls away, removes your hand, etc. then you should back off. If she does this but then accepts another date invitation then she was probably just uncomfortable with the speed or circumstances of your advances but is still attracted to you, if she doesn't accept another date invitation then she is not attracted and you should move on.)
If you don't have a lot of practice kissing then you probably should practice on your hand first to figure out how to do it without slobbering. Slobber is a big turn off. Also, move your lips -- just pressing your face against hers and holding it there is weird and not sexy (and a common mistake of inexperienced kissers). You want to kind of gently grasp her lips with your lips and alternate between the top and bottom lips. Lightly running your tongue along her lips, just a little big inside (maybe 30ish degrees towards the inside from where her lips touch when she closes her mouth -- does that make sense?), is nice too, but don't jam your tongue into her mouth. If she's more experienced than you, wait and see what she does with her tongue to your mouth and tongue and then copy her. Often someone will kiss you in the way they like to be kissed. Again, practicing on your hand, or on the more sensitive skin of the inside of your elbow, can be a good way to try out what feels good on the receiving end of your lips.
MAKE SURE YOUR BREATH IS FRESH BEFORE KISSING!!!!!!! If it's not possible to discreetly slip away to a bathroom to brush your teeth and/or use mouth wash (feasible if you're in your home or hers [you can put toothpaste on your finger and use that instead of a toothbrush], not so much if you're out on a date since guys don't carry purses), then use gum and drink lots of water after eating, or drink alcohol and subtly swish it around your mouth a bit before swallowing.
Once you are at the mouth-kissing level then it probably would be appropriate and welcome to put your arm around her waist, hug her, hold her, etc.
Further levels of sexual intimacy really depend on the girl and her attitudes (religious or otherwise) towards sex. Some girls will be comfortable sleeping with you on the first date, some will wait until you marry them. (You should spend some time thinking about both your own attitudes about when sex is appropriate, as well as what type of girl you want to be with.) If she doesn't volunteer this information, once you are to the kissing/hugging/holding stage you might want to initiate a conversation with her on this subject.
(Whatever your moral beliefs are, for physical and emotional health reasons I recommend dating at least a month, being in an exclusive relationship, a discussion of birth control methods, and mutual STD testing before entering the sexual phase of a relationship. It can be easier to have this conversation over the phone than in person so bring it up in a phone call if you're uncomfortable with these subjects. "I really, really like you and I hope that this is leading to an intimate relationship... to be safe there are some things I'd like us to discuss before we reach that point.")
Touching her butt, boobs, belly, or thighs is foreplay and thus you should probably hold off on going there unless you reasonably think that you will be having sex with her on that date or in the near future. Whenever a guy tried to touch me in those places too soon it was a creepy turnoff.
Most women seem to like it when the guy leads the way/seduces them, so once you have an idea of what pace she'd be comfortable with, then you should strive to initiate the escalation of your physical relationship at that pace or a little faster. If she has to seduce you, she will probably feel let down.
Kissing her neck is usually a turn on. Offering a massage is a good way to get a woman partially or fully undressed and comfortable with you touching her body and will often lead to sex afterwards. (So, don't offer a massage until you're ready to have sex and you think there's a good chance that she is too.) Start rubbing her through her clothes and if she likes it you can then offer, "You know, I could give you a better massage if you take your shirt off." It really works!!
If you are able to deduce when she last had her period, and how long her monthly cycle is, you will have better luck if you time your seduction for when she is ovulating. This is an average of 14 days before the beginning of her period, so if she is on a normal 28 day cycle it will be an average of 14 days after the first day of her last period. Signs that she is indeed ovulating are wearing more provocative clothing and more overtly sexual behavior. Many women get very, very horny when they ovulate and become more promiscuous. If she is on hormonal birth control (the pill, patch, shot, implant, etc.), then she won't actually ovulate and while there will still be some hormonal surges at that time, the effects won't be as strong. Anti-depressants also tend to decrease women's sex drives, so if you know she's on those you are probably going to have a harder time getting her to want sex.
If you're seducing her at your place, MAKE SURE YOUR SHEETS, BLANKETS, ETC. ARE FRESHLY CLEANED!!!!!! You can't usually smell your accumulated body odor on your bedding because it's your odor, but she can smell it and it can be pretty gross. In general, clean your place up and make it smell nice -- women tend to be more sensitive about these things than men are. Filth, bad smells, etc. are major turn offs. So is being too cold, so turn up the heat a little (she will be more willing to take her clothes off).
I always knew by the third date if I *wanted* to eventually have sex with a guy, even if I wasn't ready to quite yet. So, for the first three dates, watch for signs that she wants you -- she likes/is comfortable with you touching her, and physical indicators of arousal (flushed cheeks, dilated pupils, licking her lips, heavier breathing, touching you more). If you don't see any then she might not be that interested, or she might have a low sex drive and is a poor match if you don't have a low sex drive too.
The key thing to remember is that women want sex and like sex too. So your job is to a) make her feel comfortable having sex with you in particular, and b) don't do anything to turn her off.
Good luck!!!!!
posted by Jacqueline at 11:30 PM on February 16, 2008 [27 favorites]
I would expect a guy to kiss me on the mouth no later than the third date and if he didn't I would wonder what was wrong with him. Kissing earlier is OK if there is strong physical chemistry and we're really comfortable with each other, but sometimes it takes a couple of dates to achieve the right comfort level and that's OK too. Kissing on the cheek or hand on earlier dates is a nice way to be less intimate than mouth-kissing but still show a romantic interest.
Other things you can do prior to kissing to show romantic interest and increase her comfort level with you touching her is touch her on her shoulder, elbow, or hand. Then progress to touching her on the small of her back (small of her back! not her butt, yet!!!), hair, cheek, holding her hand, or putting your arm around her shoulders. These touches are all good lead-ups to kissing, and you can monitor her reactions to see how much she likes you touching her. (If she stiffens up, pulls away, removes your hand, etc. then you should back off. If she does this but then accepts another date invitation then she was probably just uncomfortable with the speed or circumstances of your advances but is still attracted to you, if she doesn't accept another date invitation then she is not attracted and you should move on.)
If you don't have a lot of practice kissing then you probably should practice on your hand first to figure out how to do it without slobbering. Slobber is a big turn off. Also, move your lips -- just pressing your face against hers and holding it there is weird and not sexy (and a common mistake of inexperienced kissers). You want to kind of gently grasp her lips with your lips and alternate between the top and bottom lips. Lightly running your tongue along her lips, just a little big inside (maybe 30ish degrees towards the inside from where her lips touch when she closes her mouth -- does that make sense?), is nice too, but don't jam your tongue into her mouth. If she's more experienced than you, wait and see what she does with her tongue to your mouth and tongue and then copy her. Often someone will kiss you in the way they like to be kissed. Again, practicing on your hand, or on the more sensitive skin of the inside of your elbow, can be a good way to try out what feels good on the receiving end of your lips.
MAKE SURE YOUR BREATH IS FRESH BEFORE KISSING!!!!!!! If it's not possible to discreetly slip away to a bathroom to brush your teeth and/or use mouth wash (feasible if you're in your home or hers [you can put toothpaste on your finger and use that instead of a toothbrush], not so much if you're out on a date since guys don't carry purses), then use gum and drink lots of water after eating, or drink alcohol and subtly swish it around your mouth a bit before swallowing.
Once you are at the mouth-kissing level then it probably would be appropriate and welcome to put your arm around her waist, hug her, hold her, etc.
Further levels of sexual intimacy really depend on the girl and her attitudes (religious or otherwise) towards sex. Some girls will be comfortable sleeping with you on the first date, some will wait until you marry them. (You should spend some time thinking about both your own attitudes about when sex is appropriate, as well as what type of girl you want to be with.) If she doesn't volunteer this information, once you are to the kissing/hugging/holding stage you might want to initiate a conversation with her on this subject.
(Whatever your moral beliefs are, for physical and emotional health reasons I recommend dating at least a month, being in an exclusive relationship, a discussion of birth control methods, and mutual STD testing before entering the sexual phase of a relationship. It can be easier to have this conversation over the phone than in person so bring it up in a phone call if you're uncomfortable with these subjects. "I really, really like you and I hope that this is leading to an intimate relationship... to be safe there are some things I'd like us to discuss before we reach that point.")
Touching her butt, boobs, belly, or thighs is foreplay and thus you should probably hold off on going there unless you reasonably think that you will be having sex with her on that date or in the near future. Whenever a guy tried to touch me in those places too soon it was a creepy turnoff.
Most women seem to like it when the guy leads the way/seduces them, so once you have an idea of what pace she'd be comfortable with, then you should strive to initiate the escalation of your physical relationship at that pace or a little faster. If she has to seduce you, she will probably feel let down.
Kissing her neck is usually a turn on. Offering a massage is a good way to get a woman partially or fully undressed and comfortable with you touching her body and will often lead to sex afterwards. (So, don't offer a massage until you're ready to have sex and you think there's a good chance that she is too.) Start rubbing her through her clothes and if she likes it you can then offer, "You know, I could give you a better massage if you take your shirt off." It really works!!
If you are able to deduce when she last had her period, and how long her monthly cycle is, you will have better luck if you time your seduction for when she is ovulating. This is an average of 14 days before the beginning of her period, so if she is on a normal 28 day cycle it will be an average of 14 days after the first day of her last period. Signs that she is indeed ovulating are wearing more provocative clothing and more overtly sexual behavior. Many women get very, very horny when they ovulate and become more promiscuous. If she is on hormonal birth control (the pill, patch, shot, implant, etc.), then she won't actually ovulate and while there will still be some hormonal surges at that time, the effects won't be as strong. Anti-depressants also tend to decrease women's sex drives, so if you know she's on those you are probably going to have a harder time getting her to want sex.
If you're seducing her at your place, MAKE SURE YOUR SHEETS, BLANKETS, ETC. ARE FRESHLY CLEANED!!!!!! You can't usually smell your accumulated body odor on your bedding because it's your odor, but she can smell it and it can be pretty gross. In general, clean your place up and make it smell nice -- women tend to be more sensitive about these things than men are. Filth, bad smells, etc. are major turn offs. So is being too cold, so turn up the heat a little (she will be more willing to take her clothes off).
I always knew by the third date if I *wanted* to eventually have sex with a guy, even if I wasn't ready to quite yet. So, for the first three dates, watch for signs that she wants you -- she likes/is comfortable with you touching her, and physical indicators of arousal (flushed cheeks, dilated pupils, licking her lips, heavier breathing, touching you more). If you don't see any then she might not be that interested, or she might have a low sex drive and is a poor match if you don't have a low sex drive too.
The key thing to remember is that women want sex and like sex too. So your job is to a) make her feel comfortable having sex with you in particular, and b) don't do anything to turn her off.
Good luck!!!!!
posted by Jacqueline at 11:30 PM on February 16, 2008 [27 favorites]
The question you really should be asking is this, "Can you read body language?" This has nothing to do with lack of experience. It really doesn't. If she is comfortable around you now, you can take it slowly to another step such as holding her hand. Her body language will tell you, instantly, if she wants you to go further.
As far as kissing, oh wow, kissing is an art form but it's an intuitive one. Don't start with tongue, really. Start softly, on the lips, gently, don't attack with the tongue right from the start. Her mouth, like her body, will guide you.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 11:36 PM on February 16, 2008
As far as kissing, oh wow, kissing is an art form but it's an intuitive one. Don't start with tongue, really. Start softly, on the lips, gently, don't attack with the tongue right from the start. Her mouth, like her body, will guide you.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 11:36 PM on February 16, 2008
I'm more likely to be overly restraining myself
Yeah, don't do this. It's like asking her out on a date -- the best way to do that is to just ask clearly and directly, rather than some passive or elliptical and vague thing where the date request is buried under a flood of subordinate clauses and escape routes.
So don't be aggressive or pushy or creepy. But tune into her body language, and don't be afraid to be the person who "takes things up a notch" -- touching her, going in for the kiss, whatever. Don't make her do all the work, any more than you would only go on dates if she called first or something. Dating (and sex) should be mutual, with both parties involved and active.
I don't think averages are real important. I mean, if one time I had sex on the first date, and another time we dated for four months first, my average would be two months .... but that would have been the wrong time in both cases.
More important, though, is being able to see (and be ready to act) when there are turning points, or moments of opportunity, or whatever you want to call it, in the relationship. A developing relationship, if you were to graph it, is not a slowly rising curve of intimacy -- instead, it would look like a series of plateaus and abrupt jumps up. Why? Because a relationship usually has a bunch of very clear before-and-after moments: you haven't kissed, and then you have kissed; you haven't slept at her house, and then you have slept at her house. And even when these events are more vague, in retrospect you can usually see how Wednesday was a lot different than Sunday because of what went on in between.
So there are these moments of opportunity, where one of you decides, "hey, I'm ready for kissing" -- the light is right, the pheromones are working, the wine at dinner was good, Kenny G is doing his thing on the stereo, whatever works for you. You can kiss her then... but if you hem and haw and decide to think about it for a while, an hour later (even five minutes later, maybe) things have changed, and going in for the kiss won't work.
It's all about body language, and verbal cues: if she is leaning in close and looks ready to kiss, her hand is on your thigh, this is probably a good moment to kiss her. If you walk her home after dinner and she says, "hey, want to have some coffee at my place?" she probably isn't really asking you if you want coffee, if you see what I mean -- even if there is no physical contact at all, that is an offer to increase your intimacy, by entering her private space. You are looking for subtext, not just the text -- what she means with her actions and words. (A lot of comedy relies on the humor of getting these cues wrong -- there is a really nice scene showing this near the beginning of the film Superbad where the girl is clearly hinting for the guy to ask her out after class, and the humor comes from his missing what she means and addressing only what she says.)
Lastly, part of what makes all this so complicated (and makes averages so unhelpful) is that everyone is different, and in very distinct ways. Girl A will like handholding and spooning when you sleep over and will introduce you to all her stuffed animals; Girl B will say "hell no!" to the handholding and want her personal space except that she gives all her platonic guy friends backrubs and confuses you about whether she likes you or not; and Girl C has some other totally random set of yesses and noes for you to figure out -- just like each of them has to figure you out, as well. It's like a dance, where each person is trying to communicate with imperfect skills, and sometimes you have to get it wrong a few times before getting it right.
posted by Forktine at 6:04 AM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]
Yeah, don't do this. It's like asking her out on a date -- the best way to do that is to just ask clearly and directly, rather than some passive or elliptical and vague thing where the date request is buried under a flood of subordinate clauses and escape routes.
So don't be aggressive or pushy or creepy. But tune into her body language, and don't be afraid to be the person who "takes things up a notch" -- touching her, going in for the kiss, whatever. Don't make her do all the work, any more than you would only go on dates if she called first or something. Dating (and sex) should be mutual, with both parties involved and active.
I don't think averages are real important. I mean, if one time I had sex on the first date, and another time we dated for four months first, my average would be two months .... but that would have been the wrong time in both cases.
More important, though, is being able to see (and be ready to act) when there are turning points, or moments of opportunity, or whatever you want to call it, in the relationship. A developing relationship, if you were to graph it, is not a slowly rising curve of intimacy -- instead, it would look like a series of plateaus and abrupt jumps up. Why? Because a relationship usually has a bunch of very clear before-and-after moments: you haven't kissed, and then you have kissed; you haven't slept at her house, and then you have slept at her house. And even when these events are more vague, in retrospect you can usually see how Wednesday was a lot different than Sunday because of what went on in between.
So there are these moments of opportunity, where one of you decides, "hey, I'm ready for kissing" -- the light is right, the pheromones are working, the wine at dinner was good, Kenny G is doing his thing on the stereo, whatever works for you. You can kiss her then... but if you hem and haw and decide to think about it for a while, an hour later (even five minutes later, maybe) things have changed, and going in for the kiss won't work.
It's all about body language, and verbal cues: if she is leaning in close and looks ready to kiss, her hand is on your thigh, this is probably a good moment to kiss her. If you walk her home after dinner and she says, "hey, want to have some coffee at my place?" she probably isn't really asking you if you want coffee, if you see what I mean -- even if there is no physical contact at all, that is an offer to increase your intimacy, by entering her private space. You are looking for subtext, not just the text -- what she means with her actions and words. (A lot of comedy relies on the humor of getting these cues wrong -- there is a really nice scene showing this near the beginning of the film Superbad where the girl is clearly hinting for the guy to ask her out after class, and the humor comes from his missing what she means and addressing only what she says.)
Lastly, part of what makes all this so complicated (and makes averages so unhelpful) is that everyone is different, and in very distinct ways. Girl A will like handholding and spooning when you sleep over and will introduce you to all her stuffed animals; Girl B will say "hell no!" to the handholding and want her personal space except that she gives all her platonic guy friends backrubs and confuses you about whether she likes you or not; and Girl C has some other totally random set of yesses and noes for you to figure out -- just like each of them has to figure you out, as well. It's like a dance, where each person is trying to communicate with imperfect skills, and sometimes you have to get it wrong a few times before getting it right.
posted by Forktine at 6:04 AM on February 17, 2008 [5 favorites]
My husband was so nervous and shy for the longest time. We literally held hands for a few months before anything happened, apart from kissing. We had wild, passionate hand holding. Lots of finger rubbing and kissing of hands. I was way more experienced than husband when we met, and I still saw nothing with the 90-day hand holding period. I think it's one of the reasons why we are married today. We got to know one another. We had an actual courtship as corny as that sounds. We didn't rush into anything. I see nothing wrong with holding hands. It's a very sweet, affectionate thing to do. Take your time.
posted by LoriFLA at 6:10 AM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by LoriFLA at 6:10 AM on February 17, 2008 [1 favorite]
The hand holding question is a question for each individual. It honestly does squick me out unless the relationship is already serious. Hand holding is for people who are in love and who are perfectly comfortable with each other, and that can take a while. Or for kids. But of course, other women disagree.
You just need to be honest with whomever you date. The right person for you will react in the right way.
posted by iguanapolitico at 7:09 AM on February 17, 2008
You just need to be honest with whomever you date. The right person for you will react in the right way.
posted by iguanapolitico at 7:09 AM on February 17, 2008
I'd definitely be careful with the hand holding. One woman that I see once in a while seems to love it, and we don't have a particularly strong bond. But I know other women who absolutely hate it. These are not women who are shy of sex. I think they feel like it's too coupley. Actually I know a woman who is in a couple and she hates that he wants to hold her hand all the time.
Kissing is definitely a simpler thing. I think if a woman is into you, she is going to be cool with kissing. Holding hands, not necessarily. It's counter-intuitive.
Good luck!
posted by sully75 at 7:42 AM on February 17, 2008
Kissing is definitely a simpler thing. I think if a woman is into you, she is going to be cool with kissing. Holding hands, not necessarily. It's counter-intuitive.
Good luck!
posted by sully75 at 7:42 AM on February 17, 2008
Search ebay for 'Mind of Mystery Magnus Opus'. Mystery is part of the clan of guys that have turned dating into a sport. (He was on the TV show "Pickup Artist".) They spend their lives studying the nuances of how relationships work, and then use it to leverage themselves into girl's pants. You may not agree with how they play the game, but they are artists into understanding when and how to move a relationship from meeting to sex. The Opus I referred to includes a series of videos which they show and explain many of the processes the use.
For instance, if you need to know if a girl is ready to kiss you, they have a series of tests they run against the girl. (She doesn't know it, but because they are well rehearsed, it plays out without her knowing what he's doing.)
posted by bprater at 9:49 AM on February 17, 2008
For instance, if you need to know if a girl is ready to kiss you, they have a series of tests they run against the girl. (She doesn't know it, but because they are well rehearsed, it plays out without her knowing what he's doing.)
posted by bprater at 9:49 AM on February 17, 2008
were I to rely solely on what "feels right," I'd be moving far too quicklywere I to rely solely on what "feels right," I'd be moving far too quickly
10 million years of evolution says otherwise. Connecting with a love interest is all about trusting that you have already got all the programming on board needed to make it work.
Having said that, don't forget the clit.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:00 PM on February 17, 2008
10 million years of evolution says otherwise. Connecting with a love interest is all about trusting that you have already got all the programming on board needed to make it work.
Having said that, don't forget the clit.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:00 PM on February 17, 2008
i've read a ton of the "pickup artist" materials. some of it's valuable and interesting, some of it's complete bs, but one book in particular stands out as being useful and well written (as well as being perhaps a notch more pc, or at least not particularly belittling of women) anyway every time i read one of these "what do i do in this situation with this girl" questions i want to recommend this ebook:
http://www.themysterymethod.com/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,2/category_id,1/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,53/
god, the copy for this thing on the order page is unbelievably full of hype! well, never mind, ignore all that, it's actually a good book.
it's written with the idea of being for guys who want to pick up girls at clubs all the time as a hobby (which is perhaps a bit creepy, but a lot of guys can probably relate to this desire to some degree) but really it mostly reads like an instruction manual for dating women. all the questions you've asked here are answered in detail, along with a lot of other stuff you'll probably be interested in. i've never had too much trouble with the dating/girlfriends thing but still i wish to hell i'd read this when i was 15 - i suspect it would have saved me an unbelievable amount of trouble, faux-pas and heartache. certainly i've noticed a marked improvement in how smoothly my dating experiences have gone since i read this thing.
the book is a quite expensive. i think it's probably worth the price for someone who has very little experience with women and wants to know how the hell to deal with dating them. but i've also seen this on ebay for much, much less. fwiw i have ordered stuff off this website before, they're a real company who billed me for the appropriate amount.
for the record, i have no financial or personal investment in this company, i'm just fairly impressed with the book and think it would answer your questions thoroughly.
posted by messiahwannabe at 10:05 PM on February 17, 2008
Seconding The Guide to Getting it On - it's funny and not creepy and actually really, really helpful for those of us who like book learnin'. And you won't be embarrassed to keep it on your bookshelf. Everyone who finds it at my house LOVES it and usually takes it home for a few days.
posted by jrichards at 6:39 AM on February 18, 2008
posted by jrichards at 6:39 AM on February 18, 2008
In terms of kissing, Violet Blue has got you covered. Check out her ebook on kissing. There's also an audio version.
posted by A Kingdom for a Donkey at 12:25 AM on February 20, 2008
posted by A Kingdom for a Donkey at 12:25 AM on February 20, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bingo at 7:24 PM on February 16, 2008 [3 favorites]