Is this racist?
December 29, 2007 9:39 AM Subscribe
An upper class white Southern lady says of an athlete while watching sports on TV: "Look at him, he's dark. He's like charcoal." Is that a racist comment or am I oversensitive? There were no black people in the room when the comment was made. It made me uncomfortable but I didn't say anything.
I like the fact that you mention "upper class white Southern lady". Sure way to get lots of "yes"?
posted by lucia__is__dada at 9:45 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by lucia__is__dada at 9:45 AM on December 29, 2007
No more racist than when you go to the beach and go "oh my god. that guy is pasty white."
posted by lucia__is__dada at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2007 [10 favorites]
posted by lucia__is__dada at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2007 [10 favorites]
I don't see it as racist, but I do see it as a little weird. That is, pointing out the otherness of someone else in that "wow, that person is so unlike me/us that it's worth remarking on..." is likely a statement made by someone in a position of privilege and in a situation where they are among members of their own class/race/station and don't regularly interact with people who are different. For some people in these positions, it wouldn't occur to them that talking that way about someone else might be seen as a little odd.
posted by jessamyn at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2007 [15 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2007 [15 favorites]
There are varying shades of black. I think I would pause but think little of it, unless she was using a certain tone of voice. If it was said matter of factly I don't know that it would necessarily bother me.
posted by hiptobesquare at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by hiptobesquare at 9:46 AM on December 29, 2007
As I understand it, racism is a conclusion that someone is inferior that is based, at least in part, upon the color of their skin. If that is the case, why would simply marveling about their particular skin-tone be racist, unless it is said derisively (suggesting that they believe the person is inferior)?
posted by jayder at 9:52 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by jayder at 9:52 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think it would definitely depend on the tone of voice. Here in India, a lot of importance is paid to shades of skin colour, with the implication always being that darker shades are somehow inferior. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone comment on how dark another person is and always, always with that something in their voice that tells you they mean it as an insult.
posted by peacheater at 9:54 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by peacheater at 9:54 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
The definition of racism is "a belief in the inherent superiority of one race over another". Simply pointing out the color of someone's skin does not cross that line in any way, as far as I'm concerned. The conversation, had it continued, could have led to the exposure of decidedly racist beliefs on her part, but it sounds like it didn't.
posted by deadmessenger at 9:55 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by deadmessenger at 9:55 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
My mom, who fits the description of the woman you mentioned, has made the observation that an extremely dark-skinned person is "so black he's almost blue." I don't think that particular comment is meant to be racist, although it may not be the most sensitive in the world. Her point seemed to be on how visually striking this person was. I think people have become conditioned to become intimidated to make any comments on race at all. Because of this conditioning, someone who makes a comment like this will cause the hair to raise on the back of some people's necks, regardless of intent. That isn't necessarily a bad thing if it causes the average person to more carefully consider their remarks on race and color.
I think that extremes in skin tone are noticed by most, and this has been taken advantage of in the media (i.e. the Benetton ads with the darkest African paired with the palest Scandinavian; that Janet Jackson video with the super dark-skinned male model in the white sand).
posted by justonegirl at 10:01 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think that extremes in skin tone are noticed by most, and this has been taken advantage of in the media (i.e. the Benetton ads with the darkest African paired with the palest Scandinavian; that Janet Jackson video with the super dark-skinned male model in the white sand).
posted by justonegirl at 10:01 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
I wonder, is it racist? As I whitey, I regularly hear people refer to other whites as dark skinned, olive skinned, 'her complexion is like porcelain', etc. C'mon, get over it - racial equality is about not discriminating others because of their race, not about ignoring the fact that we ARE different.
posted by jedrek at 10:04 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by jedrek at 10:04 AM on December 29, 2007
Not necessarily racist. Black people also comment on how dark some other Black people are. However, if said upper class white Southern lady had added the words, "bless his heart" after her little description, it might have given pause. I was just on another blog where one topic was about mandigo fetishes. Maybe upper class white Southern lady was having a bit of fantasy...
posted by fuse theorem at 10:06 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by fuse theorem at 10:06 AM on December 29, 2007
Unless she gave any other indication I wouldn't take the statement itself to be racist. Sometimes people have physical characteristics that are remarkable, no matter how many different sorts of people you interact with, and skin colour is no exception - the pasty white above is a good counter-example; it may not be polite but it's not racist. I think the fact that this was an athlete on television might have also heightened the remarkableness for her - really dark features can be difficult to differentiate on screen, especially when the person isn't wearing any makeup (which I assume the athlete wasn't).
posted by goo at 10:08 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by goo at 10:08 AM on December 29, 2007
Speaking as a real live black person, I'm curious why you want to deny upper class white Southern ladies the right to comment about another person's skin tone. Call me when she's clamoring for "them" to be kept outta her house/community/city/nation etc, then we'll have a situation worth worrying about.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:13 AM on December 29, 2007 [10 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:13 AM on December 29, 2007 [10 favorites]
My mum used to make comments like this. And I can say that, given that in other cases she occasionally said things other that were racist, a comment like this would not have been intended as racism, but more an impolite but well meaning observation.
posted by Jimbob at 10:17 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by Jimbob at 10:17 AM on December 29, 2007
I think it was a comment on skin color, not a comment on race.
posted by disclaimer at 10:19 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by disclaimer at 10:19 AM on December 29, 2007
An upper class white Southern lady...
I'd say the poster is the racist in this equation.
posted by rhizome at 10:25 AM on December 29, 2007
I'd say the poster is the racist in this equation.
posted by rhizome at 10:25 AM on December 29, 2007
What was the context? Did she go on to comment on how another athlete was a lighter-skinned black man, and wow, isn't it interesting that there are such variations? Or did she go on to comment on how he for-sure wouldn't be allowed into her country club?
As an upper-class white Southern lady myself, I have to wonder if you'd be asking the same question if the original commentor's demographic had been different ... maybe a middle-class Midwesterner would get a pass?
I know it can be hard to believe, but some of us *have* moved on from Bull Connor and the fire hoses -- and many of us knew that was a crock of shit to begin with.
posted by mccxxiii at 10:31 AM on December 29, 2007
As an upper-class white Southern lady myself, I have to wonder if you'd be asking the same question if the original commentor's demographic had been different ... maybe a middle-class Midwesterner would get a pass?
I know it can be hard to believe, but some of us *have* moved on from Bull Connor and the fire hoses -- and many of us knew that was a crock of shit to begin with.
posted by mccxxiii at 10:31 AM on December 29, 2007
Is this racist:
"Deep Black, Ashy Black, Pale Black, Jet Black, Pitch Black, Dead Black, Blue Black, Purple Black, Chocolate-Brown, Coffee, Sealskin-Brown, Deep Brown, Honey Brown, Red Brown, Deep Yella Brown, Chocolate, High-Brown, Low-Brown, Velvet Brown, Bronze, Gingerbread, Light Brown, Tan, Olive, Copper, Pink, Banana, Cream, Orange, High Yalla, Lemon, Oh, and Yeah Caramel."
In Real Life, from African-American photographer Carrie Mae Weems.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:32 AM on December 29, 2007 [3 favorites]
"Deep Black, Ashy Black, Pale Black, Jet Black, Pitch Black, Dead Black, Blue Black, Purple Black, Chocolate-Brown, Coffee, Sealskin-Brown, Deep Brown, Honey Brown, Red Brown, Deep Yella Brown, Chocolate, High-Brown, Low-Brown, Velvet Brown, Bronze, Gingerbread, Light Brown, Tan, Olive, Copper, Pink, Banana, Cream, Orange, High Yalla, Lemon, Oh, and Yeah Caramel."
In Real Life, from African-American photographer Carrie Mae Weems.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:32 AM on December 29, 2007 [3 favorites]
Mere physical descriptions, if accurate, are not racist. Who hasn't been startled by the varieties of human coloration?
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:43 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:43 AM on December 29, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'd say borderline, but racist in the way an older relative will call the neighbor down the road "that nice colored fellow." I'm sure she meant no harm, but is just kind of an idiot.
posted by whoaali at 10:47 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by whoaali at 10:47 AM on December 29, 2007
I'd say it's no odder than referring to someone as an upperclass southern lady. As a middle class southern female, that description makes me feel somewhat odd, but hey, I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it.
posted by frobozz at 10:53 AM on December 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by frobozz at 10:53 AM on December 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
She should have avoided saying that in the same way you wouldn't mention other physical characteristics. (Look at her, she has nice big boobies. Like watermelons. Look at her, she's got big teeth. Like a bottle opener.) However, her comment was not necessarily racist.
Once my then five-year-old niece looked at a lady in the supermarket and shouted, "Boy is she BLACK." Truly, the woman had the darkest complexion I've ever seen. Was my niece being a racist? No, of course she wasn’t. Was she being rude? Absolutely. We did have a conversation about that. (Oh, and the woman was a total sweetheart about it.)
posted by 26.2 at 10:56 AM on December 29, 2007 [3 favorites]
Once my then five-year-old niece looked at a lady in the supermarket and shouted, "Boy is she BLACK." Truly, the woman had the darkest complexion I've ever seen. Was my niece being a racist? No, of course she wasn’t. Was she being rude? Absolutely. We did have a conversation about that. (Oh, and the woman was a total sweetheart about it.)
posted by 26.2 at 10:56 AM on December 29, 2007 [3 favorites]
Skin tone is such a big deal in some worlds. My light-skinned black foster child runs with a gaggle of teenagers, all different colors (mostly non-white) and sizes. The teasing is intense -- the fat kids get teased, the black-black kids get teased. Everyone seems to dish out whatever they've got on the other kids, and no one seems to get mad but just to dish out in return. But it's real, too. My kid has announced that he would never date a "really black" boy.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:02 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:02 AM on December 29, 2007
I don't see it as being any more "racist" than a black person (of any class) saying about a white person with extra-fair skin, "Look how pale they are!" It was apparently just an observation.
I'm sorry that her comment made you feel uncomfortable, but you really need to lighten up. No pun intended toward whatever color your skin is, of course.
posted by susiepie at 11:19 AM on December 29, 2007
I'm sorry that her comment made you feel uncomfortable, but you really need to lighten up. No pun intended toward whatever color your skin is, of course.
posted by susiepie at 11:19 AM on December 29, 2007
It's socially somewhat suspect to notice degrees of dark skin, because many people are sensitized to racism. But noticing actual skin color isn't the same as discriminating on account of color.
posted by theora55 at 11:57 AM on December 29, 2007
posted by theora55 at 11:57 AM on December 29, 2007
Yeah, it's certainly kind of rude, and yeah, since she was a Southern lady (as I myself am), I see where there's the sense that if an older Southern person even mentions that they're aware of another person's skin color, it might have a sort of racist odor to it. A lot of us have been taught to be almost pathologically sensitive to stuff like this. It doesn't sound like that's what she intended, but as someone who's had definite twinges when an (older, Southern) relative makes a similar comment, I see why it might occur to you.
I'm personally so pale as to be nearly translucent, and people comment about it quite often. Sometimes it doesn't strike me as rude, sometimes it does, and generally it's easy to decide based on their tone and the substance of the comment. For example, when the wrinkly, age-spotted old woman who saw the slight pinkening of my forearms as the result of forgetting to reapply sunscreen at a baseball game shrieked, "Ooooh, paleface got a sunburn!" I was pretty miffed.
posted by mostlymartha at 12:05 PM on December 29, 2007
I'm personally so pale as to be nearly translucent, and people comment about it quite often. Sometimes it doesn't strike me as rude, sometimes it does, and generally it's easy to decide based on their tone and the substance of the comment. For example, when the wrinkly, age-spotted old woman who saw the slight pinkening of my forearms as the result of forgetting to reapply sunscreen at a baseball game shrieked, "Ooooh, paleface got a sunburn!" I was pretty miffed.
posted by mostlymartha at 12:05 PM on December 29, 2007
This sort of thing is almost impossible to resolve without witnessing it, knowing the person, and perhaps a touch of telepathy. Could be vicious racism, could be fascination with the different. I've known some people who are more melanin-rich than I who have been fascinated with my pigment-poor skin tone, and have commented on it with nothing more than just complete surprise at the contrast.
posted by adipocere at 12:28 PM on December 29, 2007
posted by adipocere at 12:28 PM on December 29, 2007
I think people have become conditioned to become intimidated to make any comments on race at all. Because of this conditioning, someone who makes a comment like this will cause the hair to raise on the back of some people's necks, regardless of intent. That isn't necessarily a bad thing if it causes the average person to more carefully consider their remarks on race and color.
I agree with this. It doesn't sound to me (though of course we have too little to go on, as adipocere says) as if it was a racist remark, simply someone noticing a striking physical characteristic (and I totally disagree with "She should have avoided saying that in the same way you wouldn't mention other physical characteristics"—we're talking about watching TV, not discussing someone in the room, for Pete's sake). It's a shame the social/racial situation is such that simply noticing another person's difference is grounds for suspicion, but we go to life with the world we live in, not the world we wish we lived in.
posted by languagehat at 12:38 PM on December 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
I agree with this. It doesn't sound to me (though of course we have too little to go on, as adipocere says) as if it was a racist remark, simply someone noticing a striking physical characteristic (and I totally disagree with "She should have avoided saying that in the same way you wouldn't mention other physical characteristics"—we're talking about watching TV, not discussing someone in the room, for Pete's sake). It's a shame the social/racial situation is such that simply noticing another person's difference is grounds for suspicion, but we go to life with the world we live in, not the world we wish we lived in.
posted by languagehat at 12:38 PM on December 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
My daughter used to babysit an infant from Lesotho, when we lived in an international student housing complex. Truly, this little kid had the biggest lips in the world. I remember once commenting on a picture of her to that effect, amongst people (all white) who didn't know the family or the little girl in question, and there was a deafening silence. At the time I thought it was the most natural thing in the world to comment on - I mean, her lips were 1/3 of her face - but it seemed that I had inadvertently created the awkward moment the O/P refers to. Of course, I get why there was a pause, but I still think that it was not a racist comment - though probably that is not my call alone.
posted by Rumple at 1:16 PM on December 29, 2007
posted by Rumple at 1:16 PM on December 29, 2007
I am the kind of white person who grew up in an almost-entirely white town where race was treated like a physical deformity--something it would be rude to comment on. In college, I dated a black guy for awhile and was amazed, first, by how casually he and his black friends mentioned race. The first few times he or someone else described somebody as "that black guy who lives on my floor" or whatever I had that kind of embarrassment you have when somebody says something they shouldn't. And sometimes I would meet friends of his for the first time and they'd say, "Oh, hey, you're that white girl Ron's been dating--nice to meet you." It was eye-opening.
Now I have a black baby, and I end up talking with other parents of black babies (parents of various races) and find that the babies' various skin colors are a topic of conversation. Also a bit weird at first, but gradually I realized it really falls into the same category as "he's so chubby!" and "she has so much hair!" and "he's so strong for a three-month-old!"
I think since we (the great social "we") are trying to be sensitive about our history of racism, we do tend to hear the possible subtext in comments about hair, skin, lips, food preferences, and so on. But those subtexts aren't always there.
posted by not that girl at 1:27 PM on December 29, 2007
Now I have a black baby, and I end up talking with other parents of black babies (parents of various races) and find that the babies' various skin colors are a topic of conversation. Also a bit weird at first, but gradually I realized it really falls into the same category as "he's so chubby!" and "she has so much hair!" and "he's so strong for a three-month-old!"
I think since we (the great social "we") are trying to be sensitive about our history of racism, we do tend to hear the possible subtext in comments about hair, skin, lips, food preferences, and so on. But those subtexts aren't always there.
posted by not that girl at 1:27 PM on December 29, 2007
Not racist, but a bit idiotic. Were it me I would have replied something like "You are very perceptive", making fun of the obviousness of the comment.
posted by splice at 2:15 PM on December 29, 2007
posted by splice at 2:15 PM on December 29, 2007
It's certainly exoticizing and Othering. I don't think this is a case of you being too sensitive but without knowing intention or con-text I'd imagine it wasn't racist.
posted by christopherbdnk at 2:52 PM on December 29, 2007
posted by christopherbdnk at 2:52 PM on December 29, 2007
I'd say racism is often created in the intent, which you could never really know. But it's a pretty rude comment (as would be the 'pale' comment at the beach). Furthermore, it also shows insensitivity to the fact that many black people have been conditioned to believe that the darker the complexion, the uglier it is. If you're really interested in being a change agent in this and other similar situations, you might start by kindly asking clarifying questions like, "I didn't really notice that, why is that interesting to you?" Then, once you better know their intent, you can either educate, share your own uncomfortable interpretation and reaction or, in the rare event that their intent really was harmful, set a boundary.
posted by Skwirl at 3:05 PM on December 29, 2007
posted by Skwirl at 3:05 PM on December 29, 2007
you know, the fact that the poster is so worried that he/she had to hide and post this question anonymously, made me think of an anecdote that deeply impressed me.
a few years ago, an acquaintance, a European scholar and university professor (male, middle aged, progressive, very polite, already quite politically correct and accustomed to America manners), was about to leave for the US, where he was hired to lecture for a semester at a very tony Ivy League college. he mentioned this fact, a few weeks before he left for the US, to an American (male, same age as he, also very accomplished) colleague.
looking around with a concerned expression he began talking in a very hushed tone -- they were in a cafeteria in Europe -- "off the record, never ever quote me on this" he gave the European colleague a quick list of guidelines he NEEDED to absolutely follow as soon as he set foot in that college to have a successful, serene stay.
I'm paraphrasing, but I remember the list very well:
-- When giving grades, all students who belong to any kind of racial, religious, foreign-national minority, women, and also anybody who might have even minor physical handicaps gets As, regardless of performance, all the time. It leaves up to you to either grade honestly only the performance of male WASPs, but they might have been diagnosed with a variant of ADD, even self-diagnosed, they might be in the closet, depressed, Jhehova's witnesses, or simply very well connected with powerful alumni. Or you can simply give everybody As all the time. The American professor advised to just give As to everybody to avoid being accused of discrimination
-- Never ever acknowledge the presence of children unless the parent of adult guardian asks you to. Stay vague. Change the topic. No matter how sweet or cute they might be, never ever touch them like ruffling their hair or, god forbid, kneel down to talk to them at eye level. Better to be thought surly than a paedophile.
-- Never ever mention anybody's race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, physical handicap, not even when talking about historical figures and even celebrities (even if, like, somebody says something harmless and well-known such as "Elton John is gay" or "FDR had polio" and just shrug noncommittally and change the topic if possible)
-- Never crack jokes that might be related to gender, race, national origin, religion, handicaps, etc. Always at all cost say and write "African American", not "black".
-- Never ever find yourself alone with female students, avoid at all cost any kind of he said - she said scenario. Try always to have a third person (witness) present when interacting with students.
-- Always err on the side of caution, you'll be safe.
The European professor followed the guidelines (the everbody-gets-an-A part was the only one to slightly displease him, but he obeyed), and his stay in American academia was wildly successful, drama-free and lawsuit-free.
He came back very impressed by everybody's politeness, by the great Academic libraries, and by the "astounding", I quote, ignorance in essentially all topics non related to the subject he was teaching displayed by almost all his Ivy League students. He was asked again to go teach in the US, he politely declined.
To answer your question, yes, you're being overly sensitive, even ridiculous in my opinion, but that's OK, you're erring on the side of caution, you'll be safe.
posted by matteo at 3:05 PM on December 29, 2007 [4 favorites]
a few years ago, an acquaintance, a European scholar and university professor (male, middle aged, progressive, very polite, already quite politically correct and accustomed to America manners), was about to leave for the US, where he was hired to lecture for a semester at a very tony Ivy League college. he mentioned this fact, a few weeks before he left for the US, to an American (male, same age as he, also very accomplished) colleague.
looking around with a concerned expression he began talking in a very hushed tone -- they were in a cafeteria in Europe -- "off the record, never ever quote me on this" he gave the European colleague a quick list of guidelines he NEEDED to absolutely follow as soon as he set foot in that college to have a successful, serene stay.
I'm paraphrasing, but I remember the list very well:
-- When giving grades, all students who belong to any kind of racial, religious, foreign-national minority, women, and also anybody who might have even minor physical handicaps gets As, regardless of performance, all the time. It leaves up to you to either grade honestly only the performance of male WASPs, but they might have been diagnosed with a variant of ADD, even self-diagnosed, they might be in the closet, depressed, Jhehova's witnesses, or simply very well connected with powerful alumni. Or you can simply give everybody As all the time. The American professor advised to just give As to everybody to avoid being accused of discrimination
-- Never ever acknowledge the presence of children unless the parent of adult guardian asks you to. Stay vague. Change the topic. No matter how sweet or cute they might be, never ever touch them like ruffling their hair or, god forbid, kneel down to talk to them at eye level. Better to be thought surly than a paedophile.
-- Never ever mention anybody's race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, physical handicap, not even when talking about historical figures and even celebrities (even if, like, somebody says something harmless and well-known such as "Elton John is gay" or "FDR had polio" and just shrug noncommittally and change the topic if possible)
-- Never crack jokes that might be related to gender, race, national origin, religion, handicaps, etc. Always at all cost say and write "African American", not "black".
-- Never ever find yourself alone with female students, avoid at all cost any kind of he said - she said scenario. Try always to have a third person (witness) present when interacting with students.
-- Always err on the side of caution, you'll be safe.
The European professor followed the guidelines (the everbody-gets-an-A part was the only one to slightly displease him, but he obeyed), and his stay in American academia was wildly successful, drama-free and lawsuit-free.
He came back very impressed by everybody's politeness, by the great Academic libraries, and by the "astounding", I quote, ignorance in essentially all topics non related to the subject he was teaching displayed by almost all his Ivy League students. He was asked again to go teach in the US, he politely declined.
To answer your question, yes, you're being overly sensitive, even ridiculous in my opinion, but that's OK, you're erring on the side of caution, you'll be safe.
posted by matteo at 3:05 PM on December 29, 2007 [4 favorites]
I've never understood why making an observation about a person, or even a culture, is considered racist by so many. The woman may in fact be racist, but sometimes, darnit, you notice something that is so unique in whatever way that it deserves comment. In fact, I took a whole bunch of photos at a party I had a few years ago, and every time I look at them I comment that my black friend is so dark that he is barely visible in them. (He has never indicated that my comment offended him!)
For me, many older people I know are in fact, to some degree, racist (that's the way the generation was raised) so if I were to hear them make a comment like that, I might be aware that there are racial undertones, but the comment in itself doesn't bother me. It's a little odd, because remarking on physical traits has become kind of a sensitive thing in our society. But I think that's a problem with sensitivism, not racism. :)
Unlike the statement that an older acquaintance made, saying she didn't enjoy watching baseball as much anymore because it's gotten "too black." Now that THERE is some overt racism!
(If someone were suggesting something about the person himself based on his color, like, he were racially "more black" or "less black" because of his skin tone, that would also be racist.)
posted by iguanapolitico at 3:49 PM on December 29, 2007
For me, many older people I know are in fact, to some degree, racist (that's the way the generation was raised) so if I were to hear them make a comment like that, I might be aware that there are racial undertones, but the comment in itself doesn't bother me. It's a little odd, because remarking on physical traits has become kind of a sensitive thing in our society. But I think that's a problem with sensitivism, not racism. :)
Unlike the statement that an older acquaintance made, saying she didn't enjoy watching baseball as much anymore because it's gotten "too black." Now that THERE is some overt racism!
(If someone were suggesting something about the person himself based on his color, like, he were racially "more black" or "less black" because of his skin tone, that would also be racist.)
posted by iguanapolitico at 3:49 PM on December 29, 2007
That sounds like a perfectly fine observation to me. "Racist" get thrown around an awful lot these days, but simply noting that someone's skin color is striking (and probably damn cool looking, too) doesn't even come close to making me uncomfortable.
I'm a little surprised at the responses that said this was borderline usage; my border must be in a totally different place. But then I'm pretty thick-skinned.
posted by Aquaman at 5:21 PM on December 29, 2007
I'm a little surprised at the responses that said this was borderline usage; my border must be in a totally different place. But then I'm pretty thick-skinned.
posted by Aquaman at 5:21 PM on December 29, 2007
I wonder, would she have said it if a black person had been in the room? If not, then racism could have been the underlying impetus behind the comment, otherwise why would she feel the need to censor herself?
posted by Lillitatiana at 5:30 PM on December 29, 2007
posted by Lillitatiana at 5:30 PM on December 29, 2007
From what you've told us no, it's not racist. The tone, what came before the statement or after could change that. Of course, your "white southern lady" line with the stereotype you're invoking is much closer to offensive than what she said. She's either racist or not, and the region of the U.S. she was born doesn't add or take away from that.
Yeah, it's certainly kind of rude, and yeah, since she was a Southern lady (as I myself am), I see where there's the sense that if an older Southern person even mentions that they're aware of another person's skin color, it might have a sort of racist odor to it.
It may or may not be rude, but again, it's either racist or not. The rest of your statement is your problem and your hang-up.
I wonder, would she have said it if a black person had been in the room? If not, then racism could have been the underlying impetus behind the comment, otherwise why would she feel the need to censor herself?
Or maybe she wouldn't have said it with a black person in the room because she'd be afraid it would be taken wrong no matter her intent. So no, it doesn't have to mean racism.
posted by justgary at 6:34 PM on December 29, 2007
Yeah, it's certainly kind of rude, and yeah, since she was a Southern lady (as I myself am), I see where there's the sense that if an older Southern person even mentions that they're aware of another person's skin color, it might have a sort of racist odor to it.
It may or may not be rude, but again, it's either racist or not. The rest of your statement is your problem and your hang-up.
I wonder, would she have said it if a black person had been in the room? If not, then racism could have been the underlying impetus behind the comment, otherwise why would she feel the need to censor herself?
Or maybe she wouldn't have said it with a black person in the room because she'd be afraid it would be taken wrong no matter her intent. So no, it doesn't have to mean racism.
posted by justgary at 6:34 PM on December 29, 2007
In and of itself, I say not racist. I used to work with a guy who had the most beautiful skin I think I've ever seen, and any time I have ever mentioned it (including now) it was out of admiration for how attractive it was, precisely the same as I'd admire someone's hair, teeth, eyes or any other particularly attractive physical characteristic. I also agree with justgary that it's more offensive to assume that someone's being racist by merely noting a physical trait, especially if that person's race and place of origin is what causes you to make that assumption.
posted by biscotti at 10:25 PM on December 29, 2007
posted by biscotti at 10:25 PM on December 29, 2007
Goodness people are sensitive nowadays! Why? How is that any different than saying, "Look at her hair, it's dark like charcoal." I could be talking about a white woman with black hair, a black woman with black hair, an Asian woman with black hair or anything in between. It's just a color. Sheesh. I don't understand being so sensitive that one can't even discuss colors any more. :(
posted by magnoliasouth at 10:34 PM on December 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by magnoliasouth at 10:34 PM on December 29, 2007 [2 favorites]
Everyone here who's saying that it could've been harmless is right--it could've been... but I get the feeling it wasn't. I'm getting that vibe because you're posting, because you were made uncomfortable, because it's a person in what is indicated to be a position of relative privilege and comfort making an observation on a loaded topic, and pointing out difference in a way that, yes, can be totally innocuous, but often serves to reinforce negative concepts of difference/strangeness/exoticness/etc, and in extreme cases, inferiority. My own belief is always to follow your gut. If it puts you ill-at-ease, there may be a reason. Ask why the statement was made. If the answer offends you, say so.
posted by Subcommandante Cheese at 11:44 PM on December 29, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by Subcommandante Cheese at 11:44 PM on December 29, 2007 [3 favorites]
Um, people (in general) aren't color blind. You're totally okay with noting that the woman was white. You could even have called her pasty. That's not racist, right? Color is a way to describe things and people. Chillax. She was trying to describe a guy's color. Now, the fact that you describe her as an upper class white southern lady paints the picture of a potential racist. That's called profiling.
Commenting on color alone isn't racist. If she'd followed that up with a comment about people of "charcoal" skin being inferior, now that's racist.
posted by smeater44 at 12:05 AM on December 30, 2007
Commenting on color alone isn't racist. If she'd followed that up with a comment about people of "charcoal" skin being inferior, now that's racist.
posted by smeater44 at 12:05 AM on December 30, 2007
The comment sounds racially ignorant and would make me wonder if she is racist.
posted by Furious Fitness at 5:29 AM on December 30, 2007
posted by Furious Fitness at 5:29 AM on December 30, 2007
The way you describe the incident, makes it sound more like she was ready to start fanning herself, due to a hot flash. This isn't racism. They call it "lust". I hear it's common amongst upper-class Southern white ladies, but I wouldn't know.
posted by Goofyy at 6:02 AM on December 30, 2007
posted by Goofyy at 6:02 AM on December 30, 2007
I don't see it as racist, but I do see it as a little weird. That is, pointing out the otherness of someone else in that "wow, that person is so unlike me/us that it's worth remarking on..."
I would call that something very different from 'weird'. In fact the opposite.
I remember thinking how monstrous and evil it was when I heard that the Taliban outlawed music. What kind of humanity-hating philosophy outlaws music?? Something so basic to human experience, interaction, cognition and enjoyment.
I am experiencing these feelings again reading some of the replies in this thread.
Recognizing, analyzing, discussing, and pointing out human features and differences is normal. I'll go one further: recognizing differences is good. I'll go one further: Expecting people not to recognize differences is evil. Just as expecting people to not discuss the weather would be evil and anti-humanistic. Just as expecting people to not play music is antithetical to what it is to be human.
Questioning whether someone is a racist for pointing out a skin tone, is like questioning whether someone is a cannibal for eating a carrot.
posted by dgaicun at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
I would call that something very different from 'weird'. In fact the opposite.
I remember thinking how monstrous and evil it was when I heard that the Taliban outlawed music. What kind of humanity-hating philosophy outlaws music?? Something so basic to human experience, interaction, cognition and enjoyment.
I am experiencing these feelings again reading some of the replies in this thread.
Recognizing, analyzing, discussing, and pointing out human features and differences is normal. I'll go one further: recognizing differences is good. I'll go one further: Expecting people not to recognize differences is evil. Just as expecting people to not discuss the weather would be evil and anti-humanistic. Just as expecting people to not play music is antithetical to what it is to be human.
Questioning whether someone is a racist for pointing out a skin tone, is like questioning whether someone is a cannibal for eating a carrot.
posted by dgaicun at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
Perhaps not racist in a social setting. However, I would not want to be one to make this comment in a workplace in the US -- where such a comment could be taken as discrimination, or derogatory, and complaints filed with the company and perhaps a lawsuit....
posted by exphysicist345 at 4:54 PM on December 30, 2007
posted by exphysicist345 at 4:54 PM on December 30, 2007
Those saying that it's the same as if you've called a white person pasty are, I think, unfortunately mistaken.
An observation about your own ethnicity, gender, class, sex, etc., is much different than one about someone else's. To think that we're color-blind in that sort of way is incredibly naive. Athletes might be wealthy, but they certainly aren't 'upper-class.' The color and class and gender of the woman making the comment, though, is relevant to discussion, to demonstrate the differences between these two people.
Comments like this woman's draw attention to difference, and, in this case, to a black man's skin, to how dark it is, its closeness to nature, to impure carbon (charcoal). Whether or not she 'meant anything by it,' isn't really important for judging whether or not 'race' (ethnicity) comes into account, or if this is an essentializing remark.
Is it bigoted, or classically 'racist?' Probably not, at least, I'd hope not.
posted by christopherbdnk at 9:42 AM on December 31, 2007
An observation about your own ethnicity, gender, class, sex, etc., is much different than one about someone else's. To think that we're color-blind in that sort of way is incredibly naive. Athletes might be wealthy, but they certainly aren't 'upper-class.' The color and class and gender of the woman making the comment, though, is relevant to discussion, to demonstrate the differences between these two people.
Comments like this woman's draw attention to difference, and, in this case, to a black man's skin, to how dark it is, its closeness to nature, to impure carbon (charcoal). Whether or not she 'meant anything by it,' isn't really important for judging whether or not 'race' (ethnicity) comes into account, or if this is an essentializing remark.
Is it bigoted, or classically 'racist?' Probably not, at least, I'd hope not.
posted by christopherbdnk at 9:42 AM on December 31, 2007
We're hypersensitive about noting racial characteristics because so many people are so tone-deaf about their own prejudices that they make remarks that are ignorantly racist. Of course, it depends on what you mean by racist, too. Racist covers a spectrum that includes rude and goes all the way up to hate.
This is a shame on all sides. If folks were more comfortable discussing their differences and similarities, there might be a lot less racism. Alas, this often does not go well. I am sympathetic to how confusing this can be to an older generation adjusting to "new" rules for politeness in a less segregated society.
On the other hand, adults should have better manners than to blurt out every observation they have. If the lady in question was exclaiming over the man's race in the tone of "what a freak" than yes, it would be racist -- she would not likely be so rude as to call attention to some other characteristic she considers freakish. However, if it was in the same tone as she might note a particularly stunning woman, or a particularly tall man, that'd be ok.
posted by desuetude at 10:34 AM on January 2, 2008
This is a shame on all sides. If folks were more comfortable discussing their differences and similarities, there might be a lot less racism. Alas, this often does not go well. I am sympathetic to how confusing this can be to an older generation adjusting to "new" rules for politeness in a less segregated society.
On the other hand, adults should have better manners than to blurt out every observation they have. If the lady in question was exclaiming over the man's race in the tone of "what a freak" than yes, it would be racist -- she would not likely be so rude as to call attention to some other characteristic she considers freakish. However, if it was in the same tone as she might note a particularly stunning woman, or a particularly tall man, that'd be ok.
posted by desuetude at 10:34 AM on January 2, 2008
Where many people are commenting that you asking the question implies you felt it was racist, I'm not sure I agree. Years ago through a combination of a misunderstanding and a co-worker who was having some very big personal issues I was accused of having made a racist remark (right after it was made). [See below for the line in question.] I was shocked, confused, and very scared.
I'd never been accused of being racist before or since, I'd grown up in an area where I didn't have many classmates that weren't white and race was something that was never really discussed. (Hence the only place I heard of race was on TV where things were pretty forward thinking to me as a child. IE No racism, plots where the racist guy is a bad guy, etc.)
When he accused me I stood there for a minute very confused. He kept going on about inappropriate remarks being made towards him, and he wasn't going to take it, etc. Suddenly a voice behind me boomed for him to be quiet and I turned to see another co-worker PB (also black) backing me up. He pointed out that when I was new I always confused the names of two of our coworkers, he pointed out that racist people remember the difference between black people and white people and wouldn't "insult" them by calling them the white guy the black guys name. (One thing I remember about that conversation most vividly is the laughter from the crowd that had shown up when he pointed out that I couldn't tell the difference between white and black.) He grabbed my arm and walked outside with me. We didn't speak or anything and I was literally shaking. To this day when I think that something might be racist I run it through what I think of as the PB test. If I'd have asked PB what would he say? Would he find it racist? We spoke about race a few times after that and I found this gentleman to be a huge comfort. If he hadn't been there, I've no doubt that situation would have resulted in some serious repercussions towards me, even though I was not intending for my statement to be related to race at all, I was playing cards and was thinking about cards. (black vs red)
The remark simply on HOW dark someone is doesn't strike me as racist when watching sports. The guy stood out from the crowd. Casual conversation during sports is really all there is to do for somebody like me that doesn't really care for sports. Now a few months later another coworker was telling PB and I about a show he'd seen the night before.
BTW the line was "Man that is whack!" in reference to a card turn played. The card was red and I misunderstood thinking he said "black" and asked him what he meant. ("What do you mean it's black?") The man when ballistic asking why I'd make such a racist statement.
posted by TheDukeofLancaster at 2:53 PM on January 2, 2008
I'd never been accused of being racist before or since, I'd grown up in an area where I didn't have many classmates that weren't white and race was something that was never really discussed. (Hence the only place I heard of race was on TV where things were pretty forward thinking to me as a child. IE No racism, plots where the racist guy is a bad guy, etc.)
When he accused me I stood there for a minute very confused. He kept going on about inappropriate remarks being made towards him, and he wasn't going to take it, etc. Suddenly a voice behind me boomed for him to be quiet and I turned to see another co-worker PB (also black) backing me up. He pointed out that when I was new I always confused the names of two of our coworkers, he pointed out that racist people remember the difference between black people and white people and wouldn't "insult" them by calling them the white guy the black guys name. (One thing I remember about that conversation most vividly is the laughter from the crowd that had shown up when he pointed out that I couldn't tell the difference between white and black.) He grabbed my arm and walked outside with me. We didn't speak or anything and I was literally shaking. To this day when I think that something might be racist I run it through what I think of as the PB test. If I'd have asked PB what would he say? Would he find it racist? We spoke about race a few times after that and I found this gentleman to be a huge comfort. If he hadn't been there, I've no doubt that situation would have resulted in some serious repercussions towards me, even though I was not intending for my statement to be related to race at all, I was playing cards and was thinking about cards. (black vs red)
The remark simply on HOW dark someone is doesn't strike me as racist when watching sports. The guy stood out from the crowd. Casual conversation during sports is really all there is to do for somebody like me that doesn't really care for sports. Now a few months later another coworker was telling PB and I about a show he'd seen the night before.
Did you see the show?We both say no.
There was one kid that sang real good I was really surprised. A little black kid.PB and I looked at each other... and asked in unison "What does black have to do with it?"
BTW the line was "Man that is whack!" in reference to a card turn played. The card was red and I misunderstood thinking he said "black" and asked him what he meant. ("What do you mean it's black?") The man when ballistic asking why I'd make such a racist statement.
posted by TheDukeofLancaster at 2:53 PM on January 2, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by fire&wings at 9:44 AM on December 29, 2007