How important is college in the face of hands on experience?

November 4, 2007 1:31 PM

Job applicant with no college degree filter: Exactly how important is it to have a degree?

I would like to find work in the IT field. I have several Microsoft, Comptia, and Cisco certs under my belt but no degree, but I do have 6 years experience working in the Navy on antiquated but difficult crypto systems and I posses an active security clearance. I have worked with people, military and civilian, with and without degrees and I have never really noticed a difference in intelligence or competence. It usually had more to do with the person's personality and drive.

To the employers: Are certifications really THAT inferior? Is it really THAT damning to have varied work experience and hands on training with no degree?

To my fellow worker drones: Have you noticed any heavy discrimination between those who have degree x and those who have x years experience and training without a degree? Do you get treated differently by your peers and superiors because of this?

I am interested in hearing from people of all fields and disciplines because I suspect their may be a broad stigma concerning "higher education" and its supposed merits.

posted by Brandon1600 to work & money (25 comments total)

Certs will get you tech jobs, especially at larger corps or consulting outfits. It's an easy way to filter the pool.

A bachelor's, however, will be all but necessary if you really want to advance into any sort of management. Often, an MBA + tech certs is a better combo than, say, BSEE or MCS, unless you envision your entire career in systems engineering.

Really, it's all about getting your foot in the door. Once you're in a job it's more about performance. But there is discrimination against those without degrees or based on what kind of degree you have; to claim otherwise is unrealistic. People are jealous of their own accomplishments and guard that with varying levels of elitism, conscious or not.

It sounds like this is a cover for a more specific question, though. Really, it all depends on the company.
posted by dhartung at 1:37 PM on November 4, 2007

I'm pretty sure this is going to vary across fields, and probably just job by job within fields. A few anecdotal points from both a personal and hiring viewpoint:

I do have a bachelor's, but currently have a job that would not usually be open to me without a Master's. I worked hard at my previous jobs and impressed a colleague enough that when the opening came up, she recommended me and championed me through the hiring process and my lack of a higher degree wasn't an issue because I'd already proven what I could do. So far I'm not feeling any discrimination based on my lack of the higher degree. I'm in a social science research field.

My partner does not have any degree, but has a good programming/sysadmin job and has been offered chances to move into even higher-level jobs, although he's turned them down because he's not interested in management. He also worked his way up and made good personal connections. He's found that work experience with no degree is just fine in his technical field. Apart from one particular coworker he used to complain about who had a weird thing about non-PhDs, if he has any discrimination problems at work he's never mentioned them to me.

All that said, from a hiring perspective, a previous boss of mine (also in a social science research field) cared deeply not just about the existence of a degree, but also what school it was from. When I was his resume-screener, it happened more than once that I attempted to show him resumes that seemed strong on experience to me, and he wouldn't even look at them because of the lack of a degree.

So overall, my guess is that the lack of a degree might very well keep you out of some specific job that you want if someone involved in hiring feels strongly about the degree. But I really doubt it's going to keep you out of a whole field of work, especially if you can draw on your past contacts to help you in searching for a new job, and bust your ass doing a good job when you do get a foot in the door.
posted by Stacey at 1:43 PM on November 4, 2007

I posses an active security clearance

To some employers that's going to be much more important than a college degree.
posted by grouse at 1:44 PM on November 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

My husband and I work at Microsoft, and some of our friends who work there don't have college degrees. Nor does our boss, Bill Gates.
posted by GaelFC at 1:45 PM on November 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm going to disagree with dhartung here: the vast majority of IT certs are completely useless. Microsoft certs are particularly so - in fact, there are so many unskilled people with the MCSE certification that holding it is, generally speaking, a negative point. If you have that cert, either take it off your resume or list it only at the bottom of your resume, and for $Deity's sake, don't list it as "Brandon1600, MCSE" right at the top. The cert might help your resume penetrate the HR firewall, but once it gets to someone clueful, it'll paint you with the same brush as all the other incompetent MCSEs that have wandered through the door over the years, and anyone that's been in I.T. for a while has seen a lot of those.

CompTIA certs (A+ NET+ Security+) are viewed as being extremely entry-level. Some higher-end certs are still useful (CISSP, CCIE, RHCE) but even that is dwindling fast.

Most people in rank-and-file IT jobs do not have a degree these days. What counts is prior experience, and the ability to interview confidently. Even at the first-level management rank of IT, degrees are usually not a requirement. Beyond that, it's pretty much a must.

On the other hand, your security clearance is HUGE - there are a lot of places that will hire you based solely on that credential. People with an active clearance are very, very much in-demand, especially in information security type roles.
posted by deadmessenger at 1:52 PM on November 4, 2007

My husband and I work at Microsoft, and some of our friends who work there don't have college degrees. Nor does our boss, Bill Gates.

I was going to make this very point. There are too many people in the industry to even begin to count who don't have a degree. Sell yourself and your abilities. If you can walk your talk - the world is yours. Once upon a time, I was one of less than 2% of those in Xerox sales without a degree. Things have changed for me and I now am doing something completely different, but it makes my point. I can't stress enough - don't be afraid to boldly sell yourself.
posted by Gerard Sorme at 1:55 PM on November 4, 2007

While security clearances are in high demand, I'm not sure if someone with security clearance + no degree will necessarily benefit from that. With security clearance and a degree, you can usually get a good job with either the government or a government contractor. In my experience of looking at/interviewing for government jobs, they can be pretty inflexible about things like degrees--if it's written into the job description that a BA (or MA, or PhD) is necessary, most government agencies don't have the ability to be flexible on that requirement for an exceptional candidate like private firms do.

With a government contractor, the security clearance might be more of a plus even without the degree, but again a lot depends on what they can convince the government to pay for an hour of your time. If their contract is written such that they receive $X for people with no degree, $Y for people with a BA, and $Z for people with a MA (usually corresponding on some level to the equivalent GS pay scale for gov't employees), they're just not going to be able to be flexible about the degree requirement either.

I think that the places most likely to take a risk on someone without a degree but with experience are likely to be smaller places, like start-ups and small firms. However, those are the same places where your security clearance won't make any difference at all.

That's my $0.02 (work for a government contractor, although not in IT). The best way to find out is to just get out there and apply for jobs, though. You'll never know what is possible in terms of getting a new job until you try.
posted by iminurmefi at 2:09 PM on November 4, 2007

No degree is an element some recruitment and HR types will use to cull applicants if they have a lot.
Few skills taught at university will have any bearing on performance quite soon after graduation, so work experience trumps learning for day to day performance. There is an argument that the approach/theory/learning to learn skills picked up at university builds a platform for a career. I think this has some merit, but maybe just because of correlation rather than causation - many people with that mindset go to uni, many who lack it don't.
One thing to be cautious of is making a big deal of this. I work with a very successful woman with no degree. She is visibly insecure about this when people tell a story about uni or similar, and she is studying a business course now to try to catch up. Most people with a degree think it is no big deal if you don't have one, as long as you perform. Degree snobs probably aren't the kind of bosses you want to work for anyway.
posted by bystander at 2:49 PM on November 4, 2007

In the it's not about degrees it's ALL about networking. Classes conferences, peers are your network building blocks.
posted by Xurando at 2:57 PM on November 4, 2007

Just a side note to consider: When I'm doing hiring or recruiting for my company (typically non-IT positions), I look for people who hold a BA/BS, but I usually don't have a strong feeling toward the specific major. An undergraduate degree is 100+/- credits, less than half of which are in a specific major. An undergraduate degree is a foundation, and people usually forget that. It gives people a well-rounded background, not technical depth or a topic expertise. This is as true for economic majors as it is for business majors as it is for IT/CS majors. It has nothing to do with competence or intelligence or ability.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:12 PM on November 4, 2007

a college degree in 2007 is like a high school degree in 1987.

it's pretty much a prerequisite to any company even talking to you.

your other option is to start your own business and make your own money, but if you were going to do that you probably wouldn't be asking this question.
posted by Mr_Crazyhorse at 3:17 PM on November 4, 2007

bystander said, "No degree is an element some recruitment and HR types will use to cull applicants if they have a lot."

I work with IT managers and directors for a large company helping them bring the right people to their teams (but am not a recruiter). What you really need to know is that recruitment and HR types for larger companies are usually not technical people. They are sorting through resumes and passing along the ones that look qualified to them based on criteria they're matching to a checklist or job description.

If the description says degree, you'll likely miss the cut. These people are non-technical literalists when it comes to their job. They have to be, considering the volume of white noise they're cutting through to get a few quality resumes sent up the chain.

Also, if the specific pay grade in which they're recruiting the position generally requires a degree (thanks to some well-meaning HR type who had to draw a line in the pay grade hierarchy somewhere), then the by-the-book non-technical HR person probably won't get you a sniff.

The best question to ask, if you're attempting to apply at a company of any reasonably large size (where there are people in the process who can't see past the degree thing) is, "How do I bypass the pack and get my resume in front of a real decision maker?"

Get thee to at least three recruiters. Get recommendations from peers and people who you respect in the field. Work with at least one strong locally focused company and one national outfit (Kforce, for example) with a presence in your geographic area. Have references willing to talk to them and speak glowingly of your skills, and make sure you're up front and telling the truth about your capabilities, shortcomings, and anything potentially on your credit/background check that could be a visible issue down the road.

Develop these relationships now - you'll find yourself using them in a variety of ways in the future. You should also try to use your own networks to make connections and find opportunities, but recruiters can be pretty plugged in if you find the right ones to work with.

Good luck to you.
posted by peacecorn at 3:20 PM on November 4, 2007

In the past six months, my organization posted for a Director of IT, and while we said we desired a degree in Computer Science, of the five individuals we brought in for second interviews, only one had a degree, and it wasn't in CS.

We were far more interested in individuals who had the right balance of technical know-how and managerial experience.

I agree with those who have said if you can circumvent HR drones and get yourself in front of the folks who are doing the hiring, you should do it.
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 3:45 PM on November 4, 2007

As an IT drone who doesn't hire people but does get asked to help evaluate resumes and whatnot, my opinion is similar to deadmessenger's. Certs and degrees are far less important than work experience. If someone emphasizes their cert too much, I worry that that's all they've got. If they have, say, a couple years of work experience in the general field, they probably know whatever the cert would have certified anyway, and they probably know it better. OTOH, certs and degrees can help you get past the non-technical HR screening. It really depends on the company, of course.

But. If someone doesn't have a vaguely technical degree, then I want to see some other indication that they have an intellectual interest in the field. Maybe in the way they describe their work experience, or maybe they have some side projects they mention. But I've worked with people who were of the (not terribly unusual) opinion that CS-theory stuff was completely irrelevant to real-world programming, who had no clue about such basic stuff as complexity theory or data structures and who preferred not to understand. Ugh.
posted by hattifattener at 4:58 PM on November 4, 2007

a college degree in 2007 is like a high school degree in 1987.

it's pretty much a prerequisite to any company even talking to you.

That's just not accurate. First, what does, "any company," mean? There are plenty of companies who will give you an interview based on experience, knowledge, the security clearance, etc. Now, if you're just blindly sending resumes and posting to job boards and not following up and not truly selling yourself (marketing), what you say may be true. But, I assume anyone at MeFi is smarter than that. ;)
posted by Gerard Sorme at 5:01 PM on November 4, 2007

I want to thank everyone for their responses, particularly bystander's and peacock's. I would like to draw everyone's attention to Mr_Crazyhorse's input. What a stupid response. I have already mentioned that I have worked with people without degrees that seem to be doing fine. That is why the question of even getting a degree has come up. I find it particularly amusing that you would end your comment in the snarky way you did. What would I know about starting my own business if I have never worked for a company before?

Dork.
posted by Brandon1600 at 5:01 PM on November 4, 2007

Let me put it this way... I have a degree in computers - an Associate degree. The best thing it's gotten me is a PC Tech job at Best Buy (before Geek Squad came in). I have been feeling like an Associate degree is as low as having only a high school diploma. No one will talk to me without a Bachelor's. I am sorry if you feel my comment is stupid, but I hope you have better luck than I do.
posted by IndigoRain at 6:42 PM on November 4, 2007

I'm late to the thread, I know - but I want to add, one more thing to think about is where you live. I believe it's harder for people without degrees to get ahead in some areas than others. If you happen to live in an area with loads of college grads and people with advanced degrees, it's going to be harder for you to get a job because of the competition. If you live in a less competitive area, raw talent and drive are more likely to get you a job. It also depends on the field and the employer. The bottom line is you won't know until you try, and the very worst that could happen is that you find that you do have to go to college after all. (If you do get a job, and find you need a degree to advance, you might find your employer willing to help you with tuition, which is always a bonus.)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:43 PM on November 4, 2007

Degrees matter because the people doing the hiring frequently have them. If they value their own, they're likely going to value them in others.

In my experience, degrees often (not always!) matter more than experience while degree PLUS experience knocks it out of the park.
posted by codswallop at 8:32 PM on November 4, 2007

A lot of people consider good military experience equivalent to a college degree. Don't sell it short. The technology may be outdated, but so are CS skills learned a decade or more at a university.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 11:09 PM on November 4, 2007

it's not important, it just might make things easier to get in the door. if you are a good people person it doesnt matter.
posted by edtut at 1:57 AM on November 5, 2007

I've done a lot of work in IT with lots of people who are ex-military. Croutonsupafreak is right- it can open a lot of doors for you. As far as certs go, consider them icing on an already solid cake. I know people who have invested tons of time and money into getting MCSEs but then just end up on helpdesks because they have no real experience. I think the bottom line is always just experience and/or an ability to show that you can comprehend technology.
posted by zennoshinjou at 3:48 AM on November 5, 2007

Just for my 2 pence, my company - no one gets a job without a degree. Even the receptionist (no offence to the receptionist).

No we dont pay them more because of it
Yes its hard to recruit
Yes we get a better class of employee (mostly)
yes its probably idiotic in some cases.
posted by daveyt at 4:42 AM on November 5, 2007

I would like to draw everyone's attention to Mr_Crazyhorse's input. What a stupid response. I have already mentioned that I have worked with people without degrees that seem to be doing fine. That is why the question of even getting a degree has come up.

First off, calm down a bit.

You might not like his comment that having a college degree is now becoming what having a HS degree was in 1987, but it's accurate. IT positions seem to be the one major holdout on this, but in most developed economies, it's true, and I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes true in IT over time.

I find it particularly amusing that you would end your comment in the snarky way you did. What would I know about starting my own business if I have never worked for a company before? Dork.

Because experience at a task is not the same as experience in business. If you've been doing XYZ and you can do it exceptionally well, you can offer an XYZ service and bill for it without knowing jack about working in business. He didn't recommend that you start a transnational conglomerate, he suggested you start a business. It's done all the time by people who can do a single task, but who have no substantial business experience. Hell, Microsoft was started by people who had no real experience. It's not uncommon, especially by people who have in-depth experience on a single issue (academics, ex-military, etc.).
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 8:31 AM on November 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

To many, if not most, hiring managers in the IT field, six years of hands-on experience, especially in the military, trumps four years of University.

Your security clearance and actual experience is much more valuable to an employer than any certification. (Especially the MSCE and CompTIA certs. Many completely incompetent people have earned these, and everyone in IT has met/interviewed a couple of them).

Your clearance is probably most valuable in the Washington, DC area. I believe that a golden retriever with a sufficiently high clearance is employable there.

I almost wholeheartedly disagree with Mr. Crazyhorse. An undergraduate degree will open a lot of doors for someone who is 21 and just starting their career, even in IT, but it becomes increasingly less relevant once you've been in the workforce a while. To say that most companies won't bother to talk to you without one -- that's just asinine. Sure, some companies won't, some HR drones won't, but considering the demand for skilled tech workers (and these are not skills taught in school), you'll find plenty of companies that will go out of their way to talk to you.

Have you noticed any heavy discrimination between those who have degree x and those who have x years experience and training without a degree?

No. With the exception of a handful of people who like to casually brag about where they went to school, I can't say that I know who in my office (and previous ones) did or didn't have a degree (and I know quite a few people who were surprised to learn that I don't). In general, people at the places that I've worked are treated according to their abilities. But, IT work is more of a meritocracy than the typical career path.

(Disclosure: I left school after two years, and have worked at the VP level of public companies. I currently run a consulting business that most people would consider successful, and my clients are generally large public companies. I do not have an education section on my resume at all, nor was it mentioned in my management team bios. I've been asked about college exactly twice in job interviews and client pitches. When asked, I say, "I went to XYZ university to study theater production, but I've never found that relevant to my career in IT, so I don't list it.", which generally changes the subject.)
posted by toxic at 11:09 AM on November 5, 2007