Can they really make me do that?
September 7, 2007 8:46 AM
Quasi legal status filter: There are a lot of things out there that I take for granted as legal till I think about it. How can you find out what the actual legal standing of an issue is?
I am not saying that perhaps these aren't moral or whatever obligations, just perhaps not legally enforcible.
Here are a couple:
"You break it, you buy it"
"May I please see your receipt?" (especially coupled with physical restraint or intimidation if you don't show it)
"Oh barkeep, someone walked out on their tab? Its coming out of your pocket!"
"15 minute Dry Cleaning Parking Only!"(In large shared parking lot, that space is not theirs!)
Google and such provide sketchy answers on the legality even if I am a little confrontational at times. I would just like to know where the law stands.
I am not saying that perhaps these aren't moral or whatever obligations, just perhaps not legally enforcible.
Here are a couple:
"You break it, you buy it"
"May I please see your receipt?" (especially coupled with physical restraint or intimidation if you don't show it)
"Oh barkeep, someone walked out on their tab? Its coming out of your pocket!"
"15 minute Dry Cleaning Parking Only!"(In large shared parking lot, that space is not theirs!)
Google and such provide sketchy answers on the legality even if I am a little confrontational at times. I would just like to know where the law stands.
Involuntary taking of money out of employee paychecks is generally illegal. Dunno a lot more than that, since the information comes from my GF, who does legal work relating to employer / employee law.
posted by TeatimeGrommit at 9:04 AM on September 7, 2007
posted by TeatimeGrommit at 9:04 AM on September 7, 2007
"May I please see your receipt?" (especially coupled with physical restraint or intimidation if you don't show it)
I could swear there was an FPP on this one a while back, and the basic answer is no, they can't, unless they catch you in the act of shoplifting.
posted by mkultra at 9:17 AM on September 7, 2007
I could swear there was an FPP on this one a while back, and the basic answer is no, they can't, unless they catch you in the act of shoplifting.
posted by mkultra at 9:17 AM on September 7, 2007
A few thoughts on where you might start looking:
"You break it, you buy it"
Negligent damage of property. I think the sign is intended as a brief summary of the law rather than something that creates an obligation.
"May I please see your receipt?" (especially coupled with physical restraint or intimidation if you don't show it)
The shopkeeper's privilege.
"Oh barkeep, someone walked out on their tab? Its coming out of your pocket!"
State laws on payment of wages / withholding from wages?
"15 minute Dry Cleaning Parking Only!"
I would think this depends on the contract they have with the lot's owner - you might look up laws regarding signage requirements for towing cars.
If you looking for general legal research strategies, I only have a few suggestions. Most states laws are available online, and a little browsing can sometimes turn up a relevant statute. Case law for a specific jurisdiction is harder, but you can usually find general information online. You might have luck by looking up either torts or contract law, depending on what the problem is.
Don't forget that you can always hire a friendly neighborhood lawyer!
posted by Hermes32 at 9:20 AM on September 7, 2007
"You break it, you buy it"
Negligent damage of property. I think the sign is intended as a brief summary of the law rather than something that creates an obligation.
"May I please see your receipt?" (especially coupled with physical restraint or intimidation if you don't show it)
The shopkeeper's privilege.
"Oh barkeep, someone walked out on their tab? Its coming out of your pocket!"
State laws on payment of wages / withholding from wages?
"15 minute Dry Cleaning Parking Only!"
I would think this depends on the contract they have with the lot's owner - you might look up laws regarding signage requirements for towing cars.
If you looking for general legal research strategies, I only have a few suggestions. Most states laws are available online, and a little browsing can sometimes turn up a relevant statute. Case law for a specific jurisdiction is harder, but you can usually find general information online. You might have luck by looking up either torts or contract law, depending on what the problem is.
Don't forget that you can always hire a friendly neighborhood lawyer!
posted by Hermes32 at 9:20 AM on September 7, 2007
The best way to know the law is, obviously, to learn it. Take a practical law course! I find even my (Canadian) high school law class immensely helpful in day-to-day life. IANAL.
All of your specific questions involve contract law and implicit contracts. You may find this Wikipedia article helpful.
posted by Count Ziggurat at 9:27 AM on September 7, 2007
All of your specific questions involve contract law and implicit contracts. You may find this Wikipedia article helpful.
posted by Count Ziggurat at 9:27 AM on September 7, 2007
If you are a member of a club where you shop, ie Sam's Club, Costco... you may be bound to showing your receipt by the Terms of Membership.
Recept Checking Policies
posted by imjosh at 9:35 AM on September 7, 2007
Recept Checking Policies
posted by imjosh at 9:35 AM on September 7, 2007
(IANAL)
"You break it, you buy it"
My gut reaction is: "No, if I break it I pay you replacement cost." Small difference, maybe, but in many cases the store isn't losing a whole sale, they're losing a piece of inventory.
I guess it depends on whether or not you want the broken thing or not.
posted by toomuchpete at 9:38 AM on September 7, 2007
"You break it, you buy it"
My gut reaction is: "No, if I break it I pay you replacement cost." Small difference, maybe, but in many cases the store isn't losing a whole sale, they're losing a piece of inventory.
I guess it depends on whether or not you want the broken thing or not.
posted by toomuchpete at 9:38 AM on September 7, 2007
I am not a lawyer, but I'd think that the "you break it you bought it" isn't really quite as simple. It's more of a "you break it, you should pay us to avoid the small claims court where the court will tell you that you should pay us"
posted by cschneid at 9:38 AM on September 7, 2007
posted by cschneid at 9:38 AM on September 7, 2007
This ongoing receipt checking dust-up might provide a good case study on the subject. Some of the comments on sites that covered the story (bottom of page) provide various levels of legal insight.
posted by sexymofo at 9:46 AM on September 7, 2007
posted by sexymofo at 9:46 AM on September 7, 2007
"You're not allowed to take photographs in this public space!"
posted by browse at 10:03 AM on September 7, 2007
posted by browse at 10:03 AM on September 7, 2007
Shopkeeper's privilege applies only when they have a reasonable basis to suspect you of shoplifting. Routine requests to see your receipt are just that, REQUESTS. You are free to decline and they have no right to stop you. In most cases, detaining you without a reasonable basis to suspect you of shoplifting is false arrest. I never show my receipt and I find that most stores are well aware that they can do nothing. The local Best Buy gives me a cheery "Thanks, anyhow" when I tell them I will not show them my receipt. I cooperate with Costco because I explicitly agreed to let them do it, although I find it annoying.
I am only familiar with Virginia's laws, but they would prevent docking an employee's pay for things like this and I suspect that is true in most states.
posted by Lame_username at 10:26 AM on September 7, 2007
I am only familiar with Virginia's laws, but they would prevent docking an employee's pay for things like this and I suspect that is true in most states.
posted by Lame_username at 10:26 AM on September 7, 2007
The shopkeeper's privilege.
Doesn't apply here. If the shopkeeper does not suspect you of shoplifting (and refusing to show your receipt is not cause for suspicion), they can't stop you from leaving the store, unless you've agreed that they can (for instance, the membership-only warehouse stores).
So, no, they can't stop you unless they saw you put something in your pocket and attempt to walk out without paying for it.
posted by oaf at 10:38 AM on September 7, 2007
Doesn't apply here. If the shopkeeper does not suspect you of shoplifting (and refusing to show your receipt is not cause for suspicion), they can't stop you from leaving the store, unless you've agreed that they can (for instance, the membership-only warehouse stores).
So, no, they can't stop you unless they saw you put something in your pocket and attempt to walk out without paying for it.
posted by oaf at 10:38 AM on September 7, 2007
Our retail store has a "you break it, we usually ask you to pay but don't require it if you don't want to" policy. Most everyone offers to pay if it was obviously their fault, i.e. their kid smahes it, they drop it while looking at it.
If it was something like their elbow nudged it off the shelf when they were reaching for something else, our staff are trained to let it go and not ask for payment.
posted by karmaville at 11:09 AM on September 7, 2007
If it was something like their elbow nudged it off the shelf when they were reaching for something else, our staff are trained to let it go and not ask for payment.
posted by karmaville at 11:09 AM on September 7, 2007
Q: When you visit a store that has a sign that says "If you break it, you bought it," can the store actually make you pay for it?
A: We contacted the National Retail Federation for that answer. It says those signs really are a warning for consumers to be very careful. However if you break or damage an item, the shop owner cannot just demand money from you on the spot. What they can do is take you to small claims court and try to prove negligence to collect their money.
Also, parking and towing in Georgia.
posted by ND¢ at 11:27 AM on September 7, 2007
A: We contacted the National Retail Federation for that answer. It says those signs really are a warning for consumers to be very careful. However if you break or damage an item, the shop owner cannot just demand money from you on the spot. What they can do is take you to small claims court and try to prove negligence to collect their money.
Also, parking and towing in Georgia.
posted by ND¢ at 11:27 AM on September 7, 2007
Quasi legal status filter: There are a lot of things out there that I take for granted as legal till I think about it. How can you find out what the actual legal standing of an issue is?
A lawyer is asked "what is 2 + 2?" The answer: "What do you want it to be?"
posted by Brian James at 1:40 PM on September 7, 2007
A lawyer is asked "what is 2 + 2?" The answer: "What do you want it to be?"
posted by Brian James at 1:40 PM on September 7, 2007
How can you find out what the actual legal standing of an issue is?
With many legal issues, you can only expect rough guidelines because the law isn't always clear---even to lawyers. Any source that says, "No, they absolutely cannot do [x]" or "Yes, they absolutely can do [y]" should be regarded with healthy skepticism.
At the risk of stating the obvious, the law is often just a patchwork of appellate court decisions that, based on the facts of a given case, have set forth principles that have precedential value, but since each case has slightly different facts, it may be less than clear whether the precedent applies in your case. Even when there's a statute addressing the question, it may be poorly written and unclear. It often takes one brave and (fool)hardy soul to sue over, say, the parking at a dry-cleaning establishment, or a store's receipt-checking policy, to help make clear what the law is on that issue.
It's this wonderful lack of clarity about what the law that keeps lawyers employed.
posted by jayder at 1:50 PM on September 7, 2007
With many legal issues, you can only expect rough guidelines because the law isn't always clear---even to lawyers. Any source that says, "No, they absolutely cannot do [x]" or "Yes, they absolutely can do [y]" should be regarded with healthy skepticism.
At the risk of stating the obvious, the law is often just a patchwork of appellate court decisions that, based on the facts of a given case, have set forth principles that have precedential value, but since each case has slightly different facts, it may be less than clear whether the precedent applies in your case. Even when there's a statute addressing the question, it may be poorly written and unclear. It often takes one brave and (fool)hardy soul to sue over, say, the parking at a dry-cleaning establishment, or a store's receipt-checking policy, to help make clear what the law is on that issue.
It's this wonderful lack of clarity about what the law that keeps lawyers employed.
posted by jayder at 1:50 PM on September 7, 2007
If the shopkeeper does not suspect you of shoplifting (and refusing to show your receipt is not cause for suspicion), they can't stop you from leaving the store, unless you've agreed that they can (for instance, the membership-only warehouse stores).
posted by oaf at 10:38 AM on September 7
I'm pretty sure you can't sign away your rights. If that membership "contract" states that Sam's Club customers can be sold into slavery, it wouldn't stand up in court. Similarly, just because a member agreement says that they can imprison you without cause don't make it so.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:04 PM on September 7, 2007
posted by oaf at 10:38 AM on September 7
I'm pretty sure you can't sign away your rights. If that membership "contract" states that Sam's Club customers can be sold into slavery, it wouldn't stand up in court. Similarly, just because a member agreement says that they can imprison you without cause don't make it so.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:04 PM on September 7, 2007
The receipt request is not backed by law so much as by the store owner's right to deny your return to the premises in the future (if you would somehow want to shop again at a place with such asshole policy).
posted by -harlequin- at 7:36 PM on September 7, 2007
posted by -harlequin- at 7:36 PM on September 7, 2007
Optimus, they could ban you from the store (and all other stores in the chain) and then have you arrested if you came back. Or what -harlequin- said.
posted by oaf at 8:21 AM on September 8, 2007
posted by oaf at 8:21 AM on September 8, 2007
"Minimum $10 credit card charges"
I believe that this is actually against the agreement that retailers/bars have with the credit card company. They have to accept credit card sales at whatever price.
posted by pithy comment at 7:04 AM on September 10, 2007
I believe that this is actually against the agreement that retailers/bars have with the credit card company. They have to accept credit card sales at whatever price.
posted by pithy comment at 7:04 AM on September 10, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ND¢ at 9:01 AM on September 7, 2007