How to teach a 12 year old that Swastika's are not "a joke".

April 24, 2007 5:29 PM

I found a piece of paper in my 12 year old son's knapsack today, covered with drawings of swastika's, "KKK", and one word, "Osama"; and yes, he admitted to doing it.

I spoke with him, and asked him what these symbols represent to him. He just shrugged. I asked him if he knew what the Nazi's, KKK, and Osama believed in, and how they went about acheiving their goals. He was well aware of the Nazi attrocities, the death camps and so on. He also knew that the KKK didn't like black people and killed them, and he knew about 9/11.
All well and good, base knowledge.
Besides giving him a more detailed description and explanation of the horrors associated with these groups, I am at a loss at how to "get through to him" the outrage that these symbols and words cause people.
My question is: How can I best educate my 12 year old son on why the drawing of the symbols/letters/word is hateful, repulsive, and 'not funny'?

posted by BozoBurgerBonanza to society & culture (61 comments total)

What makes you think your son means to draw the symbols as a joke, BBB? Those symbols are stereotypically "evil" and maybe your son is trying to think about evil. This is merely speculation and not intended to do anything except suggest alternatives to "funny" being the intent behind the pictures. Does your son do other drawing?
posted by cgc373 at 5:42 PM on April 24, 2007

Show him Schindler's List? Mind you, that movie may be over the top for a 12 year old, what with the massive amounts of nudity (both sexual and situational). On the other hand, perhaps something shockingly over the top is what you're looking for.
posted by tiamat at 5:44 PM on April 24, 2007

I guess I mean to say, those sorts of drawings can be done in ways that are not "hateful, repulsive, and 'not funny'" because artistic impulses sometimes work independently from morality, however it's framed. If your son is doing the work in the frame of mind of "art," I think it's a different kind of work. So if he's illustrating a manual to join the KKK-Nazi-Osama SuperFriends or something, he's probably at enough distance from the symbols to appreciate them as tools, rather than using them as idols or whatever.

Am I making any sense?
posted by cgc373 at 5:47 PM on April 24, 2007

I wouldn't overreact, you're likely to have the opposite effect you intend. I think you've probably done enough, just let it go.

I used to doodle all sorts of bizarre stuff when I was 12, and I didn't turn into a neo-Nazi, terrorist, or Klansman.

You've made it clear that it's not funny, you don't need to beat it absolutely to death; if you harp on the issue he'll probably get resentful and angry, and that's the sort of feelings that do drive kids into unhealthy ideologies.

Just keep an eye out and see if there are other things at work. But if it's just an isolated incident, you've done everything that you need to.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:53 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

cgc373:
You do make sense, and have certainly given me a new "view" toward his "drawings". My son is fairly bright, and an excellant athlete, and while "artistic" and "athletic" are not always mutually exclusive; I would not consider him as "artisitic". Imagine his drawings as more of "doodling" on the back of a worksheet than a "drawing".
posted by BozoBurgerBonanza at 5:55 PM on April 24, 2007

I went through a period as a kid when I drew swastikas compulsively. It wasn't that I had failed to internalize the power of swastikas or the evilness of Nazis. I think it was the other way around: I was just beginning to grasp the enormity of that evil, and I think I was trying to convince myself that it was no big deal, because I my comprehension was a bit ahead of my ability to emotionally process things.

Instead of shocking your son with graphic images, I would talk to him about why he thinks that scary, horrifying stuff is funny. What's the joke? How does he think other people would react to seeing those symbols? How does he feel about the existence of people who hurt and kill other people for no good reason? Why is he thinking about this right now?

(I bet it's related to the Virginia Tech thing, for what it's worth, which is another reminder that some people do senseless, horrible, incomprehensible things. I imagine that's a tough thing for a 12-year-old to process.)
posted by craichead at 5:59 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Without knowing anything more about your son -- e.g., whether he is angry, rebellious, thoughtless, trying to one-up friends, etc. -- hard to say. But at least for some of those characteristics, you've done what you should, and it may make things worse to demonstrate further the power those symbols and words have to disturb. Everyone likes to have power, and the power to rattle others, independent of message, may be perceived as desirable. So if he's not actually a believer, that may be all this is about.

On that assumption, though, one thing to get across -- and you probably already have -- is that many of the people willing to traffic in those symbols REALLY BELIEVE IN THEM. That is, it's not merely a historical curiosity, or something that rattles without true content, like a swear word. Here's the point. Should others seem him doing it, they may really think he's one of those people, and hate him and his actions with a righteous fury he has never before experienced.

Better to stick with drawing choads.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:03 PM on April 24, 2007

First off, don't assume that doodling these symbols means your son is some sort of neo-nazi white-supremesist islamo-fascist. Kids tumble around with all sorts of ideas in their heads. I went through a period of doodling swastikas and gang signs on school desks. But I never thought Nazis were cool, and I was scared shitless of the neighborhood gangs and wanted nothing to do with them. Maybe I was fascinated by the power those symbols held and wanted to toy around with them. I would've been mortified if I'd been caught, so I'm not surprised your son doesn't want to talk about it.

If he's not bullying kids or torturing animals or exhibiting other anti-social behavior, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

On preview, Clyde Mnestra's 2nd paragraph is right on.
posted by hydrophonic at 6:07 PM on April 24, 2007

Symbols that hold power are really, really fascinating. I spent a lot of free time in high school making rubber stamps of the handicapped symbol, the toxic symbol, the radioactive symbol, and yes, probably a swastika too (it didn't get used much, though, I have to admit - but then most of my friends growing up were Jews; I would have been ostracized like craaazy). There's something intense about knowing that this little drawing could change the way a person's life was, could make someone think about someone else in a totally new way, etc. I went through a similar phase about the magical power of certain words. I was kind of an obsessive girl, and symbols thrilled me. It wasn't about what they meant so much as what they could do.

Alternately, maybe he's trying to freak you out. If so, mission accomplished!
posted by crinklebat at 6:20 PM on April 24, 2007

It'll be difficult for you, but try to just let him know that this stuff is really offensive and then drop it. He's 12. He's hitting puberty. He's likely conceptualizing evil and aggression, with a bonus round of pushing boundaries and testing for shock value.
posted by desuetude at 6:21 PM on April 24, 2007

If he thinks its funny or cool now, you'd be best off to beat him (errr, reprimand him) before he starts beating (ummm, reprimanding) others. Only being slightly facetious there...

He's 12 - he knows exactly what he drew and what they mean. 12 year olds like to do things they shouldn't do, due to the exotic nature of doing said things.

To be clear, I'm not saying beat your kid. I AM saying throw that whole "oh kids are angels and he's just being artistic" mindset out the window. Set him straight - bigtime. In respect to what he's toying with, I'd say you wouldn't be overreacting at all.

Counterpoint - if my suggestion just isn't your parenting style, then I'd have him give you a very clear, very concise, and very adult / HONEST explanation of what he was doing. That would at least force him to think about the significance of those symbols and words.
posted by matty at 6:24 PM on April 24, 2007

I did the same thing when I was a preteen. Not because I was anti-semetic, or racist, or anything like that. I drew/wrote things like that because I knew adults saw them as shocking. I couldnt see what all the fuss was, to me they were only words or strange symbols. I didnt go showing adults to get attention, I guess I was just testing boundries. Now, in college I can saw that I'm still seeing the same stuff scrawled on lecture hall desks, so nothing changes.

At that age I was reading war history books, into war movies and collected war figurines, I was sufficently read on the holocaust to tell you what it was... my parents dragged me through numerous european museums at the age of 7 to have seen all the photos and exhibits about the holocaust, but it wasnt until I was in my teens that I made the connection between human life/dignity and those words and symbols.

So ... your answer: Dont worry, it'll pass, he's not crazy. Yes show him some films. Maybe not schindlers list, perhaps Fateless, not as intense as Schindlers List but makes it's point in other ways.
posted by chrisbucks at 6:25 PM on April 24, 2007

I used to draw swastikas in the sand at school because I thought it was funny when an adult walked by and tried to cover them up without bringing attention to themselves. It just looked really awkward. I have yet to become a neo-nazi. I wouldn't worry too much.
posted by JackarypQQ at 6:33 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I disagree with matty. I think he is thinking about the significance of those symbols and words. He's experimenting with their power on his own in order to get a better understanding of them.

You can't just bust his balls and make him understand anything. Maybe you can bust his balls and make him stop doodling, but that's completely different.

People, as they grow up, need to wrestle with the power of evil and evil symbols in their own way. In this environment of panic, there's already so little tolerance of any curiosity about evil, but there's no way to make the curiosity go away.

You can certainly suppress individual manifestations of this curiosity, but doodling seems like a pretty harmless one.
posted by Mr. President Dr. Steve Elvis America at 6:42 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Did your son say he thinks these symbols/doodles were funny? Because a lot of the advice above seems based on the conclusion that you don't know what your son's motivations were and haven't had that "big talk" with him yet. Clearly you know something, as you questioned him about the drawings. But are you assuming the funny/attention factor, or are those his words?
posted by brina at 6:43 PM on April 24, 2007

12 years old? That's an age when kids are emerging from the shelter of childhood and trying to comprehend all the complicated, sometimes scary, ideas that the adult world is throwing at them. I think it's an age when kids start to "get it" that not everyone operates on the same moral system, and they may be fascinated by beliefs that lie outside their own comfortable moral neighborhood.

My guess is that your son is, as craichead suggests, trying to "process" his (relatively) new comprehension of the horribleness that humans are capable of perpetrating against each other. He may also be testing the power of symbols: can these letters and shapes really get adults riled? and can that power be switched off by dismissing the letters and symbols as a "joke"? (I know that at that age, I got a kick out of shocking grownups by blurting out semi-taboo utterances once in a while. The ability to switch between my customary "nice" persona and a "naughty" alter ego gave me a thrill.)

To try to answer the question: one approach would be to hold off on condemning the mental exploration/processing that he's doing, and focus on how these doodles look to other people. So, something like: "I've been thinking about the doodles that I found in your backpack. I understand that you are not seriously thinking of joining the KKK or Al Qaeda. I just wonder, do you have thoughts about what your classmates might think about you when they see you drawing this stuff?"

On preview, it looks like the "shocking the grownups" and "whoa, symbols are powerful" ground has been covered pretty thoroughly! So, yeah, what everyone else said.
posted by Orinda at 6:46 PM on April 24, 2007

Show him Schindler's List? Mind you, that movie may be over the top for a 12 year old, what with the massive amounts of nudity (both sexual and situational). On the other hand, perhaps something shockingly over the top is what you're looking for.

If you think that movie is over the top because of NUDITY, I don't know what to tell you.

That said, it might be something like this - a movie, a tangible, thought-provoking example like a movie - might be worthwhile in planting the seed of sympathy for the victims of true evil. Kids might relate to movies more than stern adult lectures, ya know?
posted by tristeza at 6:50 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Apparently my answer was deleted because it wasn't understood. Let me be more explicit this time: How can I best educate my 12 year old son on why the drawing of the symbols/letters/word is hateful, repulsive, and 'not funny'?

You've done all you can at this point. 12 year old boys are not known for their empathy. To him, "swastikas are offensive" sounds exactly like "farting is offensive". But farting is funny, so you are wrong, swastikas are awesome.

Unless he exhibits some kind of personality changes or you find dead animals in his room, I would take a deep breath and relax.

(As an aside, I find the deletion of an on-topic-but-possibly-unwelcome reply in a thread about preventing Nazism to be ironic.)
posted by DU at 6:55 PM on April 24, 2007

I'd make sure he knows that a) other people who see this type of thing coming from him are likely to not only be offended, but, especially if they don't know him well, to assume that he is racist, uneducated, closed-minded, and not worth getting to know better. These assumptions may not be wholly baseless -- they may be based on experience with other swastica-philes.

You might want to mention that *you* know he's smart enough to know better, but these have such enormously strong emotional associations for so many people, that just a glimpse of something like this can evoke a response in a lot of people. People can't help how they feel. (maybe you can think of an analogous example from his own life, maybe not)
posted by amtho at 7:11 PM on April 24, 2007

I'm assuming because you are asking this question you care a lot about your son and his well being; children can take such active interests as a bad sign. Make sure he knows that you love him and just want to see the best man he can be in ten years.
posted by zenja72 at 7:21 PM on April 24, 2007

Agreeing with most everyone that your son has not made the link between the symbolism, historic events, and the actual value of human life. Perhaps no one close to him has yet died. Perhaps he hasn't even yet lost a treasured pet. If this is the case, I don't think any amount of books or movies will drive home the point that these symbols are linked to truly painful things.

If I'm wrong, and he has lost a pet or grandparent or whomever, perhaps he can imagine that pain on a scale of thousands or millions, and connect that degree of pain to the symbols he draws. Until he can feel that on a personal level, I think his doodlings are creative expression and/or rebellion against authority.
posted by desjardins at 7:29 PM on April 24, 2007

it's so hard to even conceptualize what these things mean at age 12, i don't know if it is even possible...you definitely did the right thing by letting him know how you felt. He should definitely be informed of their meanings and the consequences they could have for him if he continues drawing these sorts of things, ie, he could probably get in a bunch of trouble at school. I'd make every effort to enrich his thinking on these subjects, but like many other posters said, don't get too into that cause he may just tune out and feel like he's getting schooled. i think it'd be wise to just monitor his feelings on these issues.
posted by Salvatorparadise at 7:31 PM on April 24, 2007

I'll join the chorus in saying that I did similar when I was that age. He may be testing boudaries. I can't speak to your parneting style, but I'm guessing that in your home and today's society there's issue with saying "fuck" at the dinner table, certainly not to the degree that there was a decade or more past. The things you say he's doodling are his way of experimenting with transgression.

Don't freak out.
I would suggest that you keep a close eye on things though. In short order the doodles of swasticas will give way to doodles of tits and dicks. If he doesn't progress past it in a few months, then worry.

But none of this answerrs your question, "How can I best educate my 12 year old son on why the drawing of the symbols/letters/word is hateful, repulsive, and 'not funny'?"
You can't. I can't imagine that a reasonably bright 12-year-old doesn't already know what the symbols represent.
posted by lekvar at 7:38 PM on April 24, 2007

Hmm. This may seem strange, but stick with me. I'd actually approach this from a very non-judgemental direction at first: "So you know what these groups are. Where did you hear about them? What else do you know about their beliefs/strategies/actions? What do they symbolize for you? Do you agree with any of them?" Then you can give him your own moral/ethical take: "Well to me they symbolize... and their actions make me think..." And then try to personalize the atrocities... "And here's what they might have meant to my great-uncle/friend, but we'll never know because he was killed in the holocaust/9-11... (or if you are lucky enough not to know anyone personally involved, try some famous person he might respect -- as an athlete maybe Jackie Robinson/the Israeli Olympic team in '72/Pat Tillman?)

I think you need to find out what he really thinks about these symbols/groups before jumping to any conclusions. Also, I heard (here on AskMe, I think) that a good way to get pre-teen/teenage boys to move beyond the shrugs and "I dunno"s is to make sure they have something in their hands to play with while you talk (rubik's cube, silly putty, magnets, etc).
posted by Rock Steady at 7:47 PM on April 24, 2007

While tasteless and inappropriate, this is not abnormal behavior from a 12 year old boy. It's kinda like when a small child tries out swear words-they don't really "get" why they are out of bounds, but they DO get that their use provokes a reaction.

I'd tell him to knock it off and find something else to draw. Then quietly just keep an eye on him to make sure this isn't more than it is.

I have an adult daughter who got in trouble in middle school for doodling what apparently was a gang symbol. She was about as likely to be in a gang as Pee Wee Herman. The school was making a big hairy deal about it. I told them to knock it off and just tell her to find something else to draw. They did, she did, and no, she didn't grow up to be a gangsta.
posted by konolia at 7:50 PM on April 24, 2007

I wouldn't tell him anything. I'd ask him. I ask him to tell me about what he knows about military history (and if he plays the same games my son plays he'd have a fair idea). I'd ask him (not the same day) what he thinks about power structures. I'd ask him what he thinks about sexism, racism, classism and every other ism I could think of.

And I would not judge what he had to say. I'd listen to his opinions, forming, uninformed, formative, and I'd ask more questions, until he knew for certain that I valued his opinion and ideas and feelings, until he knew for certain that even if I disagreed with his position, I wouldn't be telling what and how to think.

And then, maybe then, he might ask me, what do I think about these things? And if he didn't (because he's a 12 yo and all), I might ask questions that lead him to my political viewpoint, like "what if dad and me lost our jobs, what do you think should happen to our family? (maybe explain the level of financial support the government provides etc), then ask is everyone entitled to that? does everyone deserve that? If not, what about their kids... etc.

Because this is not really about violence, he's not being violent, he's thinking about violent things and it's complex. The swastika alone is not evil, just like saying fuck is not evil. The swastika has a long design history prior to Nazi Germany. And Osama for a 12 yo is a joke comprised of Flash cartoons where he's blown up repeatedly and bloodily, and called a towel head. Does he know why? He was only 7 (?) when 911 happened. How did he process all that?

so, no, i wouldn't tell him. I'd ask him. I'd open a dialogue not about his drawings but about his world view, and I'd try to show him different aspect he might not have considered.
posted by b33j at 7:52 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

It seems like everyone has had a much calmer and thoughtful response than mine (and you should listen to them not me), but it might be useful for you or your son to know that personally, it makes me almost physically sick to hear about this.

The U.S. holocaust museum has an online lesson plan for teachers, which includes a section on the seduction these images may have for students. That might be useful for you. They have videos to watch too that might be useful for him. I agree that something that creates an emotional connection might help, whether it is some kind of literature or movie.

Does he, do you, know no black people? No gay people? No Jewish people? No mentally or physically disabled? No trade unionists? No religious minorities? No Roma? No Russians? Can you find someone with a tale to tell? A veteran maybe?

Probably overkill, but then I have family still living who lost people to the KKK and in WWII.
posted by idb at 8:09 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Am I the only one who is kind of weirded out by how many people admitted to doodling swastikas and the like? Not that I think you guys are Nazis or anything, but hot damn, as a 12-year-old, if I saw that stuff on a classmate's notebook, I would have freaked. How would it make Jewish or black classmates who see that stuff feel? Yes, take it seriously. Ask him explain his actions, and alert him to the fact that what may be meaningless doodles to him are harmful and hateful words to a lot of people.
posted by emd3737 at 8:10 PM on April 24, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Perhaps he's trying to work through some profound events. 9/11 made his country unsafe, even if it isn't the US. The war brings terrible news over and over. Virginia Tech made schools unsafe, especially when you consider the Canadian media's coverage of school shooting history in our country. Montreal's not that far away. Holocaust remembrance days have been in the news. Nazi and KKK get thrown around by media pundits. That's a lot for a 12-year-old to digest. He may need help working through it -- or this doodling may be his way.

Or perhaps someone else put the idea in his head. When I was in Grade 6, our teacher asked us all to make a coat of arms or flag for art class. He gave examples of things you could include -- and one symbol was a swastika. My mother flipped out when I told her and she went to the school. I'm not sure what came of that. And I'm not sure what the teacher was thinking. The next year, I had a teacher who was actually a Holocaust denier and who was constantly asking us provocative questions that bordered on trouble.

He may also have been doodling with others. I know several boys in my Grade 7 and 8 classes drew those sorts of symbols. I think they felt powerful by putting such evil things on paper, even though they didn't have those beliefs. And some of them probably just did it to fit in.
posted by acoutu at 8:10 PM on April 24, 2007

Oh yeah, and I agree with the movie suggestions. I'd go with Schindler's List or American History X. 12 isn't that young anymore, especially if he's been watching the news.
posted by emd3737 at 8:18 PM on April 24, 2007

How would it make Jewish or black classmates who see that stuff feel?

Where I went to school, there were no Jewish or black classmates. Swastikas were what tough punkish kids drew on their books and bags as a way of hinting at their ferocity.

Maybe the OPs son has been bullied and is trying to display a "don't mess with me; I might be violent too" kind of attitude?
posted by xo at 8:18 PM on April 24, 2007

How would it make Jewish or black classmates who see that stuff feel?

I am Jewish, actually. Two of my great-grandmothers died at Auschwitz. My grandmother, who lived fifteen minutes from us and spent every Saturday afternoon at our house, lost her entire family in the Holocaust, and my grandfather, who I never met, had one surviving relative. I think my parents would have had a veritable heart attack if they'd caught me drawing swastikas. But there you go. I still did it.
posted by craichead at 8:20 PM on April 24, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'm Jewish. When I was 12 or so, I filled the back of a page with Swastikas. When my dad asked me about it, I, like your son, shrugged, and said I wanted to know what they looked like. I'm still not exactly sure why I wrote them, but I think it was mainly because I was interested in the power and meaning they held. I am now a well adjusted 26 year old. I cried the last time I visited a holocaust museum. I have never become a self hating Jew, or joined the KKK, or anything else.

To put it more simply: You're freaking out over nothing, dude. If your kid shaves his head and starts ranting about the lack of respect given to the white race, then you can freak out. Until then, a piece of paper is just a piece of paper. Throw it out and move on.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 8:29 PM on April 24, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

I think it's natural for your son to be awestruck by the scale of terror such individuals/groups are capable of. It is amazing, if you think about it, that symbols and names can have such profound power. Maybe he feels scared or unsettled by knowing that such evil is active in the world, and feels empowered and in control by drawing those things. I wouldn't be concerned unless he starts acting differently and making disturbing comments. Buy him a copy of the Diary of Anne Frank, so he can see how a girl his age processed what was happening.

Don't worry too much--using your IP address, the FBI and NSA have probably placed your son under constant surveillance.
posted by DarwinianDan at 8:34 PM on April 24, 2007

I haven't read all the comments fully but as a black woman and one who grew up in Brooklyn with neighborhoods full of Jewish friends, I'm a bit baffled by the folks who are like "Oh it'll pass." This is clearly a teachable moment and if you ignore it as some adolescent indiscretion, I think you'll regret it. Don't wait until he's 16 and becoming fascinated with handguns and other sullen teenagers.

And to piggyback onto what idb said, I think the easiest way to create a racist is to create an environment where one can thrive...meaning, you have no black/Hispanic/Asian or Jewish friends or you never interact with people of other races or cultures. You never discuss the significance of Kwanzaa or Chinese New Year or the Holocaust. Don't rely on school to do an adequate job of turning your child into a responsible, compassionate citizen of the world.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 8:44 PM on April 24, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Uh, not to minimize the larger issues, but you may find your son drawing pictures of cars or naked ladies some day as well. It won't mean he's driving or having sex.
posted by scheptech at 9:06 PM on April 24, 2007

Lots of different impulses here. FWIW:

1. I wouldn't assume that because he's a bright 12-year old he understands the significance of this, even if he's able to say a few words about each. It's worth getting across somehow, now or on another appropriate occasion.

2. Nor would I assume he is capable of sustaining attention in the kind of dialogue that beej proposes, which will in all likelihood yield either a few mumbles on his part or a discussion from your end that sounds like a high pitched whine. I think it's nice but unrealistic.

3. I share the sense of notjustfoxybrown that this needn't just be shrugged off. It might pass, but it might not, and it probably deserves attention -- just like you've given it, without overkill. I assume her point about environment is an abstract one; suffice it to say that your son may not really be racist, racists grow up in diverse environments and non-racists in non-diverse environments, and I don't think this is meant to imply that there's something flawed about your interactions with other races and cultures.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:08 PM on April 24, 2007

I understand what people are saying about not freaking out about it, and in of itself that is good advice, however, I don't think being passive about it is the answer either. The movie might be a good idea, that or finding ways to emphasize positive contributions made by people these groups debase. If the idea behind these symbols is the dehumanizing of people with particular backgrounds, empathically make those people human.

Don't freak out, but take measured steps to make such things less and less attractive. After all personally given evidence is great for the individuals it comes from, but doesn't mean much to other specific people.

Just because kids get sullen is not a reason to avoid challenge them about important issues. Find that line and walk it.
posted by edgeways at 9:49 PM on April 24, 2007

Thanks, Clyde, for the attempt at clarification for me. Perhaps never interacting with people of other races will not create a racist. I went to undergrad in the Midwest and met wonderfully kind and open-minded people who had never met a black person until I and other classmates came along. But they were often mistaken for racists by virtue of statements made out of ignorance and I can tell you that people of my own culture and others get really tired of proctoring "black people 101" every day. I don't know the poster personally so I can't speak to her level/propriety of interaction with other cultures. I'm just saying that interacting with other cultures helps.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 10:08 PM on April 24, 2007

There's a very nice suggestion at that Holocaust museum lesson page linked above:
Rather than highlight the trappings of Nazi power, you should ask your students to evaluate how such elements are used by governments (including our own) to build, protect, and mobilize a society.

That's genius, because some of the allure of these symbols for young teens is the "I'm a badass" feeling of power, or the "I'm misunderstood, and I know about forbidden things" aura that they have. But by emphasizing how the symbols were used to brainwash people and take away their individuality you can maybe undercut some of that allure. These symbols aren't the symbols of a free thinking badass who is fighting back against conventional society. They're the symbols of a brainwashed, stupid, follower. (No alluring power there; try to make it as lame as following the latest boy band.)

(You could get a little Marxist here, and explain how the people in power often have an interest in creating artificial "in" groups and "out" groups and pitting them against each other -- and how the only way to defeat this, and take power for yourself, is to resist that kind of thinking.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:32 PM on April 24, 2007

My suggestion is that you talk to him about what the KKK does and believes and how it works to achieve its goals (violence, intimidation, etc). Have a conversation with him that allows him to talk about if he does/why he does feel like those things are ok, or if he's even aware of the connection. A basic overview of race/ethnicity issues in North America would be appropriate at 12, and I wish I had gotten it then.

You can skip the long anecdote below, but it speaks to my credibility in the matter.


I had a crush on a guy in middle school. We had our "gifted and talented" classes together. We made conversation because we sat next to each other in some classes. He was very very smart, and very good at conversation. He asked me one day what I thought about the KKK. I was twelve. A well read twelve, but still twelve. This is what I knew about the KKK when I was twelve. Wait for it. This is really embarassing.

"They wear funny costumes and they burn shit, sounds like fun," I told him.

His face fell. He said something to the effect of, "They burn crosses and throw bricks to scare me and my family."

My pride, it prevented me from admitting my ignorance. I burned with shame. He probably still talked to me, but he surely thought I was an ass at best and a danger at worst. I just... hadn't connected those things at 12, even though my dad was probably one of the biggest racists I've ever met, up to and including hating Italians and Jews. Maybe Jonas Merrill has forgotten my idiocy circa 1993, but I remember it often.
posted by bilabial at 10:59 PM on April 24, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

If you want to be sure he Won't Draw Those In School anymore - aside from whatever of the many good educational interventions suggested here - offer him some tactical advice: just tell him that that crap will land him in the school psychologist's office with a lengthy note on his permanent record.

This is not to say kids are politically sensitive - they're just evil, and such a drawing would open up a vulnerability in your child that they might attack.

Furthermore, kids rat each other out for nonconformist drawings.
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:32 AM on April 25, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

oops.. switch the order of last two sentences for above post to make sense.
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:33 AM on April 25, 2007

Kids draw swastikas for the same reason they draw penises - reaction, a sense of being able to create the 'forbidden' with nothing more than your pencil and some paper. Power. Reaction. That's all.
posted by reklaw at 4:20 AM on April 25, 2007

I don't know how your school district would react to seeing those symbols on his papers, but I have to agree with By The Grace of God - that stuff may land him in SERIOUS trouble. School violence is so high on the radar these days that even saying something casually on the playground will land you in the Principal's office and in suspension. That in itself is enough to sit your son down and have a very serious talk about how others see us and how we can send the wrong signals and get into trouble.

That aside, I think that this is a perfect opportunity for your son to understand your values- if you shrug this off, he will think that it's okay to casually write symbols of hate. Would you have felt different, or reacted differently if he had scrawled these symbols on the school wall? That's my point.

I would not freak out here - I would sit him down and tell him very seriously how wrong it is to casually invoke those symbols, and tell him why. With the summer break coming, I would then make it a point to visit a Holocaust memorial, or some other museum that illustrates very well the destruction and horror these symbols have wrought. If your town library ever hosts a Holocaust survivor, go with him and listen. This is a teaching moment - don't let it go.
posted by Flakypastry at 5:03 AM on April 25, 2007

My thing at that age was upsidedown crosses and pentagrams, and look at me now.

PRAISE HAIL SATAN.

Just kidding.
posted by The Straightener at 5:07 AM on April 25, 2007

I guess you might want to talk to him and find out the context in which he drew the figures. Did he do it because he is studying hate groups to understand what is driving their hatred or did he do because he thinks the ideals they stand for are "kewl"? If it's the latter then you better start teaching him about the effects of hatred. Not to mention teaching him how many people in authority will view his illustrations in a negative light. In many cases, especially in public schools, making these drawings will get him suspended. It will also make him the laughing stock of the majority of normal school kids.

It is definitely not a good idea for kids his age to be left to their own devices as a loner filled with any type of hatred. You are going to have to seriously drop any hands off attitude and become more actively involved in your sons free time. If possible try to volunteer your and his time in doing some work with minorities. Opening up a feeling of compassion may override feelings of hatred.
posted by JJ86 at 5:56 AM on April 25, 2007

I'd be worried a guidance counselor, determined to catch the misfits before they turn into criminals, would make a big deal over it, but I don't think there's much you can do other than explain to him that some people take those symbols seriously and he doesn't want to be thought of as one of those people. Certainly don't make a big deal over it, though.


The Straightener: "My thing at that age was upsidedown crosses and pentagrams, and look at me now."

Straightened out, did you?
posted by Mr. Gunn at 6:27 AM on April 25, 2007

How can I best educate my 12 year old son on why the drawing of the symbols/letters/word is hateful, repulsive, and 'not funny'?

He's already aware of this. Otherwise, it would have been swastikas paired with random items such as daisies and little puppy dogs. Swastikas, the KKK, and "Osama" all together suggest that a piece of paper was used to experiment with symbols of hatred.

I am glad that your son is thinking about these things, and really investigating their meaning. They are out there, hateful as they are; so therefore reasonable people should be thinking about them and talking about them, hopefully in a reasonable way. Forbidding expression of ideas certainly will never destroy those ideas and so I think that is a bad idea.

I think the next best step would be, not to talk to your son, but to listen to him. I would start the conversation by asking "What do these symbols mean to you?" Then I would shut my own mouth and do my best to listen to what the kid has to say. In my experience, I'd say that you're most likely to learn that his feelings about Nazis are similar to yours and mine. You may also discover that he has some uncertainty about certain issues or facts; he may even decide to consult your opinion about these, which can be an opportunity for gentle guidance.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:47 AM on April 25, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

My guess is his friends are also doing this and that his drawings may be a result of some sort of peer pressure.

Not nearly as dark, but I remember trying to draw the logos of popular metal bands when I was in junior high on my book covers and notebooks, etc. I didn't even like these bands, but that was what my peers were doing with their notebooks, and I wanted my books to look "cool" too.

I think you have done the right things, but perhaps you also need to show him examples in the media of children being suspended and expelled for the actions he is doing.
posted by terrapin at 6:56 AM on April 25, 2007

All the touchy-feely good-parenting stuff aside, if I was in your house and saw that paper, I would most likely never associate with you or your son again. 12 years old is plenty old enough to be simply and directly disciplined. Talking to him and helping him understand is great, but sometimes you have to start by being strict and saying "this is unacceptable".

To the analogy about farting and swatikas - if at 12 years old, your son cannot grasp the difference between a bodily function and the genocide of millions (or is amused by the latter), you should both get some help, fast.
posted by ljshapiro at 7:42 AM on April 25, 2007

This is clearly a teachable moment

There are certainly complex issues at hand. The first one that springs to my mind is "why is a swastika offensive?" (I ask this as a Jew whose family was deeply affected by the Holocaust.) My question is philosophical, not historical. I'm not asking why the Holocaust is offensive; I'm asking why a specific pattern of lines is offensive. If your answer is, "because those lines represent blah blah blah..." you need to answer what it means for lines to represent something.

Too much intellectual masturbation for a 12-year-old? Well, when I was twelve, these were exactly the sorts of questions that were on my mind (though I don't how well I could have vocalized them). Grownups told me that such-and-such was offensive (or "good for me" or "important"), but they rarely said why. Even then, I suspected that they didn't say why because they hadn't really thought about it. They had just accepted some piece of conventional wisdom: the Holocaust was a great evil; the swastika is a symbol of the Holocaust; therefore the swastika is evil.

I'm not opposed to this conventional wisdom. The older I get, the more willing I am to go with the flow. But I also see that I'm engaging in a sort of shorthand that makes life easier to live (don't question every little thing ...), and I can't blame someone else -- particularly a young person -- for taking a different path.

Here are some specific questions that occurred to my 12-year-old mind:

-- When people say the swastika is bad, do they mean that if I draw one, some tangibly bad thing will happen (besides someone getting upset)? In other words, can drawn symbols have magic powers? Some kids might actually believe this. I never did. But it sure SEEMED like many adults did -- or at least that they wanted me to believe it.

-- If swastikas aren't magic, is the main problem caused by drawing them the fact that they upset people? Okay, so then is it okay if I draw them in the privacy of my own room? If not, why? Also, does this mean that I should never engage in any expressions that offend people? If someone tells me that smiley faces offends him, do I need to stop drawing them? What if someone is offended by abortion, atheism (or whatever -- fill in the blank with whatever you believe in but others find evil). Do I need to stop talking about it?

-- Why are people offended by swastikas? Given that the Holocaust was horrible, what is the connection between a symbol and a historical event? How do the two things hook together? Magically or via connections in the brain? All brains or just the majority of brains. If my brain doesn't hold the same connections, am I bad? Am I bad even if I think the Holocaust is a horrible horrible thing but don't feel the same way about the common symbol for it?

[Incidentally, that describes me. For whatever reason, I've always had a hard time emotionally connecting to symbols. I have very strong feelings about America, but the American flag means nothing to me. I feel the same way about the Holocaust and the swastika. I am positive that I feel as strongly about the Holocaust as most people. But not about the common symbol for it. Here are the lessons I've learned (as an adult) about this:

1. I'm not a bad person. The important thing is that I recognize the evil of the historical event. It's not important (it says nothing about my character) that I don't emote over the symbol.

2. But I'm eccentric this way. I need to understand that most people (effortlessly) use symbols as as stand-ins for larger, more complex objects or events. Since this is true -- since for most people the swastika IS the holocaust -- THEY WILL MISUNDERSTAND ME IF I TREAT THE SYMBOL DIFFERENTLY THAN THEY DO. They will assume I don't care about the Holocaust. And I can't really blame them. It's a reasonable -- though wrong -- assumption.

If I try to explain the distinction, it will sound (to most people) like splitting hairs: like I'm being intellectually arrogant (I'm not affected by the mundane symbols that get to other people) or like I'm covering for something (my secret anti-antisemitism).

It's probably not worth trying to explain all this. There are more important fights to fight. As an adult, I've learned how to act. When someone gets upset about a symbol, I translate it -- in my mind -- to the event or thing it symbolizes. (I do the same thing the upset-person does, but I do it "mechanically" while he does it unconsciously.) That gives us common ground.

I wish a grownup had explained this too me instead of just telling me I was bad because I didn't stand for the flag or whatever.

Your kid is probably not as eccentric as me, but it's important to remember that symbols are rarely instantly potent. You care about swastikas (as opposed to what they represent) because you've had years and years worth of mental linkages between them and the Holocaust. Your son hasn't. He may be able to perfectly understand -- and be horrified by -- the idea of people being gassed, but he may be unable to connect the swastika to this horrific idea.]

These questions are complicated, and it's no surprised that when kids ask about why swastikas are bad, grownups tend to give off-the-cuff replies: "because they symbolize the Holocaust" or "they just ARE!" Kids get used to getting these sorts of non-answers from grownups, and they tune them out. Kids are built to try to understand the world and these sorts of answers don't help them do so.

Here are a few things worth remembering:

-- it's VERY hard for two people to discuss a symbol when it has deep meaning for only one of the people. It's going to be tough for you to treat your son fairly, because to you swastika = Holocaust. So to you, your son is drawing pictures of people being murdered. It's natural for you to feel this way, but keep this in mind.

-- 12-year-olds DO understand the concept of hurting someone's feelings. They understand this very profoundly and directly, because they have had their feelings hurt. If your son is KNOWINGLY drawing swastikas to hurt someone's feelings (or even if this is not his intent, but if he knows this is a probable outcome), he knows he is doing wrong. He is being a bully, and you need to deal with it. I strongly suggest that you separate this issue from the specifics of the Holocaust. (Don't ignore those specifics; deal with them separately.)

The key to THIS issue is "my son is doing X when he knows that X hurts people." It is NOT "my son is drawing swastikas when he knows how horrible the Holocaust is!"

-- If you discuss these issues with him, and if you yourself struggle (or are confused by) any of the philosophical issues I raised above, admit to your confusion.

-- Everyone needs a history lesson about the Holocaust (and the KKK). This is more conventional wisdom, and I agree with this. But why is it true? Because if we don't remember the future, we're doomed to repeat it? Maybe, but this is pretty abstract to a 12-year-old (and even to me, sometimes). How am I personally going to repeat the Holocaust. Now that I've watched "Schindler's List" and read 25 Holocaust books, how am I going to not repeat the Holocaust? Is history important because we owe some sort of dept to the dead? How can that be? They're dead.

I love history and find it deeply important and meaningful, but without spouting platitudes, I find it hard to say why. If it were my son, I'd admit that one's relationship with history is complicated and a bit mysterious. It's something I work out and re-work out over and over, throughout life.

This is clearly a teachable moment

I cringe a little when I read that. I remember childhood as being filled with "teachable moments." Generally, these were moments when a grownup made me stop doing whatever I wanted to do and lectured me, forced me to read a book, dragged me to a museum or do something else that was "good for me." Sometimes a "teachable moment" meant spoiling something I loved. It meant that instead of listening to my favorite song, I had to listen to a lecture about its message.

I'm not opposed to teaching children. I'm opposed to "teachable moments" because they (generally) DO NOT WORK. I say this as a former child and as someone who spent years as a teacher: forcing is the worst way of teaching. It leads to resentment, not learning.

Astoundingly, many grownups pat them selves on the back for delivering "teachable moments." They lecture they kid and then give themselves a gold star for doing their duty and utilizing a "teachable moment." I guess if the point of such moments is to gratify the adult, then they work. But if the point is to truly teach the child, they don't.

The best way to teach is to create an environment conducive to learning. Buy Holocaust books and DVDs. Keep them accessible. Watch and read them yourself. But don't force-feed them. Maybe your kid -- if he's not being pressured -- will come to them himself (if they are available and interesting). Maybe he won't. That's just a risk. There's always a risk that a person won't learn what we want him to learn. And that risk makes us panic and start forcing. Alas, there's no guarantee that a kid will learn, but forcing is close to a guarantee that he won't. (Or that he'll pretend to learn just to shut you up and get back to his video games.)

This is a tough subject. I wish you and your son the best of luck!
posted by grumblebee at 7:42 AM on April 25, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]

Very enlightening discussion by everyone. The only point I'd be very inclined to take issue with is this: "I am glad that your son is thinking about these things, and really investigating their meaning. They are out there, hateful as they are; so therefore reasonable people should be thinking about them and talking about them, hopefully in a reasonable way. Forbidding expression of ideas certainly will never destroy those ideas and so I think that is a bad idea."

I don't think his sketching necessarily evidences any important skein of thought or investigation. And I think there are lots of ways to think about this or investigate it without doodling in a way that could have significant repercussions. Nor is forbidding the same thing as teaching kids to understand the significance of various forms of expression and, optimally, to avoid some.

But it happened, in any event.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:13 AM on April 25, 2007

ljshapiro - To the analogy about farting and swatikas - if at 12 years old, your son cannot grasp the difference between a bodily function and the genocide of millions (or is amused by the latter), you should both get some help, fast.

You expect a 12-year old to be fully cognizant about genocide? How many 12-years have you been around lately? At what age do you take away childhood innocence and start discussing graphic details about murder, genocide, rape, torture, etc?

As many others have said - he is/was most likely experimenting with the concepts and symbols of evil - especially with the combination of those images. If it were page after page of just swatstikas or KKK or Osama/911 - then certainly, there could be an obsession growing.

Let's see - I drew them too, I drew pentagrams as well (at the time my family were heavy-handed, bible-thumping pentacostal xtians) - heavy metal band symbols as others have mentioned (got into trouble for a Twisted Sister logo on my binder at school), became fascinated with World War II & the Nazi's, eventually saw a documentary on the death camps and my fascination died promptly.

One of the things that changed for me - was getting into role-playing games (D&D, Cyberpunk, etc) - I channelled my art into drawing maps, monsters, cities and mazes - as well as painting miniatures. I started learning about symbolism and different religious views at about 16/17 - I wouldn't have understood their ramifications any earlier.

Where I grew up there was little or no racial diversity (small town, western Canada) - heck, I think I met my first asian person in high-school. No blacks, no Jewish people (to my knowledge - it's not like they would have been identifiable), and I think on the diversity scale I turned out ok (my wife is from Antigua originally - you do the math)

My daughter is now 8 - and I certainly don't want her to have to understand the details of genocide when she is 12.

As it is she already has a sad understanding of racial issues and she is only slightly mocha. Hell - I think I was ignorant of racism in Canada until I met my wife (24) - I believed in the myth that we didn't have it here...

Just stay involved, keep an eye on him - be interested and he will turn out to be ok.
posted by jkaczor at 10:02 AM on April 25, 2007

Of course - there is a caveat. Today's schools, especially in the US are less tolerant of any kind of negative imagery, thoughts and/or writing. I've heard of students getting into trouble for writing a short story where one character punches another.

So - if he continues to draw controversial subjects and a teacher, or fellow student takes issue with it - expect trouble. Suspension and even potentially police visits, etc.
posted by jkaczor at 10:11 AM on April 25, 2007

ljshapiro - To the analogy about farting and swatikas - if at 12 years old, your son cannot grasp the difference between a bodily function and the genocide of millions (or is amused by the latter), you should both get some help, fast.

You expect a 12-year old to be fully cognizant about genocide? How many 12-years have you been around lately? At what age do you take away childhood innocence and start discussing graphic details about murder, genocide, rape, torture, etc?

jkaczor, it feels like you've misunderstood me. I never advocated graphic descriptions of genocide to a child. One can explain hte idea of genocide without being graphic about it.

There is a huge amount of information in the popular culture about WWII and Nazis. The History Channel has practically built a network on the subject. One does not have to be "fully cognizant about genocide" or even graphic at all to impart the information that millions were killed by a nation which worshipped this particular symbol. I'm around quite a few 12 year olds, and they know and understand the basic information about the subject. One does not have to be graphic to teach a child about genocide.

FYI, I have known about this subject since I was 5 years old. At 12, I was already interested in human rights, and I have been a human rights advocate for my entire teen and adult life. Understanding these things early, (without nightmarish graphic description), was some of the best parenting I received.
posted by ljshapiro at 11:47 AM on April 25, 2007

I'm not quite ready to jump on the "meh, kids do stuff" bandwagon, but I do suggest that whatever action you take, you keep it in the realm of discussion and not involve any Teaching Materials.

If I'm your kid, and as a result of something I drew in my notebook I have to watch a horrendous Edward Norton movie or have dinner with Elie Weisel or whatever, I'll learn something, all right. I'll learn to become very good at hiding my notebooks from you in the future.
posted by staggernation at 12:37 PM on April 25, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

You might ask him now he would feel if his black or Jewish friend saw him draw those symbols and how he thinks it would make them feel.
posted by Carbolic at 2:03 PM on April 25, 2007

jkaczor -- the fact that 12-year-olds aren't adequately aware of some of the atrocities committed by human beings is a huge part of the problem. I'm still reeling from some of the responses here.

I'm guessing it's mostly non-ethnic whites here who had the luxury of arriving into young adulthood without learning about the ugliness of some human beings. I was seven the first time some white kids called me a "nigger" (playing stickball in a friend's backyard, early July 1977) and by 12, I was fully aware of the significance of a swastika.

I think what the OP needs to do is to be a parent. My parents certainly were not perfect ... far, far from it ... but they weren't afraid of me either and they understood that they were the grownups and I was the child.

There were rules in our house, there were values we held dear. There were expectations of how I was to treat other human beings.

"Teachable moments" may conjure up time at the dinner time sitting silently and uncomfortably but they were still valuable.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 3:23 PM on April 25, 2007

I agree with the people who are shocked that a 12 year old doesn't already understand the horrors of Nazism. When I was 10 my 5th grade teacher showed us a documentary in which a survivor of the holocaust talked about his experiences. It was very graphic and wasn't dumbed-down for kids. I was only 10 but I understood everything and would have never played around with drawing swastikas, and in school no less.
posted by koshka at 9:39 PM on April 25, 2007

FWIW, I think very few adults are adequately aware of the atrocities committed by human beings, and very few kids are fully aware of the significance of the symbols in question. And I would register skepticism that a documentary showed in 5th grade was sufficient to communicate the horrors of Nazism, though it probably would be sufficient to deter most cavalier uses of these symbols.

In any case, the basic problem is that kids can grasp these things abstractly, but some will fail to abide by the seemingly simple rules that emerge -- just like virtually every kid grasps that homicide is a bad thing, but some will joke about busting a cap in one of their peers or a teacher; they will speak with genuine conviction about the need to treat gays and lesbians with respect, but they will insult one another with the F word; they will learn that the N word is also forbidden and has caused enormous pain, but they will toss it around and commit it to music. Some fail because they don't grasp the horror, but others fail because they behave inconsistently -- like this is unprecedented? -- or get a thrill out of breaching rules that others get a thrill out of observing, etc.

We don't know what this kid knows or doesn't know, or what his motivation was, and what we have here is a parent who is already doing the job and just trying to do a little better. Why doesn't everyone focus on the ways the kid can be taught, instead of saying "the horror, the horror" about the horror?
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 1:02 PM on April 26, 2007