Do many Muslim men have foot fetishes?
January 12, 2007 9:52 AM Subscribe
The Burquini thread got me to thinking about fetishes among Muslims. There is
This thread makes me ponder the visual sexual stimulation of a typical Muslim man. Specifically, the women typically have their whole bodies covered, but sandals are usually the norm. Would this tend to make Muslim men develop foot fetishes at higher than the normal (whatever that is) rate, since that's practically all they have to work with; or would it do the opposite, desexualing it due to it being practically all you can see and ubiquitous? Like perhaps noses or foreheads to most western men, carrying no or very little sexual connotation.
Is the foot forbidden or otherwise "unclean" in a religious sense in Islam?
This thread makes me ponder the visual sexual stimulation of a typical Muslim man. Specifically, the women typically have their whole bodies covered, but sandals are usually the norm. Would this tend to make Muslim men develop foot fetishes at higher than the normal (whatever that is) rate, since that's practically all they have to work with; or would it do the opposite, desexualing it due to it being practically all you can see and ubiquitous? Like perhaps noses or foreheads to most western men, carrying no or very little sexual connotation.
Is the foot forbidden or otherwise "unclean" in a religious sense in Islam?
All that junk comes off inside peoples homes, so it's not like Muslim men in very orthodox countries never see women.
"The women typically have their whole bodies covered", is not true for most Muslim countries.
posted by chunking express at 10:58 AM on January 12, 2007
"The women typically have their whole bodies covered", is not true for most Muslim countries.
posted by chunking express at 10:58 AM on January 12, 2007
Until late 2002 there was a lingere shopon Whitechapel in London across from The Royal Hospital. It seemed that every time I passed by on my way to The Tube, a burqa clad young woman was entering or leaving.
The store naturally had show windows and some of the stuff sold made Parisian lingerie shops look downright pedestrian by comparison. I thought this a very natural way for them to express their femininity within the constraints of their religion; very, very conservative outer clothing that was socially acceptable in their community, and underneath totally over the top tarty.
posted by Mutant at 11:19 AM on January 12, 2007
The store naturally had show windows and some of the stuff sold made Parisian lingerie shops look downright pedestrian by comparison. I thought this a very natural way for them to express their femininity within the constraints of their religion; very, very conservative outer clothing that was socially acceptable in their community, and underneath totally over the top tarty.
posted by Mutant at 11:19 AM on January 12, 2007
"The women typically have their whole bodies covered", is not true for most Muslim countries.
And for most Muslims in non-Muslim countries.
posted by pleeker at 11:22 AM on January 12, 2007
And for most Muslims in non-Muslim countries.
posted by pleeker at 11:22 AM on January 12, 2007
I think you're making some really enormous and sort of offensive assumptions about who can be considered to be a "typical Muslim man" and what women of Islam "typically" wear.
Your comment on the thread you linked to was "Absurd", which doesn't exactly sound bias-free on the issue of Islamic modest dress. Does this question really spring from genuine curiosity, or from a desire to explain how totally lame it is that not everyone dresses exactly like you?
Showing the bottom of your foot is insulting, but I'm not sure if that's mostly (localized?) cultural tradition, or if it's something mentioned more explicitly in the Koran.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 11:23 AM on January 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Your comment on the thread you linked to was "Absurd", which doesn't exactly sound bias-free on the issue of Islamic modest dress. Does this question really spring from genuine curiosity, or from a desire to explain how totally lame it is that not everyone dresses exactly like you?
Showing the bottom of your foot is insulting, but I'm not sure if that's mostly (localized?) cultural tradition, or if it's something mentioned more explicitly in the Koran.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 11:23 AM on January 12, 2007 [2 favorites]
Best answer: SOOOO funny you say this.
In islamic countries as a sign of respect it's best to keep both feet on the floor when sitting & not cross your legs (especially not with an ankle over the knee). They do consider the foot unclean, so it's considered offensive to show the bottom of your feet to face or point at another person. If you look at a lot of ancient art, men always put their enemies under their feet as a sign of power and disrespect. There are a lot of footstools of kings with their rivals on them. Also that's one reason that in Iraq, people hit Saddam's statue with the soles of their shoes.
Anyhow, so knowing that... I was in Egypt in May and I broke my foot on THE THIRD DAY. (Yes, it sucked.) Due to my injury I had to have my swollen foot wrapped and propped up on the seat in front of me, especially when driving. I apologized for any rudeness and explained to my guides, drivers, etc., and they were all VERY understanding. Actually, a little TOO understanding. My tourguide in Luxor DID NOT STOP staring at my foot. He kept muttering about it the whole day. At first it was cute but then he got annoying & started trying to hold my hand & saying he wished for a "love kiss." (He didn't get one.) Also, my (male) friend in Cairo was traveling around with me quite a bit and as we were driving he found the need to cradle my foot with his hands, which was actually very sweet. He kept saying, "Beautiful foot. Poor, injured, beautiful foot."
Seemed to me that they get so few chances to just stare at a woman's bare foot for hours on end that it was very special to them... it was like a curiosity of sorts almost.
posted by miss lynnster at 11:31 AM on January 12, 2007
In islamic countries as a sign of respect it's best to keep both feet on the floor when sitting & not cross your legs (especially not with an ankle over the knee). They do consider the foot unclean, so it's considered offensive to show the bottom of your feet to face or point at another person. If you look at a lot of ancient art, men always put their enemies under their feet as a sign of power and disrespect. There are a lot of footstools of kings with their rivals on them. Also that's one reason that in Iraq, people hit Saddam's statue with the soles of their shoes.
Anyhow, so knowing that... I was in Egypt in May and I broke my foot on THE THIRD DAY. (Yes, it sucked.) Due to my injury I had to have my swollen foot wrapped and propped up on the seat in front of me, especially when driving. I apologized for any rudeness and explained to my guides, drivers, etc., and they were all VERY understanding. Actually, a little TOO understanding. My tourguide in Luxor DID NOT STOP staring at my foot. He kept muttering about it the whole day. At first it was cute but then he got annoying & started trying to hold my hand & saying he wished for a "love kiss." (He didn't get one.) Also, my (male) friend in Cairo was traveling around with me quite a bit and as we were driving he found the need to cradle my foot with his hands, which was actually very sweet. He kept saying, "Beautiful foot. Poor, injured, beautiful foot."
Seemed to me that they get so few chances to just stare at a woman's bare foot for hours on end that it was very special to them... it was like a curiosity of sorts almost.
posted by miss lynnster at 11:31 AM on January 12, 2007
Ok, by the way, obviously I wasn't the person driving when my foot was propped up. I worded that wrong...
posted by miss lynnster at 11:33 AM on January 12, 2007
posted by miss lynnster at 11:33 AM on January 12, 2007
Response by poster: I thought it would be abundantly clear I am speaking of areas/regions/places/locales where this is the typical mode of dress. I apologize if that was confusing.
To me it seemed obvious I wasn't speaking of Muslim men in say New York City where they are exposed to all manner of dress on a daily basis. Please give me a tiny bit of credit for knowing how the world works, and that there exist Muslims other places than the rural areas of Afghanistan.
thehmsbeagle: don't assume malice where there is none. I think the incredible gymnastics of trying to manufacture swimwear to try to meet these oppressive (yes, oppressive, because they don't apply to men) rules/laws IS absurd. The logic of this is tortuous at best, and doesn't mean I harbor any special acrimony towards Islam. I dislike ALL religious edicts equally.
However this question is brought by genuine curiosity.
miss lynnster: your story is precisely what I'm curious about. I did know about the sole-of-the-foot thing, and the throwing shoes. However, I didn't know if that was just a male activity. I honestly did not know if a woman showing her sole was considered disrespectful in the same fashion. It doesn't seem to be as viscious as I've always been led to believe, as it seems your escorts got over it fairly quickly.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:04 PM on January 12, 2007
To me it seemed obvious I wasn't speaking of Muslim men in say New York City where they are exposed to all manner of dress on a daily basis. Please give me a tiny bit of credit for knowing how the world works, and that there exist Muslims other places than the rural areas of Afghanistan.
thehmsbeagle: don't assume malice where there is none. I think the incredible gymnastics of trying to manufacture swimwear to try to meet these oppressive (yes, oppressive, because they don't apply to men) rules/laws IS absurd. The logic of this is tortuous at best, and doesn't mean I harbor any special acrimony towards Islam. I dislike ALL religious edicts equally.
However this question is brought by genuine curiosity.
miss lynnster: your story is precisely what I'm curious about. I did know about the sole-of-the-foot thing, and the throwing shoes. However, I didn't know if that was just a male activity. I honestly did not know if a woman showing her sole was considered disrespectful in the same fashion. It doesn't seem to be as viscious as I've always been led to believe, as it seems your escorts got over it fairly quickly.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:04 PM on January 12, 2007
Why wouldn't people get over it quickly when it's explained as the result of a visible injury? It's a social code, not an instinct!
This thread is making me wonder about the typical weirdo fetishes of a typical Christian man. I mean, the women typically have their calves and necks revealed... would this tend to make Christian men foam at the mouth?
I understand it isn't viscious in intention, but I just don't think there's a useful answer to questions like this.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:22 PM on January 12, 2007
This thread is making me wonder about the typical weirdo fetishes of a typical Christian man. I mean, the women typically have their calves and necks revealed... would this tend to make Christian men foam at the mouth?
I understand it isn't viscious in intention, but I just don't think there's a useful answer to questions like this.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:22 PM on January 12, 2007
Well Google Trends shows some Muslim large popularity for sexy feet, sexy toes, and plain sexy. But Muslims don't seem to stand out for ankles, or sexy hair.
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 12:27 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 12:27 PM on January 12, 2007
Best answer: Also you should see sexy feet by region.
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 12:30 PM on January 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 12:30 PM on January 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
I don't have time to leave 50 comments sorting out the many wrong assumptions, vaguely insulting stereotypes and outright falsehoods, but I think one can pretty much disregard any of the statements that anyone here blanketly connects to "Islamic countries" or "Muslims" in general. I'm Muslim and from a Muslim country, and crossing legs (men or women) is perfectly common and fine - considered appropriate for women, when sitting, in fact. In my country, feet are not considered any dirtier than they are in America. One wouldn't pass food with them, but to expose your soles is devoid of any cultural meaning. Middle Eastern / Arab culture is not the same as "Muslim" culture, which is as pointless a concept as "Christian" culture when one starts discussing things like bathing suits.
I know many (non-Muslim) women who would enjoy being able to go to the pool or beach dressed in bathing wear that isn't so sexually-oriented. I like a bikini myself, but many (probably most) women aren't really built for them. And in places like Australia, many of the women dressed for Islam do so entirely by choice, so it can be viewed as not really oppression, but an *expansion* of choice to be able to choose more conservative swimsuits. Yay for that! (In Malibu, you'd be pointed at and laughed at.) Because of aspects of the beauty culture in "the West," we've all seen sadly overweight girls who feel they *need* to wear short t's which expose very fat bellies (and so on) . . . and many people throughout the world also see these expectations as demeaning to women and thus in a sense oppressive - because they are. The most oppressive thing is not to have a choice, either by religious edict or the dour weight of cultural expectation.
I'm Western-minded, and while there are terribly oppressive countries where the population is mostly Muslim, that oppression is due more to cultural mores than religion (though through time, the two become intertwined.) In other predominately Muslim countries, women can and do enjoy freedoms unknown to women in the West - like going to the beach if you're 40K overweight!
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:33 PM on January 12, 2007 [5 favorites]
I know many (non-Muslim) women who would enjoy being able to go to the pool or beach dressed in bathing wear that isn't so sexually-oriented. I like a bikini myself, but many (probably most) women aren't really built for them. And in places like Australia, many of the women dressed for Islam do so entirely by choice, so it can be viewed as not really oppression, but an *expansion* of choice to be able to choose more conservative swimsuits. Yay for that! (In Malibu, you'd be pointed at and laughed at.) Because of aspects of the beauty culture in "the West," we've all seen sadly overweight girls who feel they *need* to wear short t's which expose very fat bellies (and so on) . . . and many people throughout the world also see these expectations as demeaning to women and thus in a sense oppressive - because they are. The most oppressive thing is not to have a choice, either by religious edict or the dour weight of cultural expectation.
I'm Western-minded, and while there are terribly oppressive countries where the population is mostly Muslim, that oppression is due more to cultural mores than religion (though through time, the two become intertwined.) In other predominately Muslim countries, women can and do enjoy freedoms unknown to women in the West - like going to the beach if you're 40K overweight!
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:33 PM on January 12, 2007 [5 favorites]
I think people are getting a little riled up here when her question came from a genuine place of interest. She's trying to LEARN, people! She's not trying to offend YOU!
I've traveled to many places. I KNOW that not EVERYONE in Thailand thinks if you point at them with your finger it's rude, and I KNOW that not everyone freaks out about the sole of a person's foot. HOWEVER... if you go in to see the Emerald Buddha in Bangkok and you sit with the bottom of your feet showing towards the buddha, monks will walk directly up to you and ask you to move your feet into the other direction. I know because that happened to me.
There are people this definitely matters to.
When I was traveling in Egypt, the people around me were NOT UPSET that I was showing my foot because there are different expectations of me, as a western woman. They were, however, REALLY REALLY IMPRESSED when I knew to apologize for any rudeness before showing my foot. It was broken and they were understanding, but they made it clear that what I had assumed, that showing the bottom of the foot can be considered rude, WAS NOT INCORRECT. And there was DEFINITELY a feeling that the men thought it was a very special thing to sit and stare at my foot... in a way that the average man in America would not. It was like a peep show for them. They definitely thought it was kinda hot. That was obvious.
Is it rude to chew with your mouth open in America? Yes. Do people still do it? Yes. Does everyone? No. Does it upset some people? Yes. Does it upset everyone? No. I mean, this is no different. The difference is that this etiquette question is about Islamic ettiquette and is being asked sincerely by a non-Islamic woman who is trying to understand things better. Why INSULT her? If more people on this earth asked questions and tried to really understand the quirks and habits of other cultures, this would be a better & probably a far more peaceful place.
posted by miss lynnster at 3:15 PM on January 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
I've traveled to many places. I KNOW that not EVERYONE in Thailand thinks if you point at them with your finger it's rude, and I KNOW that not everyone freaks out about the sole of a person's foot. HOWEVER... if you go in to see the Emerald Buddha in Bangkok and you sit with the bottom of your feet showing towards the buddha, monks will walk directly up to you and ask you to move your feet into the other direction. I know because that happened to me.
There are people this definitely matters to.
When I was traveling in Egypt, the people around me were NOT UPSET that I was showing my foot because there are different expectations of me, as a western woman. They were, however, REALLY REALLY IMPRESSED when I knew to apologize for any rudeness before showing my foot. It was broken and they were understanding, but they made it clear that what I had assumed, that showing the bottom of the foot can be considered rude, WAS NOT INCORRECT. And there was DEFINITELY a feeling that the men thought it was a very special thing to sit and stare at my foot... in a way that the average man in America would not. It was like a peep show for them. They definitely thought it was kinda hot. That was obvious.
Is it rude to chew with your mouth open in America? Yes. Do people still do it? Yes. Does everyone? No. Does it upset some people? Yes. Does it upset everyone? No. I mean, this is no different. The difference is that this etiquette question is about Islamic ettiquette and is being asked sincerely by a non-Islamic woman who is trying to understand things better. Why INSULT her? If more people on this earth asked questions and tried to really understand the quirks and habits of other cultures, this would be a better & probably a far more peaceful place.
posted by miss lynnster at 3:15 PM on January 12, 2007 [3 favorites]
I think the question is interesting turned upside down. If, in the West, everything is visible, what's left to stimulate? Does it explain the rise of hetero anal sex in America (or in American porn at least)? BDSM? Piercing? What about extreme fisting or deep throating with puking? See what I mean.
posted by A189Nut at 3:29 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by A189Nut at 3:29 PM on January 12, 2007
Best answer: In my Muslim country of origin, it is absolutely okay to show your feet or cross your legs for *everyone*, not just some individuals. What Miss Lynnster describes in Egypt may be mistakenly perceived as "Muslim etiquette," but it isn't. In Egypt, this behavior definitely predated Islam, and is totally ignored in many other non-Muslim nations.
So the idea that . . .
In islamic countries as a sign of respect it's best to keep both feet on the floor.
. . . is not necessarily true at all. In my country, it would not mean "respect" to anyone. It would simply mean you sit in a strange (even rude, actually) manner. Women are expected to cross legs (to the same extent this is true on American talk shows, it's not a "rule," it just seems right.)
One cannot compare the entire Muslim world to individual nations like America and expect to be accurate.
To answer the original post's question:
Is the foot forbidden or otherwise "unclean" in a religious sense in Islam?
In many Arab nations, exposing feet is considered rude, but in many other Muslim nations, it means nothing at all. Thus, it cannot be said the foot is considered unclean in any pan-Muslim sense. In many poor nations (Muslim or not) without wall-to-wall carpeting, wood floors, paved roads, sidewalks (et al) and where it makes no sense to wear socks and where many people cannot afford to wear foot-encasing shoeware, feet get really dirty! And the special care that must be taken to ensure that one's dirty feet don't get everything else dirty gets codified into a sort of etiquette. But it's got little to do with Islam per se.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:01 PM on January 12, 2007
So the idea that . . .
In islamic countries as a sign of respect it's best to keep both feet on the floor.
. . . is not necessarily true at all. In my country, it would not mean "respect" to anyone. It would simply mean you sit in a strange (even rude, actually) manner. Women are expected to cross legs (to the same extent this is true on American talk shows, it's not a "rule," it just seems right.)
One cannot compare the entire Muslim world to individual nations like America and expect to be accurate.
To answer the original post's question:
Is the foot forbidden or otherwise "unclean" in a religious sense in Islam?
In many Arab nations, exposing feet is considered rude, but in many other Muslim nations, it means nothing at all. Thus, it cannot be said the foot is considered unclean in any pan-Muslim sense. In many poor nations (Muslim or not) without wall-to-wall carpeting, wood floors, paved roads, sidewalks (et al) and where it makes no sense to wear socks and where many people cannot afford to wear foot-encasing shoeware, feet get really dirty! And the special care that must be taken to ensure that one's dirty feet don't get everything else dirty gets codified into a sort of etiquette. But it's got little to do with Islam per se.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:01 PM on January 12, 2007
I thought it would be abundantly clear I am speaking of areas/regions/places/locales where this is the typical mode of dress. I apologize if that was confusing.
well thats no excuse , when people here want to make your question abundantly what they want to hear instead.
Why wouldn't people get over it quickly when it's explained as the result of a visible injury? It's a social code, not an instinct!
yeah! take that asker of questions.
I don't have time to leave 50 comments sorting out the many wrong assumptions, vaguely insulting stereotypes and outright falsehoods, but I think one can pretty much disregard any of the statements that anyone here blanketly connects to "Islamic countries" or "Muslims" in general.
so does that answer your question Ynoxas? i'm so glad i'm getting a chance to learn about other people , and what they do or don't do where every the hell they may be living. . . or not, it's hard to say. shheeehhsh.
posted by nola at 4:32 PM on January 12, 2007
well thats no excuse , when people here want to make your question abundantly what they want to hear instead.
Why wouldn't people get over it quickly when it's explained as the result of a visible injury? It's a social code, not an instinct!
yeah! take that asker of questions.
I don't have time to leave 50 comments sorting out the many wrong assumptions, vaguely insulting stereotypes and outright falsehoods, but I think one can pretty much disregard any of the statements that anyone here blanketly connects to "Islamic countries" or "Muslims" in general.
so does that answer your question Ynoxas? i'm so glad i'm getting a chance to learn about other people , and what they do or don't do where every the hell they may be living. . . or not, it's hard to say. shheeehhsh.
posted by nola at 4:32 PM on January 12, 2007
Islamic law is definitely not the same in all countries. It's all about the social mores of the society of that one country or region. For example, in Saudi Arabia they feel women shouldn't drive. In other Islamic countries that's not the case. In Egypt, women can drive and have jobs (although in some regions they still don't). Over 80% of women have been circumcised though (they've been led to believe for 1400 years that it's in the Quran), and this is definitely not a practice in most Muslim countries.
Islamic law is not the same as governmental law, it's the acceptable social codes of religious people. These codes vary wherever you go, even though the overall religion is called the same thing. If you go to Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Morrocco, Saudi Arabia... there will be MANY MANY differences. Night and day in some places.
The bottom of the foot thing, while not practiced everywhere, is true to some extent in many countries. Not all countries. But it does exist in some, most definitely.
posted by miss lynnster at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2007
Islamic law is not the same as governmental law, it's the acceptable social codes of religious people. These codes vary wherever you go, even though the overall religion is called the same thing. If you go to Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Morrocco, Saudi Arabia... there will be MANY MANY differences. Night and day in some places.
The bottom of the foot thing, while not practiced everywhere, is true to some extent in many countries. Not all countries. But it does exist in some, most definitely.
posted by miss lynnster at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2007
Did the Dance of Seven Veils and foot related comments in Salome' come to anyone else's mind?
"Herod: Ah, thou art to dance with naked feet! ’Tis well! ’Tis well! Thy little feet will be like white doves. They will be like little white flowers that dance upon the trees."
posted by andythebean at 5:05 PM on January 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
"Herod: Ah, thou art to dance with naked feet! ’Tis well! ’Tis well! Thy little feet will be like white doves. They will be like little white flowers that dance upon the trees."
posted by andythebean at 5:05 PM on January 12, 2007 [1 favorite]
In other words... if the subject is "islamic law & bare feet" and I'm talking about things I specifically experienced and was told during the time I spent in Egypt... I'd think it would be obvious that I'm simply sharing what I learned of Egyptian muslim etiquette (not coptic Egyptian etiquette, or jewish Egyptian etiquette, or the etiquette of muslims in Beirut...) from my own experiences and the wonderful Egyptian muslim people that I spent so much time with & who taught me so much about their culture. I shouldn't have to make a disclaimer to explain all of that, should I? I mean, why would anyone assume that every answer to this question is talking about ALL muslims worldwide? Hey, I'm not even talking about ALL muslims in Egypt! Bedouins & Berbers & Siwans all have their own beliefs too.
If people spend all their time nitpicking and closing off a dialogue by claiming offense, they'll never open up to learn a damn thing about anyone else... or help anyone else to. To quote nola? "shheeehhsh."
posted by miss lynnster at 5:21 PM on January 12, 2007
If people spend all their time nitpicking and closing off a dialogue by claiming offense, they'll never open up to learn a damn thing about anyone else... or help anyone else to. To quote nola? "shheeehhsh."
posted by miss lynnster at 5:21 PM on January 12, 2007
If you wear sandals a lot, your feet get dirty. Doesn't matter if you are Muslim, Hindu or Unitarian.
Not all Muslims live in Muslim countries. I'm even willing to bet there are Muslims in Antarctica. There are more kinds of "Muslim culture" than there are dialects of Chinese or European cuisines.
It is difficult to study fetishes in a lot of cultures, and I'm not sure that perversion, fetish and such are concepts that are universal.
posted by QIbHom at 5:50 PM on January 12, 2007
Not all Muslims live in Muslim countries. I'm even willing to bet there are Muslims in Antarctica. There are more kinds of "Muslim culture" than there are dialects of Chinese or European cuisines.
It is difficult to study fetishes in a lot of cultures, and I'm not sure that perversion, fetish and such are concepts that are universal.
posted by QIbHom at 5:50 PM on January 12, 2007
So I have an actual answer for you, if it's okay to interrupt the offendedfest: A friend of mine who has been to Afghanistan a number of times asked some Afghan men what they looked at to tell if a chick was hot, given the whole burka thing. The answers were eyes, then ankles.
posted by dame at 5:51 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by dame at 5:51 PM on January 12, 2007
Oh yeah... EYES ARE A BIG DEAL. I have green eyes and I got compliments on my eyes about 4-8x a day from both men and women from the second I landed in Egypt (and also in Turkey). One Egyptian perfume seller said, "Your eyes are too beautiful, I feel I must give you a discount." The price was still too high so I said, "I think you should look at my eyes a little more." It was still too much, so I just pointed at my eyes again & batted my eyelashes twice. It totally worked, I got about half off or so, less than anyone else I was with. It was really funny.
posted by miss lynnster at 6:30 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by miss lynnster at 6:30 PM on January 12, 2007
an *expansion* of choice to be able to choose more conservative swimsuits. Yay for that! (In Malibu, you'd be pointed at and laughed at.)
Highly doubtful. If you go to most beaches in Malibu half the women will never disrobe at all. It's completely normal there to see fully clothed people wading in the ocean, playing in the sand etc. There are a lot of cultures in LA and very few women I've met from rural Mexico, for example, would be caught dead in a bikini.
Because of aspects of the beauty culture in "the West," we've all seen sadly overweight girls who feel they *need* to wear short t's which expose very fat bellies (and so on) .
I think that has more to do with the fact that in a lot of US communities most of the young girls are overweight and they don't see anything wrong with their bodies or the way they dress.
posted by fshgrl at 6:52 PM on January 12, 2007
Highly doubtful. If you go to most beaches in Malibu half the women will never disrobe at all. It's completely normal there to see fully clothed people wading in the ocean, playing in the sand etc. There are a lot of cultures in LA and very few women I've met from rural Mexico, for example, would be caught dead in a bikini.
Because of aspects of the beauty culture in "the West," we've all seen sadly overweight girls who feel they *need* to wear short t's which expose very fat bellies (and so on) .
I think that has more to do with the fact that in a lot of US communities most of the young girls are overweight and they don't see anything wrong with their bodies or the way they dress.
posted by fshgrl at 6:52 PM on January 12, 2007
I grew up Muslim, in a Muslim country (Malaysia), and have known a lot of Muslim men. The foot thing's never come up in any context. The closest thing I can think of is that in Malay Muslim culture, it is said that heaven is below a mother's feet...which says more about the reverence of mothers then about feet.
If you're asking about specific places, it then becomes a cultural thing, not a religious thing.
posted by divabat at 7:55 PM on January 12, 2007
If you're asking about specific places, it then becomes a cultural thing, not a religious thing.
posted by divabat at 7:55 PM on January 12, 2007
In other words... if the subject is "islamic law & bare feet" and I'm talking about things I specifically experienced and was told during the time I spent in Egypt... I'd think it would be obvious that I'm simply sharing what I learned of Egyptian muslim etiquette (not coptic Egyptian etiquette, or jewish Egyptian etiquette, or the etiquette of muslims in Beirut...) from my own experiences and the wonderful Egyptian muslim people that I spent so much time with & who taught me so much about their culture. I shouldn't have to make a disclaimer to explain all of that, should I?
In fairness, Miss Lynnster, you began your post . . .
In islamic countries as a sign of respect it's best to keep both feet on the floor when sitting & not cross your legs (especially not with an ankle over the knee). They do consider the foot unclean, so it's considered offensive to show the bottom of your feet to face or point at another person. If you look at a lot of ancient art, men always put their enemies under their feet as a sign of power and disrespect.
Then you went on to cite an example of this in Iraq before even mentioning Egypt. And when you do mention Egypt, you begin it by saying . . .
Anyhow, so knowing that... I was in Egypt in May and I broke my foot on THE THIRD DAY (etc)
. . . "Anyhow, so knowing that" (to me) is clearly reasserting a statement to which the Egyptian anecdote can only function as further confirmation.
I've never claimed offense, but there really wasn't anything in your passage that even implied that it was limited to Egypt. More to the point, it's not even a matter of Egyptian Muslim etiquette at all, but Egyptian etiquette in general . . . any Egyptian of any religious persuasion would be familiar with this, and most likely would follow it as well.
For you it may be nitpicking, but for me these sort of wrongly conceived or poorly stated "facts" about people cause a lot of problems. For a specific example, Robert Kaplan's "Balkan Ghosts" asserted, stupidly, that problems in my country were the result of "ancient tribal hatreds" about which little if anything could be done. He was wrong (and has largely recanted), but even President Clinton cited the (bad) information this book as one of the primary reasons that the US did not intervene in Bosnia when it would have mattered. It isn't hard for me to believe that the reason I lost my home, country and best friend and became, in an instant, an orphan was partially the result of ill-informed people taking it into their own hands to discuss things that they really didn't understand. And god knows, though I am (and have always been) totally "western," undoubtedly I will someday soon be at someone's house for dinner and be offered a special "foot napkin cover" so as not to offend guests because "they know about my culture." I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as you'd think!
Do Muslim men have foot fetishes? It's a silly question, (but hey, the number one question I get asked it is "What did you use for toilet paper during the war?, which is really stupid) but I think it was sincere enough that it deserved some sort of answer . . . if only to illuminate a few things about Islam. (Which people have done, such as to note that Muslim men do see women "unveiled" so to speak, and so on.)
Please excuse my poor English.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:02 PM on January 12, 2007
In fairness, Miss Lynnster, you began your post . . .
In islamic countries as a sign of respect it's best to keep both feet on the floor when sitting & not cross your legs (especially not with an ankle over the knee). They do consider the foot unclean, so it's considered offensive to show the bottom of your feet to face or point at another person. If you look at a lot of ancient art, men always put their enemies under their feet as a sign of power and disrespect.
Then you went on to cite an example of this in Iraq before even mentioning Egypt. And when you do mention Egypt, you begin it by saying . . .
Anyhow, so knowing that... I was in Egypt in May and I broke my foot on THE THIRD DAY (etc)
. . . "Anyhow, so knowing that" (to me) is clearly reasserting a statement to which the Egyptian anecdote can only function as further confirmation.
I've never claimed offense, but there really wasn't anything in your passage that even implied that it was limited to Egypt. More to the point, it's not even a matter of Egyptian Muslim etiquette at all, but Egyptian etiquette in general . . . any Egyptian of any religious persuasion would be familiar with this, and most likely would follow it as well.
For you it may be nitpicking, but for me these sort of wrongly conceived or poorly stated "facts" about people cause a lot of problems. For a specific example, Robert Kaplan's "Balkan Ghosts" asserted, stupidly, that problems in my country were the result of "ancient tribal hatreds" about which little if anything could be done. He was wrong (and has largely recanted), but even President Clinton cited the (bad) information this book as one of the primary reasons that the US did not intervene in Bosnia when it would have mattered. It isn't hard for me to believe that the reason I lost my home, country and best friend and became, in an instant, an orphan was partially the result of ill-informed people taking it into their own hands to discuss things that they really didn't understand. And god knows, though I am (and have always been) totally "western," undoubtedly I will someday soon be at someone's house for dinner and be offered a special "foot napkin cover" so as not to offend guests because "they know about my culture." I'm exaggerating, but not by as much as you'd think!
Do Muslim men have foot fetishes? It's a silly question, (but hey, the number one question I get asked it is "What did you use for toilet paper during the war?, which is really stupid) but I think it was sincere enough that it deserved some sort of answer . . . if only to illuminate a few things about Islam. (Which people have done, such as to note that Muslim men do see women "unveiled" so to speak, and so on.)
Please excuse my poor English.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 9:02 PM on January 12, 2007
Ok, so I am very tired & didn't word things perfectly apparently. For the record, the first part you quoted about "islamic countries" was paraphrased from a travel guide for diplomats in Islamic countries because I wanted to be sure I worded it properly. Those same rules have been suggested to me for other countries I've traveled through with a largely muslim population (Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran, etc. - although it wasn't part of the culture in Turkey that I noticed), but obviously I haven't been to every country on Earth. Nonetheless, it sure seems like they aren't particularly uncommon etiquette tips.
To avoid future offenses, I shall keep my very specific travel experiences as well as the islamic & cultural topics that I discuss with my Egyptian & Lebanese friends (we talk every week on Skype - I'm taking an Arabic class & they're tutoring me) to myself & let you speak for everyone. I thought what I learned from visiting my friends was on topic for the question so I just thought I'd share. My error. I have learned my lesson, al hamdu lillah.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:47 PM on January 12, 2007
To avoid future offenses, I shall keep my very specific travel experiences as well as the islamic & cultural topics that I discuss with my Egyptian & Lebanese friends (we talk every week on Skype - I'm taking an Arabic class & they're tutoring me) to myself & let you speak for everyone. I thought what I learned from visiting my friends was on topic for the question so I just thought I'd share. My error. I have learned my lesson, al hamdu lillah.
posted by miss lynnster at 9:47 PM on January 12, 2007
Response by poster: You know, it's been a long time since I was sorry I asked a question.
If nothing else this has been illuminating to remind me what that sensation feels like.
(Dee Xtrovert, for the record, Egypt is 94% Muslim, so equating "Egyptian" etiquette for "Egyptian Muslim" etiquette for an outsider would be practically given, don't you think? So please get off of one of the only posters to this thread trying to offer an actual answer. And get off of your damn high horse.)
I would try to quiet the people who miss the forest for the trees, and reword the question as:
In places where women are traditionally covered or wear very modest clothing, either for religious, cultural, environmental, or purely aesthetic reasons, is there a higher incident or lower incident of fetishism for the body parts that are routinely displayed?
But, honestly, I no longer give a shit.
Pedantic Bores:1 Me:0
posted by Ynoxas at 10:09 PM on January 12, 2007
If nothing else this has been illuminating to remind me what that sensation feels like.
(Dee Xtrovert, for the record, Egypt is 94% Muslim, so equating "Egyptian" etiquette for "Egyptian Muslim" etiquette for an outsider would be practically given, don't you think? So please get off of one of the only posters to this thread trying to offer an actual answer. And get off of your damn high horse.)
I would try to quiet the people who miss the forest for the trees, and reword the question as:
In places where women are traditionally covered or wear very modest clothing, either for religious, cultural, environmental, or purely aesthetic reasons, is there a higher incident or lower incident of fetishism for the body parts that are routinely displayed?
But, honestly, I no longer give a shit.
Pedantic Bores:1 Me:0
posted by Ynoxas at 10:09 PM on January 12, 2007
I must confess, what I'm getting from this post is that I'm now truly appreciating the engaging and open conversations my islamic friends have with me about our respective cultural and religious topics & our own experiences. They're an awful lot more educational and positive than scolding and insulting eachother over semantics and global generalizations that aren't even being made.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:14 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by miss lynnster at 10:14 PM on January 12, 2007
Ynoxas, I used to live in Daharan (Saudi Arabia), and grew up watching American Television, so I’m not sure how much of the psychological make-up of my attraction is due to my being raised in a very strict house-hold, and country, or how much it was because of the pure and pristine (at least the ones that we used to watch—The Golden Girls, What’s Happening, Who’s the Boss, to name a few) programmes that we watched as kids, but the thing that’s most tantalizing to me is a woman’s brain. I had absolutely no contact with girls when I lived there, we studied in separate schools after the fourth or fifth standard I think (after which the girls had to start wearing an abaya—the veil), and even then, at that young age, I can remember longing for a girl I had a huge crush on who had curly hair and was smart as a whip, and the only way I could show my attraction to her was to try and equal her with my academic record. Again, I’m not sure how representative this is, but that was the case with me. The only times that we were on neutral territory (this was after I’d completed my fourth/fifth class, and was in my pre-teens) was when we were on the bus (the first few seats were reserved for the ladies, and the last rows were for the guys), where the whole atmosphere would get charged with a lot of sexual tension (everyone would be in a hurry to get a glance, or a few precious moments with their sweet-hearts) and the guys would act like guys everywhere—trying to man up each other, and show-casing their skills, whatever they were, and the girls would be like girls everywhere—giggling, ignoring, or acknowledging the attention they were getting.
Sorry for drawing this out as much as I did, but your question just took me back to the good old days, and I thought that as a Muslim I’d just add my voice to the pile.:)
Hope you don’t mind.
posted by hadjiboy at 10:23 PM on January 12, 2007
Sorry for drawing this out as much as I did, but your question just took me back to the good old days, and I thought that as a Muslim I’d just add my voice to the pile.:)
Hope you don’t mind.
posted by hadjiboy at 10:23 PM on January 12, 2007
Chin up Ynoxas. I'm sorry this post went a little bit kerplooey. I actually thought it was an interesting question because it went along with my broken foot experience so much. Once again, okay perhaps it was just those individual men who surrounded me for two weeks & it had nothing to do with being in Egypt or surrounded by mosques & people who prayed to Allah five times a day... but those men REALLY LIKED MY FEET. A lot.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:35 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by miss lynnster at 10:35 PM on January 12, 2007
Ynoxas - Here's a tip for reframing questions like this for Politically Correct Theater ... "Since countries with a higher average proportion of Muslims have a higher average rate of near whole-body coverings (or greater than proportionally necessary) as compared to climes wherein coverings are dictated by temperature (e.g., The Antarctic), yet the feet seem to be more often left bare or in sandals, would the average hetero-or-bi-sexual male develop a greater interest (relative to matching males in countries without such higher rates of female covering) in those areas of the person that are exposed? Please assume the males in question are not extremely visually impaired."
Yeah, it's like writing contracts, but sometimes you have to remind the PC that non-zero correlations do exist.
posted by adipocere at 11:12 PM on January 12, 2007
Yeah, it's like writing contracts, but sometimes you have to remind the PC that non-zero correlations do exist.
posted by adipocere at 11:12 PM on January 12, 2007
Sorry, I just read Ynoxas’s last post. I’m glad you asked the question though, and since there aren’t many Muslims here—Zouhair is the only one who comes to mind, and even he’s non-practicing if I’m not mistaken—and Azaadistani? (and a Muslim woman/girl who had posted once fighting for her right to wear the veil), I just got carried away I guess. But to answer your question specifically, I love women’s arms. I guess never being able to see them in plain sight for so many years may have had an affect on me. And now, living in India, where the most modest of the Fashionable clothing is wearing Salwaar Kameez’s that have their sleeves cut at the shoulders, they’re in plain view and look very alluring. We also have a lot of foreigners here, and they sometimes wear Tank-tops—so they are also nice (they look cute with their exposed belly-buttons:)).
posted by hadjiboy at 11:36 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by hadjiboy at 11:36 PM on January 12, 2007
I knew an Egyptian femdom who said that, in Egypt, foot fetishes were very common. But then, foot fetishes seem to be awfully common among male submissives in general, so maybe she was just getting a biased sample.
posted by Clay201 at 11:50 PM on January 12, 2007
posted by Clay201 at 11:50 PM on January 12, 2007
Just had a flash of something that's sort of on topic here, albeit by contrasting example. My Austrian friend's first boyfriend came from a family of nudists. It used to really bother her because in order to turn him on she had to put on clothing. He had seen the human body so much growing up that nudity wasn't hot for him, it was having parts of her body hidden that turned him on. It was really a problem in their relationship, actually.
posted by miss lynnster at 2:50 AM on January 13, 2007
posted by miss lynnster at 2:50 AM on January 13, 2007
i have nothing to say about muslims, but as miss lynnster implies, don't people tend to fetishize the parts of the body they see *less*? isn't part of the appeal, the fact that whatever-it-is is hidden?
for instance, in north america, you can see anyone's hands whenever you want. no one cares about the hands of hollywood starlets, they're just wallpaper. it's much rarer to see a nude bum, or nipple, on the average attractive person that one might admire-- so those seem to be the more fetishized parts of the anatomy. (i wonder how much people long for nipples in places where women habitually go bare-breasted.)
i can imagine that in a place where most of a woman is covered, you'd have to look at the few visible parts to see if she's attractive-- eyes and ankles (as dame mentioned) makes sense in that case-- but that sounds to me like a touchstone, not a fetish. once they're allowed to see the whole woman naked, i bet those ankle-gazing men forget she even has ankles.
it makes total sense to me that in countries where women wear modest clothes that hide much of their anatomies, that the hidden parts- long smooth stretches of bare skin, or luxurious hair (as dydeker initially mentioned), or a curvy silhouette, would become prime objects of lust. humans will leer at whatever we can get, but we *crave* not that which is available- but that which is denied.
posted by twistofrhyme at 3:01 PM on January 14, 2007
for instance, in north america, you can see anyone's hands whenever you want. no one cares about the hands of hollywood starlets, they're just wallpaper. it's much rarer to see a nude bum, or nipple, on the average attractive person that one might admire-- so those seem to be the more fetishized parts of the anatomy. (i wonder how much people long for nipples in places where women habitually go bare-breasted.)
i can imagine that in a place where most of a woman is covered, you'd have to look at the few visible parts to see if she's attractive-- eyes and ankles (as dame mentioned) makes sense in that case-- but that sounds to me like a touchstone, not a fetish. once they're allowed to see the whole woman naked, i bet those ankle-gazing men forget she even has ankles.
it makes total sense to me that in countries where women wear modest clothes that hide much of their anatomies, that the hidden parts- long smooth stretches of bare skin, or luxurious hair (as dydeker initially mentioned), or a curvy silhouette, would become prime objects of lust. humans will leer at whatever we can get, but we *crave* not that which is available- but that which is denied.
posted by twistofrhyme at 3:01 PM on January 14, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by dydecker at 10:45 AM on January 12, 2007