Can ideological differences make or break a relationship?

September 26, 2006 12:09 PM

Increasingly, my fiancee and I have become distant in our ideological views. I realize that this is likely to happen in any relationship as people age but I still feel rather strongly about some of these issues (as she did early on in our relationship) and I don't appreciate the increasing pressure from her and her family to "grow-up". How common is this situation? And, if so, is there any advice you can offer to work through the problems?

I apologize for the length, but here's more background on the situation:

We've been together for over 4 years. We live together and plan on getting married next year. We were both initially against the idea of marriage but she relented and basically told me that if we weren't getting married then the relationship was over. I love her dearly and not wanting to lose her I agreed to the marriage thinking that it would be far worse to lose her then stick to a silly ideal.

That's one down, but not nearly as important to me as the next. We never wanted children and recently she confided that she has changed her mind and now would like children once we're married. She initially mentioned this to her family (who absolutely love the idea of us having kids) who, once I was informed and upset by the decision, decided to step in and deride my opinions on the subject as childish.

I did not appreciate that at all. We have discussed the subject at some length since then, but I'm fairly sure that it is something I am not willing to change my mind about.

Fast forward to recently: We are both vegetarians (me being an extremely strict vegetarian) and she has decided to start eating meat again. While this is definitely a personal decision on her part, I see it as just one more example of another area in which we are growing apart. I made the mistake of once telling her (at the beginning of our relationship) that I would never date a non-vegetarian and her family have now latched on to this latest debacle to weigh in against me.

I'm seeing warning signs all over the place and we have attempted to discuss these issues but with her family weighing in and her resilience it has become increasingly apparent that my opinions or ideals no longer matter and I'm not sure what to do.

posted by anonymous to human relations (69 comments total)

Not wanting to have children isn't childish, it's a legitimate position. Sometimes people do change their minds about these things, and it's probably the one thing in your story that I would say is a deal breaker. No one should be forced to have kids, it will just lead to problems down the line. I think you need to really think about whether you'll change your mind about it. Your age probably factors in, if you're in your 20's you should be aware that in 5 to 10 years you could feel completely different about the subject. Or not. It's up to you to decide if you think you'll be able to compromise about that.
posted by blueskiesinside at 12:16 PM on September 26, 2006 [1 favorite]

Sounds like you've got a lot of disagreements between the two of you, but only one thing jumps out that makes me think you should drop her like a pointy, radioactive potato, and that's the disagreement on children. You don't want kids, and in my book that means you should not take on the responsibility of raising them. (This isn't criticism at all; I feel the same way as you do.) In an absolute worst-case scenario, she could even sabotage contraception if she's crazy and desperate.

In short: Can ideological differences make or break a relationship? Hells yes, and it sounds like yours is broken. I'm sorry.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:17 PM on September 26, 2006

I think her wanting children versus you not wanting children is a pretty big deal. Unless one of you changes your mind, it will be pretty hard for the marriage to work, wouldn't you say?

I don't think her taking up meat again is such a big deal. It doesn't actually effect you. Maybe it's a very big deal to you, but I could see a relationship working where one person is a vegetarian and the other is not. I know people in this situation.
posted by chunking express at 12:17 PM on September 26, 2006

If you do not agree on children, that is not quite an ideological difference, that is major life choice difference. As in "if you do not agree on that point, you should seriously look in to whether you want to be married" difference. I feel less strong about the vegetarian thing personally.

I got out of a "yeah we'll probably get married some day" relationship recently and was suprised that, in retrospect, our views and goals had grown so different. I think the fact that we did NOT have blow-out differences like kids, money or ethics maybe kept us together longer than perhaps we should have considering some other differing views that were important (career vs family, debt vs thrift, etc.)

If you somehow manage to work out the kids issue, it sounds like you still have an uphill battle with her family that sounds important. If they don't like you, the fact that she is in love with you and intends to marry you will still be problematic. At best it will make family gatherings irritating and tense and give you and her some "wow your family is nuts" discussion time together. At worst they poison her against you, second guess all your decisions together and, should you get married, give her tons of reasons for regretting that decision. Actually at worst she decides she agrees with them and the two of you stay together in some sort of life of quiet desparation.

I'm not saying you can't perhaps overcome this, but if she's in an untimatum-making position (i.e. "marry me or I walk") you may want to think about whether further ultimatums about kids, food choices and whatever else her family dishes out are worth it. If she says "we're having kids or I walk" what will you say?
posted by jessamyn at 12:17 PM on September 26, 2006

You ask, Can idealological differences make or break a relationship? The answer is, of course, they CAN. But will they? My father is a Democrat and my mother is a Republican and they've been married for 25 years. It's not a problem for them. Maybe for some people it would be. You have to decide what is more important- the foods you eat or this girl? your views on having children or this girl? The way you frame the question, it sounds like you've already made up your mind.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:20 PM on September 26, 2006 [1 favorite]

Honestly, it sounds like you & your fiancee need to get some couples counseling. Some of the differences in your relationship, like that she wants kids and you don't, may make it impossible for you to stay together long term if it means one of you will be miserable in the long run. Things like the vegetarianism I think you could have a compromise with - maybe she could just eat meat not around you, or not cook it in the house, or whatever. But the child issue is a huge one, and if having children or not having children is a deal-breaker for either one of you, then it might not even be worth trying to salvage the relationship, depending on your reasons for not wanting kids. Like, is it because you don't want to bring another life into such a crazy world? Then would you consider adoption? I guess you both really have to delve into what's truly important to each of you, and WHY, and see if you can find any common ground or way to compromise.

Additionally, I'm kind of concerned that she brings her issues to her family instead of to you. If you're going to get married, it helps to have a united front when dealing with each others' families, and it seems like she's not ready to confide in you before she's ready to confide in her folks. She may want people on her side, but this is a decision only YOU and SHE can make, and getting other people involved to bully you is not fair, nor is it mature.

Of course, are you *sure* that she's running to tell these things to her family and that they're not dragging things out of her and twisting her words? I've known more than one set of manipulative parents who nag and prod and manipulate until their child says something that could be construed as what they want to hear, and then they take it and run with it. So...just make sure it's her who is making these new decisions, and not her parents/family.

Good luck.
posted by tastybrains at 12:21 PM on September 26, 2006

How common is this? Completely.

I don't know how many times people I know have offende me by out-and-out negated my stated wish to remain unmarried and child-free. "We'll see" being a common response, as if I can't know my own mind, or can't retain it against the surge of societal pressures and female hormone patterns.

My only suggestion for you is to protray your beliefs as maturely as possible. Practice your response, and make it air-tight, so they can't possibly think your views are based in immaturity (fleeting ideals or reluctance to be responsible). If they won't work with you under those circumstances, they don't respect you enough.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:22 PM on September 26, 2006

Don't raise children if you don't want children. Period.

It's not fair to the kid, and it's not fair to you. This is not criticism, but an honest assessment. There is no shame in not wanting kids, and someone who does not want them should never be forced to have them.

Anecdotally: When my wife and I got married, we decided that we were not going to have kids. As it happened, both of us changed our mind at the same time and are happily raising a really wonderful 3.5 month old girl.

However, what I'd really take exception with is the ultimatums she's given you. That's not how a healthy relationship works, and therefore my advice would be to look at that and if that behaviour can't change then the status of your relationship needs to.
posted by Kickstart70 at 12:22 PM on September 26, 2006

Marriage? Red flag.
Kids? Red flag.
Diet? Red flag.
She's apparently decided what kind of man she wants (with the help of her family) and you aren't it.
posted by Floydd at 12:27 PM on September 26, 2006 [1 favorite]

the vegetarian thing is not that big an issue ... that can be compromised with and tolerated

the child issue cannot possibly have a compromise ... if she is serious about having children and you are serious about not having them, then the two of you are not compatable in what you want from life

it is not anyone's fault ... it just is ... unless one or the other of you changes their mind, one of you will feel that they have been forced into something the other wanted

unless it changes, you can only break it off ... do it now, waiting will only make it worse
posted by pyramid termite at 12:32 PM on September 26, 2006

First she says that you must marry her when she knows that you don't believe in marriage. Then she decides that she wants to have kids knowing that you don't want to have kids. Then, finding that you're still there for some reason, she starts eating meat knowing that you're a vegetarian of deep-seated convictions. Sounds like you're being run off.

But that's academic, if you marry someone who wants kids you will wind up with either kids, a divorce, or a miserable spouse who blames you for ruining her life, even if you're ideologically in lockstep on everything else.
posted by Eothele at 12:32 PM on September 26, 2006

Wow. Sounds like she and her family are completely unsympathetic and unattentive to your own needs and beliefs - and unapologetically so.

I'm not saying you can't perhaps overcome this, but if she's in an untimatum-making position (i.e. "marry me or I walk") you may want to think about whether further ultimatums about kids, food choices and whatever else her family dishes out are worth it. If she says "we're having kids or I walk" what will you say?
- Couldn't have said it better myself.

Marriages should be about compromise. Sounds like you are giving with no take. This may lead to major resentment down the road. Furthermore, if someone is adult enough to realize they do not want to have kids - for whatever reason - she should be applauded. There are too many kids growing up with parents who never really wanted them.

Your girlfriend sounds really selfish in that she seems to think only of herself and not those around her who she might hurt in the process. She also seems too highly influenced by her family - if you guys are old enough to be married, you should be old enough to make decisions without the interference of each other's family. This is YOUR family we're talking about now. Don't forget it.
posted by orangeshoe at 12:32 PM on September 26, 2006

The negative (and most realistic, I think) interpretation:

You were both unsure about getting married, but then she suddenly pushed you into it.

You agreed you didn't want children, but then she suddenly decided she did want children. When you were (understandably!) upset by this, her family said you were childish.

You were both vegetarians, and she knew you wouldn't date a non-vegetarian. Then she suddenly decided to stop being a vegetarian, and her family again derided you for being the way you are and making the choices you have.

So the questions are:

Are these sudden changes due to her family?

Why is her family such a huge influence in her life—and why are they becoming a stronger influence lately?

Is she making these decisions, or is her family?

Is she wavering and subconsciously looking for an out?

Is she consciously looking for an out?

Is she testing you?

Does she understand the impact of her collective actions?

Does she care about you? Does she see herself as being in a relationship, or is the relationship just a symbolic shell, something for her to attain and maintain?

If anyone's childish here, it's her—adults stand on their own and don't rely upon their family to do their decision-making for them.

So I'll lay it out for you: Someone who's on the level and who truly cares about you doesn't act like this. Something is seriously wrong. You need to approach her directly with these concerns. Any one of the above is a serious problem, and all of them together is incredibly bad for business, so to speak. If she can't answer them in a way that will allay your fears, you should truly reconsider why you'd want to marry this person.
posted by limeonaire at 12:33 PM on September 26, 2006

I think meat vs veg is trivial (though I guess there are vegetarians who would feel differently.) Being for or against marriage is also fairly trivial. But kids? Like everyone else, I think this is a dealbreaker.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:36 PM on September 26, 2006

I think it's pretty obvious what you need to do.
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:36 PM on September 26, 2006

It sounds like you are in your young twenties. It takes awhile to mature and almost everyone will mature. Don't limit yourself or make hard-headed decisions you will regret later. Life will confront you with a billion possibilities and you shouldn't just dismiss them as outside of who you want to be. Everyday you change with new experiences and that is a good thing. If you stay the same you become conservative and boring.

You seem caught off guard by some changes in your fiance which makes me wonder how close the two of you are. I almost get the impression you see her only a few times a week and that she spends the rest of the time with her family. Obviously in that situation your influence is going to be sidelined.
posted by JJ86 at 12:38 PM on September 26, 2006

Try giving your fiancee an ultimatum. "I'll marry you, but on the condition we agree not to have kids." If she won't budge, walk. She needs to understand how selfish she's being toward you, her future husband. If she wants kids more than you, better that someone else be the vessel. Just sail off.

If she wants kids and you don't, it's unfair for you both to stay together, if not for the bevy of other reasons.
posted by orangeshoe at 12:40 PM on September 26, 2006

Better she's changed her mind about kids, before you were married, not after. At least you can deal with a fair view of the future she really wants. I had 2 kids with my wife by age 21, and we decided it was scary/crazy for her to stay on birth control the rest of her life, and that it was safer and easier for me to get a vasectomy than for her to get her tubes tied, so I did. A year later, she decided to seek a divorce, and left, with the kids. A year after that, she remarried and had a third boy, and still wanting a little girl, finally had her on her 4th try. End of her reproduction.

My third wife changed her mind about wanting kids, too, 5 years into the marriage. She left to take up with a married man, and had a little girl by him, although he wouldn't leave his wife and kids to marry her.

Reproductive differences are a definite deal breaker, and the source of considerable angst. If her family is on your back, too, it will be a constant drumbeat for offspring. If you don't want kids, don't keep company with a woman who does, because, in my experience, she'll find a way to have them.
posted by paulsc at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2006

Wow paulsc, sorry.
posted by orangeshoe at 12:44 PM on September 26, 2006

Don't give her that ultimatum. It's not nice, and she might accidentally choose to stay with you and pretend she doesn't want kids.
posted by thirteenkiller at 12:46 PM on September 26, 2006

Time to part ways.

The girlfriend is changing in ways that you seem determined not to. Only one of them is a dealbreaker, but its a big one.

If she wants children and you don't want them, it's likely to be a huge hole in her heart for the rest of your life together if you don't have kids. If you do have kids, chances are you will come to be glad you had them, unless you don't, in which case their existance will be a constant thorn in your side, which isn't fair to you, and is particularly unfair to them.
posted by Good Brain at 12:46 PM on September 26, 2006

Re: PinkSuperhero: Republican vs. Democrat does not = Children vs. No Children. Also sounds like she is learning to not take your word seriously.

No marriage? She coerced you into it. Can't live with a omnivore? She made you fall back on your word there too. Pushing you to having kids should be no problem just like the others.

The real childish behaviour is her family (apparently) changing her mind to think like they do.
posted by umlaut at 12:49 PM on September 26, 2006

I disagree with orangeshoe. Dropping ultimatums to get your way is not really a good idea. Accordingly, I was in my twenties with the "No kids" agenda, and in my thirties it has changed to, "Kids are cool".

Not saying anything about you and your beliefs, just that some things change over time.

I don't know what to say about her family. Their quick dismissal of your values is a disappointment to read. Counseling seems like a good idea at least to help seperate who is actuallly feeling what without her (and soon to be your) family involved.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2006

I don't think things like "whether you want kids" are ideological differences. They're fundamental differences in life goals, and if she can't take your views seriously, then that's a problem. You can't make a life with someone who wants a totally different life from yours.
posted by SoftRain at 12:51 PM on September 26, 2006

Re: PinkSuperhero: Republican vs. Democrat does not = Children vs. No Children.

I'm aware of that; didn't mean to imply that those two things were on the same level. I decided to skip explaining that part since I figured others would (and did) point out that the children thing is the most important thing of all.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:52 PM on September 26, 2006 [1 favorite]

Your fiancee is a selfish, passive-aggressive baby who lets other people control what she thinks instead of being adult enough to make her own decisions. Early in your relationship, she conformed to your ideologies and practices. Now she's moving away from copying you, but using her family as a crutch instead of standing up for herself. She's the one who needs to grow up, not you.
posted by matildaben at 12:58 PM on September 26, 2006 [1 favorite]

Firm disagreement about whether or not to have kids is an A-number-one dealbreaker. Not wanting kids is not childish or weird.

But it's also not ideological, and it seems odd to me that you're couching it in those terms.

Are you saying things like "I don't want kids, ever -- I mean, I'd love to have a kid, but it's my SWORN DUTY TO THE PLANET to limit our population!" or other things that might imply that it's not that you don't actually want kids, it's that you think having kids is ideologically incorrect?

If you are, then you can expect people with more experience in the world to sometimes poo-poo your ideals. Lots of us had some sort of really burning strong ideals when we were 25 that we later realized were a bit silly, or too strong for actually live with, and convincing people that you really mean when they really meant it too when they were 23 can be a tough sell.

As an aside, assuming that anonymous is doing all the giving isn't warranted. We don't know anonymous and his fiancee. It might be that anonymous has been a demanding tyrant about NO! marriage and NO! kids and NO! meat for years and made it clear that people who want those things are terrible people in his eyes, and that his fiancee is finally starting to come out from underneath his wants and express her own wishes. Or it might not be.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:03 PM on September 26, 2006 [1 favorite]

tastybrains: Additionally, I'm kind of concerned that she brings her issues to her family instead of to you.

ABSOLUTELY. I think that a couple that is committed to working things out between them can do more than they think, but using her family as "muscle" is not playing fair, and to me reads as a lack of commitment to the relationship, or at very least a lack of understanding of how to participate in a mature relationship between equals.

Good luck.
posted by misterbrandt at 1:11 PM on September 26, 2006

You've already received plenty of good advice here, but I want to second thirteenkiller's recommendation: Don't give her an ultimatum on something as life-altering as marriage and kids. It's just not productive; people react in irrational ways when they're cornered. Much better to say, "Listen, I love you, but I don't want kids, and I need to be with someone who feels the same way. You'll have to decide for yourself what's right for you."
posted by Gamblor at 1:26 PM on September 26, 2006

Actually, it's not the kids debate that scares me, it's the fact that her family doesn't respect you.

If they're not kind to you now, they never will. There is taking of sides. Already. And you're not even married. That's not just weird, that's rude and scary.

And if she doesn't respect you, it's already over.
posted by Gucky at 1:26 PM on September 26, 2006

Dude, it is over. Taillights. Move on. Quickly.

Are you seriously considering getting amrried against your instincts, marrying someone who wants kids when you don't, someone who has her family tell her what to do, someone who is sending you a big hint with the meat eating change?

RUN!!!!
posted by JohnnyGunn at 1:34 PM on September 26, 2006

It sounds like you are in your young twenties. It takes awhile to mature and almost everyone will mature. Don't limit yourself or make hard-headed decisions you will regret later. Life will confront you with a billion possibilities and you shouldn't just dismiss them as outside of who you want to be. Everyday you change with new experiences and that is a good thing. If you stay the same you become conservative and boring.

Obviously people change over time. But the kids vs. no kids thing is HUGE. I've never wanted kids for lots of reasons, so I understand where anon is coming from on that. And yeah, he might change. He might not though, and to go into a marriage in this situation within the year would, IMHO, be a huge mistake because if he doesn't change, it won't be pretty when it ends.

I also agree with the other people that said you should definitely not have a kid if you don't really want one. Its not fair to anyone involved, and yes, that includes you. You shouldn't feel (or be made to feel) selfish for your beliefs and life choices. Its your life.

Also, why she tells her family private stuff that's going on between you guys (like the kids thing, the veggie issue, etc) is beyond me. I do understand needing to talk to people about things to get an opinion, but that's what friends are for. Family is too close to the situation to have an objective opinion. From what you've told us, it sounds like she's using them to have someone "on her side," and that's really lame and the exact opposite of a healthy relationship.
posted by AlisonM at 1:42 PM on September 26, 2006

Actually, it's not the kids debate that scares me, it's the fact that her family doesn't respect you.

If they're not kind to you now, they never will. There is taking of sides. Already. And you're not even married. That's not just weird, that's rude and scary.

I agree wholeheartedly with Gucky here. Without knowing the full story, it is difficult to be certain, but I wonder if she is being passive-aggressive in confiding in her family about things that she might want, thus bolstering her position? (Versus her family unduly influencing her?)

Irregardless, this sounds like a very unhealthy pattern for your relationship. Are you in love with the couple that you thought you were when your lifestyle decisions matched? Or the couple that you are now?
posted by jeanmari at 1:44 PM on September 26, 2006

I mean this in the nicest possible way to be sympathetic to your significant other, but she can't let go. She has decided that the way she has been living her life with you, while good, isn't the way she wants to live her life. She wants to get married, eat meat, and have kids. I would imagine at some point these things crossed her mind and she realized that you might not be it.

The "marriage or breakup" ultimatum is one that I've heard among friends, and it's always ridiculous. If you really feel you're compatible enough with someone to marry them, then you're going to stay with them. If you realize that you're just not that compatible, then you either continue as things have been going or you break up. Some people, I'd say a majority, realize that if they're going to get married someday that they can't indefinitely date someone who is not their future spouse.
posted by mikeh at 1:47 PM on September 26, 2006

Seriously, the fact that she can't seem to keep some very private things private, and thinks her family needs to be somehow involved in your childbearing decisions as a couple to the extent that she discussed it with them before you? Not an ideological difference, but deserves the batshitinsane tag. I agree with matildaben, your fiancee is a baby. Time to end this.
posted by miss tea at 1:49 PM on September 26, 2006

Squelching the hope of having kids (if you want them) is probably close to impossible. I don't know how old you are, but consider that it might get more difficult for her as your friends start having their own children that she interacts with.

I third thirteenkiller's advice and want to add this: if you do stay together because she tells you she's willing to accept no kids, consider taking charge of your own contraception method. I don't know your girlfriend, and I sincerely apologize if this is off-base, but people have a funny way of romanticizing pregnancy. The most honest people can convince themselves "it's okay if I'm a bit sloppy with the birth control pill, because I know if I got pregnant anonymous would end up loving the kid, being a fantastic father, and we'd all be one big happy family."
posted by lalex at 1:50 PM on September 26, 2006

Try giving your fiancee an ultimatum. "I'll marry you, but on the condition we agree not to have kids."

I don't think that's a good idea. In fact, getting married to someone who wants children if you don't want children is a phenomenally bad idea.

She says she wants kids. You say that you don't. Time to do the responsible thing and find someone who actually shares your beliefs. A child should be wanted by both of its parents, and putting yourself in a situation where you're likely to become a parent to a child you don't want is really, really bad.

Move along.
posted by eleyna at 1:55 PM on September 26, 2006

Uhm, these are really more than ideological differences, they are decisions which will effect your practical everyday life. Being engaged myself my fiancé and I have our own differences, but what you are talking about seems huge. Its not just a difference of opinion, its a difference in the choice of lifestyle you intend to lead, what your money and time are spent on, etc...

I'd also add that the family criticizing you the way you claim is a bit worrying. I'd have a hard time with that issue alone. I'm no dear abbey, but isn't this between you and your fiancé?
posted by jeffe at 1:57 PM on September 26, 2006

I know a happy couple consisting of a full on red-diaper-baby leftist and Rush Limbaugh conservative. My sister dropped the vegetarianism in the middle of her marriage with no problems.

Its that other issue you should worry about.
posted by StickyCarpet at 1:57 PM on September 26, 2006

she wants kids and you do not ... WARNING WARNING ALIENS APPROACHING DANGER WILL SMITH!

Get used to wearing a condom.

How do you spell 18 years of child support.

It is amazing how easily seemingly inteligent women forget to take the pill or are unable to count to thirty.

J
posted by jannw at 2:03 PM on September 26, 2006

1. Your story sounds a lot like my story.

2. I am divorced, in significant part over an inability to come to a conclusive agreement regarding (a) whether and (b) when to have children.

3. Draw your own conclusions from this anecdote, whatever it is worth.
posted by theorique at 2:10 PM on September 26, 2006

Wow, although I agree with most of the responses that say you probably should be aligned on the children/no-children issue, I am absolutely shocked at the venom directed towards the girlfriend. First, people are acting like she's some horrible person for changing her mind on marriage and kids. Not so -- just as anon. is entitled to his view, she's entitled to hers, even if hers is different from what it was yesterday. Just as people disagree on issues of importance, people grow and change. As someone said above -- it's not about assigning fault, it just is what it is.

Second, people are awfully presumptuous about the influence of her family. "Your fiancee is a selfish, passive-aggressive baby who lets other people control what she thinks instead of being adult enough to make her own decisions. " Really? You were able to make this grand pronouncement from anon's AskMe post? Or are you psychic?
posted by pardonyou? at 2:13 PM on September 26, 2006 [4 favorites]

Along the lines of what others have said, I think the ideological issues are a red herring. I get the impression that you two could be completely on the same page but her family would still be finding reasons to run you down. Unless she can become immune to that sort of thing or is willing to turn her back on her family, that's what will break your relationship.
posted by kimota at 2:13 PM on September 26, 2006

Everyone's got the child issue nailed down, but I'd like to weigh in and say that I understand what you mean about the vegetarianism thing.

Perhaps if these other problems weren't a factor it would be no big deal, but since they ARE, this just seems like one more demonstration of how a person can grow furher and further away from the person you fell in love with, rght before your very eyes. It must seem like a sign of unpredictibility and instability, and depending on your views about eating meat, weakness.

Aside from what it may say about her principles and constitution, the whole meat/veg thing DOES really have an impact on couples' lives, as far as meals at home are concerned. You can't have every meal in a restaurant, each ordering what you like. If you get married you'll have household expenses and cookng chores to deal with, and .

I'm a vegetarian living with a non. We don't ever eat together, and if I cook dinner I cook it assuming that I'm eating it alone. Considering that I love to cook, I really hate this aspect of our relationship.I was raised with a family dinner hour, and am used to an evening meal being a time to enjoy each other's company. Instead we just scrounge up our own meals, often at different times. At least for us it has always been this way, so I knew what I was getting into, but if he had started out one way and ended up another, it would have been a real turn-off.

Also, if you choose not to eat meat but see yourself spending money on it all the same in order to provide for your partner, that can be a violation of your principles too (depending on your reasons for your diet). Some vegetarians and vegans will not cook meat to serve to others, nor would they want to touch meat while doing the dishes. There are a lot of ways in which this could really create some tension between people who share finances and living space.

Be glad that these bombs are dropping now before you're married, while there's still time to sort it out. I think you're entitled to be able to tell her that all these changes really concern you, that it's hard to predict how you will feel about being married to her for keeps when she is obviously in the middle of a series of large changes in her life, and that you guys have a lot to work out before taking any vows.
posted by hermitosis at 2:24 PM on September 26, 2006 [2 favorites]

Do you really want a to lead a life where you've been derided into abandoning your values?
posted by orthogonality at 2:25 PM on September 26, 2006

The issues of her securing a proposal of marriage by threat, and the bait-and-switch she's pulled on you, and enlisting her family to bully you about vegetarianism and kids, are secondary, kids are a deal breaker, you shouldn't be with her if she wants kids and she shouldn't be with you if she wants kids. You'd be an idiot to go through with this marriage (this is coming from someone who disagrees with all three of your ideals). End it and move on.
posted by nanojath at 2:32 PM on September 26, 2006

Ditto the kids issue, two comments:

1) If you're even thinking about an ultimatum it's already over, all but the crying.

2) I'm a carnivore living with a pescetarian and the simple realities of it are that when we eat together, we don't do meat. When neither of us are cooking, we each eat what we like. For me, what's important about the arrangement isn't that I get to eat meat, but my gf's acceptance that we have different diets and That's OK.

3) (OK, I lied) You are in a relationship with a person, not his or her family. If that person can't see, accept and make that distinction you are headed for trouble, everything else aside. That you feel it doesn't make it so, but it does make it an issue.
posted by Skorgu at 2:35 PM on September 26, 2006

There's nothing wrong in the least with either of you and it escapes me why people feel compelled to always pick sides in these things instead of understanding that people can just be different but: you have different expectations regarding kids. If you can't honestly reconcile that between the two of you just don't get married, please.

The family's current involvement is not a good sign at all - she may well sense an impending breakup and be preparing post-breakup support should it happen - so that along with the she's changing / you're not thing, would make it sound like you're on the way out to be replaced by someone more 'mature' as the family will put it. (mature meaning ready for fatherhood and will join us for turkey at thanksgiving).
posted by scheptech at 2:42 PM on September 26, 2006

You need to tell her that she can choose you, or what her family wants.

If she doesn't want you, tell her to blow
posted by Megafly at 2:44 PM on September 26, 2006

Your relationship is changing from a partnership of equals into one in which her needs are expected to come first. I probably differ from most of the other posters here in that I believe that can be healthy and normal. The question is whether or not you personally can be happy in such an arrangement. This question is also closely related to the decision to have kids. Can you put another person's happiness before your own, every day?
posted by teleskiving at 2:55 PM on September 26, 2006

Dude condolences. People change over time. If you were not in a relationship and you met this girl tomorrow and were introduced to her views on reproduction, marriage, her family and her relationship with her family- do you think that you would fall in love with her and want to spend your life with her?

Best of luck in making the choice.
posted by Gratishades at 3:01 PM on September 26, 2006

My take on this is that it is quite likely that your gf and her family have a better understanding of the relationship than random MeFites do. And their saying "grow-up" implies that she has outgrown you.

Yes, I would think the two of you are better apart, to seek new relationships which suit you better. But you may have more success if you realise that this is not "all her fault", and that it is unreasonable to expect her to climb back into her box and seal the lid. Learning and growing and changing is part of normal human life.
posted by Idcoytco at 3:25 PM on September 26, 2006 [1 favorite]

How hot is she?

Yeah, yeah, it's an unserious remark about a serious topic, but take it a little bit broader. Is the relationship mostly good or mostly bad? While a lot of people will tell you to break up if things aren't exactly perfect, there are a lot of things that you can get along with differing opinions on. Though AskMe as a whole subscribes to the band-aid theory of relationships, if things are going well now, why not delay the inevitable? Hence the hotness question— if she's really hot, wouldn't you rather be with her until a collapse later than getting out now?

On the whole, though, this relationship seems like it's coming to an ugly end. The family gossip, the pressuring, the ultimatums— those are the things to worry over, not the changing of her mind. And I hear ya with the vegetarianism thing. I've had a girl go back to eating meat while I was dating her, and it presaged the end of the relationship as she distanced herself from me. (It's also one of those things where I'm not sure I'd want to live with a meat eater, though if she were really smoking attractive, I'd put up with it. Luckily, I found a hot vegetarian girl).

The only thing that I think I'd want to make sure got kicked into your head with both feet is that there is absolutely no way that you should marry her until these issues are resolved, either through communication or couples' counselling. Too much added detriment for, what, lace fripperies and church bells? Fuck that, friend. No marriage before getting all of this cleaned up, and if that means breaking the engagement and getting out of there, so be it.

Unless she's a supermodel and a MacArthur genius grant winner. Then go ahead and get married.
posted by klangklangston at 3:27 PM on September 26, 2006

Her trying to change you isn't a good thing. She doesn't want to accept you as you are; she believes she can change you by putting pressure on you; she thinks it's okay to do this.

This is a good time to tell her, "This is me. I'm always going to be this way" -- and to realize that she's not going to change in fundamental ways, either.
posted by wryly at 4:19 PM on September 26, 2006

"she might accidentally choose to stay with you and pretend she doesn't want kids."

Accidentally? You mean, lie that she'll go without kids and then oops him?

Seriously, it's time to break up. Once someone turns to the "I want kids" side, most likely forever will it dominate their destiny.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:25 PM on September 26, 2006

I second what people have said about it being important to sort out the kids/no kids debate BEFORE getting married.

What I mostly want to say is this: you can live with someone whose ideology is different if, and only if, there is mutual respect for each other's choices. Compromises (eg "OK, I'll eat vegetarian while in the house," "Cool, then I'll cook you your favourite veg meal!") can only be arrived at through that kind of respect.

The "grow up" stuff you cited above implies that she (and, less importantly, her family) lacks respect for those of your choices that no longer match hers. You may or may not respect her decision to be an omnivore, either. That will matter in the long run-- not as much as the Reproduction Debate, but some.

Good luck.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:34 PM on September 26, 2006

These aren't ideological issues - presumably you don't think everybody else is wrong to get married or have children, just that it isn't right for you. It's completely possible for a relationship to survive ideological differences. It's vastly more difficult for a relationship to survive such serious differences in life decisions.

I would be concerned that her family does not appear to respect you. This is not a deal-breaker since you won't be living with her family, but she has to have your back on this. If she takes her family's side every time, and indeed seems to be creating the conflicts to begin with, that's really bad news for the relationship.

The kids thing is the biggest thing, of course. Even if she were perfect in every other way, you shouldn't have kids to make somebody else happy. It's a lousy thing to do to your own children.

You need to respect her desire for children, if indeed that's what she wants and isn't just what her parents want and she's been taught to think all adults do. You do not need to provide those children for her.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:41 PM on September 26, 2006

i feel that people are being too judgemental of his girlfriend, also ... it is not wrong for her to have kids ... it is not wrong for her to want to be married instead of living together

she is entitled to want marriage and kids out of life, but she is not entitled to have them from anon if anon doesn't want that ... and anon is not entitled to keep her marriageless and kidless if she doesn't want that

i do believe that she should not be dragging her family into this ... it's my hunch that if the two of you stay together and resolve this, that she may continue to do this and that's going to be a major problem

look ... either the two of you are compatable in these things or you aren't ... you can't be half-pregnant or half-married

only you can decide whether you want to give in or want to break up ... and that is the choice i think you're going to have to make
posted by pyramid termite at 5:13 PM on September 26, 2006

The problem isn't so much differing on issues, as how you handle differing on issues. That your fianceé is consulting her family before you, on big issues like your plans for having children and then allowing them to put pressure on you is a terrible recipe for conflict resolution. I think it was John Gottman's research which pointed out that how a couple communicate and resolve conflict was a major predictor of whether they would divorce or not. The four key things he identified as relationship killers were criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and withdrawal. Here I'm afraid you seem to be reporting criticism, contempt and very poor handling of differences. That needs to be addressed. Contempt from your partner can feel like acid eating away at you - that your partner is failing to address her family showing their contempt for you is a very poor sign. I would suggest that you back off from the divisive content and try focussing on the way these differences have been handled instead. Try to come to some agreement on how to handle differences - eg. that the matter is discussed first of all between yourselves and that neither party tolerates their family criticising or belittling their partner about their beliefs or decisions, whatever they think on the subject. Best of luck!
posted by Flitcraft at 6:24 PM on September 26, 2006

It looks like she is training you well. Some people like this, some don't. It's the nature of marriage - someone has got to give. You just need to decide if it's going to be you.

But, if it starts now, it will never stop.
posted by four panels at 6:32 PM on September 26, 2006

Secondly, I have a feeling 1.she has always wanted to get married and 2. she has always wanted kids. She just played along until the time was right.

Maybe I'm too cynical. But, just make sure I'm being too cynical and you're not being naive.
posted by four panels at 6:35 PM on September 26, 2006

I know this has been said a million times in the thread, but...well, here's a million and one:

The kids issue is a deal breaker. In that context, none of the other issues matter. All that will happen if you stay together in spite of that is that one or the other of you will be resentful of the other, and your relationship will ultimately be doomed anyway.

It sucks, but those are the facts (or at least the highest probabilities). There's not really any "working through" that kind of difference, I'm sorry to say.

Now, as to the rest:

I'm seeing warning signs all over the place and we have attempted to discuss these issues but with her family weighing in and her resilience it has become increasingly apparent that my opinions or ideals no longer matter and I'm not sure what to do.

Are you sure you don't know what to do? Would you like to be in a relationship of mutual respect? Do you want to be in a relationship where you have to ask your partner to respect you? These are questions you have to answer for yourself. But I think that when you do, you'll know how to proceed.

Best of luck to you.
posted by Brak at 7:25 PM on September 26, 2006

I third thirteenkiller's advice and want to add this: if you do stay together because she tells you she's willing to accept no kids, consider taking charge of your own contraception method. I don't know your girlfriend, and I sincerely apologize if this is off-base, but people have a funny way of romanticizing pregnancy. The most honest people can convince themselves "it's okay if I'm a bit sloppy with the birth control pill, because I know if I got pregnant anonymous would end up loving the kid, being a fantastic father, and we'd all be one big happy family."

I just had to repeat lalex's comment here, because it is extremely, extremely important.
posted by nightchrome at 7:38 PM on September 26, 2006

I'm 41 and I've heard that "oh you'll grow up" or "when you're older you'll realize [blank]." But I'm still the same person, with basically the same ideas and goals and lifestyle. In many ways, I'm even more the way I was, if that makes any sense.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 8:27 PM on September 26, 2006

i feel that people are being too judgemental of his girlfriend, also ... it is not wrong for her to have kids ... it is not wrong for her to want to be married instead of living together

Actually, no, I don't think so.. Her changing her mind isn't the kicker. The kicker is that she's discussing these things with her family before she even broaches it with him. Her family, which clearly despises him. and whom she's been using as a Greek chorus for her own decisions -- which should have been hashed out with him first.
posted by canine epigram at 7:15 AM on September 27, 2006

If she doesn't go back-to-back with you when faced with OUTSIDE influence (her family is outside), dump her. She's being manipulative and immature. I'm sick of hearing about women who think a 'partner' is someone to manipulate and use (a friend just split with his gf who was behaving similar).

The issues themselves are what they are. But the behavior over the issues is not acceptable. She isn't on your side.
posted by Goofyy at 7:29 AM on September 27, 2006

If she doesn't go back-to-back with you when faced with OUTSIDE influence (her family is outside), dump her. She's being manipulative and immature. I'm sick of hearing about women who think a 'partner' is someone to manipulate and use (a friend just split with his gf who was behaving similar).

I'm sorry, I think you're in way over your head. There's no "my country [boyfriend], right or wrong" rule. Her obligation is to determine what she wants; if that happens to coincide with her family, tough noogies for the bf. It may make the relationship intolerable, and they may have to split up, but it doesn't make her wrong (let alone immature or manipulative). And your tone has the whiff of misogyny, too (men don't manipulate and use women on these issues?)
posted by pardonyou? at 8:03 AM on September 27, 2006

There's no "my country [boyfriend], right or wrong" rule.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:03 AM EST on September 27

Well, of course not, but that doesn't make her behaviour okay. The appropriate way to deal with a family who agrees with you and browbeats your fiance about it is to say to your family, "I think this is something Fiance and I need to discuss alone" and then enforce that.

I'm not saying she has to agree with him, or that she can't talk to her family about her issues with her boyfriend. But she shouldn't be letting them say disrespectful things like, "oh, grow up" to him nor should they be present when she discusses this stuff with him.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:45 PM on September 27, 2006

You're an idealogue, you really have to be in a relationship with someone with a similar lifestyle. This shouldn't be impossible to find, but it doesn't help that you (for better or worse) have a pretty fringe lifestyle.

Your current fiancee sounds to be moving towards the mainstream of society, and definitely away from you. She might be wrong to do this, but more likely she is just realizing what her true life goals are as she ages.

She might be being selfish, and if so, she's being no more selfish than you are yourself.

You might be being childish, but again I wouldn't say so.

However, it would be both childish and selfish for either of you to try to force the other to ignore their life goals for the sake of themself.

Without additional flexibility from one or both of you, your relationship has no future, and the best thing to do is move on to something more fulfilling for each of you. This will probably be a lot easier for your fiancee, as she's moving towards a lifestyle compatible with a far larger portion of society.

Don't hold on to old ideas just because you're ashamed to admit you might have been wrong. I mean, hell, you might have made some of your most fundamental choices when you were a stupid naive teenager. (Or you might have the perfect lifestyle for you.)

Be true to yourself.
posted by The Monkey at 11:38 PM on September 29, 2006 [2 favorites]