God as a measure of human pain?
July 2, 2006 4:14 PM Subscribe
"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." What did John Lennon mean by this?
In the song "God" on the Plastic Ono Band album, Lennon lists the things and people he no longer believes in and concludes dramatically with the above statement (twice). What did he mean by this? I have always believed that a person's need for God is correlated with the amount of inner turmoil they are experiencing due to traumatic events or upbringing. Is there a philosophy, science or religion which embodies this concept? And had Lennon thought this through in depth or was he just jumping on the Dylan bandwagon when Dylan proclaimed "Don't follow leaders. Watch your parking meters" ?
In the song "God" on the Plastic Ono Band album, Lennon lists the things and people he no longer believes in and concludes dramatically with the above statement (twice). What did he mean by this? I have always believed that a person's need for God is correlated with the amount of inner turmoil they are experiencing due to traumatic events or upbringing. Is there a philosophy, science or religion which embodies this concept? And had Lennon thought this through in depth or was he just jumping on the Dylan bandwagon when Dylan proclaimed "Don't follow leaders. Watch your parking meters" ?
Perhaps something similar to Marx's formulation about religion. The sentence before his famous "opium of the masses" statement reads: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."
I've always found those less-quoted words to sound more understanding and, indeed, compassionate, than the almost spiteful sounding words about "opium" (when removed of their context).
Perhaps Lennon meant that since the world often doesn't seem to care, we need some sort of god or God to take note of it, to "measure" it. But I'm just speculating. Lennon had a lot of influences, and the Marxist influence (link to an interview where he discusses it) is just one of them. But I doubt Lennon got his atheism from Marx. Maybe Lenin did...
posted by Gnatcho at 4:38 PM on July 2, 2006
I've always found those less-quoted words to sound more understanding and, indeed, compassionate, than the almost spiteful sounding words about "opium" (when removed of their context).
Perhaps Lennon meant that since the world often doesn't seem to care, we need some sort of god or God to take note of it, to "measure" it. But I'm just speculating. Lennon had a lot of influences, and the Marxist influence (link to an interview where he discusses it) is just one of them. But I doubt Lennon got his atheism from Marx. Maybe Lenin did...
posted by Gnatcho at 4:38 PM on July 2, 2006
I guess he was referring to the fact God is often the name invoked by those who are in dire situations, desperate. Therefore the more times one calls for God, the greater the desperation ; so 2 calls for God, 3 calls for God, God becomes the measure of pain. It's interesting he slipped in the idea God is a concept.
posted by elpapacito at 4:47 PM on July 2, 2006
posted by elpapacito at 4:47 PM on July 2, 2006
Elie Wiesel wrote that the silence of God is God
posted by matteo at 4:59 PM on July 2, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by matteo at 4:59 PM on July 2, 2006 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Interesting, zaebiz. I've always heard the lyrics as "God is a concept by which we can measure our pain," which is a subtle but possibly significant difference... turning it into an assertion that this is one possible use for the God-concept but not the only one.
The laundry list of everything John claims not to believe in (ranging from the Bible to Jesus to Kennedy to the Beatles) can be read/heard as a systematic stripping away of beliefs and defenses. It is probably no coincidence that the album on which it appears ("Plastic Ono Band") was released in 1970, immediately after the public acknowledgement of the breakup of the Beatles, but also right after John and Yoko had done Arthur Janov's Primal Scream therapy.
posted by enrevanche at 5:23 PM on July 2, 2006
The laundry list of everything John claims not to believe in (ranging from the Bible to Jesus to Kennedy to the Beatles) can be read/heard as a systematic stripping away of beliefs and defenses. It is probably no coincidence that the album on which it appears ("Plastic Ono Band") was released in 1970, immediately after the public acknowledgement of the breakup of the Beatles, but also right after John and Yoko had done Arthur Janov's Primal Scream therapy.
posted by enrevanche at 5:23 PM on July 2, 2006
If God is the ultimate good, then God defines what the nature of 'good' is and, of course, by existing, defintes its opposite, 'bad'. Every condition or experience can be compared to the imagined ideal of perfect good, as embodied in the concept of god. The degree of difference from the ultimate good determines how bad (painful) a condition is. Seems to make simple sense. That's how you measure pain -- how far is the condition you're experiencing from the ideal condition of ultimate good?
posted by Miko at 5:31 PM on July 2, 2006
posted by Miko at 5:31 PM on July 2, 2006
If God is the ultimate good
I'm by no means a religious person and I hope this isn't a particularly naive or ignorant question, but I've never heard this statement before. Is this really a common belief? (Note, it's the word "good" that bothers me here--I have heard the first 5 words (as a concept) many times.)
posted by dobbs at 5:48 PM on July 2, 2006
I'm by no means a religious person and I hope this isn't a particularly naive or ignorant question, but I've never heard this statement before. Is this really a common belief? (Note, it's the word "good" that bothers me here--I have heard the first 5 words (as a concept) many times.)
posted by dobbs at 5:48 PM on July 2, 2006
I think he meant "if you need to appeal to God, then you must already be up shit creek... otherwise you wouldn't bother and just carry on with your life".
ie. the more god you need, the more pain you must have in your life.
posted by selton at 6:01 PM on July 2, 2006
ie. the more god you need, the more pain you must have in your life.
posted by selton at 6:01 PM on July 2, 2006
"...Is this really a common belief?"
Yes, some people belive that the statement "god is the greatest good" proves that he exists, however it is really just as meaningless as saying "my last meal was the most sumptuous".
posted by 517 at 6:04 PM on July 2, 2006
Yes, some people belive that the statement "god is the greatest good" proves that he exists, however it is really just as meaningless as saying "my last meal was the most sumptuous".
posted by 517 at 6:04 PM on July 2, 2006
Since God is literally our conception of perfection, everything else is less. I think pain in this sense could be taken to mean the agony that arises from our imperfect (ungodly) life and our apparent separation from God, which is the source of all bliss.
posted by doctor_negative at 6:20 PM on July 2, 2006
posted by doctor_negative at 6:20 PM on July 2, 2006
What doc negative said. Myversion wasn't nice and clear like that.
posted by Miko at 6:30 PM on July 2, 2006
posted by Miko at 6:30 PM on July 2, 2006
When we are seized by long-lasting emotional pain, pain with no earthly solution, pain that leaves us impotent and reeling, we tend to look outward for answers. We want this suffering to have some kind of meaning, to be consistent with a larger worldview, which would make that pain understandable. By putting the pain into perspective, we gain a sense of control over it.
Most people in this world are religious -- I am not -- and would tend to use their religious beliefs as that larger worldview that would give meaning to their suffering.
It's very difficult to go through life believing that your suffering and the reasons for it are totally random and uncontrollable, that the universe could basically give a fiddler's fuck about you and that your pain has no meaning.
So people turn to (their) God and make him a measure of their pain.
That's my guess.
posted by jason's_planet at 7:01 PM on July 2, 2006
Most people in this world are religious -- I am not -- and would tend to use their religious beliefs as that larger worldview that would give meaning to their suffering.
It's very difficult to go through life believing that your suffering and the reasons for it are totally random and uncontrollable, that the universe could basically give a fiddler's fuck about you and that your pain has no meaning.
So people turn to (their) God and make him a measure of their pain.
That's my guess.
posted by jason's_planet at 7:01 PM on July 2, 2006
Best answer: Maybe this:
Only through my continuing journey down my own spiritual path, I have come to interpret his words like this: When we are truly in pain, we turn to God. We reach out in prayer to hopefully bring an end to our suffering. For many, this is the only time there is a clear awareness of God, and that urgent need becomes the 'measuring stick of our pain.'posted by kirkaracha at 11:32 PM on July 2, 2006
Lennon actually spoke about the lyric directly in interviews; there are lots of them from around 1970 in books and magazines you can find. Here's one apparent quote from a quick search:
“Our pain is the pain we go through all the time. You’re born in pain, and pain is what we’re in most of the time. And I think that the bigger the pain, the more gods we need. It was my own revelation. I just know that’s what I know.”
It's definitely related to the primal scream stuff; he'd kept a lot of pain and anger locked inside for years.
posted by mediareport at 11:33 PM on July 2, 2006
“Our pain is the pain we go through all the time. You’re born in pain, and pain is what we’re in most of the time. And I think that the bigger the pain, the more gods we need. It was my own revelation. I just know that’s what I know.”
It's definitely related to the primal scream stuff; he'd kept a lot of pain and anger locked inside for years.
posted by mediareport at 11:33 PM on July 2, 2006
Yeah, here we go, in Rolling Stone:
"You're born in pain," Lennon told Rolling Stone in 1970, after he had just left the Beatles, "and pain is what we're in most of the time. And I think that the bigger the pain, the more gods we need."
Pretty much covers it, I think.
posted by mediareport at 11:37 PM on July 2, 2006
"You're born in pain," Lennon told Rolling Stone in 1970, after he had just left the Beatles, "and pain is what we're in most of the time. And I think that the bigger the pain, the more gods we need."
Pretty much covers it, I think.
posted by mediareport at 11:37 PM on July 2, 2006
My views regarding religion are similar to Gnatcho's and jason's_planet's views in the sense that see religion as an emotional crutch. But to answer your question, given the context of when this song was released, I always assumed he was talking about finally ridding himself of the burden of being a Beatle and mostly about his love for Yoko, being the one true thing he really believes in. Notice he doesn't outright say that he doesn't believe in God. Ultimately, God is what you make of it. He kinda made Yoko his God. God is a concept by which we can measure our pain... or lack thereof.
posted by freakystyley at 11:42 PM on July 2, 2006
posted by freakystyley at 11:42 PM on July 2, 2006
Best answer: Here's a better interview; Lennon talked to underground publishing folks (Tariq Ali!) in 1971. A more full quote:
JL: Well, [Janov's] thing is to feel the pain that's accumulated inside you ever since your childhood. I had to do it to really kill off all the religious myths. In the therapy you really feel every painful moment of your life - it's excruciating, you are forced to realise that your pain, the kind that makes you wake up afraid with your heart pounding, is really yours and not the result of somebody up in the sky. It's the result of your parents and your environment.
As I realised this it all started to fall into place. This therapy forced me to have done with all the God shit. All of us growing up have come to terms with too much pain. Although we repress it, it's still there. The worst pain is that of not being wanted, of realising your parents do not need you in the way you need them...
When you wake up and your heart is going like the clappers or your back feels strained, or you develop some other hang-up, you should let your mind go to the pain and the pain itself will regurgitate the memory which originally caused you to suppress it in your body. In this way the pain goes to the right channel instead of being repressed again, as it is if you take a pill or a bath, saying 'Well, I'll get over it'. Most people channel their pain into God or masturbation or some dream of making it...
But for me at any rate it was all part of dissolving the God trip or father-figure trip. Facing up to reality instead of always looking for some kind of heaven.
posted by mediareport at 12:00 AM on July 3, 2006
JL: Well, [Janov's] thing is to feel the pain that's accumulated inside you ever since your childhood. I had to do it to really kill off all the religious myths. In the therapy you really feel every painful moment of your life - it's excruciating, you are forced to realise that your pain, the kind that makes you wake up afraid with your heart pounding, is really yours and not the result of somebody up in the sky. It's the result of your parents and your environment.
As I realised this it all started to fall into place. This therapy forced me to have done with all the God shit. All of us growing up have come to terms with too much pain. Although we repress it, it's still there. The worst pain is that of not being wanted, of realising your parents do not need you in the way you need them...
When you wake up and your heart is going like the clappers or your back feels strained, or you develop some other hang-up, you should let your mind go to the pain and the pain itself will regurgitate the memory which originally caused you to suppress it in your body. In this way the pain goes to the right channel instead of being repressed again, as it is if you take a pill or a bath, saying 'Well, I'll get over it'. Most people channel their pain into God or masturbation or some dream of making it...
But for me at any rate it was all part of dissolving the God trip or father-figure trip. Facing up to reality instead of always looking for some kind of heaven.
posted by mediareport at 12:00 AM on July 3, 2006
Notice he doesn't outright say that he doesn't believe in God.
Er...yes he did. Repeatedly.
posted by mediareport at 12:01 AM on July 3, 2006
Er...yes he did. Repeatedly.
posted by mediareport at 12:01 AM on July 3, 2006
God is a conception of Love.
Pain is seperation from God.
God is the ultimate good, pure bliss.
Deviation from Good is Bad.
Deviation from God is Pain.
posted by Satapher at 12:15 AM on July 3, 2006
(sorry)
God is a conception of Love,
of ultimate good, of pure bliss.
Pain is seperation from God
Seperation has distance.
Distance can be measured.
Deviation from Good is Bad.
Deviation from God is Pain.
posted by Satapher at 12:34 AM on July 3, 2006
God is a conception of Love,
of ultimate good, of pure bliss.
Pain is seperation from God
Seperation has distance.
Distance can be measured.
Deviation from Good is Bad.
Deviation from God is Pain.
posted by Satapher at 12:34 AM on July 3, 2006
According to Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert's work, all psychological pain eventually goes away because something comes into replace it. This is the mind's doing. Because this happen over and over again (the mind always finds something to compensate for the pain) it is well beyond chance. To explain it people use the concept of god. I was always in pain over this problem, thank god I read his book and feel much better now.
posted by zackdog at 12:53 AM on July 3, 2006
posted by zackdog at 12:53 AM on July 3, 2006
But for me at any rate it was all part of dissolving the God trip or father-figure trip. Facing up to reality instead of always looking for some kind of heaven.
Well said.
posted by elpapacito at 2:55 AM on July 3, 2006
Well said.
posted by elpapacito at 2:55 AM on July 3, 2006
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posted by zaebiz at 4:21 PM on July 2, 2006