YouTube videos about cutting down refined sugars
September 22, 2024 10:15 PM
Looking for some good YouTube videos to send to my husband about why we need to cut down consumption of refined sugars for our health and why he needs to always read labels for nutrition and ingredients info because added sugar is hidden in almost everything.
I'm too frustrated to continue to try to explain basic nutrition to him. I've messaged our doctor to please attempt some "patient education" during my husband's next appointment, but given that my husband really likes watching educational content on YouTube, I'm thinking that could work too.
I have been completely unable to get through to my husband on this issue, but I admit that's probably largely due to my communication style (pointing at labels while yelling "I KNOW YOU CAN READ, SO WHY DON'T YOU???"), and thus something in the "friendly YouTuber breaks down a complicated topic in an educational and persuasive manner" format would likely work much better.
Latest of many examples: He went to the store for fruit juice and came home with "fruit punch juice drink" that's per the ingredients list is actually just sugar water with a splash of juice in it. It has literally as much sugar per volume as soda and not enough vitamin C to even appear on the nutritional label, but he still thinks he made a "healthy" beverage choice.
Meanwhile, we're both on "weight loss drugs" that are actually originally diabetes medications, and yet he doesn't seem able to grasp how stupidly counterproductive it is to go through all the trouble of injecting ourselves with medications to regulate our blood sugar while continuing to dump massive amounts of refined sugars into our bodies.
I can't just take over getting all the groceries because I had a seizure in July and am not allowed to drive for six months.
In general, my husband greatly prefers watching videos or listening to podcasts to reading, but my misophonia makes most video and audio content intolerable, so I can't just go find stuff for him myself.
So, if you personally ever saw a YouTube video that gave you a major "wake up call" with regards to the hazards of refined sugar, and changed your behavior after watching it, what was that video?
Thanks!
I'm too frustrated to continue to try to explain basic nutrition to him. I've messaged our doctor to please attempt some "patient education" during my husband's next appointment, but given that my husband really likes watching educational content on YouTube, I'm thinking that could work too.
I have been completely unable to get through to my husband on this issue, but I admit that's probably largely due to my communication style (pointing at labels while yelling "I KNOW YOU CAN READ, SO WHY DON'T YOU???"), and thus something in the "friendly YouTuber breaks down a complicated topic in an educational and persuasive manner" format would likely work much better.
Latest of many examples: He went to the store for fruit juice and came home with "fruit punch juice drink" that's per the ingredients list is actually just sugar water with a splash of juice in it. It has literally as much sugar per volume as soda and not enough vitamin C to even appear on the nutritional label, but he still thinks he made a "healthy" beverage choice.
Meanwhile, we're both on "weight loss drugs" that are actually originally diabetes medications, and yet he doesn't seem able to grasp how stupidly counterproductive it is to go through all the trouble of injecting ourselves with medications to regulate our blood sugar while continuing to dump massive amounts of refined sugars into our bodies.
I can't just take over getting all the groceries because I had a seizure in July and am not allowed to drive for six months.
In general, my husband greatly prefers watching videos or listening to podcasts to reading, but my misophonia makes most video and audio content intolerable, so I can't just go find stuff for him myself.
So, if you personally ever saw a YouTube video that gave you a major "wake up call" with regards to the hazards of refined sugar, and changed your behavior after watching it, what was that video?
Thanks!
Three YouTubers I like, all various levels of informative to entertaining:
Abbey Sharp - big on intuitive eating mixed with data driven reasonableness, has a history of ED and makes a lot of effort to be inclusive and kind. Definitely more on the yoga and protein smoothies end of things, but a very good explainer of lots of foundational nutrition concepts.
Kylie Sakaida - young and cheerful combined with highly knowledgeable. Personal experience with IBS, multicultural diet challenges, and very low effort ways of getting nutrition into the body. Lots of great middle ground approaches to getting increased fiber, making slightly better incremental choices, and many fresh, delicious ideas.
Nutrition Made Simple aka Dr. Carvalho - extremely facts and data driven. Fantastic at breaking down very complex medical information and study results. Much more generalized information, and less focus on specific recipes or ingredients. Definitely my favorite for calming my personal anxiety because I love knowing the current science of things. But also much less of a bubbly pretty woman talking about chia seeds.
posted by Mizu at 12:41 AM on September 23
Abbey Sharp - big on intuitive eating mixed with data driven reasonableness, has a history of ED and makes a lot of effort to be inclusive and kind. Definitely more on the yoga and protein smoothies end of things, but a very good explainer of lots of foundational nutrition concepts.
Kylie Sakaida - young and cheerful combined with highly knowledgeable. Personal experience with IBS, multicultural diet challenges, and very low effort ways of getting nutrition into the body. Lots of great middle ground approaches to getting increased fiber, making slightly better incremental choices, and many fresh, delicious ideas.
Nutrition Made Simple aka Dr. Carvalho - extremely facts and data driven. Fantastic at breaking down very complex medical information and study results. Much more generalized information, and less focus on specific recipes or ingredients. Definitely my favorite for calming my personal anxiety because I love knowing the current science of things. But also much less of a bubbly pretty woman talking about chia seeds.
posted by Mizu at 12:41 AM on September 23
There is a cross over between those who talk about sugar and those who talk about intermittent fasting - with specific relation to type 2 diabetes - because of the role of insulin and other hormones. I would recommend nephrologist, Dr Jason Fung's talks in that regard.
The late Michael Mosleys lecture on How to Stay Healthy is also a great presentation. Note how this begins with a specific explanation of how an apparently healthy airline breakfast - contains a mountain of sugar.
posted by rongorongo at 2:05 AM on September 23
The late Michael Mosleys lecture on How to Stay Healthy is also a great presentation. Note how this begins with a specific explanation of how an apparently healthy airline breakfast - contains a mountain of sugar.
posted by rongorongo at 2:05 AM on September 23
Robert Lustig has some great videos on YouTube. Highly recommend his videos. He’s an endocrinologist, and has some very convincing arguments. They worked for me! Our entire family has changed our eating habits.
posted by I_love_the_rain at 2:17 AM on September 23
posted by I_love_the_rain at 2:17 AM on September 23
"Caveat: this effort will go better for YOU if you can eliminate any expectations that he'll actually change his behavior."
His behavior affects me because he is the one responsible for getting groceries while I'm unable to drive, so if he brings home a bunch of sugary crap then I have nothing to healthy eat.
I already have insulin resistance and am in danger of developing type 2 diabetes if I don't turn things around.
He knows that my doctors have warned me to cut back sugar and carbs or I'll become diabetic, but he keeps bringing massive amounts of sugary food into the house. When I ask him "what the fuck," his explanations are a) he didn't think and/or b) he didn't realize the food had that much sugar in it.
Another example: when I asked him to bring home a variety of protein bars for me to sample so that I could hopefully find a few that don't taste gross to stock up on for when I need something quick to eat, 80+% of the bars he bought had as much sugar as a candy bar.
He said he didn't know he needed to look at the nutritional labels. He just went to the protein bar section of the store. Same with the sugar water he bought today -- he said it was in the juice section and it said juice on the label. I pointed out no, it says "fruit punch juice drink" and that "juice drink" is not the same as "juice."
I have told him over and over and over again that he needs to read the labels not just go grab something from the "right section" of the store. But it's not sticking.
He's normally pretty smart (he's currently in his second year of law school) but when it comes to food and nutrition it's like he just switches off his brain. Like he thought "brown rice" was just white rice that had soy sauce added to it to color it brown.
I do not know how to educate a 46-year-old man on basic nutritional info that everyone else learned in 7th grade health class. Especially when he doesn't seem to retain anything that I tell him on this subject no matter how many times we've talked about it.
He even tried to claim that he'd "never studied nutrition" but he used to be a certified personal trainer! I pulled out his textbooks that he studied to pass the certification exam and there's a 60+ page section just on nutrition! With bookmarks with his handwritten notes tucked in between the pages of that section!
I don't think it's deliberate weaponized incompetence or malicious sabotage of my health or anything like that. When I showed him proof in his own handwriting in his personal trainer textbooks that he had, in fact, "studied nutrition" as recently as 5 years ago, he was genuinely disturbed by the hard proof that he'd studied it and said he sincerely didn't remember nutrition being in the books or on the exam. I believe him.
So, clearly, he has some sort of psychological block that's making him forget nutrition-related information almost as quickly as he learns it. This isn't a general learning disability as he's passing his law school classes just fine, although he does have a disability accommodation to get all his textbooks in audiobook format.
Since he retains all sorts of random trivia from YouTube videos and podcasts, I'm hoping that receiving the information via his preferred format will help it stick.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:52 AM on September 23
His behavior affects me because he is the one responsible for getting groceries while I'm unable to drive, so if he brings home a bunch of sugary crap then I have nothing to healthy eat.
I already have insulin resistance and am in danger of developing type 2 diabetes if I don't turn things around.
He knows that my doctors have warned me to cut back sugar and carbs or I'll become diabetic, but he keeps bringing massive amounts of sugary food into the house. When I ask him "what the fuck," his explanations are a) he didn't think and/or b) he didn't realize the food had that much sugar in it.
Another example: when I asked him to bring home a variety of protein bars for me to sample so that I could hopefully find a few that don't taste gross to stock up on for when I need something quick to eat, 80+% of the bars he bought had as much sugar as a candy bar.
He said he didn't know he needed to look at the nutritional labels. He just went to the protein bar section of the store. Same with the sugar water he bought today -- he said it was in the juice section and it said juice on the label. I pointed out no, it says "fruit punch juice drink" and that "juice drink" is not the same as "juice."
I have told him over and over and over again that he needs to read the labels not just go grab something from the "right section" of the store. But it's not sticking.
He's normally pretty smart (he's currently in his second year of law school) but when it comes to food and nutrition it's like he just switches off his brain. Like he thought "brown rice" was just white rice that had soy sauce added to it to color it brown.
I do not know how to educate a 46-year-old man on basic nutritional info that everyone else learned in 7th grade health class. Especially when he doesn't seem to retain anything that I tell him on this subject no matter how many times we've talked about it.
He even tried to claim that he'd "never studied nutrition" but he used to be a certified personal trainer! I pulled out his textbooks that he studied to pass the certification exam and there's a 60+ page section just on nutrition! With bookmarks with his handwritten notes tucked in between the pages of that section!
I don't think it's deliberate weaponized incompetence or malicious sabotage of my health or anything like that. When I showed him proof in his own handwriting in his personal trainer textbooks that he had, in fact, "studied nutrition" as recently as 5 years ago, he was genuinely disturbed by the hard proof that he'd studied it and said he sincerely didn't remember nutrition being in the books or on the exam. I believe him.
So, clearly, he has some sort of psychological block that's making him forget nutrition-related information almost as quickly as he learns it. This isn't a general learning disability as he's passing his law school classes just fine, although he does have a disability accommodation to get all his textbooks in audiobook format.
Since he retains all sorts of random trivia from YouTube videos and podcasts, I'm hoping that receiving the information via his preferred format will help it stick.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:52 AM on September 23
I'm guessing his weird food and nutrition issues are more bad code installed by his parents. They really did a number of him, and we're constantly discovering new triggers and blindspots. Like it took a few years for him to stop frantically apologizing every time I "made a weird face" because he assumed I was mad at him for whatever he just did, when I was actually not paying any attention to what he was doing at all and usually the "weird face" was because my clothes were itchy or some other benign internal thing that he was unaware of.
So I am fairly confident that him constantly bringing home massive amounts of sugar despite me asking him 100+ times to please stop is genuine psychological fuckedupedness from his upbringing and not him deliberately screwing with me. Every other time he's repeatedly done something counterproductive despite repeated conversations about it, it's turned out to be a trauma thing.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:16 AM on September 23
So I am fairly confident that him constantly bringing home massive amounts of sugar despite me asking him 100+ times to please stop is genuine psychological fuckedupedness from his upbringing and not him deliberately screwing with me. Every other time he's repeatedly done something counterproductive despite repeated conversations about it, it's turned out to be a trauma thing.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:16 AM on September 23
I watch sugar content too. I will say that 100% fruit juice (while I prefer it for what I guess are food-snob reasons) is often as sugary as soda, and most protein bars are also very very sweet. Brown rice gives me carb crash almost as badly as white rice because it's still rice, plus a little more fiber and nutrients. These are frustrating truths.
I think for something like protein bars, you will need to do some research to find the few specific brands that are low in sugar and tell him to get some of those. For most other things, it's classes of foods (like, things that are less sugary or carby by nature--proteins, vegetables, etc) that will make a difference vs reading labels, and making him read every label on processed food is going to be an exercise in frustration with low payoff.
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:23 AM on September 23
I think for something like protein bars, you will need to do some research to find the few specific brands that are low in sugar and tell him to get some of those. For most other things, it's classes of foods (like, things that are less sugary or carby by nature--proteins, vegetables, etc) that will make a difference vs reading labels, and making him read every label on processed food is going to be an exercise in frustration with low payoff.
posted by needs more cowbell at 4:23 AM on September 23
This guy lays out basically what you're saying in the first minute and then works through purchasing for a variety of meals. (You can click [...more] on the info box then [Show transcript] to scan through instead of listening.)
Unfortunately a fair amount of effort has been directed at making this exact task as difficult as possible for the average consumer, like having amounts listed by arbitrary "serving size" instead of by a standard amount.
posted by lucidium at 4:25 AM on September 23
Unfortunately a fair amount of effort has been directed at making this exact task as difficult as possible for the average consumer, like having amounts listed by arbitrary "serving size" instead of by a standard amount.
posted by lucidium at 4:25 AM on September 23
While you're waiting for him to unblock on the sugar thing, can you do the shopping online and have him pick up what you've already ordered for curbside delivery? If y'all are still in Bellingham, it looks like the Safeway there still offers curbside delivery.
I know that this solution sucks -- I hate shopping online for food, but it might decouple the "educating husband" task from the "feeling helplessly dependent on somebody who's currently incompetent" immediate problem.
posted by Metasyntactic at 4:28 AM on September 23
I know that this solution sucks -- I hate shopping online for food, but it might decouple the "educating husband" task from the "feeling helplessly dependent on somebody who's currently incompetent" immediate problem.
posted by Metasyntactic at 4:28 AM on September 23
Yeah I was going to suggest you give him a list of specific brands in the short term because that just sucks for you at this point in your life. Another alternative is go with him and make it a nice outing.
With my kids (and my spouse who tended to grab the kids whatever they asked for) I actually went through the exercise of taking a fruit drink juice box or a Cliff bar, then reading the label, and then measuring out the teaspoons of sugar into a small glass bowl. It flipped the script.
(To answer the label question, no one in my husband’s family ever did.)
posted by warriorqueen at 4:41 AM on September 23
With my kids (and my spouse who tended to grab the kids whatever they asked for) I actually went through the exercise of taking a fruit drink juice box or a Cliff bar, then reading the label, and then measuring out the teaspoons of sugar into a small glass bowl. It flipped the script.
(To answer the label question, no one in my husband’s family ever did.)
posted by warriorqueen at 4:41 AM on September 23
Okay, I looked it up and he's the weird one, not me.
For a minute there, I thought this thread was going to turn into yet another discovery that I'm a total freak lol.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:52 AM on September 23
For a minute there, I thought this thread was going to turn into yet another discovery that I'm a total freak lol.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:52 AM on September 23
"You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know" (Weir/Barlow "Black Throated Wind")
Reading your post just kept me thinking about that line from a Grateful Dead song. It is clear to me that a 46 yo man who is in law school can learn what they want. He does not want to eliminate sugars. Send him all the YouTube videos you can, but I am, unfortunately, betting he will find some other excuse to not read the labels.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:04 AM on September 23
Reading your post just kept me thinking about that line from a Grateful Dead song. It is clear to me that a 46 yo man who is in law school can learn what they want. He does not want to eliminate sugars. Send him all the YouTube videos you can, but I am, unfortunately, betting he will find some other excuse to not read the labels.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 5:04 AM on September 23
To be clear, I think he's being difficult. Nevertheless I can see some reasons (school, lack of interest in reading, unaccustomed effort) why it's hard to get him to comply. If he doesn't like to read to learn as you said, then having to constantly read labels is going to be a challenge. (Is he dyslexic?)
SO: It would be best to give him a shopping list with specific brands/items.
Go to the online shopping portal for your store and make a list of staple items that you want to always have in stock that aren't garbage food. This may require a couple hours of time, but just once, and you can spread it out over a few days.
Now he just has a simple task to perform and no decisions to make. Buy the things on the list.
Change the system so that he can't fuck it up.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:12 AM on September 23
SO: It would be best to give him a shopping list with specific brands/items.
Go to the online shopping portal for your store and make a list of staple items that you want to always have in stock that aren't garbage food. This may require a couple hours of time, but just once, and you can spread it out over a few days.
Now he just has a simple task to perform and no decisions to make. Buy the things on the list.
Change the system so that he can't fuck it up.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:12 AM on September 23
[...] maybe he didn't look at that side of the package or the text was too small to read at arm's length. But it only takes a couple seconds to turn the package over and bring it close enough to glance at, so why is that so hard?
Oh. Um - he's 46? Early to mid-forties is when a lot of us (including me, and pretty much all my similarly aged friends) start to see our close-up vision deteriorate.
Especially if he wears glasses for distance, it's possible that part of what's going on is that he's starting to find it hard work to read small print... which he may not have consciously realised. It sneaks up on you. He may just feel a bit of reluctance to read the small stuff on the back of the package, without necessarily even registering that he feels that way.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 5:16 AM on September 23
Oh. Um - he's 46? Early to mid-forties is when a lot of us (including me, and pretty much all my similarly aged friends) start to see our close-up vision deteriorate.
Especially if he wears glasses for distance, it's possible that part of what's going on is that he's starting to find it hard work to read small print... which he may not have consciously realised. It sneaks up on you. He may just feel a bit of reluctance to read the small stuff on the back of the package, without necessarily even registering that he feels that way.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 5:16 AM on September 23
Didn't you just mention that he has an accomodation in law school because he doesn't absorb written information? That might have a little to do with it, yes.
And even as someone addicted to reading, no I don't usually look at nutritional information on regular purchases. It's purposefully cryptic and hard to compare and I do enough multicriteria analysis in my working life. This is why many EU countries recommend Nutriscore with a single letter grade.
Absent lobbying for a similar system, how about just defining some simple criteria for him? Not "something healthy to drink" but "100% juice with pulp" (which yeah, still has a high glycaemic index). "Protein bar with less than X grams of sugaee per 100". Make the cognitive process easier. I'm afraid finding video that presents exactly your criteria might be difficult, though "glycaemic index" might be a good place to start.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 5:29 AM on September 23
And even as someone addicted to reading, no I don't usually look at nutritional information on regular purchases. It's purposefully cryptic and hard to compare and I do enough multicriteria analysis in my working life. This is why many EU countries recommend Nutriscore with a single letter grade.
Absent lobbying for a similar system, how about just defining some simple criteria for him? Not "something healthy to drink" but "100% juice with pulp" (which yeah, still has a high glycaemic index). "Protein bar with less than X grams of sugaee per 100". Make the cognitive process easier. I'm afraid finding video that presents exactly your criteria might be difficult, though "glycaemic index" might be a good place to start.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 5:29 AM on September 23
Can you do the online shopping and he picks it up?
posted by Ardnamurchan at 5:53 AM on September 23
posted by Ardnamurchan at 5:53 AM on September 23
As a separate idea, I can't recommend a US app, but there are a couple over here that let you scan a product barcode with your phone and get a simple red-orange-green traffic light for sugar content / glycaemic index.
posted by lucidium at 5:55 AM on September 23
posted by lucidium at 5:55 AM on September 23
I personally read labels for most things. But it is largely food-snobbery or taste preferences (I want my potato products to be salty enough, and I don't like whole wheat bread that is sweet).
If I'm trying to watch my blood sugar to prevent spikes and crashes, buying (for example) tomato sauce with or without some added processed sugar is not going to make a meaningful difference so much as what I'm putting it on or the amount of pasta I'm putting in my bowl or eating salad with it to slow the blood sugar bump--and those things have nothing to do with reading labels. Drinking something that is 100% juice versus a juice drink with water and sugar is not going to make a meaningful difference versus drinking water or tea some of the time instead. So getting someone else to choose the 100% juice or find the tomato sauce without added sugar--versus getting that person on board with buying/preparing/eating different types of foods in general--specifically in service of better health seems like a way to make that person frustrated, with low payoff.
Are you wanting him to understand that consuming too much sugar is harmful, or are you wanting him to read labels and choose different processed foods? Those are basically different things.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:15 AM on September 23
If I'm trying to watch my blood sugar to prevent spikes and crashes, buying (for example) tomato sauce with or without some added processed sugar is not going to make a meaningful difference so much as what I'm putting it on or the amount of pasta I'm putting in my bowl or eating salad with it to slow the blood sugar bump--and those things have nothing to do with reading labels. Drinking something that is 100% juice versus a juice drink with water and sugar is not going to make a meaningful difference versus drinking water or tea some of the time instead. So getting someone else to choose the 100% juice or find the tomato sauce without added sugar--versus getting that person on board with buying/preparing/eating different types of foods in general--specifically in service of better health seems like a way to make that person frustrated, with low payoff.
Are you wanting him to understand that consuming too much sugar is harmful, or are you wanting him to read labels and choose different processed foods? Those are basically different things.
posted by needs more cowbell at 6:15 AM on September 23
The fact that he is ignoring your diet needs to the point of harming your health is alarming.
I admit, I kind of had an "eeugh" reaction before I read the text behind the fold and your updates, and realized this isn't just about him developing "healthy eating" habits for himself, but about him buying health appropriate foods for his diabetic partner who cannot shop for herself because she had a seizure. Like, what?!
I wonder if the framing of this as being just about "healthy eating", rather than managing a medical condition through making specific dietary choices, might be stealing away some of the urgency or importance. "Healthy eating" can feel like this big, vague, intimidating thing - because it is, because there are so many different views of what healthy eating is, so much contradictory information, so much grift and fearmongering, ...it is really easy to think that since we haven't gotten it figured out it must not be that important, and whatever consequences we face are long term and that is less important than the fact that I want to be out of this store now.
But for you, "healthy eating" includes managing a medical condition through making specific dietary choices.
I don't want to excuse him - it's his responsibility to get over whatever it is he needs to get over to do this necessary thing. He knows he needs to do it. But I wonder if it would help if you started to take additional steps that demonstrate to him that this really is necessary, like:
* Provide him with a shopping list that has specific items on it, and specific instructions about the nutrition requirements if he has to pick an item himself (e.g. "I'm not sure what jarred sauce has less added sugar")
* If he buys things you can't eat, don't eat them, and send him back to the store for something you can eat
Re: the first point, what I'm suggesting is taking some of the cognitive load of picking out items that are appropriate for your diet. Instead of making learning all this stuff into a task he might find intimidating or onerous, give him very specific instructions on what to get. All the better if his needs and yours overlap, so he'll start learning by example.
Re: the second point, what I'm suggesting is that if he doesn't do this necessary thing, it become his problem instead of yours. Right now it seems like you're the one whose problem it is - he has to listen to you try to talk to him about it, sure, but you suck it up and eat the food that's bad for you, if I'm understanding right. I'm suggesting that you make it his problem by making him waste HIS time if he continues to refuse to do this simple thing.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:25 AM on September 23
I admit, I kind of had an "eeugh" reaction before I read the text behind the fold and your updates, and realized this isn't just about him developing "healthy eating" habits for himself, but about him buying health appropriate foods for his diabetic partner who cannot shop for herself because she had a seizure. Like, what?!
I wonder if the framing of this as being just about "healthy eating", rather than managing a medical condition through making specific dietary choices, might be stealing away some of the urgency or importance. "Healthy eating" can feel like this big, vague, intimidating thing - because it is, because there are so many different views of what healthy eating is, so much contradictory information, so much grift and fearmongering, ...it is really easy to think that since we haven't gotten it figured out it must not be that important, and whatever consequences we face are long term and that is less important than the fact that I want to be out of this store now.
But for you, "healthy eating" includes managing a medical condition through making specific dietary choices.
I don't want to excuse him - it's his responsibility to get over whatever it is he needs to get over to do this necessary thing. He knows he needs to do it. But I wonder if it would help if you started to take additional steps that demonstrate to him that this really is necessary, like:
* Provide him with a shopping list that has specific items on it, and specific instructions about the nutrition requirements if he has to pick an item himself (e.g. "I'm not sure what jarred sauce has less added sugar")
* If he buys things you can't eat, don't eat them, and send him back to the store for something you can eat
Re: the first point, what I'm suggesting is taking some of the cognitive load of picking out items that are appropriate for your diet. Instead of making learning all this stuff into a task he might find intimidating or onerous, give him very specific instructions on what to get. All the better if his needs and yours overlap, so he'll start learning by example.
Re: the second point, what I'm suggesting is that if he doesn't do this necessary thing, it become his problem instead of yours. Right now it seems like you're the one whose problem it is - he has to listen to you try to talk to him about it, sure, but you suck it up and eat the food that's bad for you, if I'm understanding right. I'm suggesting that you make it his problem by making him waste HIS time if he continues to refuse to do this simple thing.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:25 AM on September 23
Can you eat less processed food? I get that it’s more work and the answer might be no, but produce won’t have added sugar or labels to read. Brown rice, plain oatmeal, whole wheat pasta, beans, canned tomatoes, etc. It seems like that would be harder for him to mess up and healthier (getting fiber in your fruit juice, for example).
posted by momus_window at 6:34 AM on September 23
posted by momus_window at 6:34 AM on September 23
Can you give him specific brands/kinds? Like instead of "juice" maybe "orange juice, not from concentrate, high pulp"? Then you'll get what you were picturing and he'll develop the habit of getting the one you want (not the health-promoting habit of, like, reading nutrition labels -- can't help you there -- but of at least buying the thing you want.)
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:46 AM on September 23
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:46 AM on September 23
Like others, I find it notable that your two examples of him failing - juice and protein bars - are generally very sugary (especially protein bars), and you often have to go to a speciality store to find the less-sugary brands. So if this is a guy who doesn't read nutrition labels (or even understand the different between fruit punch and 100% fruit juice) he's unlikely to successfully find those options unless you identify specific brands. Ordering online might be an easier option.
Which is to say, I had a similar reaction to momus_window - it would be hard for them to mess up plain canned (or dry) beans, produce, plain yogurt, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 7:06 AM on September 23
Which is to say, I had a similar reaction to momus_window - it would be hard for them to mess up plain canned (or dry) beans, produce, plain yogurt, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 7:06 AM on September 23
Sugar, the Bitter Truth was my wake-up call video. Nothing ever stuck before and I ended up losing 170 pounds in my mid 30s.
It's Robert Lustig, as I_love_the_rain suggested. But it's not a friendly youtuber. It's a long university talk from 15 years ago.
posted by Snijglau at 7:07 AM on September 23
It's Robert Lustig, as I_love_the_rain suggested. But it's not a friendly youtuber. It's a long university talk from 15 years ago.
posted by Snijglau at 7:07 AM on September 23
We don't really eat processed foods and that makes a big difference. Can he focus on purchasing whole foods that aren't processed? We eat a lot of salads (raw vegetables with vinegar and oil and spices, not bottled salad dressing), one egg mixed with egg whites, canned beans, and tofu in our household (I guess tofu is technically processed but it doesn't have added sugars or anything). There are two of us and we basically buy the same things every week at the grocery store: two heads of lettuce, two heads of kale, green onions, four bell peppers, snap peas or green beans, baby tomatoes, cucumbers, carrots, carton of egg whites, eggs, 3 blocks of tofu, 1 lb fish, greek yogurt, soy milk, skim milk - I'm sure I'm missing some things here but in general this is what we buy. And then we have pantry staples around: vinegars, oils, lots of dried herbs, rice, rice noodles, rolled oats, quinoa.
posted by twelve cent archie at 7:31 AM on September 23
posted by twelve cent archie at 7:31 AM on September 23
I think your Ask is the wrong question and you're engaged in the wrong efforts.
You do not need to change your husband's mind about sugar, you just need him to buy what you tell him to buy *for you* at the grocery store (and he can buy for himself whatever he pleases).
So rather than Youtube videos designed to persuade, how about giving him a "for you" shopping list so that you are able to eat as healthfully as you please? How about ordering your portion of the groceries online and he can pick it up when he's there for his own food? How about ordering your groceries for delivery?
Worst case scenario: how about asking someone else like a friend, or neighbor, or family member, to pick up your groceries for you? If you are reduced to asking others because your husband refuses to buy your groceries, then you definitely have a serious problem in your marriage, and you should consider marital therapy and/or breaking up. There is no eye problem nor any form of neurodivergence that would excuse your husband's total refusal to buy you the groceries you need in order to live healthfully. There's no excuse whatesoever, and you need to ask yourself why you are married to a dangerous man.
But most likely it will not come to that. If you give up your crusade to persuade him and change his mind, and focus 100% on yourself eating what you consider right for your needs, his resistance will likely melt away and you will quite likely have the groceries you need.
posted by MiraK at 7:35 AM on September 23
You do not need to change your husband's mind about sugar, you just need him to buy what you tell him to buy *for you* at the grocery store (and he can buy for himself whatever he pleases).
So rather than Youtube videos designed to persuade, how about giving him a "for you" shopping list so that you are able to eat as healthfully as you please? How about ordering your portion of the groceries online and he can pick it up when he's there for his own food? How about ordering your groceries for delivery?
Worst case scenario: how about asking someone else like a friend, or neighbor, or family member, to pick up your groceries for you? If you are reduced to asking others because your husband refuses to buy your groceries, then you definitely have a serious problem in your marriage, and you should consider marital therapy and/or breaking up. There is no eye problem nor any form of neurodivergence that would excuse your husband's total refusal to buy you the groceries you need in order to live healthfully. There's no excuse whatesoever, and you need to ask yourself why you are married to a dangerous man.
But most likely it will not come to that. If you give up your crusade to persuade him and change his mind, and focus 100% on yourself eating what you consider right for your needs, his resistance will likely melt away and you will quite likely have the groceries you need.
posted by MiraK at 7:35 AM on September 23
Given your thoughts on the causes, I really don't think an educational youtube video is going to make him read labels or make healthier choices, because the problem isn't that he doesn't care about sugar, it's whatever other barrier(s) are stopping him from reading the label.
Strongly agree with shifting towards types of foods that are less processed or specific product terms that mean sugar is not added, like "plain yogurt" or "100% peanuts peanut butter" etc.
If you're able to take on more mental work for this, another thing that would solve this issue is for you to use online grocery shopping to make a cart of exactly what products you want, and then he can go pick them up (either by scheduling a pickup, or just by logging into the same account on his phone and using that as his list).
posted by randomnity at 7:37 AM on September 23
Strongly agree with shifting towards types of foods that are less processed or specific product terms that mean sugar is not added, like "plain yogurt" or "100% peanuts peanut butter" etc.
If you're able to take on more mental work for this, another thing that would solve this issue is for you to use online grocery shopping to make a cart of exactly what products you want, and then he can go pick them up (either by scheduling a pickup, or just by logging into the same account on his phone and using that as his list).
posted by randomnity at 7:37 AM on September 23
"Shop the walls."
This is where the raw, unprocessed foods typically are -- fruits and vegetables, meats, dairy (eggs, milk, cheese).
Dairy can be a problem if it has a label, so it's a case of "buy this, not that" as long as you actually use the new dairy.
The aisles are landmines for shoppers on a restricted diet.
When I did keto, I started with a few simple staples and eliminated much of the guesswork. IANAD (dietician) but you might run this past your medical team.
Protein -- chicken and fish, prepared and served with minimal carbs (a roasted chicken without the skin, not fried chicken)
Dairy -- eggs and cheese, but substitute lower carb cheeses
Vegetables -- avocado and green, leafy vegetables, prepared and served with minimal carbs
Oils -- coconut oil (I used extra virgin olive oil instead)
Fruits, root vegetables and grains were off the menu. We spent a lot of time clearing the cabinets and fridge. And it worked.
But I remember saying that if I cheated, it would be for an apple.
I eat apples again.
Good luck.
posted by TrishaU at 8:00 AM on September 23
This is where the raw, unprocessed foods typically are -- fruits and vegetables, meats, dairy (eggs, milk, cheese).
Dairy can be a problem if it has a label, so it's a case of "buy this, not that" as long as you actually use the new dairy.
The aisles are landmines for shoppers on a restricted diet.
When I did keto, I started with a few simple staples and eliminated much of the guesswork. IANAD (dietician) but you might run this past your medical team.
Protein -- chicken and fish, prepared and served with minimal carbs (a roasted chicken without the skin, not fried chicken)
Dairy -- eggs and cheese, but substitute lower carb cheeses
Vegetables -- avocado and green, leafy vegetables, prepared and served with minimal carbs
Oils -- coconut oil (I used extra virgin olive oil instead)
Fruits, root vegetables and grains were off the menu. We spent a lot of time clearing the cabinets and fridge. And it worked.
But I remember saying that if I cheated, it would be for an apple.
I eat apples again.
Good luck.
posted by TrishaU at 8:00 AM on September 23
As an in-between suggestion, I was thinking you might try clearer and more objective guidelines for what you want him to buy—instead of “healthy protein bars without too much sugar” say something like “no more than 15g total carbs per bar” or whatever the measurable number would be. It’s a lot to change his entire view on nutrition and that could take some time. I remember thinking at some point pasta was a very healthy food and now I have diabetes and it really is not. But it took time for my mental models of everything to change.
posted by music for skeletons at 8:15 AM on September 23
posted by music for skeletons at 8:15 AM on September 23
In my relationship, I am the person with the strongest preference for specific foods (some of that is about health, some is about taste) and so I handle most of the grocery shopping. When they or I add things to the shared grocery list, it is in very generic terms like “juice” or “oatmeal” — but only because I already know that these list items really mean “X brand of Y flavor juice in Z oz size” and “X brand of steel-cut oats, which is packaged in bags not canisters.”
When my partner has to take over a shopping trip, I do a 2-minute annotation of the grocery list to add these specific details. If the store doesn’t have the very specific thing I want, I’ll get a text about substitutions.
On the flip side, laundry is my partner’s task. When I need to take over this chore from them, I often have to ask a bunch of questions about how specific clothes get treated. I don’t store this info in permanent memory because it’s not “my” job. If I were taking over laundry permanently, there would be a long on-ramp of learning my partner’s needs and preferences. And I think we would be more successful in that transition if we started with very granular instructions—e.g. these specific jeans get hand-washed in this container with X bottle of detergent in Y quantity. The general laundry education in materials science could come later, but to be honest I think I would always do better if they just gave me the specific laundry instructions every time they purchased something new. Clothes are just not something I am ever going to care enough about to make the knowledge stick. What I do care about is doing things how my partner wants them; that I can learn. (I hope this distinction makes sense!)
Given the blocks your partner has about reading labels and permanently absorbing nutrition info, this might be a workflow that will get you closer to having your needs met than starting from the first principles of general education.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 8:37 AM on September 23
When my partner has to take over a shopping trip, I do a 2-minute annotation of the grocery list to add these specific details. If the store doesn’t have the very specific thing I want, I’ll get a text about substitutions.
On the flip side, laundry is my partner’s task. When I need to take over this chore from them, I often have to ask a bunch of questions about how specific clothes get treated. I don’t store this info in permanent memory because it’s not “my” job. If I were taking over laundry permanently, there would be a long on-ramp of learning my partner’s needs and preferences. And I think we would be more successful in that transition if we started with very granular instructions—e.g. these specific jeans get hand-washed in this container with X bottle of detergent in Y quantity. The general laundry education in materials science could come later, but to be honest I think I would always do better if they just gave me the specific laundry instructions every time they purchased something new. Clothes are just not something I am ever going to care enough about to make the knowledge stick. What I do care about is doing things how my partner wants them; that I can learn. (I hope this distinction makes sense!)
Given the blocks your partner has about reading labels and permanently absorbing nutrition info, this might be a workflow that will get you closer to having your needs met than starting from the first principles of general education.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 8:37 AM on September 23
I would just give up the fight and get my own groceries delivered. It's what you would do if you were single and couldn't get to the grocery. Why depend on this undependable man when you don't have to?
posted by HotToddy at 8:45 AM on September 23
posted by HotToddy at 8:45 AM on September 23
N-thing splitting the grocery ordering and grocery pickup tasks. I do all my grocery ordering online and my partner picks up the order. It saves us impulse buys and does make it easier to compare, because multiple tabs and no time limit is so less stressful than trying to read labels/compare prices while in a loud crowded overstimulating store (I know it's irrational but I feel like if I take longer than 2 seconds to make my choice I feel awkward, judged, and in the way. Especially if it's busy.)
It's more upfront working your side but once you get some lists into the system, you can often just click to reorder.
posted by platypus of the universe at 8:50 AM on September 23
It's more upfront working your side but once you get some lists into the system, you can often just click to reorder.
posted by platypus of the universe at 8:50 AM on September 23
Just a brief note that I think it might be easier and more effective to cut out certain items/groups entirely rather than trying to make small distinctions between mostly unhealthy things. For instance, if you're pre-diabetic, the distinction between brown rice and white rice is probably not as important as simply not eating much rice at all. Similarly, fruit juice and fruit juice drink are arguably much more similar than different. (I am extremely interested in nutrition, to the point that I read PubMed studies about it every week, and there doesn't seem to me to be much evidence for the idea that added sugar is bad but that naturally-occurring sugar in something is fine. "Naturally-occurring" is also squishy as a concept: we've bred fruit over the last 10,000 years, for instance, to be much much more sugary than anything occurring on its own in nature, so the idea that it's "healthy" except in extreme moderation is, for instance, quite controversial - especially in its juice form, where the fiber is largely stripped away and you get the whole glycemic hit at once...)
All this means that if you focus largely on eating different kinds of foods, it will be much harder for your husband to screw up. If you focus on eating/buying mostly above-ground vegetables, with protein and healthy fat in the mix, a lot of these distinctions about what to buy vanish. It's fairly hard to screw up buying a head of cabbage, fresh spinach, broccoli, eggs, olive oil, salmon, and blackberries, for instance. None of this is intended to be critical, and obviously you may not want to go down this path, but I have gone down it myself and it made everything much easier, both in terms of mental burden of reading labels and decision-making, as well as health improvement.
I wanted also to say that for the remaining things that might be hard to choose, so much now can be ordered online - Amazon, Costco (might be worth a membership), Sam's Club, etc. Personally, online I've bought Costco protein bars (dupes for Quest), Fairlife milk protein drinks, and other similar low carb options, at prices at least comparable to my local grocery store.
posted by ClaireBear at 9:30 AM on September 23
All this means that if you focus largely on eating different kinds of foods, it will be much harder for your husband to screw up. If you focus on eating/buying mostly above-ground vegetables, with protein and healthy fat in the mix, a lot of these distinctions about what to buy vanish. It's fairly hard to screw up buying a head of cabbage, fresh spinach, broccoli, eggs, olive oil, salmon, and blackberries, for instance. None of this is intended to be critical, and obviously you may not want to go down this path, but I have gone down it myself and it made everything much easier, both in terms of mental burden of reading labels and decision-making, as well as health improvement.
I wanted also to say that for the remaining things that might be hard to choose, so much now can be ordered online - Amazon, Costco (might be worth a membership), Sam's Club, etc. Personally, online I've bought Costco protein bars (dupes for Quest), Fairlife milk protein drinks, and other similar low carb options, at prices at least comparable to my local grocery store.
posted by ClaireBear at 9:30 AM on September 23
Came on to say send him for whole, not processed food, so just nthing that.
Also, in case this is useful info to you in your own health journey: all fruit juice, even the "good" version (not talking about punch or "drinks") is still like eating a candy bar to your blood sugar and pancreas. We need the fiber of the slowly digested whole fruit to slow the sugar rush absorption of fructose. No fruit juice is recommended if you're trying to go low sugar.
posted by ponie at 10:06 AM on September 23
Also, in case this is useful info to you in your own health journey: all fruit juice, even the "good" version (not talking about punch or "drinks") is still like eating a candy bar to your blood sugar and pancreas. We need the fiber of the slowly digested whole fruit to slow the sugar rush absorption of fructose. No fruit juice is recommended if you're trying to go low sugar.
posted by ponie at 10:06 AM on September 23
Lots of added sugar tends to be the looks-cheapest option, yes? Sometimes by a long way. That’s an easy stumbling block when shopping.
posted by clew at 11:29 AM on September 23
posted by clew at 11:29 AM on September 23
I’m going to assume you live near a Fred Meyer or equivalent bc this sure sounds like the American food landscape. Fred Meyer will do your shopping for you. You fill up an online cart with the exact brands you want and a staff member will go through the store and put them together. Then you can make an appointment - usually with it 24 hours or much less. Your husband can go to the parking lot and put in the app what spot he is in and a nice person will trundle out to the car with the exact specific groceries that you picked out. If you asked for Dave’s Apple Juice With Cranberry, and they are out, they will not buy you regular Apple Juice or Apple Fruit Drink, they will text you with a proposed substitute and allow you to veto it. If you buy more than $25 it is a free service. Free. In addition they are currently running a promotion right now for their premium service where if you sign up for it you get a year of free DELIVERIES to your house. I have been using this system for 3 years and I have only had an issue with pricing or quality a handful of times. Each time I called the National customer service and was immediately refunded.
posted by bq at 5:46 PM on September 23
posted by bq at 5:46 PM on September 23
Unfortunately, most of the non-YouTube-related suggestions won't work for us because of a few snowflake issues.
We live in Seattle, which has a high mandatory minimum wage for gig workers, which is great for them but means that any sort of delivery is now completely unaffordable to anyone who isn't rich. Like it's double the cost of going to the store ourselves.
Meanwhile, we can't afford a full grocery shop regardless, so our strategy is to go to the food banks first to see what we can get for free, then go to the grocery store after to buy missing ingredients to turn the free food into meals. So there's no knowing from week to week what the shopping list will be, since it's reactive to what's available from the food bank. We also go to a discount grocery chain for the stuff we need to buy, and there's no knowing what they'll have in stock.
It might help to have him come home right after the food banks instead of continuing onward to the store like he usually does. Then I can see what we have and write a more precise shopping list. But we'll still bump up against the intermittent availability of products at the discount grocery store, and his general inability to make good judgments about appropriate substitutions. Like his knowledge of food in general is not very good.
Apple Health is getting me a rollator soon, so it will be easier for me to go to the store with him (I've been having some mobility issues with standing and walking that I'm now in physical therapy for, but it will be a while until I can get back to a normal level of activity). I think maybe if I just talk him through my entire thought process for how I choose each thing as we go might help.
But first, he needs to think it's important enough to pay attention and remember, and that's why I think him watching some "come to Jesus" YouTube videos about why consuming massive amounts of sugar is bad would help. He's perfectly capable of learning tons of detailed information about stuff that he's interested in (e.g. comparative state election laws, the history of flag design, etc.) and thus my hopes with this AskMe are to find YouTube content that will get him interested in the topic.
Basically, if I can trigger his natural hyperfixaton mechanism to hyperfixate on nutrition for a little bit, then he'll probably become a nearly perfect grocery shopper overnight. I've seen it happen before with other things he wasn't initially very good at or knowledgeable about. He goes down a YouTube rabbit hole and boom! skill acquired.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:54 AM on September 24
We live in Seattle, which has a high mandatory minimum wage for gig workers, which is great for them but means that any sort of delivery is now completely unaffordable to anyone who isn't rich. Like it's double the cost of going to the store ourselves.
Meanwhile, we can't afford a full grocery shop regardless, so our strategy is to go to the food banks first to see what we can get for free, then go to the grocery store after to buy missing ingredients to turn the free food into meals. So there's no knowing from week to week what the shopping list will be, since it's reactive to what's available from the food bank. We also go to a discount grocery chain for the stuff we need to buy, and there's no knowing what they'll have in stock.
It might help to have him come home right after the food banks instead of continuing onward to the store like he usually does. Then I can see what we have and write a more precise shopping list. But we'll still bump up against the intermittent availability of products at the discount grocery store, and his general inability to make good judgments about appropriate substitutions. Like his knowledge of food in general is not very good.
Apple Health is getting me a rollator soon, so it will be easier for me to go to the store with him (I've been having some mobility issues with standing and walking that I'm now in physical therapy for, but it will be a while until I can get back to a normal level of activity). I think maybe if I just talk him through my entire thought process for how I choose each thing as we go might help.
But first, he needs to think it's important enough to pay attention and remember, and that's why I think him watching some "come to Jesus" YouTube videos about why consuming massive amounts of sugar is bad would help. He's perfectly capable of learning tons of detailed information about stuff that he's interested in (e.g. comparative state election laws, the history of flag design, etc.) and thus my hopes with this AskMe are to find YouTube content that will get him interested in the topic.
Basically, if I can trigger his natural hyperfixaton mechanism to hyperfixate on nutrition for a little bit, then he'll probably become a nearly perfect grocery shopper overnight. I've seen it happen before with other things he wasn't initially very good at or knowledgeable about. He goes down a YouTube rabbit hole and boom! skill acquired.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:54 AM on September 24
The way you talk about him really makes it sound like you don't like or respect him. I hope that's not true, and that you're just frustrated and upset right now. But if you talk to him the way you talk about him, that's just not an acceptable way to treat your partner. It's also counterproductive, because you're not going to be able to convince him of anything, or even convince him to watch a video you recommend, while you're treating him with such contempt.
posted by decathecting at 9:51 AM on September 24
posted by decathecting at 9:51 AM on September 24
I mean, rather than trying this weird and convoluted means of changing his behavior "from within" as it were, by motivating him or by tricking him into a new hyperfixation, can you be direct and ask him to stop buying food that will kill you?
I am not sure I understand the situation here well enough to know whether you have been hesitant to tell him directly that he is endangering your health, or if you have already tried telling him this and it didn't work?
If the latter, you are in an abusive marriage with a dangerous man. Please do not use neurodiversity as an excuse for why he is deliberately poisoning you and endangering you on a daily basis. I will repeat that you may need to ask someone else to do your grocery/food shopping and pickups for you since your partner is literally poisoning you and killing you slowly. I am sorry that you are in this situation.
Please focus your efforts on finding someone else to go to the food bank and grocery store for you. Perhaps the food bank offers deliveries for people in your situation: please just openly and honestly tell them that your partner is endangering your health and you are in an abusive situation, therefore you need their help. You can also call around for local women's charities and domestic violence shelters. No shame in this, and YES YOU ARE IN A DANGEROUS AND THREATENING RELATIONSHIP, you definitely qualify for help.
I wish you the very best, and I'm thinking about you!
posted by MiraK at 10:03 AM on September 24
I am not sure I understand the situation here well enough to know whether you have been hesitant to tell him directly that he is endangering your health, or if you have already tried telling him this and it didn't work?
If the latter, you are in an abusive marriage with a dangerous man. Please do not use neurodiversity as an excuse for why he is deliberately poisoning you and endangering you on a daily basis. I will repeat that you may need to ask someone else to do your grocery/food shopping and pickups for you since your partner is literally poisoning you and killing you slowly. I am sorry that you are in this situation.
Please focus your efforts on finding someone else to go to the food bank and grocery store for you. Perhaps the food bank offers deliveries for people in your situation: please just openly and honestly tell them that your partner is endangering your health and you are in an abusive situation, therefore you need their help. You can also call around for local women's charities and domestic violence shelters. No shame in this, and YES YOU ARE IN A DANGEROUS AND THREATENING RELATIONSHIP, you definitely qualify for help.
I wish you the very best, and I'm thinking about you!
posted by MiraK at 10:03 AM on September 24
Quick addendum: I think the reason why decathecting thinks you have immense contempt for your partner is because you're speaking of him as if he is severely mentally and/or morally disabled. You say:
> But first, he needs to think it's important enough to pay attention and remember
And that is just a flabbergasting statement about any partner, when the "it" you speak of is your life-or-death illness!
Decathecting probably read this sentence and thought: holy shit, OP has so much contempt for her partner that she doesn't even think he is capable of caring whether she lives or dies.
I read that same statement and I think: holy shit, OP is in a severely abusive relationship with a dangerous man who doesn't even care whether she lives or dies.
I'm not sure which one of us has the correct take here, but holy shit, OP. The things you're saying about your partner are very alarming either way.
posted by MiraK at 10:16 AM on September 24
> But first, he needs to think it's important enough to pay attention and remember
And that is just a flabbergasting statement about any partner, when the "it" you speak of is your life-or-death illness!
Decathecting probably read this sentence and thought: holy shit, OP has so much contempt for her partner that she doesn't even think he is capable of caring whether she lives or dies.
I read that same statement and I think: holy shit, OP is in a severely abusive relationship with a dangerous man who doesn't even care whether she lives or dies.
I'm not sure which one of us has the correct take here, but holy shit, OP. The things you're saying about your partner are very alarming either way.
posted by MiraK at 10:16 AM on September 24
Given your update, I wonder if you have tried providing more specificity to your shopping requests in a different way: rather than by the exact type/brand of goods, but rather by the rubrics by which you would make choices in the store, if you were shopping. What are your actual guidelines? No items above a certain percentage of RDA of sugar? No items over X g of sugar, period? Up to Y grams of sugar are okay, but only if there are also at least Z grams of fiber? Up to A grams of sugar are okay, but only if it also has B, C, or D vitamins?
The only guideline I see in your post is that you don’t want “massive amounts of sugar,” but—speaking as someone with a lot of relevant knowledge and a lifelong history of label-reading—I don’t actually know what that means to you. Especially because, like needs more cowbell, I am confused by your example. I just did a quick comp and 100% fresh-squeezed orange juice with no sugar added is higher in both sugar and calories than Hi-C orange drink, while the fresh juice has a small amount of fiber and more nutrients. Both or neither may be a good choice for a person depending on their needs, but reading the label alone isn’t enough to know whether it is a good choice for you.
Also, the specific phrase “massive amounts of sugar” is one that evokes quite a lot of societal baggage. When I read it multiple times in this post, it snapped me back to so many terrible memories of bad diet culture, from my mom’s obsession with Oprah’s weight loss shows to the keto diet craze to completely baseless social media propaganda about sugar addiction. If your partner has any unresolved (or even previously-resolved) personal or family trauma around dieting, it’s possible this is a uniquely poor framing for them to begin understanding your needs. If that’s an issue, more granular guidelines might be able to skirt around those associations.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 1:28 PM on September 24
The only guideline I see in your post is that you don’t want “massive amounts of sugar,” but—speaking as someone with a lot of relevant knowledge and a lifelong history of label-reading—I don’t actually know what that means to you. Especially because, like needs more cowbell, I am confused by your example. I just did a quick comp and 100% fresh-squeezed orange juice with no sugar added is higher in both sugar and calories than Hi-C orange drink, while the fresh juice has a small amount of fiber and more nutrients. Both or neither may be a good choice for a person depending on their needs, but reading the label alone isn’t enough to know whether it is a good choice for you.
Also, the specific phrase “massive amounts of sugar” is one that evokes quite a lot of societal baggage. When I read it multiple times in this post, it snapped me back to so many terrible memories of bad diet culture, from my mom’s obsession with Oprah’s weight loss shows to the keto diet craze to completely baseless social media propaganda about sugar addiction. If your partner has any unresolved (or even previously-resolved) personal or family trauma around dieting, it’s possible this is a uniquely poor framing for them to begin understanding your needs. If that’s an issue, more granular guidelines might be able to skirt around those associations.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 1:28 PM on September 24
This all seems like a lot of work: educational videos, reading the labels for every single potential purchase (when a commenter upstream said that he has difficulty absorbing written information). For me, it would turn something enjoyable into a chore and make me zone out. Maybe that’s bad of me, but I think it’s only human.
Is it feasible to cook from scratch, from largely unprocessed foods? That way you can really limit the sugar. For instance, instead of fruit juice, buy fruit and drink water. Now that could also be a major behavioural change… But it gives him a simple rule of thumb to work with, rather than generating lots of homework.
posted by primavera_f at 3:37 PM on September 24
Is it feasible to cook from scratch, from largely unprocessed foods? That way you can really limit the sugar. For instance, instead of fruit juice, buy fruit and drink water. Now that could also be a major behavioural change… But it gives him a simple rule of thumb to work with, rather than generating lots of homework.
posted by primavera_f at 3:37 PM on September 24
It might help to have him come home right after the food banks instead of continuing onward to the store
Can he take a photo of the food-bank groceries and send it to you?
Your reply is the store list, tailored to that particular shopping day.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:58 PM on September 24
Can he take a photo of the food-bank groceries and send it to you?
Your reply is the store list, tailored to that particular shopping day.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:58 PM on September 24
It sounds like you're both going through a lot and I'm sorry you're both under so much stress.
To take the rhetoric down a notch, insulin resistance sucks but will not, in fact, kill you in the short-term or "poison" you. It's okay to fuck up a bit and eat some higher sugar foods, especially if you're on meds to help regulate your blood sugar. Yes, it would be ideal if you had perfect diets, but there is a lot of intense language here (and anxiety) that is probably not helping anyone in what sounds like a fraught, stressful situation. If you get protein bars with too much sugar, you can just eat a little bit of one; you can save them for guests; you can even return them. It's okay! Yes, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. If you get juice that has too much sugar, you can always drink it 1/4 juice 3/4 water. It'll be okay.
Seconding (as someone with insulin resistance) that the way to go might be to really take a hard look at the categories of food you're eating.
posted by knobknosher at 1:41 AM on September 25
To take the rhetoric down a notch, insulin resistance sucks but will not, in fact, kill you in the short-term or "poison" you. It's okay to fuck up a bit and eat some higher sugar foods, especially if you're on meds to help regulate your blood sugar. Yes, it would be ideal if you had perfect diets, but there is a lot of intense language here (and anxiety) that is probably not helping anyone in what sounds like a fraught, stressful situation. If you get protein bars with too much sugar, you can just eat a little bit of one; you can save them for guests; you can even return them. It's okay! Yes, it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. If you get juice that has too much sugar, you can always drink it 1/4 juice 3/4 water. It'll be okay.
Seconding (as someone with insulin resistance) that the way to go might be to really take a hard look at the categories of food you're eating.
posted by knobknosher at 1:41 AM on September 25
Also, exercise and activity are huge for regulating blood sugar. I know you have mobility issues but if you do e.g. chair exercises or save your PT for after you eat, you'll see really positive effects in your blood sugar regulation.
posted by knobknosher at 1:42 AM on September 25
posted by knobknosher at 1:42 AM on September 25
Also—if you’re having trouble affording food, have him go to his financial aid office and ask them for options for increasing his cost of attendance to include more living expenses. Having a disabled family member who is dependent will likely allow for him to get more loans. It’s not ideal to take out more loans but it sounds like $50/week could make a massive difference in your QOL while you recover.
posted by knobknosher at 1:56 AM on September 25
posted by knobknosher at 1:56 AM on September 25
"If the latter, you are in an abusive marriage with a dangerous man. Please do not use neurodiversity as an excuse for why he is deliberately poisoning you and endangering you on a daily basis."
...
"I think the reason why decathecting thinks you have immense contempt for your partner is because you're speaking of him as if he is severely mentally and/or morally disabled."
Maybe I should have mentioned earlier that he literally has brain damage, but I didn't think it was relevant to my actual request, which was for YouTube video recommendations.
That's not a joke or hyperbole. He's suffered numerous TBIs from early childhood onward, including a severely disabling one in 2019. It took him a couple years to relearn how to walk without a rollator. The MRI of his brain shows as many dead spots as the brains of combat vets who got blown up by IEDs.
He's not an uncaring abuser who is deliberately poisoning me and I don't feel contempt for him. He just literally has brain damage and I'm realistic about his limitations.
I can tell him things over and over and he forgets, not because he doesn't care, but because he has brain damage. Hence my desire to try the medium that he regularly remembers enormous amounts of trivia from: engaging educational YouTube videos.
Like oh my god the obscure details he can tell you about very specific periods of world history or swordmaking or flag design or whatever else he watched once.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:12 AM on September 25
...
"I think the reason why decathecting thinks you have immense contempt for your partner is because you're speaking of him as if he is severely mentally and/or morally disabled."
Maybe I should have mentioned earlier that he literally has brain damage, but I didn't think it was relevant to my actual request, which was for YouTube video recommendations.
That's not a joke or hyperbole. He's suffered numerous TBIs from early childhood onward, including a severely disabling one in 2019. It took him a couple years to relearn how to walk without a rollator. The MRI of his brain shows as many dead spots as the brains of combat vets who got blown up by IEDs.
He's not an uncaring abuser who is deliberately poisoning me and I don't feel contempt for him. He just literally has brain damage and I'm realistic about his limitations.
I can tell him things over and over and he forgets, not because he doesn't care, but because he has brain damage. Hence my desire to try the medium that he regularly remembers enormous amounts of trivia from: engaging educational YouTube videos.
Like oh my god the obscure details he can tell you about very specific periods of world history or swordmaking or flag design or whatever else he watched once.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:12 AM on September 25
I love my husband very much and his memory and general cognitive abilities have come a very long way since his disabling traumatic brain injury 5 years ago, but his ability to absorb and retain information still varies tremendously depending on the medium.
Me telling him things or him reading about them does not work. I'm assuming that whatever parts of his brain that used to be able to absorb information that way are the parts that have dead spots in them now.
Meanwhile, watching a bunch of YouTube videos seems to work very very well. So those parts of the brain either weren't damaged or have recovered more than the other parts.
Hence my question being very specifically about recommendations for YouTube videos that inspired you or someone you know to change your/their relationship with sugar, and not a general "please solve this problem for me" request.
I love all y'all and I appreciate your concern for my wellbeing and my marriage, but I asked what I asked for a reason.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:26 AM on September 25
Me telling him things or him reading about them does not work. I'm assuming that whatever parts of his brain that used to be able to absorb information that way are the parts that have dead spots in them now.
Meanwhile, watching a bunch of YouTube videos seems to work very very well. So those parts of the brain either weren't damaged or have recovered more than the other parts.
Hence my question being very specifically about recommendations for YouTube videos that inspired you or someone you know to change your/their relationship with sugar, and not a general "please solve this problem for me" request.
I love all y'all and I appreciate your concern for my wellbeing and my marriage, but I asked what I asked for a reason.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:26 AM on September 25
"I just did a quick comp and 100% fresh-squeezed orange juice with no sugar added is higher in both sugar and calories than Hi-C orange drink, while the fresh juice has a small amount of fiber and more nutrients"
The "fruit punch juice drink" wasn't for me (I generally avoid drinking calories), it was just an example of how ignorant he is of basic nutrition and how inattentive he is in the store.
He thought he had bought fruit juice because "it was in the juice section." But the stuff he bought had zero nutrition. Like there wasn't even enough vitamin C to make the label. It was basically just sugar water with a splash of juice in it.
I used it as an example because a) it had just happened and b) it was a great demonstration of the problem. His intentions were to buy himself fruit juice because he thought that would be healthier than soda, but he still ended up buying sugar water with no nutritional value.
The point of the example was to give an idea of his starting point, so that people recommending videos would hopefully recommend something remedial that doesn't assume any "common knowledge" of basic nutrition and how to read labels. Whatever he used to know about those things back when he passed his certified personal trainer exam is long gone, and we're starting over from scratch.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:41 AM on September 25
The "fruit punch juice drink" wasn't for me (I generally avoid drinking calories), it was just an example of how ignorant he is of basic nutrition and how inattentive he is in the store.
He thought he had bought fruit juice because "it was in the juice section." But the stuff he bought had zero nutrition. Like there wasn't even enough vitamin C to make the label. It was basically just sugar water with a splash of juice in it.
I used it as an example because a) it had just happened and b) it was a great demonstration of the problem. His intentions were to buy himself fruit juice because he thought that would be healthier than soda, but he still ended up buying sugar water with no nutritional value.
The point of the example was to give an idea of his starting point, so that people recommending videos would hopefully recommend something remedial that doesn't assume any "common knowledge" of basic nutrition and how to read labels. Whatever he used to know about those things back when he passed his certified personal trainer exam is long gone, and we're starting over from scratch.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:41 AM on September 25
Also, going forward, I will try to remember to include "my husband literally has brain damage" near the top of any post that might have anything to do with our lives to avoid further confusion.
Apparently I used to remember to include that context in questions that involved him, but unfortunately I've recently started suffering from memory loss myself plus I've gotten so used to working around his issues that I don't really think about them on a daily basis.
Anyhow, although we're basically two goldfish doing a poor imitation of a couple of human adults, our marriage is great. We both have complete faith that the other is sincerely doing their best and thus we treat any problems as logistical issues caused by our brain gremlins and not as someone being deliberately hurtful or neglectful. And the upside of neither of us being able to remember shit is that as soon as a problem is solved, we forget we ever had it! :)
posted by Jacqueline at 6:57 AM on September 25
Apparently I used to remember to include that context in questions that involved him, but unfortunately I've recently started suffering from memory loss myself plus I've gotten so used to working around his issues that I don't really think about them on a daily basis.
Anyhow, although we're basically two goldfish doing a poor imitation of a couple of human adults, our marriage is great. We both have complete faith that the other is sincerely doing their best and thus we treat any problems as logistical issues caused by our brain gremlins and not as someone being deliberately hurtful or neglectful. And the upside of neither of us being able to remember shit is that as soon as a problem is solved, we forget we ever had it! :)
posted by Jacqueline at 6:57 AM on September 25
Oh wow! The fact that he literally has brain damage is very pertinent information. I'm sorry you both are struggling with these issues. And I genuinely apologize for going off in the wrong direction, filling in the missing information with my own assumptions. My comments must have been difficult for you to read and I'm sorry for the pain I caused you.
Your husband seems to be as disabled as you are in the task of getting groceries. It seems futile and unfair to him for you to expect him to do this task when he literally cannot.
Will you please consider reaching out to other people for help with this task until you are able to personally go shopping again. Do you have any friends and family in the area who might be willing to help you out until then? Have you tried reaching out to local churches for help, or local community organizations for the disabled? Have you tried talking to your caseworker or any medical professional you come into contact with as part of your care... they are usually able to connect you with resources?
posted by MiraK at 6:57 AM on September 25
Your husband seems to be as disabled as you are in the task of getting groceries. It seems futile and unfair to him for you to expect him to do this task when he literally cannot.
Will you please consider reaching out to other people for help with this task until you are able to personally go shopping again. Do you have any friends and family in the area who might be willing to help you out until then? Have you tried reaching out to local churches for help, or local community organizations for the disabled? Have you tried talking to your caseworker or any medical professional you come into contact with as part of your care... they are usually able to connect you with resources?
posted by MiraK at 6:57 AM on September 25
"My comments must have been difficult for you to read and I'm sorry for the pain I caused you."
No worries, there was no pain from you or anyone else in this thread.
My husband and I both used to be politically active public figures and have had a lot of nasty rumors started about us either from malice or misunderstandings. Like a bunch of people claimed that I gave him his TBI (he got injured at work) or that he didn't really have brain damage and I was actually poisoning him (how?! he was doing 90% of the cooking).
So now when I read something that someone has gotten very wrong about us, my reaction is an amused "people are writing weird fanfics about us again."
Also, unlike the people in the political circles we used to run in, I can assume everyone on MetaFilter means well.
"Will you please consider reaching out to other people for help with this task until you are able to personally go shopping again. Do you have any friends and family in the area who might be willing to help you out until then?"
We only moved to Seattle a year ago and I've been homebound for most of it so we haven't made any friends here yet.
"Have you tried reaching out to local churches for help, or local community organizations for the disabled? Have you tried talking to your caseworker or any medical professional you come into contact with as part of your care... they are usually able to connect you with resources?"
We do get some food delivered every two weeks from a local food bank but it's mostly rice, beans, potatoes, bread, and fruit and can't be customized even for medical dietary requirements. United Way runs the delivery program and they only let you get deliveries from one food bank, and even if I could eat all those things, the food isn't enough for two people for two weeks anyway.
I'm working on getting us Washington Basic Food (SNAP) but every time I try to call to complete the intake interview it says the wait is "at least two hours." Once we get that, I think it can be used with some grocery store delivery programs.
My doctor says he's going to talk to my Apple Health case manager to see if they have any nutritional programs that I qualify for.
So I've got some other stuff in the works, but until I'm able to take over getting the groceries again, my husband needs to be able to do it. He has a couple hours a day of good executive functioning so he's capable of grocery shopping, he just has a major blindspot when it comes to sugar.
I think maybe he was raised to equate sweets with love? Because he's constantly buying me candy or doing weird shit like offering me ice cream for breakfast (???) and every time he acts super pleased with himself for being such a great husband like he just presented me with a bouquet of roses.
It's not malicious or neglectful. It's just his brain damage means that I'm married to the human equivalent of an orange cat, and he's bringing me things he thinks I will appreciate much like a cat bringing dead mice even when you never asked for dead mice, do not want any dead mice, and have repeatedly begged for no more dead mice.
The day after I posted this AskMe, I tried an analogy -- imagine that refined sugar is alcohol and I'm an alcoholic in recovery, you wouldn't bring home beer, right? -- and that seemed to make an impression on him about how seriously I would like him to take this. But who knows if he'll remember.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:15 AM on September 25
No worries, there was no pain from you or anyone else in this thread.
My husband and I both used to be politically active public figures and have had a lot of nasty rumors started about us either from malice or misunderstandings. Like a bunch of people claimed that I gave him his TBI (he got injured at work) or that he didn't really have brain damage and I was actually poisoning him (how?! he was doing 90% of the cooking).
So now when I read something that someone has gotten very wrong about us, my reaction is an amused "people are writing weird fanfics about us again."
Also, unlike the people in the political circles we used to run in, I can assume everyone on MetaFilter means well.
"Will you please consider reaching out to other people for help with this task until you are able to personally go shopping again. Do you have any friends and family in the area who might be willing to help you out until then?"
We only moved to Seattle a year ago and I've been homebound for most of it so we haven't made any friends here yet.
"Have you tried reaching out to local churches for help, or local community organizations for the disabled? Have you tried talking to your caseworker or any medical professional you come into contact with as part of your care... they are usually able to connect you with resources?"
We do get some food delivered every two weeks from a local food bank but it's mostly rice, beans, potatoes, bread, and fruit and can't be customized even for medical dietary requirements. United Way runs the delivery program and they only let you get deliveries from one food bank, and even if I could eat all those things, the food isn't enough for two people for two weeks anyway.
I'm working on getting us Washington Basic Food (SNAP) but every time I try to call to complete the intake interview it says the wait is "at least two hours." Once we get that, I think it can be used with some grocery store delivery programs.
My doctor says he's going to talk to my Apple Health case manager to see if they have any nutritional programs that I qualify for.
So I've got some other stuff in the works, but until I'm able to take over getting the groceries again, my husband needs to be able to do it. He has a couple hours a day of good executive functioning so he's capable of grocery shopping, he just has a major blindspot when it comes to sugar.
I think maybe he was raised to equate sweets with love? Because he's constantly buying me candy or doing weird shit like offering me ice cream for breakfast (???) and every time he acts super pleased with himself for being such a great husband like he just presented me with a bouquet of roses.
It's not malicious or neglectful. It's just his brain damage means that I'm married to the human equivalent of an orange cat, and he's bringing me things he thinks I will appreciate much like a cat bringing dead mice even when you never asked for dead mice, do not want any dead mice, and have repeatedly begged for no more dead mice.
The day after I posted this AskMe, I tried an analogy -- imagine that refined sugar is alcohol and I'm an alcoholic in recovery, you wouldn't bring home beer, right? -- and that seemed to make an impression on him about how seriously I would like him to take this. But who knows if he'll remember.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:15 AM on September 25
Not specifically about sugar, but this video from Chris Van Tulleken (and his book, Ultra Processed People) really changed how I view food and nutrition, more-so than other videos that talked about sugar alone. My favorite quote from him: “[Ultra-processed food isn't] food. It’s an industrially produced edible substance.” Every time I go shopping now, or reach for a snack at work? I think of that. I'll put stuff back. I'll pick something else, like an actual fruit for once. I also like him a lot because he seems very sensitive to how he talks about food and weight that doesn't come off judgmental.
Another 30 days vid I found in my YouTube history (there's a lot of these out there)
Matt d'Avella: I quit sugar for 30 days
I can't find the video that talked about how the sugar industry stepped into the lobbying ring, but there's at least one documentary out there (Big Sugar, 2005), though I haven't watched it. For me, at least, who really needs to cut down added sugars to help with cholesterol, I've found that videos on processed foods as a whole has done more to change my thinking than specific topics. I hope you can find the rabbit hole that works!
posted by lesser weasel at 4:33 AM on September 26
Another 30 days vid I found in my YouTube history (there's a lot of these out there)
Matt d'Avella: I quit sugar for 30 days
I can't find the video that talked about how the sugar industry stepped into the lobbying ring, but there's at least one documentary out there (Big Sugar, 2005), though I haven't watched it. For me, at least, who really needs to cut down added sugars to help with cholesterol, I've found that videos on processed foods as a whole has done more to change my thinking than specific topics. I hope you can find the rabbit hole that works!
posted by lesser weasel at 4:33 AM on September 26
I think you both might benefit from meal and snack planning together in light of your current health issues. That way it’s not just about what he can’t bring you but how he can help, like he could make or bring you the kinds of snacks that are healthful. My recommendation would be to get the food bank food, plan meals and snacks, then shop for what’s needed using a very specific and visual list.
Pre-diabetes and diabetes nutritional advice can be hard. But planning helps. For your food bank haul, if it’s not allergies, with the possible exception of the bread you can eat everything there - it’s a matter of how much and in what combination. White rice, for example, increases in resistant starch if you cook it and then keep it in the fridge for 24 hours - if you then have a dish that’s half beans and half rice, you’re fairly far down the glycemic index, especially if you can add an egg. Potatoes and beans can be similar. But both require planning and prep. If you can shift your spouse’s script to “I bought this tasty thing” to “I made this thing for you tasty” it can really help.
My MIL has turned her diabetes around living with us. I have put a lot of time and effort into making sure our basic meals are what she needs (she’s flipped those needs around a lot, right now it’s a vegetarian Mastering Diabetes plan). But my husband also sometimes forgot and brought her treats. A few times she threw them out or gave them to my kids, gently but right away, in front of him. Watching a non-diet root beer go down the drain was both powerful on her part — better the waste than start drinking it again — but also shocked him. I know that would be really hard on a strict budget but it is an option.
Also if you need ideas I would post another question. Provided no one puts the spoon back in the peanut butter (ew), two spoonfuls of 100% peanut butter is an at-home protein bar. (Nuts on their own don’t last long here :)), etc. AskMe might create a “yes” list he can consult for treats.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:10 AM on September 26
Pre-diabetes and diabetes nutritional advice can be hard. But planning helps. For your food bank haul, if it’s not allergies, with the possible exception of the bread you can eat everything there - it’s a matter of how much and in what combination. White rice, for example, increases in resistant starch if you cook it and then keep it in the fridge for 24 hours - if you then have a dish that’s half beans and half rice, you’re fairly far down the glycemic index, especially if you can add an egg. Potatoes and beans can be similar. But both require planning and prep. If you can shift your spouse’s script to “I bought this tasty thing” to “I made this thing for you tasty” it can really help.
My MIL has turned her diabetes around living with us. I have put a lot of time and effort into making sure our basic meals are what she needs (she’s flipped those needs around a lot, right now it’s a vegetarian Mastering Diabetes plan). But my husband also sometimes forgot and brought her treats. A few times she threw them out or gave them to my kids, gently but right away, in front of him. Watching a non-diet root beer go down the drain was both powerful on her part — better the waste than start drinking it again — but also shocked him. I know that would be really hard on a strict budget but it is an option.
Also if you need ideas I would post another question. Provided no one puts the spoon back in the peanut butter (ew), two spoonfuls of 100% peanut butter is an at-home protein bar. (Nuts on their own don’t last long here :)), etc. AskMe might create a “yes” list he can consult for treats.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:10 AM on September 26
Not specifically about sugar, but this video yt from Chris Van Tulleken
I want to second this recommendation. I've been in the habit of checking ingredients for a long time, but since seeing that talk (Chris van Tulleken speaking at the Royal Institution about ultra-processed food) earlier this year, I've been paying *lot* more attention to what I'm seeing when I do.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 6:19 AM on September 28
I want to second this recommendation. I've been in the habit of checking ingredients for a long time, but since seeing that talk (Chris van Tulleken speaking at the Royal Institution about ultra-processed food) earlier this year, I've been paying *lot* more attention to what I'm seeing when I do.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 6:19 AM on September 28
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Also: ever try taking a dog's full food dish away while doggo is having dinner? Yep, that. Our food behavior is remarkably similar to that of our canine friends.
All of that being said, perhaps try a "challenge" approach instead of scare tactics, since it sounds to me like he won't respond well to that. Gamify it, with a prize of some kind at the end of the challenge period.
Eric Berg, DC: What Happens to Your Body When You Quit Sugar for 14 Days
Goal Guys: I Quit Sugar for 30 Days...Here's What Happened
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 11:51 PM on September 22