When it comes to Race in the Workplace, No We're Not Roger That
June 24, 2024 11:22 AM Subscribe
What is a professional and tactful way to let an older white woman colleague know that she's not-seeing me?
I'm 5 weeks into a new job in a post-secondary environment, and I'm paired up with a white woman coworker who's somewhere in her 50s. In an office of ~15, the majority are white women and at least the majority of those are in their 50s. Including myself there are ~5 people of visible color (~1/3 of the team) spread out across the different subdepartments. The other 4 visible minorities appear to be young (i.e. 20s or early 30s) which is tellingly characteristic of the International Student demographic Canadian society that appears to be relying on as drivers for academic institutions.
I am older (early 40s). I am born and raised here. I am educated here, with a post-secondary degree in a science-based field. I'm also pretty candid about myself -- because I know I have to be, because people are not likely to see me. I know I'm very likely to be stereotyped as an international student (speaking english with no accent, have a post-secondary degree obtained here, having grown up locally here -- none of that ever really matters as much as skin). I try quite hard with both white and non-white people to communicate my existence (because I know the domestic culture is such that both groups will proceed as though I don't exist), and this will happen while having hired me to represent the success of said groups' ability to work well together. So there is an actively dynamic juxtaposition at work here.
Because the work we do pertains to ethics, in an increasingly ethnoculturally diverse landscape and work environment, I need to be able to function authentically. For a group of 50s white women (i.e. the emergent caste) who hold implicit power to collectively decide that I'm different and/or "other"... this can be difficult to articulate. Because the work we do involves demonstrating capacity for implementing a solid ethics foundation with respect to data research and collection as it relates to ethnicity and race, I can't afford to be unauthentically seen by these colleagues -- not if I am expected to do the job well.
Especially when it comes to the "black box" of race. I can go deeper, and at this time with the coworker I am paired up with, it feels like she can only go 5%, whereas I can go much deeper (e.g. 85% -- no concrete metric available to really be sure). It feels like because Indigenous reconciliation is the current political hot-button flavor, that's become a permission to consider other race-related concerns as secondary (no it's not). In her mind, whatever race-based issue I might represent is absolutely and concretely separate and apart from Indigenous race-based issues (no they're not). And furthermore, to assume that I have 0% experience with race-based issues from the Indigenous perspective is also grossly wrong... but I usually don't go there because I don't think it should be necessary to disclose the reality of race-based trends in domestic child abuse in workplace conversations which are not intended for the gravity of that topic... but how to tactfully express this??
With this most proximate coworker, it does feel like she's tried to box me in by trying to insist how good the yoga sessions at the local onsite gym are (which she sometimes attends during her lunch). I am not interested in yoga. I have never been interested in yoga. I am trying to be polite about this, and so far while it does feel like she's picked up on it, it also feels like she is too insecure to bring it up directly. There have been some silencing comments. For example she has already tried to tell me that she "had it hard too" as a woman working in a male-dominated field, but also that overall she "never had a bad experience" (therefore we won't be talking about bad experiences working with white men in the field we're both educated in but only one of us can demonstrate a successful career in). She's also tried to describe my ability to do a task as "magic". While I realize this may sound very positive and intended as a compliment, it can actually become dehumanizing. I am part of the same species and once you go beyond that epidermal veil, what I can do is what anyone can do. I understand that with the veiling of skin color coupled with unacknowledged ignorance of humans at a species level, sometimes what I can do may appear to be magic; however, I strongly assure it is absolutely not magic. It is a reflection of human being attempting to do a human thing.
Another example is if I try mentioning the country my mom is from; this is met with more dismissiveness, and yet... if she needs to prattle on about her family, her current instabilities, travelling across country to attend her son's graduation, how stressful it's been to set up her second house in a nicer part of the province because her husband has been hired at another institution, etc etc etc, that's all fine. But I can't relate. I, on the other hand, am an outcast to my family. I've had to put down a parent (as opposed to enjoying a full suite of ongoing relationships of fulfilling family support). I spent 3 years quite sick as a result of side effects to the vaccine. And worst of all, I lost my partner in the 2020 pandemic who lived his life as "Indigenous" in a country that can't sustain effective dialogues about mixed-race realities. Last week her dismissive comment was that when people in their 50s travel home suddenly, it's because someone in their family is sick (a staff member took a sudden leave, prompting this comment)... and I couldn't even... after sitting through a 2h workshop on Indigenous research ethics with her, I really had a clear sense that this woman is going to be too much work to get there [to the fantastic space of emotional safety and mutual understanding required for doing really difficult but also really rewarding work], and how am I supposed further bend in order to make this work? I have tried gently broaching this topic in the usual manner. For example, I try talking about my "family" even if it is just my mom and even if it does not adhere to the North American cookie cutter nuclear family model. But I can tell, it's just Not. As. Important. as a white woman's life is. Then if I deviate from the preconceived mold of how someone who looks like too much like an international student should perform, that's not cool either. It's not overt, but enough indicators are there such that it's not exactly subtle. It is microaggressive and it is exhausting.
Fwiw our boss (40sish white woman) seems pretty good so far, but will likely falter on the topic of race... even though part of our job is to talk about race in the context of research ethics, and I am the only race-based face at the table. Until we navigate past this hump, we simply don't have the established trust yet.
TLDR; what advice do you have for being tactful with an older well-educated liberal-leaning white woman coworker who thinks she's doing indian cultural competency well because she does yoga, but is actually missing the mark?
I'm 5 weeks into a new job in a post-secondary environment, and I'm paired up with a white woman coworker who's somewhere in her 50s. In an office of ~15, the majority are white women and at least the majority of those are in their 50s. Including myself there are ~5 people of visible color (~1/3 of the team) spread out across the different subdepartments. The other 4 visible minorities appear to be young (i.e. 20s or early 30s) which is tellingly characteristic of the International Student demographic Canadian society that appears to be relying on as drivers for academic institutions.
I am older (early 40s). I am born and raised here. I am educated here, with a post-secondary degree in a science-based field. I'm also pretty candid about myself -- because I know I have to be, because people are not likely to see me. I know I'm very likely to be stereotyped as an international student (speaking english with no accent, have a post-secondary degree obtained here, having grown up locally here -- none of that ever really matters as much as skin). I try quite hard with both white and non-white people to communicate my existence (because I know the domestic culture is such that both groups will proceed as though I don't exist), and this will happen while having hired me to represent the success of said groups' ability to work well together. So there is an actively dynamic juxtaposition at work here.
Because the work we do pertains to ethics, in an increasingly ethnoculturally diverse landscape and work environment, I need to be able to function authentically. For a group of 50s white women (i.e. the emergent caste) who hold implicit power to collectively decide that I'm different and/or "other"... this can be difficult to articulate. Because the work we do involves demonstrating capacity for implementing a solid ethics foundation with respect to data research and collection as it relates to ethnicity and race, I can't afford to be unauthentically seen by these colleagues -- not if I am expected to do the job well.
Especially when it comes to the "black box" of race. I can go deeper, and at this time with the coworker I am paired up with, it feels like she can only go 5%, whereas I can go much deeper (e.g. 85% -- no concrete metric available to really be sure). It feels like because Indigenous reconciliation is the current political hot-button flavor, that's become a permission to consider other race-related concerns as secondary (no it's not). In her mind, whatever race-based issue I might represent is absolutely and concretely separate and apart from Indigenous race-based issues (no they're not). And furthermore, to assume that I have 0% experience with race-based issues from the Indigenous perspective is also grossly wrong... but I usually don't go there because I don't think it should be necessary to disclose the reality of race-based trends in domestic child abuse in workplace conversations which are not intended for the gravity of that topic... but how to tactfully express this??
With this most proximate coworker, it does feel like she's tried to box me in by trying to insist how good the yoga sessions at the local onsite gym are (which she sometimes attends during her lunch). I am not interested in yoga. I have never been interested in yoga. I am trying to be polite about this, and so far while it does feel like she's picked up on it, it also feels like she is too insecure to bring it up directly. There have been some silencing comments. For example she has already tried to tell me that she "had it hard too" as a woman working in a male-dominated field, but also that overall she "never had a bad experience" (therefore we won't be talking about bad experiences working with white men in the field we're both educated in but only one of us can demonstrate a successful career in). She's also tried to describe my ability to do a task as "magic". While I realize this may sound very positive and intended as a compliment, it can actually become dehumanizing. I am part of the same species and once you go beyond that epidermal veil, what I can do is what anyone can do. I understand that with the veiling of skin color coupled with unacknowledged ignorance of humans at a species level, sometimes what I can do may appear to be magic; however, I strongly assure it is absolutely not magic. It is a reflection of human being attempting to do a human thing.
Another example is if I try mentioning the country my mom is from; this is met with more dismissiveness, and yet... if she needs to prattle on about her family, her current instabilities, travelling across country to attend her son's graduation, how stressful it's been to set up her second house in a nicer part of the province because her husband has been hired at another institution, etc etc etc, that's all fine. But I can't relate. I, on the other hand, am an outcast to my family. I've had to put down a parent (as opposed to enjoying a full suite of ongoing relationships of fulfilling family support). I spent 3 years quite sick as a result of side effects to the vaccine. And worst of all, I lost my partner in the 2020 pandemic who lived his life as "Indigenous" in a country that can't sustain effective dialogues about mixed-race realities. Last week her dismissive comment was that when people in their 50s travel home suddenly, it's because someone in their family is sick (a staff member took a sudden leave, prompting this comment)... and I couldn't even... after sitting through a 2h workshop on Indigenous research ethics with her, I really had a clear sense that this woman is going to be too much work to get there [to the fantastic space of emotional safety and mutual understanding required for doing really difficult but also really rewarding work], and how am I supposed further bend in order to make this work? I have tried gently broaching this topic in the usual manner. For example, I try talking about my "family" even if it is just my mom and even if it does not adhere to the North American cookie cutter nuclear family model. But I can tell, it's just Not. As. Important. as a white woman's life is. Then if I deviate from the preconceived mold of how someone who looks like too much like an international student should perform, that's not cool either. It's not overt, but enough indicators are there such that it's not exactly subtle. It is microaggressive and it is exhausting.
Fwiw our boss (40sish white woman) seems pretty good so far, but will likely falter on the topic of race... even though part of our job is to talk about race in the context of research ethics, and I am the only race-based face at the table. Until we navigate past this hump, we simply don't have the established trust yet.
TLDR; what advice do you have for being tactful with an older well-educated liberal-leaning white woman coworker who thinks she's doing indian cultural competency well because she does yoga, but is actually missing the mark?
I don't have the cultural experience you do, so I can't advise you from the perspective of someone who has had this same experience and found a way to make it better.
But! I am a 46 year old white woman and I tried to read this imagining that you and I were coworkers and you were talking about me. I did this so I could try to give you advice on how you could approach me to interact differently with you, but I actually can't pick out exactly what you want her to do differently. I am sure there is something in there, but I would not be surprised that it was not obvious to her, and it's also not obvious to me.
That might be a cultural blind spot on my part, and it seems to be what your question is about? If that is the case, are you interested in working with this person to help them see past/into said blind spot, or do you just want them to know that they have one and that you expect them to educate themselves more about it?
If you said that you had noticed I had a cultural blind spot, and asked me if I would be interested in learning more from you about it, I would receive that very warmly. I might be a bit embarrassed, but I'd also be grateful.
If you said "you have a cultural blind spot and I'm not able to educate you about it, please get some more education on this subject," to me, or I read this and you were my coworker, and I was able to get past the way it made me feel (this person does not like me at all and thinks I am cringe AF), I would not share anything of myself with you unless directly asked, and I would also be hurt but I would get over it and would be glad I knew where I stood with you. I would probably look for opportunities to ask you questions about yourself and your perspective, if you seemed open to it, but only if I wanted to have a better working relationship with you. Otherwise I would be cordial and polite but not engage further.
So -- long story short -- I'd recommend you get very clear (as sagc says above) about how you want your interactions to change and take your next steps with that in mind.
posted by pazazygeek at 12:34 PM on June 24, 2024 [29 favorites]
But! I am a 46 year old white woman and I tried to read this imagining that you and I were coworkers and you were talking about me. I did this so I could try to give you advice on how you could approach me to interact differently with you, but I actually can't pick out exactly what you want her to do differently. I am sure there is something in there, but I would not be surprised that it was not obvious to her, and it's also not obvious to me.
That might be a cultural blind spot on my part, and it seems to be what your question is about? If that is the case, are you interested in working with this person to help them see past/into said blind spot, or do you just want them to know that they have one and that you expect them to educate themselves more about it?
If you said that you had noticed I had a cultural blind spot, and asked me if I would be interested in learning more from you about it, I would receive that very warmly. I might be a bit embarrassed, but I'd also be grateful.
If you said "you have a cultural blind spot and I'm not able to educate you about it, please get some more education on this subject," to me, or I read this and you were my coworker, and I was able to get past the way it made me feel (this person does not like me at all and thinks I am cringe AF), I would not share anything of myself with you unless directly asked, and I would also be hurt but I would get over it and would be glad I knew where I stood with you. I would probably look for opportunities to ask you questions about yourself and your perspective, if you seemed open to it, but only if I wanted to have a better working relationship with you. Otherwise I would be cordial and polite but not engage further.
So -- long story short -- I'd recommend you get very clear (as sagc says above) about how you want your interactions to change and take your next steps with that in mind.
posted by pazazygeek at 12:34 PM on June 24, 2024 [29 favorites]
It would also be helpful to understand what changes you would like her to make because, as coworkers, you will be sharing a significant amount of time together, and which you think are necessary for you to be able to productively work together. It's nice to be friends with, or at least friendly with, coworkers, but with some people, the goal should just to be professional, respectful, understanding, and collegial. This will vary depending on the work, the workplace, and the individuals, but if a coworker tends to "prattle on," sometimes the best response is to smile, explain that you have TPS reports waiting, and walk away.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:47 PM on June 24, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:47 PM on June 24, 2024 [5 favorites]
She sounds generally self-centered, which may or may not have anything to do with the color of her skin. There are many people in this world who would rather prattle on about their life but not want to hear about the lives of others. I've worked with people like that, and you just have to get used to being rude and saying 'well, I need to get back to XYZ...". They won't give you an opening; you just have to interrupt them.
The comments about yoga and other microagressions are indeed rude and ignorant. She may think she's trying to forge a connection, but ... she's failing. You can either ignore those and just move on, or you can put them back on her: "My xyz yoga is so authentic. You should come." "No thank you. I've told you I'm not interested. Why do you keep bringing this up?"
The 'magic' statement, go ahead an push back on that too: "Wow, you've got the magic touch." "Oh, I guess I can see why you think that, but I've really found xyz training and experience to be valuable in being more familiar with this program. I learned everything by doing abc. I can show you if you're interested, or send you the link for the training program I completed." You can be appreciative and dismissive at the same time.
It's hard to parse how much time you need to spend with her, and whether this is a her problem, or a problem with the overall culture of your department.
posted by hydra77 at 1:03 PM on June 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
The comments about yoga and other microagressions are indeed rude and ignorant. She may think she's trying to forge a connection, but ... she's failing. You can either ignore those and just move on, or you can put them back on her: "My xyz yoga is so authentic. You should come." "No thank you. I've told you I'm not interested. Why do you keep bringing this up?"
The 'magic' statement, go ahead an push back on that too: "Wow, you've got the magic touch." "Oh, I guess I can see why you think that, but I've really found xyz training and experience to be valuable in being more familiar with this program. I learned everything by doing abc. I can show you if you're interested, or send you the link for the training program I completed." You can be appreciative and dismissive at the same time.
It's hard to parse how much time you need to spend with her, and whether this is a her problem, or a problem with the overall culture of your department.
posted by hydra77 at 1:03 PM on June 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
Honestly, it seems like 90% of these interactions have nothing to do with work and I don't see the need to engage any of them about any of it at all. I can hear very clearly how much you want them to understand you and that is laudable but in this case, you are dealing with people who are incapable of doing this. They have already showed you this and I would not expend what precious energy you have trying to change them. So I would greatly step back in my interactions with them and keep it business only. As long as they aren't icing you out of work related conversations or making it difficult for you to your job, I say grey rock them all.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 1:06 PM on June 24, 2024 [6 favorites]
posted by tafetta, darling! at 1:06 PM on June 24, 2024 [6 favorites]
I'm 5 weeks into a new job...
Talk about your hobbies, likes, dislikes, where and what you like to eat, favorite tv shows or podcast, etc. Establish yourself as a friendly, likable co-worker. That way when the important issues come up, others are more likely to take you seriously.
Yes, that sucks, but humans are odd creatures at times. Building a bit of a rapport helps in the long term.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:11 PM on June 24, 2024 [36 favorites]
Talk about your hobbies, likes, dislikes, where and what you like to eat, favorite tv shows or podcast, etc. Establish yourself as a friendly, likable co-worker. That way when the important issues come up, others are more likely to take you seriously.
Yes, that sucks, but humans are odd creatures at times. Building a bit of a rapport helps in the long term.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:11 PM on June 24, 2024 [36 favorites]
Another example is if I try mentioning the country my mom is from; this is met with more dismissiveness, and yet... if she needs to prattle on about her family, her current instabilities, travelling across country to attend her son's graduation, how stressful it's been to set up her second house in a nicer part of the province because her husband has been hired at another institution, etc etc etc, that's all fine. But I can't relate.
Right, no, how could you? She sounds like an exhausting wall of mixed condescension and braggadocious TMI. A bit silly, a bit thoughtless, relatively surface-level, and, despite being in her 50s while you are in your 40s, not yet really tried by life or grief or suffering as you have been. She may have decided that she is "the adult" in this relationship, but in fact it sounds like she's the one who has something to learn and a lot of growing to do. Will she learn and grow? Who knows, who cares: it's not your circus, it's not your monkeys. Meanwhile, stop wasting energy on her. You do not have to offer her depth when she has given you nothing but cheap, shallow, top-of-mind prattle. Practice enigmatic smiles and glib repartee. It is not your job to make her understand you or any other important thing. Be courteous but slight in your responses to her conversational onslaught, and let her read into that what she will; she will, anyway, after all: she has proven multiple times that you are powerless to affect her conclusions about you. Meanwhile, continue to do good work and, as Brandon Blatcher says, be pleasant to be around. If eventually you find anyone there worthy of your friendship, wonderful--then you can share true and important things about yourself with that person, but for now don't cast your pearls before swine.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:00 PM on June 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
Right, no, how could you? She sounds like an exhausting wall of mixed condescension and braggadocious TMI. A bit silly, a bit thoughtless, relatively surface-level, and, despite being in her 50s while you are in your 40s, not yet really tried by life or grief or suffering as you have been. She may have decided that she is "the adult" in this relationship, but in fact it sounds like she's the one who has something to learn and a lot of growing to do. Will she learn and grow? Who knows, who cares: it's not your circus, it's not your monkeys. Meanwhile, stop wasting energy on her. You do not have to offer her depth when she has given you nothing but cheap, shallow, top-of-mind prattle. Practice enigmatic smiles and glib repartee. It is not your job to make her understand you or any other important thing. Be courteous but slight in your responses to her conversational onslaught, and let her read into that what she will; she will, anyway, after all: she has proven multiple times that you are powerless to affect her conclusions about you. Meanwhile, continue to do good work and, as Brandon Blatcher says, be pleasant to be around. If eventually you find anyone there worthy of your friendship, wonderful--then you can share true and important things about yourself with that person, but for now don't cast your pearls before swine.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:00 PM on June 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
So, I'm white. For context. I can't relate my specific experience to yours. However...
I recognized your writing style with the tiny text asides from a previous thread we both commented in, so went into look at your profile, which is certainly...there. I think we can relate on a level of having some extreme beliefs relative to the rest of the population.
Mine is feminism. I'll vote Dem "for the kids" but it's not a good enough way to describe how I feel. I'm mad. White male supremacy is a disease, and our entire male dominated western power structure is an irreparable disaster and we need to just burn it straight to the ground and start over. In my opinion. Am I an anarchist? I guess maybe, sure.
One of the first times I shared my ✨ radicalized ✨ opinions at work was pre-covid, back in the days where folks would hang out in the break room at 4 for happy hour before heading home. I don't remember the context but Ruth Bader Ginsberg came up and I said something like "you know what I think about a lot? Her thing about how many women on SCOTUS would be equal, and she said nine, because it's been 9 men." And I said why not take it farther? It's been nine straight white wasp men, maybe equality is a SCOTUS with 9 black trans jurists, or 9 queer atheist jurists, or, or.. and so on. And coworkers were like "but that wouldn't be equal?" and then I was like "but why 😈 not" and it was a small to-do. My fun fanfic/thought experiment made a few folks think I was a lunatic. (Neat!)
Anyway my very beleaguered point is that when you're a person who has extreme beliefs that lie easily a standard deviation outside the mainstream, you've got to do a few things. One of them is resign yourself to an understanding that you will die mad about it. White male supremacy will not be fixed in our lifetime. Sucks, but it's true. Another thing you need to do is realize you won't make a lot of friends. Which is fine, for me, I don't need people to like me.
And then finally, for me, I have to be authentic for myself. That means I do share my opinions, even if they're going to ruffle someone else's feathers. In a work context, you've got to tread the line carefully to keep things appropriate. But I'm quite happy to be an outsize voice who chimes in now and again to help nudge coworkers into, I hope, a slightly broader perspective on certain topics. So I definitely think you should speak up more.
A key framing phrase I've found successful is, "from what I've personally experienced with ______, ______". Note that this isn't "based on my experience," which rubs people the wrong way. But rather, you get to preface things with a reminder that your experience of the world is not the same as theirs, and then share how that has impacted your view on some particular thing.
For what it's worth I don't see anything that's fixable in your coworker's behavior. There's nothing actionable to report or call out. You can only enact change on your own behavior. You can bring your authentic self to the situation, and if any productive conversation can result from that, fantastic.
posted by phunniemee at 2:58 PM on June 24, 2024 [29 favorites]
I recognized your writing style with the tiny text asides from a previous thread we both commented in, so went into look at your profile, which is certainly...there. I think we can relate on a level of having some extreme beliefs relative to the rest of the population.
Mine is feminism. I'll vote Dem "for the kids" but it's not a good enough way to describe how I feel. I'm mad. White male supremacy is a disease, and our entire male dominated western power structure is an irreparable disaster and we need to just burn it straight to the ground and start over. In my opinion. Am I an anarchist? I guess maybe, sure.
One of the first times I shared my ✨ radicalized ✨ opinions at work was pre-covid, back in the days where folks would hang out in the break room at 4 for happy hour before heading home. I don't remember the context but Ruth Bader Ginsberg came up and I said something like "you know what I think about a lot? Her thing about how many women on SCOTUS would be equal, and she said nine, because it's been 9 men." And I said why not take it farther? It's been nine straight white wasp men, maybe equality is a SCOTUS with 9 black trans jurists, or 9 queer atheist jurists, or, or.. and so on. And coworkers were like "but that wouldn't be equal?" and then I was like "but why 😈 not" and it was a small to-do. My fun fanfic/thought experiment made a few folks think I was a lunatic. (Neat!)
Anyway my very beleaguered point is that when you're a person who has extreme beliefs that lie easily a standard deviation outside the mainstream, you've got to do a few things. One of them is resign yourself to an understanding that you will die mad about it. White male supremacy will not be fixed in our lifetime. Sucks, but it's true. Another thing you need to do is realize you won't make a lot of friends. Which is fine, for me, I don't need people to like me.
And then finally, for me, I have to be authentic for myself. That means I do share my opinions, even if they're going to ruffle someone else's feathers. In a work context, you've got to tread the line carefully to keep things appropriate. But I'm quite happy to be an outsize voice who chimes in now and again to help nudge coworkers into, I hope, a slightly broader perspective on certain topics. So I definitely think you should speak up more.
A key framing phrase I've found successful is, "from what I've personally experienced with ______, ______". Note that this isn't "based on my experience," which rubs people the wrong way. But rather, you get to preface things with a reminder that your experience of the world is not the same as theirs, and then share how that has impacted your view on some particular thing.
For what it's worth I don't see anything that's fixable in your coworker's behavior. There's nothing actionable to report or call out. You can only enact change on your own behavior. You can bring your authentic self to the situation, and if any productive conversation can result from that, fantastic.
posted by phunniemee at 2:58 PM on June 24, 2024 [29 favorites]
I'm a 50+ Asian guy, and I may have an alternate view on this. My first impression (I need to re-read your entire missive to be absolutely sure) is that she's trying to relate to your experience, but she can't help but using her privileged experience to do so. I could throw out some pop-psychology crap like "she's just active defensive" but that would be insulting and would not help.
I agree with others that the behavior is more like passive-aggressiveness and your response should be just your authentic self.
If you want to engage, I find that the active listening trick helps... Just repeat what she said, and ask "What do you mean by that?" Give her a chance to explain... or give her enough rope to hang herself... it's on her.
If you don't want to engage, then reply with "I see. Thanks for offering your perspective." And leave.
posted by kschang at 3:19 PM on June 24, 2024 [14 favorites]
I agree with others that the behavior is more like passive-aggressiveness and your response should be just your authentic self.
If you want to engage, I find that the active listening trick helps... Just repeat what she said, and ask "What do you mean by that?" Give her a chance to explain... or give her enough rope to hang herself... it's on her.
If you don't want to engage, then reply with "I see. Thanks for offering your perspective." And leave.
posted by kschang at 3:19 PM on June 24, 2024 [14 favorites]
Talk about your hobbies, likes, dislikes, where and what you like to eat, favorite tv shows or podcast, etc. Establish yourself as a friendly, likable co-worker.
You do not have to offer her depth when she has given you nothing but cheap, shallow, top-of-mind prattle.
she's trying to relate to your experience, but she can't help but using her privileged experience to do so.
I came to say more or less these two things. She does sound condescending an annoying, but/and it is also possible that she sees your efforts to discuss things in more depth as too much too soon, considering you've only been co-workers for five weeks. There's a bit of a contradiction between that idea and her wanting to talk about her own family etc., but she might not see it because she's familiar with her own stories, whereas yours are something new.
You're certainly under no obligation to stifle yourself or actively try to make friends with this woman, but if you want to have a good working relationship with her, and by extension your other colleagues, it might be worth finding some superficial things you have in common.
posted by rpfields at 5:00 PM on June 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
You do not have to offer her depth when she has given you nothing but cheap, shallow, top-of-mind prattle.
she's trying to relate to your experience, but she can't help but using her privileged experience to do so.
I came to say more or less these two things. She does sound condescending an annoying, but/and it is also possible that she sees your efforts to discuss things in more depth as too much too soon, considering you've only been co-workers for five weeks. There's a bit of a contradiction between that idea and her wanting to talk about her own family etc., but she might not see it because she's familiar with her own stories, whereas yours are something new.
You're certainly under no obligation to stifle yourself or actively try to make friends with this woman, but if you want to have a good working relationship with her, and by extension your other colleagues, it might be worth finding some superficial things you have in common.
posted by rpfields at 5:00 PM on June 24, 2024 [3 favorites]
The thing that struck me is that in a new job, it's hard to know what will be an issue forever, and what is related to being new. Like, your coworker is clearly already making it weird for you, but giving a new hire info about the gym amenities is plausible. If she's still trying to bond over yoga after six months: yikes. I didn't find the swing of how/when to contribute usefully for a few months - but it could also be that there's an entrenched method and they aren't open to new ideas at all? You may also be getting a lot more... opportunities... for casual conversation as a new person. Depending on the work structure - are you in training, or partners forever? - that may taper off, or not.
I like Brandon Blatcher's suggestion to find a light conversation topic for you, the way family stuff is for your coworker. Your adorable dog, your garden, sports, weather over the English Channel. But this is very strategic, and may run counter to your intention to be authentic?
posted by mersen at 7:49 PM on June 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
I like Brandon Blatcher's suggestion to find a light conversation topic for you, the way family stuff is for your coworker. Your adorable dog, your garden, sports, weather over the English Channel. But this is very strategic, and may run counter to your intention to be authentic?
posted by mersen at 7:49 PM on June 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
Like Brandon Blatcher and mersen, I was also primarily struck by the fact that you're only five weeks into the job. Beyond just trying to get to know people gradually, the time within the probation period (I assume that's also a thing in Canada?) is about learning how the workplace operates - figuring out the interpersonal relationship dynamics, the management style of your boss, who wields other sorts of authority not represented in their title (seniority, etc.), and just generally absorbing the work culture. Like mersen points out, it's pretty standard for some things that seem like potential problems in a new job to go away with time (and also pretty standard for unexpected problems to later develop). Maybe with time you'll learn this coworker's go-to compliment is to call someone's skills "magic." Or, maybe you'll notice that she only says this to POC coworkers, and thus you'll have a much stronger case when bringing your concerns to your boss.
But (weirdly, I know), I also agree with phunniemee that, reading between the lines a bit, it sounds like you might be holding back too much for anyone's good here. For example:
Last week her dismissive comment was that when people in their 50s travel home suddenly, it's because someone in their family is sick (a staff member took a sudden leave, prompting this comment)... and I couldn't even... after sitting through a 2h workshop on Indigenous research ethics with her, I really had a clear sense that this woman is going to be too much work to get there [to the fantastic space of emotional safety and mutual understanding required for doing really difficult but also really rewarding work], and how am I supposed further bend in order to make this work? I have tried gently broaching this topic in the usual manner. For example, I try talking about my "family"....
So admittedly I am not clear what was "dismissive" about that comment or how it relates to Indigenous research ethics - but I want to just suggest that you can have mutual understanding, more or less, with people who don't always understand your perspective - the key is your ability and willingness to communicate, and their ability and willingness to listen. If that's there, then you can have a productive work relationship with someone, even if you never become their friend. So, I'm curious what happens if you were to explain to her why her statement contradicts the training you just went through - does she listen then? And I wouldn't do this indirectly - she won't make the connection if you later start talking about your family unless you make that connection for her. I would recommend picking your battles though, and focus on instances that relate to work - like others have noted, a good way to gently nudge someone is by asking a question or by depersonalizing it.
But also, try to avoid making assumptions of subtext. Example:
There have been some silencing comments. For example she has already tried to tell me that she "had it hard too" as a woman working in a male-dominated field, but also that overall she "never had a bad experience" (therefore we won't be talking about bad experiences working with white men in the field we're both educated in but only one of us can demonstrate a successful career in).
So, I totally get why someone saying that they "had it hard too" is obnoxious, and I think that would be a great example of a moment where it would be worth pushing back a bit "Hey, when you tell me that you've had it hard too, it implies like your struggles are identical to mine and that feels dismissive of my racialized struggles." But I wouldn't assume that her noting that overall she hasn't had a bad experience means she wants to silence all discussion of inequalities in your field. You could of course in that moment ask "Just to clarify, does your positive experience make you skeptical that gender inequalities exist within the field? Or do you see your experience as lucky?" etc.
posted by coffeecat at 8:24 AM on June 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
But (weirdly, I know), I also agree with phunniemee that, reading between the lines a bit, it sounds like you might be holding back too much for anyone's good here. For example:
Last week her dismissive comment was that when people in their 50s travel home suddenly, it's because someone in their family is sick (a staff member took a sudden leave, prompting this comment)... and I couldn't even... after sitting through a 2h workshop on Indigenous research ethics with her, I really had a clear sense that this woman is going to be too much work to get there [to the fantastic space of emotional safety and mutual understanding required for doing really difficult but also really rewarding work], and how am I supposed further bend in order to make this work? I have tried gently broaching this topic in the usual manner. For example, I try talking about my "family"....
So admittedly I am not clear what was "dismissive" about that comment or how it relates to Indigenous research ethics - but I want to just suggest that you can have mutual understanding, more or less, with people who don't always understand your perspective - the key is your ability and willingness to communicate, and their ability and willingness to listen. If that's there, then you can have a productive work relationship with someone, even if you never become their friend. So, I'm curious what happens if you were to explain to her why her statement contradicts the training you just went through - does she listen then? And I wouldn't do this indirectly - she won't make the connection if you later start talking about your family unless you make that connection for her. I would recommend picking your battles though, and focus on instances that relate to work - like others have noted, a good way to gently nudge someone is by asking a question or by depersonalizing it.
But also, try to avoid making assumptions of subtext. Example:
There have been some silencing comments. For example she has already tried to tell me that she "had it hard too" as a woman working in a male-dominated field, but also that overall she "never had a bad experience" (therefore we won't be talking about bad experiences working with white men in the field we're both educated in but only one of us can demonstrate a successful career in).
So, I totally get why someone saying that they "had it hard too" is obnoxious, and I think that would be a great example of a moment where it would be worth pushing back a bit "Hey, when you tell me that you've had it hard too, it implies like your struggles are identical to mine and that feels dismissive of my racialized struggles." But I wouldn't assume that her noting that overall she hasn't had a bad experience means she wants to silence all discussion of inequalities in your field. You could of course in that moment ask "Just to clarify, does your positive experience make you skeptical that gender inequalities exist within the field? Or do you see your experience as lucky?" etc.
posted by coffeecat at 8:24 AM on June 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
Last week her dismissive comment was that when people in their 50s travel home suddenly, it's because someone in their family is sick (a staff member took a sudden leave, prompting this comment)... and I couldn't even...
What would you have liked her to do? Because on the one hand, you shouldn't really talk about why other co-workers go on leave, on the other hand, I can see someone be like "they had to take an abrupt leave, I hope everything is ok". What was dismissive about her comment? Was it like, "this asshole just up an left without giving anyone a heads up"?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:53 AM on June 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
What would you have liked her to do? Because on the one hand, you shouldn't really talk about why other co-workers go on leave, on the other hand, I can see someone be like "they had to take an abrupt leave, I hope everything is ok". What was dismissive about her comment? Was it like, "this asshole just up an left without giving anyone a heads up"?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:53 AM on June 25, 2024 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you for the comments that took the described demographics into account and responded with wisdom gained from lived experience in this dynamic. It's not like White Women in their 50s are leaving the societal ecosystem anytime soon, so thank you very much for the few tips I might actually be able to use.
Yes, it is exactly this -- using privileged experience to force a dialogue, and not owning the harm that does while pretending to care about integrity in human research ethics. And then using privileged experience to control what can be talked about, while pretending to be representative. No wonder why our planet, our species and our offspring are f**Ked.
The reason I highlight skin color is because I sure notice that the White Women here have Got. Each. Other's. Backs. when it comes to making sure they don't have to ever feel bad/physiologically experience ego fragility.
Re: dismissiveness. It's how when I try to speak up to add a comment, I get talked over and then the person who talked over me does not take time or space to revisit what I was trying to say (but if we don't make time and space for every single thing they say, oh well, feel the wrath of the privileged invisibilizing our housing security again).
And because the expectations were not clear, the changes I would like to see is stop shutting down the conversation when it makes you uncomfortable, or acknowledge that your discomfort with anything I say in general really hinders our capacity to develop a stronger working relationship. Shouldn't be rocket science, but this is "multicultural" Canada we're talking about.
Fwiw I have tried talking about hobbies like boating, hiking and playing music. Guess what -- it falls utterly flat, and I can only guess based on 40+ years of surviving Canadian Racism it's because it's too much work to imagine that non-white people living in Canada do such things to an equitable standard as that for White People. Clearly I was doing wrong to try and match her by relating on my experiences of family, and well... so I guess there's nothing superficial available to talk about, so it is what it is. That's what makes it a caste -- the normalization of behaviors based on an established ethnonormativity that continues on unquestioned... so when once my Othering is normalized by the established caste, my "career" stint will be done here anyway. No wonder there's such high turnover. Clearly it's an Us Problem... even though we don't own the Circus, hmmmm ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by human ecologist at 1:56 PM on June 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
Yes, it is exactly this -- using privileged experience to force a dialogue, and not owning the harm that does while pretending to care about integrity in human research ethics. And then using privileged experience to control what can be talked about, while pretending to be representative. No wonder why our planet, our species and our offspring are f**Ked.
The reason I highlight skin color is because I sure notice that the White Women here have Got. Each. Other's. Backs. when it comes to making sure they don't have to ever feel bad/physiologically experience ego fragility.
Re: dismissiveness. It's how when I try to speak up to add a comment, I get talked over and then the person who talked over me does not take time or space to revisit what I was trying to say (but if we don't make time and space for every single thing they say, oh well, feel the wrath of the privileged invisibilizing our housing security again).
And because the expectations were not clear, the changes I would like to see is stop shutting down the conversation when it makes you uncomfortable, or acknowledge that your discomfort with anything I say in general really hinders our capacity to develop a stronger working relationship. Shouldn't be rocket science, but this is "multicultural" Canada we're talking about.
Fwiw I have tried talking about hobbies like boating, hiking and playing music. Guess what -- it falls utterly flat, and I can only guess based on 40+ years of surviving Canadian Racism it's because it's too much work to imagine that non-white people living in Canada do such things to an equitable standard as that for White People. Clearly I was doing wrong to try and match her by relating on my experiences of family, and well... so I guess there's nothing superficial available to talk about, so it is what it is. That's what makes it a caste -- the normalization of behaviors based on an established ethnonormativity that continues on unquestioned... so when once my Othering is normalized by the established caste, my "career" stint will be done here anyway. No wonder there's such high turnover. Clearly it's an Us Problem... even though we don't own the Circus, hmmmm ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by human ecologist at 1:56 PM on June 25, 2024 [3 favorites]
(but if we don't make time and space for every single thing they say, oh well, feel the wrath of the privileged invisibilizing our housing security again).
Can you clarify this statement? I'm trying to understand how their self-importance makes your housing security ....invisible? How is housing security invisible/visible?
posted by tristeza at 2:53 PM on June 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
Can you clarify this statement? I'm trying to understand how their self-importance makes your housing security ....invisible? How is housing security invisible/visible?
posted by tristeza at 2:53 PM on June 25, 2024 [1 favorite]
OK, so I’m a white lady academic and without dismissing your numerous points about microaggressions and oblivious lame comments, which I can completely visualize,* I still want to ask if you’ve considered whether it would be helpful to consider this as a sucky windbag coworker problem? I think that opens things up to numerous practical suggestions.
But I don’t think that’s what you’d say, based on my read of your post. But I wanted to ask had first, before my real question for you: if the department culture is really so painful, do you actually need to stay in this job?
If you’re that miserable after a few weeks, I recommend looking for somewhere that’s a better fit for your personal ethics and desire for actual change, rather than pseudo reconciliation, which I have certainly seen in action. I know, you probably are thinking “change from within,” but I think that requires a more tolerable baseline.
* I can easily imagine the situation because unfortunately, some university departments just suck badly, even without adding in race, which obviously makes things way worse. I worked in sponsored research for a while after my fellowship ran out and it absolutely suckedddddddd. This was in the US, where, no joke, one guy listened to Rush Limbaugh on the radio all day. (Needless to say 100% white workers, which was gross considering the racial demographics of the city.) You literally couldn’t pay me enough to keep working there and I was so relieved to transfer to support an academic department where I was often bored but didn’t feel the insane lack of fit due to terrible people.
So maybe this has been five weeks to let you know this isn’t the job for you? I know you want to make change, but I suspect this is just going to drive you crazy to have this sucky culture plus the lack of true attention to reconciliation work. Surely there are other organizations doing that work in a genuine way?
posted by ec2y at 3:45 AM on June 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
But I don’t think that’s what you’d say, based on my read of your post. But I wanted to ask had first, before my real question for you: if the department culture is really so painful, do you actually need to stay in this job?
If you’re that miserable after a few weeks, I recommend looking for somewhere that’s a better fit for your personal ethics and desire for actual change, rather than pseudo reconciliation, which I have certainly seen in action. I know, you probably are thinking “change from within,” but I think that requires a more tolerable baseline.
* I can easily imagine the situation because unfortunately, some university departments just suck badly, even without adding in race, which obviously makes things way worse. I worked in sponsored research for a while after my fellowship ran out and it absolutely suckedddddddd. This was in the US, where, no joke, one guy listened to Rush Limbaugh on the radio all day. (Needless to say 100% white workers, which was gross considering the racial demographics of the city.) You literally couldn’t pay me enough to keep working there and I was so relieved to transfer to support an academic department where I was often bored but didn’t feel the insane lack of fit due to terrible people.
So maybe this has been five weeks to let you know this isn’t the job for you? I know you want to make change, but I suspect this is just going to drive you crazy to have this sucky culture plus the lack of true attention to reconciliation work. Surely there are other organizations doing that work in a genuine way?
posted by ec2y at 3:45 AM on June 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
I've worked in a very similar environment for about 10 years with people who sound like what you're describing, also in Canada, and would hate for a coworker to feel so othered, so I would really like to help but I'm still struggling a bit to see what concrete changes you're looking for (I'm neurodivergent so please bear with me, these things aren't my forte).
Microaggressions are real and harmful and as you know, often not realized at all by people who aren't on the receiving end. All interactions you describe seem unremarkable and typical for coworker interactions, from my perspective as a white person, late 30s, who could be your coworker. I'm trying hard not to frame that in an invalidating way, as your experience is completely valid, it's just not something I would notice or understand naturally, or even after putting a lot of effort into trying to understand (which I have, believe it or not, but I remain fairly oblivious about this stuff).
Since you're asking how to tactfully inform your coworker(s) about the ways their behaviour is hurting you, I would suggest starting from a default assumption of obliviousness or unconscious racism rather than actively malicious and bigoted as in "pretending to care" "not as important" "control what can be talked about" etc. There's a lot of complex and hostile meaning being read into their behaviour that may or may not actually be intended or meant by them. If those meanings are not correct, or even if they are correct but not on a conscious level, then the response is likely to be quite defensive and incredulous. Obliviousness doesn't excuse hurtful behaviour, but might change the ideal way to correct it. On the other hand if the behaviour is due to direct, intentional racism rather than obliviousness, I'm not actually sure that there is much you can do to change things aside from leaving or involving HR for overt issues beyond the level of what's described here.
I have an unusual family background including growing up poor and being estranged from both parents, and people get weird if I mention that in conversation, so I get what you mean about not relating when people talk about cottages and other rich person stuff or having a supportive family or etc. In my own case, which I recognize is affected by being part of the racial majority, I don't believe it's an attack on me or intentional othering - people are just often unsure how to respond to large differences in background like that and can find it hard to relate to me just as I find it hard to relate to them. I also don't experience anything close to "emotional safety" or "mutual understanding" or "85% deep" (not sure if I'm interpreting that one correctly though) with anyone in any workplace and I don't think this is a typical experience for most people, although this may be a neurodivergence thing and I'm too oblivious to even see what I'm missing. Again though I do understand that the race factor is affecting things for you in ways I'm not aware of, and I'm not intending to dismiss your experience by trying to relate to it. Perhaps your coworker is also trying to relate, in her own clumsy way, and not realizing that her attempts are falling flat with you (and it sounds like the same is true when you talk about your own family in return) because your lives are so very different. I don't have a solution for that one as I've just accepted that I won't relate to people in that area.
If you were one of my coworkers, I would appreciate gentle but clear pushback on specific things in the moment like "I hate when people call my skills magic - I put a lot of effort into learning them" or "I don't want to come to yoga, I've never liked it". Or if it's more small talk then an invite "I've never liked yoga, what do you like about it? I prefer X for exercise". Or if repeatedly asked "please stop asking. I am not interested". If you want to directly educate/talk about the race issues, you could inform them that e.g. "magic" is often used to dismiss the abilities of POC (actually this is news to me so I'm grateful to learn that now so I can be careful to avoid that wording) or "People always assume that I'm into yoga because of how I look/my race, but I actually dislike it" if that is clearly what's going on, and not just a yoga-enthusiast making small talk or trying to rope in all her coworkers to join (which I have experienced). Or even just talking directly about microaggressions and pointing them out as they occur. An email immediately after the fact may be a good way to bring it up if you prefer not to talk about it in a group setting or put someone on the spot.
I also agree that your current workplace may just be unusually toxic in ways that are difficult to convey in text. In my personal experience, which I recognize may differ from my coworkers of colour, I haven't observed a noticeable (to me) difference in reaction when people who are white or other races talk about their hobbies at work. It is possible that your workplace is unusually bad in this area, or it is possible that I'm oblivious to the microaggressions that are happening (or probably most likely, both). I would very much appreciate pushback in the latter case, but it's hard to give more tangible suggestions without knowing exactly what "falls utterly flat" looks like and how that differs from the reaction to my own small talk attempts, which I could often describe the same way.
posted by randomnity at 9:00 AM on June 26, 2024 [8 favorites]
Microaggressions are real and harmful and as you know, often not realized at all by people who aren't on the receiving end. All interactions you describe seem unremarkable and typical for coworker interactions, from my perspective as a white person, late 30s, who could be your coworker. I'm trying hard not to frame that in an invalidating way, as your experience is completely valid, it's just not something I would notice or understand naturally, or even after putting a lot of effort into trying to understand (which I have, believe it or not, but I remain fairly oblivious about this stuff).
Since you're asking how to tactfully inform your coworker(s) about the ways their behaviour is hurting you, I would suggest starting from a default assumption of obliviousness or unconscious racism rather than actively malicious and bigoted as in "pretending to care" "not as important" "control what can be talked about" etc. There's a lot of complex and hostile meaning being read into their behaviour that may or may not actually be intended or meant by them. If those meanings are not correct, or even if they are correct but not on a conscious level, then the response is likely to be quite defensive and incredulous. Obliviousness doesn't excuse hurtful behaviour, but might change the ideal way to correct it. On the other hand if the behaviour is due to direct, intentional racism rather than obliviousness, I'm not actually sure that there is much you can do to change things aside from leaving or involving HR for overt issues beyond the level of what's described here.
I have an unusual family background including growing up poor and being estranged from both parents, and people get weird if I mention that in conversation, so I get what you mean about not relating when people talk about cottages and other rich person stuff or having a supportive family or etc. In my own case, which I recognize is affected by being part of the racial majority, I don't believe it's an attack on me or intentional othering - people are just often unsure how to respond to large differences in background like that and can find it hard to relate to me just as I find it hard to relate to them. I also don't experience anything close to "emotional safety" or "mutual understanding" or "85% deep" (not sure if I'm interpreting that one correctly though) with anyone in any workplace and I don't think this is a typical experience for most people, although this may be a neurodivergence thing and I'm too oblivious to even see what I'm missing. Again though I do understand that the race factor is affecting things for you in ways I'm not aware of, and I'm not intending to dismiss your experience by trying to relate to it. Perhaps your coworker is also trying to relate, in her own clumsy way, and not realizing that her attempts are falling flat with you (and it sounds like the same is true when you talk about your own family in return) because your lives are so very different. I don't have a solution for that one as I've just accepted that I won't relate to people in that area.
If you were one of my coworkers, I would appreciate gentle but clear pushback on specific things in the moment like "I hate when people call my skills magic - I put a lot of effort into learning them" or "I don't want to come to yoga, I've never liked it". Or if it's more small talk then an invite "I've never liked yoga, what do you like about it? I prefer X for exercise". Or if repeatedly asked "please stop asking. I am not interested". If you want to directly educate/talk about the race issues, you could inform them that e.g. "magic" is often used to dismiss the abilities of POC (actually this is news to me so I'm grateful to learn that now so I can be careful to avoid that wording) or "People always assume that I'm into yoga because of how I look/my race, but I actually dislike it" if that is clearly what's going on, and not just a yoga-enthusiast making small talk or trying to rope in all her coworkers to join (which I have experienced). Or even just talking directly about microaggressions and pointing them out as they occur. An email immediately after the fact may be a good way to bring it up if you prefer not to talk about it in a group setting or put someone on the spot.
I also agree that your current workplace may just be unusually toxic in ways that are difficult to convey in text. In my personal experience, which I recognize may differ from my coworkers of colour, I haven't observed a noticeable (to me) difference in reaction when people who are white or other races talk about their hobbies at work. It is possible that your workplace is unusually bad in this area, or it is possible that I'm oblivious to the microaggressions that are happening (or probably most likely, both). I would very much appreciate pushback in the latter case, but it's hard to give more tangible suggestions without knowing exactly what "falls utterly flat" looks like and how that differs from the reaction to my own small talk attempts, which I could often describe the same way.
posted by randomnity at 9:00 AM on June 26, 2024 [8 favorites]
I would also add that I think the age difference is likely to be a huge factor here, even if they're only about 10-15 years older than you, and even more so if most of the older people have kids and most of the younger ones don't. The comment about how "people in their 50s" take their leave in reference to a (younger?) staff member seems to highlight that your coworker sees the age gap as a noticeable division even if you don't.
It's hard to separate that from the racial aspect when all of the visible minorities in your workplace are much younger, but as someone who's usually on the younger end in workplaces so far, I've experienced older people being highly dismissive of, and sometimes condescending towards, younger people in the workplace many times. I want to be clear that I am not trying to invalidate your perception that it's a racial issue, but trying to also identify additional factors that may be contributing to the communication breakdown. I also have experienced older people calling technology skills of younger (and also white) people "magic" a few times.
posted by randomnity at 10:17 AM on June 26, 2024
It's hard to separate that from the racial aspect when all of the visible minorities in your workplace are much younger, but as someone who's usually on the younger end in workplaces so far, I've experienced older people being highly dismissive of, and sometimes condescending towards, younger people in the workplace many times. I want to be clear that I am not trying to invalidate your perception that it's a racial issue, but trying to also identify additional factors that may be contributing to the communication breakdown. I also have experienced older people calling technology skills of younger (and also white) people "magic" a few times.
posted by randomnity at 10:17 AM on June 26, 2024
Last week her dismissive comment was that when people in their 50s travel home suddenly, it's because someone in their family is sick (a staff member took a sudden leave, prompting this comment)... and I couldn't even...
I've been thinking about this point since I read the question, and I think it would be useful to have more information on the context to understand what's going on here. The one time I overheard something similar in my workplace, the speaker was pushing back against what they saw as an insinuation that another co-worker was goofing off by taking sudden leave.
Is it possible that your colleague might have been reacting to something similar? If the comment bothered you, it might be worth asking her about it specifically. Intentions are second to impact of course, but you might find that she was coming from a positive place.
Fwiw I have tried talking about hobbies like boating, hiking and playing music. Guess what -- it falls utterly flat, and I can only guess based on 40+ years of surviving Canadian Racism it's because it's too much work to imagine that non-white people living in Canada do such things to an equitable standard as that for White People.
I'm also curious about this comment, e.g. do you mean that they don't recognize your expertise in things like boating and hiking? I can certainly understand how that could be obnoxious. But are their conversations with each other focussed on sharing expertise, or just talking about experiences they've had that they enjoyed?
As others have noted, it might just be that this place is a toxic environment for you, but it's probably worth giving it a little more time to see what is just "the way they do things" vs what is directed at you.
posted by rpfields at 11:28 AM on June 26, 2024
I've been thinking about this point since I read the question, and I think it would be useful to have more information on the context to understand what's going on here. The one time I overheard something similar in my workplace, the speaker was pushing back against what they saw as an insinuation that another co-worker was goofing off by taking sudden leave.
Is it possible that your colleague might have been reacting to something similar? If the comment bothered you, it might be worth asking her about it specifically. Intentions are second to impact of course, but you might find that she was coming from a positive place.
Fwiw I have tried talking about hobbies like boating, hiking and playing music. Guess what -- it falls utterly flat, and I can only guess based on 40+ years of surviving Canadian Racism it's because it's too much work to imagine that non-white people living in Canada do such things to an equitable standard as that for White People.
I'm also curious about this comment, e.g. do you mean that they don't recognize your expertise in things like boating and hiking? I can certainly understand how that could be obnoxious. But are their conversations with each other focussed on sharing expertise, or just talking about experiences they've had that they enjoyed?
As others have noted, it might just be that this place is a toxic environment for you, but it's probably worth giving it a little more time to see what is just "the way they do things" vs what is directed at you.
posted by rpfields at 11:28 AM on June 26, 2024
I've been mulling over this question, and most of my concrete suggestions probably fall into the exhausting category of "You, the woman of color, are going to be doing extra work as well as tiptoeing around the delicate sensibilities of your white colleagues."
With that said, here's where I'm coming from: I'm a white woman in my 50s, working in the United States at a Large Academic Institution (as staff, not faculty or research). A few years ago I was on an internal, volunteer staff committee with the explicit charter of "culture change." The group was 80% women, and 60% white, with a range of ages and backgrounds across the group. We all wanted to be there - we applied for the committee - because we saw there was a problem. However, not all of us were on the same page about the roots of the problem (spoiler alert: systemic racism), or its extent (spoiler alert: soaked in at all levels of the organization), or whether the problem we were trying to solve was replicated inside the committee itself (spoiler alert: it totally was).
At the risk of telling you stuff you already know, here's what I've got.
Based on my experience in that committee, if you can find just one of the white women who can be a co-conspirator with you, that may shift things in the whole group. For example, pick one pattern you want to change. Probably the easiest one to start with is being talked over or ignored. Your co-conspirator's job is to notice when it happens and redirect things. Ideally this would be a peer, but it sounds like your manager might be the only candidate? Maybe your manager could pair you with a different colleague, or put the group on a rotation so everyone gets to work one-on-one with a variety of people?
Also, your manager should absolutely be on top of this, especially if she's also the boss of the woman you've been paired with. Her job is to set you up for success. The group behavior you describe would be toxic even without the racist microaggressions. The new hire is being excluded from small-talk? Ageism, seniority bias, cliques? Not cool, not productive, not going to get everybody doing their best work.
Unfortunately, it can be easier to get things in a majority-white environment to change if you don't frame them as racism, but instead frame them as "exclusionary" or "bullying" or "poor meeting facilitation" or something along those lines. Similarly, when DEI training is imposed from above, it doesn't usually fix anything. But maybe your manager could get the group some democratizing-the-workplace training, or meeting facilitation training, that comes from an anti-racist perspective. I've heard good things about AORTA anti-oppressive facilitation training. I don't think they provide services outside the U.S. but maybe there's a similar organization in Canada.
posted by expialidocious at 12:16 PM on June 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
With that said, here's where I'm coming from: I'm a white woman in my 50s, working in the United States at a Large Academic Institution (as staff, not faculty or research). A few years ago I was on an internal, volunteer staff committee with the explicit charter of "culture change." The group was 80% women, and 60% white, with a range of ages and backgrounds across the group. We all wanted to be there - we applied for the committee - because we saw there was a problem. However, not all of us were on the same page about the roots of the problem (spoiler alert: systemic racism), or its extent (spoiler alert: soaked in at all levels of the organization), or whether the problem we were trying to solve was replicated inside the committee itself (spoiler alert: it totally was).
At the risk of telling you stuff you already know, here's what I've got.
Based on my experience in that committee, if you can find just one of the white women who can be a co-conspirator with you, that may shift things in the whole group. For example, pick one pattern you want to change. Probably the easiest one to start with is being talked over or ignored. Your co-conspirator's job is to notice when it happens and redirect things. Ideally this would be a peer, but it sounds like your manager might be the only candidate? Maybe your manager could pair you with a different colleague, or put the group on a rotation so everyone gets to work one-on-one with a variety of people?
Also, your manager should absolutely be on top of this, especially if she's also the boss of the woman you've been paired with. Her job is to set you up for success. The group behavior you describe would be toxic even without the racist microaggressions. The new hire is being excluded from small-talk? Ageism, seniority bias, cliques? Not cool, not productive, not going to get everybody doing their best work.
Unfortunately, it can be easier to get things in a majority-white environment to change if you don't frame them as racism, but instead frame them as "exclusionary" or "bullying" or "poor meeting facilitation" or something along those lines. Similarly, when DEI training is imposed from above, it doesn't usually fix anything. But maybe your manager could get the group some democratizing-the-workplace training, or meeting facilitation training, that comes from an anti-racist perspective. I've heard good things about AORTA anti-oppressive facilitation training. I don't think they provide services outside the U.S. but maybe there's a similar organization in Canada.
posted by expialidocious at 12:16 PM on June 26, 2024 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Just going to put this out as a reminder: It's a white-majority North American academic environment (where the stakes are highest for those who can establish themselves as the most self-righteous "fixers" of society) -- it's a given that it's going to be toxic for racialized minorities who don't exist to reinforce the upper-class veil white-caste North Americans are accustomed to, much like other work environments that exist here. I have worked in many places, in many industries, etc, here in Canada my whole life. Outside of small pockets of "exceptional" social circumstance, the behavior patterns that white people exhibit in reaction to racialized presence does not change unless childrearing attitudes do, but that's a topic for another thread...
expialidocious, that was some very specific feedback consistent with my experience of navigating this stuff, thank you. So far IME starting over from scratch, it takes the minimum of a decade to establish such allyships due to the privilege-threatening reality of the work... and even then, when *it* gets real, that can still easily be a sunk cost.
I will put more energy into identifying the behaviors I would like to see change. I will put 200% more thought into how to say it so that it lands well. In another couple months, I'll work up the energy to actually say it, and then check back to see if this thread has expired by then.
It will be along the lines of, ignoring behaviors I demonstrate as a non-standard non-Indian/non-South Asian/non-"Indo"Canadian/non-person/whatever-looking person and redirecting conversations repeatedly back to yoga is racist, rude and problematic. Saying, "I know it may look like it, but I'm not interested in yoga" will likely cross the invisible line of the "why" I was hired by a group of older white women who need Indian bodies to defend their westernizing appropriation of indian cultures. I'm pretty sure insisting that I am mixed-race will be the death knell of whatever EDI purpose there was in hiring me, because we all know watered-down half-c*ste mulattos hold much less cultural and social value than the purebred Indians do (Canada's immigrant student program sure has got that potential problem covered though, doesn't it). That's why talking about Canadian hobbies is a turn off -- because then we can't rule out whether I'm race pollution or not (and believe me, there's a solid history of race-polluting Indians here, and it sure as hell wasn't the "South Asians" culture that came and done it). The suggestion that I confirm allyship with my manager is a solid once, since the only way forward is to dance the dance until probation is done, and then bring it up.
Re: my "extreme" views. Point blank it is clearly more important for us to exist here to absorb the lateral violence of EuroSettler culture particularly with respect to attachment relationships far more than it is for us to exist in an equitable state of self-determination as our alcohol-consuming daterape-enabling EuroSettler counterparts do. If race isn't a problem, then why is speaking our own languages and choosing our own partners while not drinking alcohol somehow "magically" more responsible for EuroSettlers' experiences of crappy attachment relationships than narcissistic abuse, incest, pedophilia, and drugging-for-sex are? Yeah yeah, these are never the words spoken but these sure are the subconsciously formulations that are consistently implied.
posted by human ecologist at 10:04 AM on August 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
expialidocious, that was some very specific feedback consistent with my experience of navigating this stuff, thank you. So far IME starting over from scratch, it takes the minimum of a decade to establish such allyships due to the privilege-threatening reality of the work... and even then, when *it* gets real, that can still easily be a sunk cost.
I will put more energy into identifying the behaviors I would like to see change. I will put 200% more thought into how to say it so that it lands well. In another couple months, I'll work up the energy to actually say it, and then check back to see if this thread has expired by then.
It will be along the lines of, ignoring behaviors I demonstrate as a non-standard non-Indian/non-South Asian/non-"Indo"Canadian/non-person/whatever-looking person and redirecting conversations repeatedly back to yoga is racist, rude and problematic. Saying, "I know it may look like it, but I'm not interested in yoga" will likely cross the invisible line of the "why" I was hired by a group of older white women who need Indian bodies to defend their westernizing appropriation of indian cultures. I'm pretty sure insisting that I am mixed-race will be the death knell of whatever EDI purpose there was in hiring me, because we all know watered-down half-c*ste mulattos hold much less cultural and social value than the purebred Indians do (Canada's immigrant student program sure has got that potential problem covered though, doesn't it). That's why talking about Canadian hobbies is a turn off -- because then we can't rule out whether I'm race pollution or not (and believe me, there's a solid history of race-polluting Indians here, and it sure as hell wasn't the "South Asians" culture that came and done it). The suggestion that I confirm allyship with my manager is a solid once, since the only way forward is to dance the dance until probation is done, and then bring it up.
Re: my "extreme" views. Point blank it is clearly more important for us to exist here to absorb the lateral violence of EuroSettler culture particularly with respect to attachment relationships far more than it is for us to exist in an equitable state of self-determination as our alcohol-consuming daterape-enabling EuroSettler counterparts do. If race isn't a problem, then why is speaking our own languages and choosing our own partners while not drinking alcohol somehow "magically" more responsible for EuroSettlers' experiences of crappy attachment relationships than narcissistic abuse, incest, pedophilia, and drugging-for-sex are? Yeah yeah, these are never the words spoken but these sure are the subconsciously formulations that are consistently implied.
posted by human ecologist at 10:04 AM on August 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
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posted by sagc at 12:01 PM on June 24, 2024 [31 favorites]