Reliable stories of fending off assault in USA?
May 31, 2024 10:12 AM Subscribe
Where can I find reliable stories of people successfully fending off assailants in public in the USA, or at least successfully getting them prosecuted afterward? I want to know what the victim said and did in their interactions with the perpetrator(s) as well as with law enforcement. This is not pleasure reading; I'm looking for practical accounts of the most common scenarios so I can learn from them (and gain confidence and optimism from them).
This is not about muggings; that can be resolved just by handing over a wallet. This is about dealing with a person, mentally stable or not, armed or not, that wants to get in a fight with another person.
What I've tried: I've found a lot of unreliable accounts by self-defense kooks, whose advice will get one jailed or killed. I've skimmed The Gift of Fear (de Becker), which had plenty of info on detecting a threatening situation but nothing on what can be done about it. I've tried the Google search "assault site:ask.metafilter.com".
I'm a white cis male age 45, un-athletic. I live in the suburbs of a major city. When implementing solutions based on what I learn, I'll consider self-defense weapons but not a gun. I'm especially interested in how a smartphone (with its camera and ability to signal for help) might fit into a self-defense protocol.
This is not about muggings; that can be resolved just by handing over a wallet. This is about dealing with a person, mentally stable or not, armed or not, that wants to get in a fight with another person.
What I've tried: I've found a lot of unreliable accounts by self-defense kooks, whose advice will get one jailed or killed. I've skimmed The Gift of Fear (de Becker), which had plenty of info on detecting a threatening situation but nothing on what can be done about it. I've tried the Google search "assault site:ask.metafilter.com".
I'm a white cis male age 45, un-athletic. I live in the suburbs of a major city. When implementing solutions based on what I learn, I'll consider self-defense weapons but not a gun. I'm especially interested in how a smartphone (with its camera and ability to signal for help) might fit into a self-defense protocol.
Response by poster: I should clarify that I am looking to avoid theoretical resources. I specifically want to see data (or barring that, anecdata) on things people have tried and what the actual results were.
posted by commander_fancypants at 10:32 AM on May 31
posted by commander_fancypants at 10:32 AM on May 31
Best answer: My first thought was Kelly Herron. That’s probably not the best link, but can give you a jumping off point for her story.
posted by sacrifix at 10:40 AM on May 31 [3 favorites]
posted by sacrifix at 10:40 AM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I mean, it really is just avoiding sketchy scenarios (“the vibe of this street is off; I’m going to cut over a block”) and de-escalation most of the time, not ninja heroics or brandishing weapons at people.
Example: a month or so ago, a guy lunged at me on the sidewalk screaming that it was his sidewalk. I said “oh, oops, sorry, I’ll walk over there instead” in a friendly voice and crossed the street to get the heck away from him.
Most self defense classes will emphasize over and over that even if it reaches the point where you have to hit someone, the goal is only to distract them enough that you can run away.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:03 AM on May 31 [9 favorites]
Example: a month or so ago, a guy lunged at me on the sidewalk screaming that it was his sidewalk. I said “oh, oops, sorry, I’ll walk over there instead” in a friendly voice and crossed the street to get the heck away from him.
Most self defense classes will emphasize over and over that even if it reaches the point where you have to hit someone, the goal is only to distract them enough that you can run away.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:03 AM on May 31 [9 favorites]
Search for "MMA fighter fights off robber" - there are a couple of public accounts and videos. I'm not sure what one can practically learn from these scenarios, but it does happen occasionally.
example:
Polyana Viana
IMO, most fights are too quick for a phone to really help - to pull it out, take some decent shots, all while trying to defend or create distance. Just not super helpful. Maybe helpful if you can get video to help find the perpetrator before they beat you.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:19 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
example:
Polyana Viana
IMO, most fights are too quick for a phone to really help - to pull it out, take some decent shots, all while trying to defend or create distance. Just not super helpful. Maybe helpful if you can get video to help find the perpetrator before they beat you.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:19 AM on May 31 [1 favorite]
Best answer: In late 2022 I was in New York City with my kids and there was a clearly mentally ill man in our subway car who started to become aggressive towards us. Specifically he was saying that my then-10 yr old daughter was "insulating" (insulting?) him and she "needed to stop", and he got up from his seat and began to walk towards us. Just to be clear my daughter had not even spoken, she's a shy kid, she was just standing about 8 feet from where this man had been sitting.
As he walked towards us, yelling, I tried to put myself between my daughter and this guy. In the same instant, another passenger, a young brown dude who was wearing scrubs, came up to us lightning quick, put his hand on the man's shoulder, and said in a sort of stage whisper that contrasted with the man's loud voice, "Bro is that your stop?" and the man turned all his aggression onto Mr. Scrubs instead of my daughter, and started yelling that no, this isn't my stop, quit hassling me, etc. At this point, Mr. Scrubs said in a louder and normal voice, "Oops, hey, I dropped my pen! Help me look for it!" and they both got down on their hands and knees looking for a (n imaginary?) pen.
My kids and I moved quickly back and out into a different car.
To this day I am stunned by how well the diversionary tactics worked. What the actual fuck. I wonder if Mr. Scrubs knew the man and that's why he knew how to de-escalate in such a random way?? Who knows.
posted by MiraK at 11:27 AM on May 31 [41 favorites]
As he walked towards us, yelling, I tried to put myself between my daughter and this guy. In the same instant, another passenger, a young brown dude who was wearing scrubs, came up to us lightning quick, put his hand on the man's shoulder, and said in a sort of stage whisper that contrasted with the man's loud voice, "Bro is that your stop?" and the man turned all his aggression onto Mr. Scrubs instead of my daughter, and started yelling that no, this isn't my stop, quit hassling me, etc. At this point, Mr. Scrubs said in a louder and normal voice, "Oops, hey, I dropped my pen! Help me look for it!" and they both got down on their hands and knees looking for a (n imaginary?) pen.
My kids and I moved quickly back and out into a different car.
To this day I am stunned by how well the diversionary tactics worked. What the actual fuck. I wonder if Mr. Scrubs knew the man and that's why he knew how to de-escalate in such a random way?? Who knows.
posted by MiraK at 11:27 AM on May 31 [41 favorites]
You are looking for "practical accounts" of "dealing with a person" who "wants to get in a fight", so I'm not going to give the silly "just don't be in a bad neighborhood" advice. As you are aware, sometimes fights are unavoidable.
For a bunch of visceral, explicit videos of both real-life assaults and police actions which are analagous to them, you can check out the Active Self Protection Youtube channel.
There are some interesting stories of those that have fended off assaults like this (or intervened on behalf of others like this or this or this) from the "GracieBreakdown" channel.
If you watch a bunch of those videos (real life accounts) you will see a couple things/notice some themes:
1. Sometimes, victims just die/get knocked out, no matter what, usually by getting surprised even if they are prepared, or just bad luck. This is reality, so you have to just accept that you can just randomly die no matter what (be prepared philosophically/spiritually for this contingency). Just a fact of the world.
2. Those that do fend off attacks successfully, are usually prepared and have trained a LOT for the possibility. A little training is not enough, you will see cops (with supposed "training") flail, scream, and be absolutely useless relative to trained (years of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu or the like) individuals. You must train, you must train for years, and you must train in things that actually work, things used by trained fighters to beat other trained fighters (BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay-Thai, Sambo, MMA). Then , you must train for stuff that doesn't apply in a sanctioned match (knives, guns, multiple people), to the verylimited extent that is even possible.
3. Size and physicality matters. Fighting is absolutely exhausting, and is like sprinting and lifting weights at the same time. Although your best probability to fend off physical assault comes with years of practical (Sambo/Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, MMA, Boxing, Wrestling) training, the reality is that it just increases probability, and you have to accept there is no guarantee, especially vs a way bigger opponent. Increasing your physical size and strength, as well as your cardio is probably a good thing/required.
4. Someone wanting to end your life, say, with a knife can do so in seconds, sometimes without you realizing what is even happening. Those that fend off deadly attacks, usually do so with a gun. Even with a gun, there are a million factors that affect the outcome, and a lot of training to not only draw quickly and fire accurately, but to retain posession of your weapon, know when and when not to attempt to draw or shoot, is required. That's not even getting into individual jurisdiction's laws on the matter. I know you say you won't carry a gun, and that's fine, but you must acknowledge that you most likely will not be able to do anything against a significantly bigger opponent or knife-wielding crazy person, no matter their size. I can't find it now but there is a video of a very large man persuing a small individual in a mall, and the knife-wielding man stabs the giant once, in the neck, and within about 5 seconds the man is dead in a pool of his own blood. There are specific trainings done from some people about knives (like from Craig Douglas), and the advice from these experts is grim, and basically say that with a lot of training you have a chance, but you will be cut, multiple times. Even with martial arts training, if it's not about knives specifically, you can do the wrong thing and die. You will revert to your training ("fall to your level of training"), and not think straight under stress.
5. You're probably screwed vs multiple people, unless they are much smaller and you are more well-trained. Conversely, you and a friend can take down a bigger opponent if you train the right techniques together (See GracieBreakdown police training).
Basically: expect literal years of hard training for an actual increase of probability/chance to fend off an attack. Accept there are no guarantees and you can die anyway.
The optimistic/great thing/news is: training is a lot of fun! Great exercise, and you can build community/friendships with your training buddies, who can be the nicest/chillest people sometimes (sometimes not too, but that's everywhere).
Good luck!
posted by hypercomplexsimplicity at 11:59 AM on May 31 [7 favorites]
For a bunch of visceral, explicit videos of both real-life assaults and police actions which are analagous to them, you can check out the Active Self Protection Youtube channel.
There are some interesting stories of those that have fended off assaults like this (or intervened on behalf of others like this or this or this) from the "GracieBreakdown" channel.
If you watch a bunch of those videos (real life accounts) you will see a couple things/notice some themes:
1. Sometimes, victims just die/get knocked out, no matter what, usually by getting surprised even if they are prepared, or just bad luck. This is reality, so you have to just accept that you can just randomly die no matter what (be prepared philosophically/spiritually for this contingency). Just a fact of the world.
2. Those that do fend off attacks successfully, are usually prepared and have trained a LOT for the possibility. A little training is not enough, you will see cops (with supposed "training") flail, scream, and be absolutely useless relative to trained (years of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu or the like) individuals. You must train, you must train for years, and you must train in things that actually work, things used by trained fighters to beat other trained fighters (BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay-Thai, Sambo, MMA). Then , you must train for stuff that doesn't apply in a sanctioned match (knives, guns, multiple people), to the verylimited extent that is even possible.
3. Size and physicality matters. Fighting is absolutely exhausting, and is like sprinting and lifting weights at the same time. Although your best probability to fend off physical assault comes with years of practical (Sambo/Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, MMA, Boxing, Wrestling) training, the reality is that it just increases probability, and you have to accept there is no guarantee, especially vs a way bigger opponent. Increasing your physical size and strength, as well as your cardio is probably a good thing/required.
4. Someone wanting to end your life, say, with a knife can do so in seconds, sometimes without you realizing what is even happening. Those that fend off deadly attacks, usually do so with a gun. Even with a gun, there are a million factors that affect the outcome, and a lot of training to not only draw quickly and fire accurately, but to retain posession of your weapon, know when and when not to attempt to draw or shoot, is required. That's not even getting into individual jurisdiction's laws on the matter. I know you say you won't carry a gun, and that's fine, but you must acknowledge that you most likely will not be able to do anything against a significantly bigger opponent or knife-wielding crazy person, no matter their size. I can't find it now but there is a video of a very large man persuing a small individual in a mall, and the knife-wielding man stabs the giant once, in the neck, and within about 5 seconds the man is dead in a pool of his own blood. There are specific trainings done from some people about knives (like from Craig Douglas), and the advice from these experts is grim, and basically say that with a lot of training you have a chance, but you will be cut, multiple times. Even with martial arts training, if it's not about knives specifically, you can do the wrong thing and die. You will revert to your training ("fall to your level of training"), and not think straight under stress.
5. You're probably screwed vs multiple people, unless they are much smaller and you are more well-trained. Conversely, you and a friend can take down a bigger opponent if you train the right techniques together (See GracieBreakdown police training).
Basically: expect literal years of hard training for an actual increase of probability/chance to fend off an attack. Accept there are no guarantees and you can die anyway.
The optimistic/great thing/news is: training is a lot of fun! Great exercise, and you can build community/friendships with your training buddies, who can be the nicest/chillest people sometimes (sometimes not too, but that's everywhere).
Good luck!
posted by hypercomplexsimplicity at 11:59 AM on May 31 [7 favorites]
Back in my much younger days, the college I attended had the usual free self defense course.
Lesson #1: Situational awareness 101
Lesson #2: Situational awareness 102
Lesson #3+: Actual stuff for when #1 and 2 fail because shit happens.
Generally speaking, you may be able to fend off a poorly trained (relative to your training) or unprepared adversary but it is luck of the draw and the odds are not in your favor. They get to pick the who/what/when/where/how and typically have the element of surprise in their favor. But you will win all of the ones you manage to avoid because you spotted trouble before it spotted you, but none of those ever make it into the news report. And I know you can't avoid every single situation and that is why they had lessons 3, 4, 5....
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 12:43 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
Lesson #1: Situational awareness 101
Lesson #2: Situational awareness 102
Lesson #3+: Actual stuff for when #1 and 2 fail because shit happens.
Generally speaking, you may be able to fend off a poorly trained (relative to your training) or unprepared adversary but it is luck of the draw and the odds are not in your favor. They get to pick the who/what/when/where/how and typically have the element of surprise in their favor. But you will win all of the ones you manage to avoid because you spotted trouble before it spotted you, but none of those ever make it into the news report. And I know you can't avoid every single situation and that is why they had lessons 3, 4, 5....
posted by SegFaultCoreDump at 12:43 PM on May 31 [4 favorites]
I don't know where you would find them documented, since successfully fending them off is so often a "near miss" in law enforcement terms. Most people don't call the cops for "tweaker suddenly freaked out and ran away" or "asshole puffed up and got in my face and then fled when I sneered". And depending where you live, if your local police are part of the national work stoppage you will die of old age waiting for them to come.
I've never really looked into searchable indexes of court cases and police reports, probably someone here will know what's accessible in the US. It will mostly only tell you a story about fatalities and, obliquely, about police violence, and nothing about the actual real world on the street. Successful - in giant air quotes - prosecutions will focus on a very specific segment of society, one that will conveniently reinforce a false narrative about who commits crimes and who the victims are.
I assure you that women, queer people, and minorities can tell you lots about how to do this - we train each other after all. I don't know that you will get the 'proof' you require, because it doesn't exist.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:13 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
I've never really looked into searchable indexes of court cases and police reports, probably someone here will know what's accessible in the US. It will mostly only tell you a story about fatalities and, obliquely, about police violence, and nothing about the actual real world on the street. Successful - in giant air quotes - prosecutions will focus on a very specific segment of society, one that will conveniently reinforce a false narrative about who commits crimes and who the victims are.
I assure you that women, queer people, and minorities can tell you lots about how to do this - we train each other after all. I don't know that you will get the 'proof' you require, because it doesn't exist.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:13 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Best answer: My experience may not be exactly what you're looking for exactly because it is adjacent to mugging (I was carjacked at gunpoint on my front steps) but I did "fend off my assailant in public" through pretty specific means and managed to keep my property in the process.
I was coming home just before 10 pm on a Sunday evening, parked on the street in front of my house, and walked up the steps to my front door. I was looking through the mailbox with my back to the street when I heard a car pull up behind me. I turned around to look at it and had just a moment to comprehend that it felt distinctly out of place before I saw a guy running up the lawn toward me with a gun pointed. I had nowhere to escape to. I had no time to get inside my house. I instantly started yelling NO and STOP and GET BACK but within a couple seconds he had me cornered with his body less than a foot from mine, trying to get the keys out of my hand and rip my crossbody bag off my body, and because of those things, I will say it felt more violent than probably your average mugging.
I had had the experience a few years earlier of hearing a woman scream on the street and believe me when I tell you there is NO sound that is more piercing and spine-chilling. So I had that in the back of my mind when I realized that behind him I could see my neighbors in their houses, plenty of lights were still on, many people hadn't gone to bed yet, and that my chances of drawing attention were good. And so I started to scream, and I mean that I SCREAMED. Absolute top of my lungs, as loud as I could, with absolutely everything I had in me, and I did not stop screaming at any point until it was over, to the point that my throat ached for days afterward. But it worked. The bag he was trying to pull off me ripped all the way down the sides but didn't come off my person, and at that point he gave up and ran back to the car that was waiting in the street. In that same moment more than twenty of my neighbors came running outside, several of them saw the man and car departing and noted their description and license plate.
Police were called but did not arrive for almost 45 minutes, during which time a car and men matching that description exactly had had plenty of opportunity to (successfully) carjack multiple other parties several streets away. To my knowledge they were never caught nor prosecuted.
I am a white cis woman who was 40 years old at the time. I cannot recommend this approach exactly, as it was not exactly a conscious response and it certainly would have been smarter to just hand over the keys. But that thought never entered my brain at any point for whatever reason, so that's my story. Hope it's useful to you somehow.
posted by anderjen at 3:01 PM on May 31 [14 favorites]
I was coming home just before 10 pm on a Sunday evening, parked on the street in front of my house, and walked up the steps to my front door. I was looking through the mailbox with my back to the street when I heard a car pull up behind me. I turned around to look at it and had just a moment to comprehend that it felt distinctly out of place before I saw a guy running up the lawn toward me with a gun pointed. I had nowhere to escape to. I had no time to get inside my house. I instantly started yelling NO and STOP and GET BACK but within a couple seconds he had me cornered with his body less than a foot from mine, trying to get the keys out of my hand and rip my crossbody bag off my body, and because of those things, I will say it felt more violent than probably your average mugging.
I had had the experience a few years earlier of hearing a woman scream on the street and believe me when I tell you there is NO sound that is more piercing and spine-chilling. So I had that in the back of my mind when I realized that behind him I could see my neighbors in their houses, plenty of lights were still on, many people hadn't gone to bed yet, and that my chances of drawing attention were good. And so I started to scream, and I mean that I SCREAMED. Absolute top of my lungs, as loud as I could, with absolutely everything I had in me, and I did not stop screaming at any point until it was over, to the point that my throat ached for days afterward. But it worked. The bag he was trying to pull off me ripped all the way down the sides but didn't come off my person, and at that point he gave up and ran back to the car that was waiting in the street. In that same moment more than twenty of my neighbors came running outside, several of them saw the man and car departing and noted their description and license plate.
Police were called but did not arrive for almost 45 minutes, during which time a car and men matching that description exactly had had plenty of opportunity to (successfully) carjack multiple other parties several streets away. To my knowledge they were never caught nor prosecuted.
I am a white cis woman who was 40 years old at the time. I cannot recommend this approach exactly, as it was not exactly a conscious response and it certainly would have been smarter to just hand over the keys. But that thought never entered my brain at any point for whatever reason, so that's my story. Hope it's useful to you somehow.
posted by anderjen at 3:01 PM on May 31 [14 favorites]
You may want to check out the documentary “The Interruptors” for responses to violence and links to research
posted by childofTethys at 7:03 PM on May 31 [2 favorites]
posted by childofTethys at 7:03 PM on May 31 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Aha, I remembered one!
Elderly Chinese Woman Clobbered Her Attacker On Busy Downtown San Francisco Street
TL:DR -- In 2021, during height of COVID, there were a bunch of unprovoked assaults upon Asians in San Francisco (for whatever reason you can imagine). Except in this case, the attacker, a male in his 30s, was the one ended up going to the hospital when the Asian grandma in her 70s fought back with all her might, and clobbered him with a wooden stick. There was also an exclusive interview of the victim linked.
posted by kschang at 8:07 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Elderly Chinese Woman Clobbered Her Attacker On Busy Downtown San Francisco Street
TL:DR -- In 2021, during height of COVID, there were a bunch of unprovoked assaults upon Asians in San Francisco (for whatever reason you can imagine). Except in this case, the attacker, a male in his 30s, was the one ended up going to the hospital when the Asian grandma in her 70s fought back with all her might, and clobbered him with a wooden stick. There was also an exclusive interview of the victim linked.
posted by kschang at 8:07 PM on May 31 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I used to work as a librarian in a major metropolitan area, so I routinely had opportunities to deal with unstable situations. I would agree that what has mostly worked is creating enough of a distraction or diversion that it brings the temperature down enough to get everyone to a safer place.
One time I prevented a stabbing. A man experiencing some serious delusions had begun threatening another library visitor quietly from a table away and eventually approached him and started threatening him to the other visitor’s utter confusion. At one point I saw him surreptitiously take a knife from his pocket to threaten the guy but he was trying to hide it from view of the rest of the room.
It was at this point that I decided to intervene. I put on my most helpful smile and went over and asked in the most friendly way if there was anything I could help either person find in the library. I went on that it seemed like they might be looking for something and that I’m always at the desk if they needed help. Knife guy went back to his table to mutter and that’s when I called my manager downstairs and quietly informed her that we needed to contact library security as a customer was experiencing delusions and had threatened another customer with a knife.
A lot could have gone wrong there. But I took a calculated risk and it happened to pay off. No one got stabbed that day in the library. I don’t work in public libraries now. I chose to leave for a career where I don’t have to worry as much about assault by a stranger.
posted by donut_princess at 3:32 AM on June 1 [8 favorites]
One time I prevented a stabbing. A man experiencing some serious delusions had begun threatening another library visitor quietly from a table away and eventually approached him and started threatening him to the other visitor’s utter confusion. At one point I saw him surreptitiously take a knife from his pocket to threaten the guy but he was trying to hide it from view of the rest of the room.
It was at this point that I decided to intervene. I put on my most helpful smile and went over and asked in the most friendly way if there was anything I could help either person find in the library. I went on that it seemed like they might be looking for something and that I’m always at the desk if they needed help. Knife guy went back to his table to mutter and that’s when I called my manager downstairs and quietly informed her that we needed to contact library security as a customer was experiencing delusions and had threatened another customer with a knife.
A lot could have gone wrong there. But I took a calculated risk and it happened to pay off. No one got stabbed that day in the library. I don’t work in public libraries now. I chose to leave for a career where I don’t have to worry as much about assault by a stranger.
posted by donut_princess at 3:32 AM on June 1 [8 favorites]
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posted by Eyelash at 10:28 AM on May 31 [4 favorites]