What should a teen know about applying to college these days?
January 17, 2024 9:04 PM Subscribe
Little turtle will be going to college soon even though they do not know what they want to major in and have no real plan - and I don't want to make any costly mistakes. More below the fold.
I will not let little turtle pay out-of-state tuition for a state school. Little turtle thinks they want to live in a city and not a small college town. Other than that, little turtle has a lot to think about. And I don't think little turtle should be paying high tuition when they are this undecided in life but wants a college experience. One thought I had was looking at smaller liberal arts schools in major cities, but given the current trend in higher education, should we be worried about these schools closing? How can you trust that a niche school is not going to go under? Little Turtle's college counselor is suggesting schools that are stupid expensive and is not being all that helpful. So I come to the green to ask what should we know beyond on the obvious on this next journey? (I am not looking for advice about not going to college - I am well aware of that as an option and am strongly encouraging a gap year or an adventure abroad. Plus community college is out as turtle will be graduating high school with something like 30 college credits).
I will not let little turtle pay out-of-state tuition for a state school. Little turtle thinks they want to live in a city and not a small college town. Other than that, little turtle has a lot to think about. And I don't think little turtle should be paying high tuition when they are this undecided in life but wants a college experience. One thought I had was looking at smaller liberal arts schools in major cities, but given the current trend in higher education, should we be worried about these schools closing? How can you trust that a niche school is not going to go under? Little Turtle's college counselor is suggesting schools that are stupid expensive and is not being all that helpful. So I come to the green to ask what should we know beyond on the obvious on this next journey? (I am not looking for advice about not going to college - I am well aware of that as an option and am strongly encouraging a gap year or an adventure abroad. Plus community college is out as turtle will be graduating high school with something like 30 college credits).
A few thoughts related to some of your concerns:
Small liberal arts colleges that have healthy endowments (which not always but generally corresponds with rankings) are not going to close. Amhersts, Vassars, Oberlins, Swarthmores -- none of them are going under any time soon. What is a healthy endowment, you might ask? Well, as one example, Marylhurst in Oregon that closed a few years ago had an endowment of just under 20 million, if memory serves. You can also get data on enrollments -- if it's a tuition-driven school, and their enrollments are in sharp decline, that might signal a precarious future. But honestly, not many colleges are closing. Most of them are chugging along.
Check out the College Confidential forum for parents -- you can get a lot of good information there about how much aid these stupidly expensive schools typically award. It can vary widely.
State school systems often have public SLACs within them (which may or may not be in a city, depending on the state and the system). For example, in New York, the SUNY system has SUNY New Paltz, SUNY Geneseo, and a couple of others that have the enrollment, structure, and vibe of a SLAC. In the Florida state system, New College was famously an excellent public SLAC of that variety until the recent conservative coup perpetrated by DeSantis.
I am not sure why a community college is out given the 30 credit fact -- if a CC is an attractive option out of financial considerations, and if you and your kid were open to it, they could get another 30 credits, for a total of 60 credits, with a year of a community college, then transfer to a 4-year school for the last two years.
posted by virve at 9:48 PM on January 17, 2024 [15 favorites]
Small liberal arts colleges that have healthy endowments (which not always but generally corresponds with rankings) are not going to close. Amhersts, Vassars, Oberlins, Swarthmores -- none of them are going under any time soon. What is a healthy endowment, you might ask? Well, as one example, Marylhurst in Oregon that closed a few years ago had an endowment of just under 20 million, if memory serves. You can also get data on enrollments -- if it's a tuition-driven school, and their enrollments are in sharp decline, that might signal a precarious future. But honestly, not many colleges are closing. Most of them are chugging along.
Check out the College Confidential forum for parents -- you can get a lot of good information there about how much aid these stupidly expensive schools typically award. It can vary widely.
State school systems often have public SLACs within them (which may or may not be in a city, depending on the state and the system). For example, in New York, the SUNY system has SUNY New Paltz, SUNY Geneseo, and a couple of others that have the enrollment, structure, and vibe of a SLAC. In the Florida state system, New College was famously an excellent public SLAC of that variety until the recent conservative coup perpetrated by DeSantis.
I am not sure why a community college is out given the 30 credit fact -- if a CC is an attractive option out of financial considerations, and if you and your kid were open to it, they could get another 30 credits, for a total of 60 credits, with a year of a community college, then transfer to a 4-year school for the last two years.
posted by virve at 9:48 PM on January 17, 2024 [15 favorites]
Personally I think Big State University at Capital City is a great place people who don't know what they want to major in or what they want to do after. I didn't, and a lot of my peers didn't either. But we had lots to see and consider.
It's really hard to match the breadth of options and opportunities there. Certainly no small liberal arts college can, because they just won't have majors or even courses in lots of areas that the big university does. Not to mention more raw diversity of instructors, peers, and activities. Your kid would likely be the only Albanian (or whatever) at a small college, but there's a whole Albanian club at big state U. Same for most any hobby or interest too.
You may get better answers if you give your state, because the situations are rather different when you limit to in-state public schools, and in fact many states do have their flagship state universities in places you don't consider cities. (Disclosure; I have enjoyed studying and working at several of our large state universities, for many years.)
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:52 PM on January 17, 2024 [18 favorites]
It's really hard to match the breadth of options and opportunities there. Certainly no small liberal arts college can, because they just won't have majors or even courses in lots of areas that the big university does. Not to mention more raw diversity of instructors, peers, and activities. Your kid would likely be the only Albanian (or whatever) at a small college, but there's a whole Albanian club at big state U. Same for most any hobby or interest too.
You may get better answers if you give your state, because the situations are rather different when you limit to in-state public schools, and in fact many states do have their flagship state universities in places you don't consider cities. (Disclosure; I have enjoyed studying and working at several of our large state universities, for many years.)
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:52 PM on January 17, 2024 [18 favorites]
If there are more expensive schools that seem promising, you could always call and talk to their Enrollment Services — I am assuming you’re in the US, and the demographic dip in high school graduates makes incoming students valuable for a number of reasons, and while tuition isn’t usually negotiable, support definitely is.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:02 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:02 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
Pick the city and then pick the school? I mean, if you've fallen in love with a certain school or type of school, that's one thing. Otherwise, if you start with something like Chicago or Minneapolis, you've narrowed it down a lot already. There may be a city you would like to live in that would be manageable if you are in college there, but very hard to swing as a young working person. List the schools and identify a couple to look at. It feels different when you visit them. Start with your own current (or nearest) city and see a few colleges even if it is just for practice. When I was looking, some schools seemed good on paper but I had misgivings when I got there. There are others where you walk around and talk to people and it seems to click.
I think you are right not to want to make a huge financial commitment when the academic mission is kind of undefined. On the other hand, even kids who sound very sure about what they are doing end up changing plans during the first year. It is important to approach this with a certain level of optimism and enthusiasm, I think-- admittedly hard to do with the level of financial exposure a four-year college entails.
If there is a college fair near you, try to go to that.
posted by BibiRose at 3:51 AM on January 18, 2024
I think you are right not to want to make a huge financial commitment when the academic mission is kind of undefined. On the other hand, even kids who sound very sure about what they are doing end up changing plans during the first year. It is important to approach this with a certain level of optimism and enthusiasm, I think-- admittedly hard to do with the level of financial exposure a four-year college entails.
If there is a college fair near you, try to go to that.
posted by BibiRose at 3:51 AM on January 18, 2024
I will not let little turtle pay out-of-state tuition for a state school
Why - on principle, or because your state already has excellent public schools in vibrant cities? If it's only on principle or because you think state schools are less worth the money or less prestigious than private schools, then I'd reconsider - some of them offer at least as much as the top private schools, and some of them are world-renowned schools in their own right.
If cost is an issue, definitely investigate financial aid packages (with an emphasis on grants over loans) and scholarship programs - sticker price is usually not actual price in the US, and the counselor should have explained that. There are also international options. Studying in the other anglophone countries can be cheaper, and public university tuition in some countries (like Germany) is free (and often in English) - although most countries don't do the "float around and pick your major after 2 years" thing that US colleges do.
posted by trig at 4:35 AM on January 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
Why - on principle, or because your state already has excellent public schools in vibrant cities? If it's only on principle or because you think state schools are less worth the money or less prestigious than private schools, then I'd reconsider - some of them offer at least as much as the top private schools, and some of them are world-renowned schools in their own right.
If cost is an issue, definitely investigate financial aid packages (with an emphasis on grants over loans) and scholarship programs - sticker price is usually not actual price in the US, and the counselor should have explained that. There are also international options. Studying in the other anglophone countries can be cheaper, and public university tuition in some countries (like Germany) is free (and often in English) - although most countries don't do the "float around and pick your major after 2 years" thing that US colleges do.
posted by trig at 4:35 AM on January 18, 2024 [10 favorites]
There's also the option of taking a "gap year" or more to volunteer, work, or travel before going to college, which can help in figuring out what you want to focus on. It's less common in the US, but much more common in countries where you're supposed to basically pick your major immediately/enroll in specific university programs.
posted by trig at 4:39 AM on January 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by trig at 4:39 AM on January 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
Not knowing what they want to major in and having no real plan is normal.
Depending on your income and assets you should not ignore schools with a high sticker price. Schools have increasingly shifted towards a marketing strategy of very high sticker price + large discounts for most students. Obviously, this doesn't apply if you're in the top income decile or so instead of under $100k. Likewise, it probably won't apply if you're towards the middle of the income distribution but have a lot of assets through an owned business. There's a lot of overlap but private schools will often be better about this than out of state publics. But I'd still recommend looking for net price information for out of state publics instead of just ruling them out.
As far as that stuff goes, you should ignore the sticker price and look for information on net cost of attendance. Most schools will publish this stuff, and many will provide an estimator tool for you. If your family income is under $100K, you'll often see results like "Total cost of attendance -- $85000. Grants and scholarships -- $65000. Expected family contribution -- $15000. Loans -- $2500. Employment -- $2500." Which still hurts, yeah.
How can you trust that a niche school is not going to go under?
Look at endowment per student; I don't have a hard number to suggest.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:09 AM on January 18, 2024
Depending on your income and assets you should not ignore schools with a high sticker price. Schools have increasingly shifted towards a marketing strategy of very high sticker price + large discounts for most students. Obviously, this doesn't apply if you're in the top income decile or so instead of under $100k. Likewise, it probably won't apply if you're towards the middle of the income distribution but have a lot of assets through an owned business. There's a lot of overlap but private schools will often be better about this than out of state publics. But I'd still recommend looking for net price information for out of state publics instead of just ruling them out.
As far as that stuff goes, you should ignore the sticker price and look for information on net cost of attendance. Most schools will publish this stuff, and many will provide an estimator tool for you. If your family income is under $100K, you'll often see results like "Total cost of attendance -- $85000. Grants and scholarships -- $65000. Expected family contribution -- $15000. Loans -- $2500. Employment -- $2500." Which still hurts, yeah.
How can you trust that a niche school is not going to go under?
Look at endowment per student; I don't have a hard number to suggest.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:09 AM on January 18, 2024
My son is a senior in high school and we just went to a FAFSA presentation and it was a lot but it was helpful to get a sense of how it will all be paid for.
The FAFSA application just underwent a huge change and is (allegedly) easier than before. We're going to work on it this weekend so can't say what it's like just yet.
I also learned that our local technical school has free help to go through the FAFSA process, even if your student won't be attending that technical school. Like, just show up on any Thursday and someone there will walk you through things. I'm anticipating a lot of forms and questions so it's nice to know there's in-person help local to me (and hopefully to you too).
posted by Twicketface at 6:04 AM on January 18, 2024
The FAFSA application just underwent a huge change and is (allegedly) easier than before. We're going to work on it this weekend so can't say what it's like just yet.
I also learned that our local technical school has free help to go through the FAFSA process, even if your student won't be attending that technical school. Like, just show up on any Thursday and someone there will walk you through things. I'm anticipating a lot of forms and questions so it's nice to know there's in-person help local to me (and hopefully to you too).
posted by Twicketface at 6:04 AM on January 18, 2024
Best answer: OOS Public Universities
Many state universities provide plenty of money to OOS (out-of-state) students. Usually this will be to students who demonstrate achievement (grades, standardized tests) higher than the school's average students. Some schools publicize this. Here is one example:
3.5 plus 1390 SAT = full tuition (33k out of state) at U of KY (https://www.uky.edu/financialaid/scholarship-incoming-freshmen)
There is still 15k room and board plus other out-of-pocket expenses like travel and books.
30 Credits?
Little may qualify as a 2nd year student on paper and graduate in 3 years or in 4 years with a Master's. Or take that first year to just figure stuff out and still graduate in 4 years.
FINANCIAL AID
Financial Aid based on FAFSA and possibly CSS Profile and possibly a school's own calculations: Figure out what this means for your student based first on your financial situation. Talking to the financial aid folks at a couple different schools, try a big one and a small one and ask when they have time to talk to you, will help you here. Secondly, schools that are harder to get into and that have high endowments often guarantee meeting full financial aid sometimes without loans. An example is Davidson in NC which I believe does not provide any merit aid.
MERIT AID
Merit aid, not based on financial need, some schools give none and some schools give a lot to every student. Each school has available a Common Data Set from a couple years ago - search school name plus common data set. This information includes the number of students who received merit aid but did not qualify for financial aid. A rough calculation here is if 50% of students received merit aid but did not qualify for financial aid and your student is in the top 50% of students, then they may qualify for merit aid.
PRIVATE SCHOOL MERIT AID
Many, many liberal arts schools provide 50% off tuition & room and board for students in the top half of applicant pool. Example, our nearby state university, Pitt, is very well-respected and about 33k room and board in-state and, coincidentally, qualified students applying to nearby (including all of Ohio) liberal arts schools may receive a discount off the 70-80k sticker price to bring it close to 33k (or else all of these local kids would go to the state school - if they can get in).
Community College
Be very, very careful ahead of time about whether a CC degree leads to only needing 2 more years at a 4-year school. Without careful planning, this can lead to 5 or 6 total years. Careful planning can mean that the CC and 4-year school already have an agreement and a path that works; otherwise, arriving at the 4-year school in year 3 to find out that the required sequence of classes will take at least 6 semesters may be a shock.
(This can all be stressful and likely more stressful for your little including any peer situation at school. I sense a defensiveness that will not make this easier and I understand. It is hard to be in this steep part of the learning curve and I hope it gets better as someone who is almost through the process for the second and thankfully last time!)
posted by RoadScholar at 7:14 AM on January 18, 2024 [5 favorites]
Many state universities provide plenty of money to OOS (out-of-state) students. Usually this will be to students who demonstrate achievement (grades, standardized tests) higher than the school's average students. Some schools publicize this. Here is one example:
3.5 plus 1390 SAT = full tuition (33k out of state) at U of KY (https://www.uky.edu/financialaid/scholarship-incoming-freshmen)
There is still 15k room and board plus other out-of-pocket expenses like travel and books.
30 Credits?
Little may qualify as a 2nd year student on paper and graduate in 3 years or in 4 years with a Master's. Or take that first year to just figure stuff out and still graduate in 4 years.
FINANCIAL AID
Financial Aid based on FAFSA and possibly CSS Profile and possibly a school's own calculations: Figure out what this means for your student based first on your financial situation. Talking to the financial aid folks at a couple different schools, try a big one and a small one and ask when they have time to talk to you, will help you here. Secondly, schools that are harder to get into and that have high endowments often guarantee meeting full financial aid sometimes without loans. An example is Davidson in NC which I believe does not provide any merit aid.
MERIT AID
Merit aid, not based on financial need, some schools give none and some schools give a lot to every student. Each school has available a Common Data Set from a couple years ago - search school name plus common data set. This information includes the number of students who received merit aid but did not qualify for financial aid. A rough calculation here is if 50% of students received merit aid but did not qualify for financial aid and your student is in the top 50% of students, then they may qualify for merit aid.
PRIVATE SCHOOL MERIT AID
Many, many liberal arts schools provide 50% off tuition & room and board for students in the top half of applicant pool. Example, our nearby state university, Pitt, is very well-respected and about 33k room and board in-state and, coincidentally, qualified students applying to nearby (including all of Ohio) liberal arts schools may receive a discount off the 70-80k sticker price to bring it close to 33k (or else all of these local kids would go to the state school - if they can get in).
Community College
Be very, very careful ahead of time about whether a CC degree leads to only needing 2 more years at a 4-year school. Without careful planning, this can lead to 5 or 6 total years. Careful planning can mean that the CC and 4-year school already have an agreement and a path that works; otherwise, arriving at the 4-year school in year 3 to find out that the required sequence of classes will take at least 6 semesters may be a shock.
(This can all be stressful and likely more stressful for your little including any peer situation at school. I sense a defensiveness that will not make this easier and I understand. It is hard to be in this steep part of the learning curve and I hope it gets better as someone who is almost through the process for the second and thankfully last time!)
posted by RoadScholar at 7:14 AM on January 18, 2024 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I went to a SLAC for my BA, got my PhD at a flagship state school, and have since held positions at a SLAC, fancy private university, and now a flagship state school. While SLAC's can be preferable in certain instances (some have unusually niche majors absent even from state schools - that's what drove my own decision), I strongly agree with the sentiment expressed above that your flagship state school is by far the best option for the average student who doesn't know what they want to focus on (which is totally normal and fine).
I also agree that even out-of-state tuition at a flagship can often be a relative deal - so if your kid really wants to get out of your home state, I wouldn't close that option off entirely. It's good to keep in mind that state and out-of-state tuition significantly ranges by state - I had a campus visit for a job at a state school that had a substantial out-of-state student population because it was actually cheaper for some students to go there than their own state schools.
If they do take a gap year, I'd recommend something connected to language learning - a cheap option would be WOOFing - working on an organic farm - there are options all over the world, and in exchange for your labor you get free room/board.
posted by coffeecat at 7:14 AM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
I also agree that even out-of-state tuition at a flagship can often be a relative deal - so if your kid really wants to get out of your home state, I wouldn't close that option off entirely. It's good to keep in mind that state and out-of-state tuition significantly ranges by state - I had a campus visit for a job at a state school that had a substantial out-of-state student population because it was actually cheaper for some students to go there than their own state schools.
If they do take a gap year, I'd recommend something connected to language learning - a cheap option would be WOOFing - working on an organic farm - there are options all over the world, and in exchange for your labor you get free room/board.
posted by coffeecat at 7:14 AM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
Nthing everything that's been said above about financial aid and it being absolutely fine and normal to not have a plan (and adding that those students who do have a plan often change it).
Just to add one more set of questions to consider as you look at options--how big was Little's high school? did that size feel good to them? will they feel more comfortable in a large institution or a small one? some students feel lost at big schools, while others feel claustrophobic at small ones, and this is very much worth thinking about.
posted by dizziest at 7:57 AM on January 18, 2024
Just to add one more set of questions to consider as you look at options--how big was Little's high school? did that size feel good to them? will they feel more comfortable in a large institution or a small one? some students feel lost at big schools, while others feel claustrophobic at small ones, and this is very much worth thinking about.
posted by dizziest at 7:57 AM on January 18, 2024
A few more thoughts about state schools:
1. You can see if there are reciprocity agreements with nearby states or regions where you can qualify for in-state (or less-than-out-of-state) tuition.
2. Transferring between state institutions within a state can be much easier than other transfers. Within my relatively small state, the 3 state higher ed groupings (community college, 4-year, grad-granting) have extremely well-definite articulation agreements to make sure as many courses transfer in a comprehensible way as possible. Whether it works quite that way in other states will require research, but, if you want to try community college—> 4 year school, it might help to plan to do that in the same state system.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:46 AM on January 18, 2024
1. You can see if there are reciprocity agreements with nearby states or regions where you can qualify for in-state (or less-than-out-of-state) tuition.
2. Transferring between state institutions within a state can be much easier than other transfers. Within my relatively small state, the 3 state higher ed groupings (community college, 4-year, grad-granting) have extremely well-definite articulation agreements to make sure as many courses transfer in a comprehensible way as possible. Whether it works quite that way in other states will require research, but, if you want to try community college—> 4 year school, it might help to plan to do that in the same state system.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:46 AM on January 18, 2024
Best answer: If Little Turtle is really set on a specific OOS city, it might be worth sending them there for a year to establish residency before returning to school. It would serve the purpose of a gap year though they should work as well, which might help provide insight into what they want to do.
I also suggest everyone get a business minor. At the very least you'll learn basic accounting, some Excel skills, communications, usually the basics of Operations and IT, project management, and some places even have some cool options like supply chain, logistics, manufacturing. Whatever you major in, you'll walk out with enough skills to get an entry level Operations job - AR/AP clerk, logistics analyst, not necessarily exciting but it'll get you salary and benefits probably - if you need more time to consider your passions and/or break into your desired field. And even my artist friends spend a chunk of their time on their books, invoicing, etc.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:23 AM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
I also suggest everyone get a business minor. At the very least you'll learn basic accounting, some Excel skills, communications, usually the basics of Operations and IT, project management, and some places even have some cool options like supply chain, logistics, manufacturing. Whatever you major in, you'll walk out with enough skills to get an entry level Operations job - AR/AP clerk, logistics analyst, not necessarily exciting but it'll get you salary and benefits probably - if you need more time to consider your passions and/or break into your desired field. And even my artist friends spend a chunk of their time on their books, invoicing, etc.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:23 AM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
From my son applying to colleges last year (now a Freshman), who did know what he wanted to major in:
• It seems most colleges are on a on CommonApp for a common application for colleges. This makes it really easy to apply to many colleges without having to repeat things. Although, every college will charge their own application fee.
• Apply to not only top choice schools, but others that they'd be OK with. My son didn't get into his four top choices, but did end up a school he is happy at. If he hadn't applied to other than his top choices, not getting into any school wouldn't have been good.
• I also don't understand your unwillingness to pay out-of-state tuition for an out of state state school. Some of the best colleges in the US are state schools. And out-of-state tuition may still be less than any private college. For example, Purdue (a state school) has a very reasonable out-of-state tuition of about $42k.
• My son got an unexpected merit scholarship for a small Midwest college that reduced tuition to make it reasonably affordable.
• If you're in the West US, there is the Western Undergraduate Exchange (WUE), where many state schools have a reduced or even in-state tution costs if you live in any of the western states. There are other programs for other US reagions.
posted by ShooBoo at 9:25 AM on January 18, 2024
• It seems most colleges are on a on CommonApp for a common application for colleges. This makes it really easy to apply to many colleges without having to repeat things. Although, every college will charge their own application fee.
• Apply to not only top choice schools, but others that they'd be OK with. My son didn't get into his four top choices, but did end up a school he is happy at. If he hadn't applied to other than his top choices, not getting into any school wouldn't have been good.
• I also don't understand your unwillingness to pay out-of-state tuition for an out of state state school. Some of the best colleges in the US are state schools. And out-of-state tuition may still be less than any private college. For example, Purdue (a state school) has a very reasonable out-of-state tuition of about $42k.
• My son got an unexpected merit scholarship for a small Midwest college that reduced tuition to make it reasonably affordable.
• If you're in the West US, there is the Western Undergraduate Exchange (WUE), where many state schools have a reduced or even in-state tution costs if you live in any of the western states. There are other programs for other US reagions.
posted by ShooBoo at 9:25 AM on January 18, 2024
Best answer: And also, consider non-US schools. My son applied (and was accepted) to a Canadian school. Even with the international student tuition rate, It would have been the most affordable of the colleges he applied to (even lower than our local state school).
Interestingly, a few UK universities recruited at his high school.
posted by ShooBoo at 9:39 AM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
Interestingly, a few UK universities recruited at his high school.
posted by ShooBoo at 9:39 AM on January 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
If Little Turtle is really set on a specific OOS city, it might be worth sending them there for a year to establish residency before returning to school.
You would want to look --VERY-- carefully about their laws surrounding residency for the purpose of in state tuition. The tl;dr is that state governments did not just fall off a turnip truck and there are often many checks in place to try to ensure that in-state tuition goes to families who've actually been paying state taxes.
And out-of-state tuition may still be less than any private college. For example, Purdue (a state school) has a very reasonable out-of-state tuition of about $42k.
Very few private schools would actually charge a middle-class family $42k. Again, the published number you see for tuition is mostly bullshit like medical prices are. I don't have numbers in front of me but out of state public schools are less generous than private.
I agree that flat ruling them out isn't super-smart, but I wouldn't be surprised for OOS public to end up costing more than private, all else equal.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:43 AM on January 18, 2024 [5 favorites]
You would want to look --VERY-- carefully about their laws surrounding residency for the purpose of in state tuition. The tl;dr is that state governments did not just fall off a turnip truck and there are often many checks in place to try to ensure that in-state tuition goes to families who've actually been paying state taxes.
And out-of-state tuition may still be less than any private college. For example, Purdue (a state school) has a very reasonable out-of-state tuition of about $42k.
Very few private schools would actually charge a middle-class family $42k. Again, the published number you see for tuition is mostly bullshit like medical prices are. I don't have numbers in front of me but out of state public schools are less generous than private.
I agree that flat ruling them out isn't super-smart, but I wouldn't be surprised for OOS public to end up costing more than private, all else equal.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:43 AM on January 18, 2024 [5 favorites]
A parent from my kid's HS recently posted in a group about her kid's experiences applying for colleges and one of my big takeaways was that kids should start early, and make sure they are following up with all the specific school's extra requirements outside what the common application asks for. She said it was easy to miss when there were extra things and it would sometimes just appear as "not complete" and you'd have to investigate a little bit. Also that there were several areas that looked like they would be quick to complete, but turned out to have branching logic questions that could, for example, create a request for a brand new essay your kid has to complete based on how they answered a specific question. So, just leave time to be methodical about the process.
My spouse works at a "stupidly expensive" private university in their art department, which is generously endowded. They typically have more money than they can give away in a year based on who requests and takes scholarships. Which is to say, definitely explore financial aid options in any places that your kid ends up feeling super excited about, even if they seem out of reach due to money.
posted by LKWorking at 10:16 AM on January 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
My spouse works at a "stupidly expensive" private university in their art department, which is generously endowded. They typically have more money than they can give away in a year based on who requests and takes scholarships. Which is to say, definitely explore financial aid options in any places that your kid ends up feeling super excited about, even if they seem out of reach due to money.
posted by LKWorking at 10:16 AM on January 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
If Little Turtle is really set on a specific OOS city, it might be worth sending them there for a year to establish residency before returning to school.
My cousin found that even after living in a city for 3 years, she was not considered an in-state resident for tuition purposes. You will want to look really closely at the specific state university involved.
posted by fies at 10:44 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
My cousin found that even after living in a city for 3 years, she was not considered an in-state resident for tuition purposes. You will want to look really closely at the specific state university involved.
posted by fies at 10:44 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You've gotten a ton of good advice here. I work in higher ed and also have a HS senior waiting to hear application results so I will just reinforce a few things:
- Apply where they want to apply. Period. Many, many, many schools have application fee waivers available if that's a barrier. Don't worry about the cost of schools during the application period. But, that's said....
- Do some research on schools that meet 100% of demonstrated financial need. Many many schools are committed to students graduating without debt, particularly for 1st gen students or families that make under $100K a year. (I wonder if the councilor is recommending 'stupid expensive' schools because they're also schools known for being generous with aid)
- There is A LOT of aid out there. So called "merit" scholarships (which are actually just tuition discounts) are pretty much standard. The list price is not the actual price.
- Apply early. Aim to have your applications finished by December 15. Early decision is probably not to you (you're obligated to enroll) but applying for "early action" will put you ahead of the bulk of the application pool in terms of aid consideration.
- There is a lot of work right now being done in higher ed specifically to support students who are undeclared (ie: have not decided on a major). Increasingly, schools will have special programs for students who are undeclared. These go by different names, but look for terms like "open curriculum" or programs called things like "Explore Program".
Overall, schools are keenly aware of the conversation right now around student debt, endowments, and the overall cost of higher ed. While things are not perfect they are improving. The most important message I can give you is to apply to a lot of schools (aim for about 10) and not to worry about the cost in choosing where to apply. An application is not a commitment. Its a chance for the school to make you an aid offer. If your student is motivated to put together a strong application package (good essays, does visits, perhaps personal interviews) its very likely you'll pay very little out of pocket once all is said and done.
posted by anastasiav at 10:47 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
- Apply where they want to apply. Period. Many, many, many schools have application fee waivers available if that's a barrier. Don't worry about the cost of schools during the application period. But, that's said....
- Do some research on schools that meet 100% of demonstrated financial need. Many many schools are committed to students graduating without debt, particularly for 1st gen students or families that make under $100K a year. (I wonder if the councilor is recommending 'stupid expensive' schools because they're also schools known for being generous with aid)
- There is A LOT of aid out there. So called "merit" scholarships (which are actually just tuition discounts) are pretty much standard. The list price is not the actual price.
- Apply early. Aim to have your applications finished by December 15. Early decision is probably not to you (you're obligated to enroll) but applying for "early action" will put you ahead of the bulk of the application pool in terms of aid consideration.
- There is a lot of work right now being done in higher ed specifically to support students who are undeclared (ie: have not decided on a major). Increasingly, schools will have special programs for students who are undeclared. These go by different names, but look for terms like "open curriculum" or programs called things like "Explore Program".
Overall, schools are keenly aware of the conversation right now around student debt, endowments, and the overall cost of higher ed. While things are not perfect they are improving. The most important message I can give you is to apply to a lot of schools (aim for about 10) and not to worry about the cost in choosing where to apply. An application is not a commitment. Its a chance for the school to make you an aid offer. If your student is motivated to put together a strong application package (good essays, does visits, perhaps personal interviews) its very likely you'll pay very little out of pocket once all is said and done.
posted by anastasiav at 10:47 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
Does she make friends easily? In SLACs, where everybody lives on campus, there is more of a community and a general excitement to meet each other.
In flagship state universities, especially commuter schools in large cities, out-of-towners can get lost in the crowd and end up with a rather isolating experience.
It can help to enroll in a 'school within a school' program, for example Arts One at UBC, where students stay in the same small group for the full year.
One more option is to go to a small-town school, and take a Junior Year Abroad in a big city.
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:21 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
In flagship state universities, especially commuter schools in large cities, out-of-towners can get lost in the crowd and end up with a rather isolating experience.
It can help to enroll in a 'school within a school' program, for example Arts One at UBC, where students stay in the same small group for the full year.
One more option is to go to a small-town school, and take a Junior Year Abroad in a big city.
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:21 AM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
Smaller liberal arts colleges seem to be more supportive of not knowing your major/exploring academically. What I've seen of state schools, there is more emphasis on declaring and tracking immediately, especially in STEM fields. If your child wants to explore, they may have more luck at the former OR trying to figure things out during a gap year.
Gap year: I have seen some very organized, put-together students who took time off (willingly or not--the pandemic changed a lot of plans) between high school and college and are approaching college with a PLAN. This can be a really useful time to explore things and figure out where you want to focus. But you do need to have something concrete to do, like WOOFing suggested above. Your child could also take a variety of community college courses or MOOCs to help them figure out what they want to pursue academically.
Larger state schools may have communities within the (larger, overwhelming) community. The trick is finding them. For example, UMass Amherst has a Residential Academic Program for first year students where you live and study (one course) with a small cohort. They also have specific affiliation-based housing options, Defined Residential Communities.
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:35 AM on January 18, 2024
Gap year: I have seen some very organized, put-together students who took time off (willingly or not--the pandemic changed a lot of plans) between high school and college and are approaching college with a PLAN. This can be a really useful time to explore things and figure out where you want to focus. But you do need to have something concrete to do, like WOOFing suggested above. Your child could also take a variety of community college courses or MOOCs to help them figure out what they want to pursue academically.
Larger state schools may have communities within the (larger, overwhelming) community. The trick is finding them. For example, UMass Amherst has a Residential Academic Program for first year students where you live and study (one course) with a small cohort. They also have specific affiliation-based housing options, Defined Residential Communities.
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:35 AM on January 18, 2024
I would also recommend having your kiddo apply to the schools they think they might want to go to, as well as ones that are encouraging them to apply after visiting. My second kid did not get into many of their first choice schools. The school they did get into, and the one that gave the best financial aid package was one that courted them. It is one of the schools small liberal arts colleges mentioned in virve's post. They gave them a four year merit scholarship that made the cost lower than their other option. They graduated in May, and have a high paying job, and loved their college experience.
The other thing to consider is a community college that partners with colleges and Universities. In the Boston Area, many expensive colleges and universities offer a lower costs to students coming from a community college. The one I know about first hand is Lesley University, but there are others.
posted by momochan at 12:19 PM on January 18, 2024
The other thing to consider is a community college that partners with colleges and Universities. In the Boston Area, many expensive colleges and universities offer a lower costs to students coming from a community college. The one I know about first hand is Lesley University, but there are others.
posted by momochan at 12:19 PM on January 18, 2024
Also look into whether you would have to pay FULL out of state tuition - for instance, a lot of New England public colleges offer a tuition break to students from other New England states, so e.g. the cost for a Mainer to attend one of the UMasses is ~ halfway between the in-state and out-of-state rates.
posted by mskyle at 1:22 PM on January 18, 2024
posted by mskyle at 1:22 PM on January 18, 2024
Best answer: I have two kids in college who were in a similar position, and honestly they weren't able to have any idea what they wanted because they didn't know enough about themselves or what college would be like to have a clue. And nothing was really going to change that.
I had them each apply to a broad variety of schools, see where they were accepted and how financial aid shook out, and narrow their choices down from there. One kid basically threw a dart to decide between her last two (I also chose four of the six schools she applied to, because she has no idea how to pick).
My thought was that if it didn't work out, they could transfer after the first year with more knowledge of what to look for. Luckily that didn't end up being necessary.
posted by metasarah at 2:41 PM on January 18, 2024
I had them each apply to a broad variety of schools, see where they were accepted and how financial aid shook out, and narrow their choices down from there. One kid basically threw a dart to decide between her last two (I also chose four of the six schools she applied to, because she has no idea how to pick).
My thought was that if it didn't work out, they could transfer after the first year with more knowledge of what to look for. Luckily that didn't end up being necessary.
posted by metasarah at 2:41 PM on January 18, 2024
Response by poster: I probably could have marked just about every answer. Some really helpful takeaways here. Thanks
posted by turtlefu at 8:23 PM on January 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by turtlefu at 8:23 PM on January 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
Your family should keep in mind that finding a good financial fit is important. Your teen should be aware of the family's college budget for college. Parent(s) should inform teen about any terms and conditions that apply to continued financial (and in-kind) support for their young adult. For instance, some families expect their young adults not in enrolled in school (and not experiencing a medical issue) to hold a job in order to live at home. Other families are only willing to pay for colleges located in a certain geographic area.
Most financial aid from colleges themselves are for incoming first year students (because they want to look good in the "rankings"). Therefore, do what you can to find the best fit the first time.
Private colleges in particular practice tuition discounting.... students they really want aren't paying "full price." Colleges are required to post a net price calculator. As a family you should explore the net price calculator of different schools.
Also consider that "merit" scholarships often have a GPA component. Would you be able to afford the school if your young adult did not meet the GPA requirement? In addition, only colleges that "guarantee to meet full financial need" will have the resources to make up the shortfall if parental income drops significantly.
I would suggest have your teen start by visiting different local schools of different "types." (Big vs small, rural vs urban, major research university vs liberal arts college etc.).
I would point out that everyday spending can be significantly more expensive for students attending schools in/near urban areas. In generalities of generalities the more socialization that happens off campus, the more expensive it will be. In comparison, colleges in rural areas will have more low cost/ free things to do on campus because there are limited outside options.
A liberal arts college vs a research university is going to feel very different to an undecided student. Students who don't know where their career trajectory is going yet, might feel less pressure to know what they want to do at a "typical" liberal arts college vs their counterparts at a "typical" research university (especially as freshmen). That is not to say students don't (or can't) change their mind at either type of school.
Other things to consider are comparing the first to second year retention rate among peer institutions. Lower retention rates compared to peer institutions may be a sign of general student unhappiness (above and beyond typical personal, academic, and financial challenges). If a school has a 75% first to second year retention rate ... for every 4 students your teen meets freshman year, 1 student won't return for sophomore year.
Look into the Book/Website for "Colleges that Change Lives."
posted by oceano at 10:31 PM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
Most financial aid from colleges themselves are for incoming first year students (because they want to look good in the "rankings"). Therefore, do what you can to find the best fit the first time.
Private colleges in particular practice tuition discounting.... students they really want aren't paying "full price." Colleges are required to post a net price calculator. As a family you should explore the net price calculator of different schools.
Also consider that "merit" scholarships often have a GPA component. Would you be able to afford the school if your young adult did not meet the GPA requirement? In addition, only colleges that "guarantee to meet full financial need" will have the resources to make up the shortfall if parental income drops significantly.
I would suggest have your teen start by visiting different local schools of different "types." (Big vs small, rural vs urban, major research university vs liberal arts college etc.).
I would point out that everyday spending can be significantly more expensive for students attending schools in/near urban areas. In generalities of generalities the more socialization that happens off campus, the more expensive it will be. In comparison, colleges in rural areas will have more low cost/ free things to do on campus because there are limited outside options.
A liberal arts college vs a research university is going to feel very different to an undecided student. Students who don't know where their career trajectory is going yet, might feel less pressure to know what they want to do at a "typical" liberal arts college vs their counterparts at a "typical" research university (especially as freshmen). That is not to say students don't (or can't) change their mind at either type of school.
Other things to consider are comparing the first to second year retention rate among peer institutions. Lower retention rates compared to peer institutions may be a sign of general student unhappiness (above and beyond typical personal, academic, and financial challenges). If a school has a 75% first to second year retention rate ... for every 4 students your teen meets freshman year, 1 student won't return for sophomore year.
Look into the Book/Website for "Colleges that Change Lives."
posted by oceano at 10:31 PM on January 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
By the way, if you think your kid might end up needing loans, be sure to research the different types that exist. For example, I think there are a lot of reasons to prefer federal over private loans, and I think there are certain occupations where working at them can get (part of?) some loans forgiven - but as you can tell I don't know the specifics.
Basically financial aid is really important to research, and student loans are different than regular loans in pretty problematic ways so you definitely want to understand what you're signing up for and what the options are.
posted by trig at 4:39 AM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
Basically financial aid is really important to research, and student loans are different than regular loans in pretty problematic ways so you definitely want to understand what you're signing up for and what the options are.
posted by trig at 4:39 AM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
In terms of costs, at lot of private colleges pitch their financial aid packages so that the net cost is about the same as the sticker price of in-state public college in your state and/or neighboring states. Note that this is private colleges outside the top tier and for students towards the top of their applicant pool.
And also really make sure your teen understands that they cannot go to a college that you cannot afford, and that you won't truly know what's affordable until financial aid offers come in.
posted by plonkee at 6:23 AM on January 19, 2024
And also really make sure your teen understands that they cannot go to a college that you cannot afford, and that you won't truly know what's affordable until financial aid offers come in.
posted by plonkee at 6:23 AM on January 19, 2024
Avoid taking out student loan debt, if at all possible. If you can't avoid taking out student loans, then take out the smallest amount possible--ideally, federal loans with a decent interest rate. Also, avoid private loans like the plague!
I wish that someone had told me this in high school.
posted by carnival_night_zone at 12:55 PM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
I wish that someone had told me this in high school.
posted by carnival_night_zone at 12:55 PM on January 19, 2024 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by hovey at 9:45 PM on January 17, 2024 [15 favorites]