Maintain relationship with aunt who I adore but is politically adrift?
December 10, 2023 10:30 PM Subscribe
I have an aunt, who I haven't seen in years, that I've reconnected with recently. I haven't been close since I was a kid, and for reasons of family madness, hadn't spoken in a few years. Not out of any issue with her, just family stuff. She's been amazingly supportive and a gift in navigating other complex family relationships.
AAAAND she's completely politically different than me of the conspiracy theories sorts, a little bit too into it, and just keeps bringing up topics I have no interest in debating. How do I foster this relationship and delicately walk around these topics?
She has developed pro-trump, anti-vax, "covid was made in a lab but its also not that bad but also the shutdown wasn't necessary and was a government false flag" beliefs. Very conspiratorial, but the off the shelf, someone else is saying it conspiracy. To be honest, I was a bit surprised. But eh. I don't really want to argue these points with her, I don't want to agree with her, I don't see any point to trying to have this fight, or to try and convince her otherwise. She's just going to believe what she believes.
So far I've done the - "that's interesting, I'll have to read up on that." But that's only taking me so far. Unfortunately the topic comes up in weird ways; we'll be talking about something casually health related and she'll warn me about getting vaccinated, like flu or pneumonia. Also text messages of tweets of super conspiratorial anticovid screeds.
I cherish this relationship, and I do have some difficulty as I think I have a bit of the 'tism and want to correct on a factual basis. When younger, these fights were my jam. Now, I just don't care and have better things to do (literally, just exhausted and have too many demands right now). I would rather just appreciate her as a person.
One thing that may or may not be relevant - I have noticed that she isn't very discriminating with the information she takes in and repeats. I've noticed a few times I'll tell her something (just an opinion on a topic we were speaking about) and she will later repeat back to me almost exactly what I said as if it was her idea. I also have heard her say the exact words my mother has as if it was her own opinion. An example is my mother does not like my brother-in-law, and has some very specific criticisms. My aunt repeats those criticisms even though she's never spent enough time with him to have formed those opinions.
It seems like its important to how she got to those beliefs and therefore maybe useful in how I approach it. But maybe not.
She has developed pro-trump, anti-vax, "covid was made in a lab but its also not that bad but also the shutdown wasn't necessary and was a government false flag" beliefs. Very conspiratorial, but the off the shelf, someone else is saying it conspiracy. To be honest, I was a bit surprised. But eh. I don't really want to argue these points with her, I don't want to agree with her, I don't see any point to trying to have this fight, or to try and convince her otherwise. She's just going to believe what she believes.
So far I've done the - "that's interesting, I'll have to read up on that." But that's only taking me so far. Unfortunately the topic comes up in weird ways; we'll be talking about something casually health related and she'll warn me about getting vaccinated, like flu or pneumonia. Also text messages of tweets of super conspiratorial anticovid screeds.
I cherish this relationship, and I do have some difficulty as I think I have a bit of the 'tism and want to correct on a factual basis. When younger, these fights were my jam. Now, I just don't care and have better things to do (literally, just exhausted and have too many demands right now). I would rather just appreciate her as a person.
One thing that may or may not be relevant - I have noticed that she isn't very discriminating with the information she takes in and repeats. I've noticed a few times I'll tell her something (just an opinion on a topic we were speaking about) and she will later repeat back to me almost exactly what I said as if it was her idea. I also have heard her say the exact words my mother has as if it was her own opinion. An example is my mother does not like my brother-in-law, and has some very specific criticisms. My aunt repeats those criticisms even though she's never spent enough time with him to have formed those opinions.
It seems like its important to how she got to those beliefs and therefore maybe useful in how I approach it. But maybe not.
Response by poster: It's not. This person is actively trying to harm me and other people like me. They don't deserve your companionship. One reason they continue to behave this way is because you let them, by allowing them to still be part of your life. Cut. Her. Off.
I promise you there are tons of lonely older people out there who aren't fascists who would love to be your honorary aunt.
This aunt is feeding me while I sort out some verification issues with foodstamps going into an intensive outpatient program for depression. And she's helping me navigate much more dicey issues with immediate family. Maybe if I wasn't actually dealing with food scarcity I'd be more able to fight that fight. Or this fight. Because I think I disagree anyway but I'm too worn down to know for sure.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:22 AM on December 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
I promise you there are tons of lonely older people out there who aren't fascists who would love to be your honorary aunt.
This aunt is feeding me while I sort out some verification issues with foodstamps going into an intensive outpatient program for depression. And she's helping me navigate much more dicey issues with immediate family. Maybe if I wasn't actually dealing with food scarcity I'd be more able to fight that fight. Or this fight. Because I think I disagree anyway but I'm too worn down to know for sure.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:22 AM on December 11, 2023 [33 favorites]
I have learned the only way to work with someone like this is to make it a point to be a shining example of life offline, off your phone, off the news. Show up and put music on and dance, pull her up onto her feet and make her dance. Break through the embarrassing gap that stops her from living in the now and has made her susceptible to propaganda in the first place. Maybe the extra endorphins will be good for everyone.
posted by parmanparman at 12:29 AM on December 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by parmanparman at 12:29 AM on December 11, 2023 [7 favorites]
Mod note: One removed. If you'd rather not answer the actual question, that's fine, but please just skip the thread in that case.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
How old is she? I tell my old people that it’s rude to discuss politics and people’s bodies in mixed company and I’d like to go back to the old days where these topics were more taboo. This usually grants me a change in topic. Works best at a dinner when other diners will take your side.
posted by shock muppet at 1:05 AM on December 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by shock muppet at 1:05 AM on December 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
Sometimes you have to take the loss in these relationships to make them functional long term. By that I mean, you shouldn’t be proving you’re right and she is wrong to her, you should instead make it clear that her saying certain categories of things upsets you, because you are sensitive and overly particular and kooky. She will think you just need special handling but in reality you are creating clear boundaries for her to understand.
Be like, “auntie, I know you are worried about [conspiracy] but it really upsets me when you talk about it. Can’t we discuss [banal topic] instead?” Or say “You know I disagree with you about that but it makes me so discombobulated when we argue! I’m going to calm down in the other room and read a book/listen to music for a while, okay?” For texts and emails you can be like “sorry auntie, I have trouble keeping my texts and stuff all sorted, so I’m not going to reply to anything that confuses me. Let’s talk about our days at dinner instead of through texts!”
It can feel somewhat demeaning, it’s true. But let me tell you, an adolescence o and young adulthood of huffily leaving the table and walking out of the room whenever my inexplicably conservative Jewish family got started on Israel has reeeeaaaallllly paid its dividends these past months. Radio silence on the matter entirely, despite multiple congenial phone calls and travel plans being made and everything! Yes I’m a sensitive soul who can’t understand why people can’t just get along and oh gosh I’m so flaky sometimes I just never reply to an email at all!! But also my extended family thinks I’m a delight with some funny opinions despite me thinking a lot of them are cruel hypocritical assholes.
As for her restating things from others as though it was her own thoughts, I would try my best to let that go. It sounds like it’s unintentional and it only matters if it hurts you or others who can hear it or not, in which case treat it the same as if she’d said something original.
It does seem like she may be experiencing some cognitive decline. It is absolutely not your responsibility to deal with, but if you find it helpful to have a shared topic of discussion with her, you could encourage her to try some new experiences with you. Stuff like a show you watch together, music you listen to, places you go together, new types of food you try. Even games are great for this; does she play any card games she could teach you, or maybe something like mahjong? Anything to get her thinking in new ways and interacting with new things and people. It’s a lot easier to pivot a conversation from antivax bullshit if you’ve got a mutual hobby to explore.
posted by Mizu at 1:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Be like, “auntie, I know you are worried about [conspiracy] but it really upsets me when you talk about it. Can’t we discuss [banal topic] instead?” Or say “You know I disagree with you about that but it makes me so discombobulated when we argue! I’m going to calm down in the other room and read a book/listen to music for a while, okay?” For texts and emails you can be like “sorry auntie, I have trouble keeping my texts and stuff all sorted, so I’m not going to reply to anything that confuses me. Let’s talk about our days at dinner instead of through texts!”
It can feel somewhat demeaning, it’s true. But let me tell you, an adolescence o and young adulthood of huffily leaving the table and walking out of the room whenever my inexplicably conservative Jewish family got started on Israel has reeeeaaaallllly paid its dividends these past months. Radio silence on the matter entirely, despite multiple congenial phone calls and travel plans being made and everything! Yes I’m a sensitive soul who can’t understand why people can’t just get along and oh gosh I’m so flaky sometimes I just never reply to an email at all!! But also my extended family thinks I’m a delight with some funny opinions despite me thinking a lot of them are cruel hypocritical assholes.
As for her restating things from others as though it was her own thoughts, I would try my best to let that go. It sounds like it’s unintentional and it only matters if it hurts you or others who can hear it or not, in which case treat it the same as if she’d said something original.
It does seem like she may be experiencing some cognitive decline. It is absolutely not your responsibility to deal with, but if you find it helpful to have a shared topic of discussion with her, you could encourage her to try some new experiences with you. Stuff like a show you watch together, music you listen to, places you go together, new types of food you try. Even games are great for this; does she play any card games she could teach you, or maybe something like mahjong? Anything to get her thinking in new ways and interacting with new things and people. It’s a lot easier to pivot a conversation from antivax bullshit if you’ve got a mutual hobby to explore.
posted by Mizu at 1:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I have noticed that she isn't very discriminating with the information she takes in and repeats.
So, she's probably less committed to this than it seems, but it's stuff coming up on her feed, or in her social group, and she's erroneously repeating it to you *out of concern for your wellbeing*.
Given that she's genuinely helping you with food, and is your support system at the moment, it seems likely that that well-intentioned, supportive frame of mind is what has lead her astray down this very counterproductive rabbit hole.
I don't really want to argue these points with her, I don't want to agree with her, I don't see any point to trying to have this fight
I think the best tactic if you need to push back, is that when you disagree, always state it like *you think that you fundamentally agree*.
Like you're saying "Yes, and...", even when it's actually total disagreement.
Or mention things like they are *fun or fascinating facts*, and not at all things that would contradict her worldview, because you assume that she'd be interested!
Just be a little oblivious and like you assume you fundamentally agree, and you might be getting caught up on some details you disagree on, which you're sure you could agree on given time, but that you're a bit too tired to chat about at the moment.
E.g. If she mentions you not getting vaccinations, nodding and going, oh yeah, not everyone needs vaccinations (although it is *nearly* everyone, but we'll not mention that), but of course, *some* people really do need them, *name a health condition or person*, then, and this is key, sidetrack into rambling about the person or health condition and *Not covid*.
Something about vaccines and side effects? Oh yeah, nod seriously, sometimes vaccines can have side effects *almost as bad* as the disease they are treating, nod, then if you want a slight chink in her defences, again, all you're trying to get to is her thinking it's OK for some people to get vaccinations, so that she doesn't bother *you*, mentioning anyone you know with long covid, and that some people (anyone you know?) with long covid have been getting better *after* they got vaccinated, weird huh? I'm so happy for them! Then sidetrack.
But just opening the idea that it's OK for some people?
If she's the type to repeat what others tell her, if you keep repeating with absolute confidence that oh, most people are fine but *some* people get really sick, right? , and that *some* people really need vaccinations, and it makes some/a lot of people *much better*, she's... Probably likely to agree. You can add a little bit of nuance to the batshit crazy she's been following.
But in general - Anything you don't want to talk about, pick a tenuously related topic that you don't mind talking about.
Trump? "Hmmm, I wish he was kinder. Oh but that reminds me, I heard about *X kind person doing a kind thing who your aunt will appreciate*"
Is there any related topics you know she's interested in that you agree on?
Figure out 5 of them *now*, so that you have go to sidetracks!
Just any 5 things, but for advanced level, if you're stuck in a political discussion, you might need semi-related political opinions you think you'd both agree with, and use those as a sidetrack, because then it's like you're replying to her political views, and then you can sidetrack further away.
So if she's really stuck on Trump, advanced redirect - https://www.axios.com/2023/11/17/arnold-schwarzenegger-trump-biden-interview-2024-president "I saw/read an interview with Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was saying we really need new blood, rather than Trump *OR* Biden - I can agree with that. (if you do!)". Wait a moment to confirm you're in agreement, and you have an effective conversation ender if you can redirect soon enough - eg Speaking of new blood, there's a new product/employee/actor in a TV show... *continue on like this*.
Texts that you don't appreciate?
Oh, I so appreciate you looking out for my well being (because you do and she is, she's making sure you're *fed*!). But I find the messages about x topic a bit stressful at moment (because you do!). Finish with either a happy emoji, or, again, the best tactic - the sidetrack!
A mundane question for her to reply to is best, or something about your day she can reply to.
Any replies about the topic you don't want to talk about, just redirect to a new topic again, and again.
Good luck?
And this is just to make it tolerable to chat to her, but actually, this is more likely to change her viewpoint in the long run than being oppositional, go figure.
And yes, it's OK to put your "oxygen mask" on first. Food, medical treatment, etc etc. Trying to re-educate your aunt, if she's not *directly* harming anyone, is further down the hierarchy of needs.
posted by Elysum at 3:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
So, she's probably less committed to this than it seems, but it's stuff coming up on her feed, or in her social group, and she's erroneously repeating it to you *out of concern for your wellbeing*.
Given that she's genuinely helping you with food, and is your support system at the moment, it seems likely that that well-intentioned, supportive frame of mind is what has lead her astray down this very counterproductive rabbit hole.
I don't really want to argue these points with her, I don't want to agree with her, I don't see any point to trying to have this fight
I think the best tactic if you need to push back, is that when you disagree, always state it like *you think that you fundamentally agree*.
Like you're saying "Yes, and...", even when it's actually total disagreement.
Or mention things like they are *fun or fascinating facts*, and not at all things that would contradict her worldview, because you assume that she'd be interested!
Just be a little oblivious and like you assume you fundamentally agree, and you might be getting caught up on some details you disagree on, which you're sure you could agree on given time, but that you're a bit too tired to chat about at the moment.
E.g. If she mentions you not getting vaccinations, nodding and going, oh yeah, not everyone needs vaccinations (although it is *nearly* everyone, but we'll not mention that), but of course, *some* people really do need them, *name a health condition or person*, then, and this is key, sidetrack into rambling about the person or health condition and *Not covid*.
Something about vaccines and side effects? Oh yeah, nod seriously, sometimes vaccines can have side effects *almost as bad* as the disease they are treating, nod, then if you want a slight chink in her defences, again, all you're trying to get to is her thinking it's OK for some people to get vaccinations, so that she doesn't bother *you*, mentioning anyone you know with long covid, and that some people (anyone you know?) with long covid have been getting better *after* they got vaccinated, weird huh? I'm so happy for them! Then sidetrack.
But just opening the idea that it's OK for some people?
If she's the type to repeat what others tell her, if you keep repeating with absolute confidence that oh, most people are fine but *some* people get really sick, right? , and that *some* people really need vaccinations, and it makes some/a lot of people *much better*, she's... Probably likely to agree. You can add a little bit of nuance to the batshit crazy she's been following.
But in general - Anything you don't want to talk about, pick a tenuously related topic that you don't mind talking about.
Trump? "Hmmm, I wish he was kinder. Oh but that reminds me, I heard about *X kind person doing a kind thing who your aunt will appreciate*"
Is there any related topics you know she's interested in that you agree on?
Figure out 5 of them *now*, so that you have go to sidetracks!
Just any 5 things, but for advanced level, if you're stuck in a political discussion, you might need semi-related political opinions you think you'd both agree with, and use those as a sidetrack, because then it's like you're replying to her political views, and then you can sidetrack further away.
So if she's really stuck on Trump, advanced redirect - https://www.axios.com/2023/11/17/arnold-schwarzenegger-trump-biden-interview-2024-president "I saw/read an interview with Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was saying we really need new blood, rather than Trump *OR* Biden - I can agree with that. (if you do!)". Wait a moment to confirm you're in agreement, and you have an effective conversation ender if you can redirect soon enough - eg Speaking of new blood, there's a new product/employee/actor in a TV show... *continue on like this*.
Texts that you don't appreciate?
Oh, I so appreciate you looking out for my well being (because you do and she is, she's making sure you're *fed*!). But I find the messages about x topic a bit stressful at moment (because you do!). Finish with either a happy emoji, or, again, the best tactic - the sidetrack!
A mundane question for her to reply to is best, or something about your day she can reply to.
Any replies about the topic you don't want to talk about, just redirect to a new topic again, and again.
Good luck?
And this is just to make it tolerable to chat to her, but actually, this is more likely to change her viewpoint in the long run than being oppositional, go figure.
And yes, it's OK to put your "oxygen mask" on first. Food, medical treatment, etc etc. Trying to re-educate your aunt, if she's not *directly* harming anyone, is further down the hierarchy of needs.
posted by Elysum at 3:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I could have written this AskMe.
Fortunately my mother is more politically aligned with me, and she's also going through this herself (my aunt is Mom's only sister, so they are in closer contact and this is becoming A Thing). My aunt tried to start something at Thanksgiving dinner, in fact, mouthing off about "this whole 'woke' thing" - and she even tried asking each person to speak up and say what they thought "woke" meant. My niece and nephew (14 and 12, respectively) looked a little uneasy, so I forcefully changed the subject. I think Mom ran a little interference while the rest of us talked about other stuff, and then....within an hour, she'd forgotten about it.
One-on-one conversations maybe can be handled a bit more gracefully, as others are saying above ("I know you're looking out for me, but it does make me sad when we debate this, so let's not"). For that group setting, I actually used a tactic I'd seen on SEX AND THE CITY of all places (Carrie cut short a line of conversation by simply announcing "The end! New topic!" and starting to talk about something else).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:41 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fortunately my mother is more politically aligned with me, and she's also going through this herself (my aunt is Mom's only sister, so they are in closer contact and this is becoming A Thing). My aunt tried to start something at Thanksgiving dinner, in fact, mouthing off about "this whole 'woke' thing" - and she even tried asking each person to speak up and say what they thought "woke" meant. My niece and nephew (14 and 12, respectively) looked a little uneasy, so I forcefully changed the subject. I think Mom ran a little interference while the rest of us talked about other stuff, and then....within an hour, she'd forgotten about it.
One-on-one conversations maybe can be handled a bit more gracefully, as others are saying above ("I know you're looking out for me, but it does make me sad when we debate this, so let's not"). For that group setting, I actually used a tactic I'd seen on SEX AND THE CITY of all places (Carrie cut short a line of conversation by simply announcing "The end! New topic!" and starting to talk about something else).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:41 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't even want to talk to people I agree with about politics anymore, so I've really gotten into deflecting (tell me about that band you like again).
The chances of you being able to "educate" your aunt into a different point of view are roughly the same as the chances of her doing the same to you. Since you value and want to keep the relationship (and good for you on that!), I think that just trying to stay off of those topics is the way to go. Some of my best memories of conversations with my own aunt are from when she told me stories about her childhood. Those really gave me a window into who she was as a person. And I made my uncle very happy when I asked him to explain his racing form to me. Your aunt has memories, interests, and areas of expertise, and I bet she can really be delightful when she talks about those.
When my aunt got into her own conspiracy theories (don't sign up for the do not call list because then the government will have your phone number), I just tried to move to another topic as quickly as possible. I knew that there was no arguing with her bonkers theories, and I did love her, so I chose to do what I could to make our relationship a positive experience for both of us. She is gone now, I miss her, and I'm really glad I didn't waste our time together trying to convince her of things so I could feel I was in the right.
posted by FencingGal at 6:56 AM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
The chances of you being able to "educate" your aunt into a different point of view are roughly the same as the chances of her doing the same to you. Since you value and want to keep the relationship (and good for you on that!), I think that just trying to stay off of those topics is the way to go. Some of my best memories of conversations with my own aunt are from when she told me stories about her childhood. Those really gave me a window into who she was as a person. And I made my uncle very happy when I asked him to explain his racing form to me. Your aunt has memories, interests, and areas of expertise, and I bet she can really be delightful when she talks about those.
When my aunt got into her own conspiracy theories (don't sign up for the do not call list because then the government will have your phone number), I just tried to move to another topic as quickly as possible. I knew that there was no arguing with her bonkers theories, and I did love her, so I chose to do what I could to make our relationship a positive experience for both of us. She is gone now, I miss her, and I'm really glad I didn't waste our time together trying to convince her of things so I could feel I was in the right.
posted by FencingGal at 6:56 AM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something you might want to try every once and awhile is looking up something together about a conspiracy theory that she brings up. A lot of conspiracy theory buy-in is because of some underlying fear. So if she brought up, say, something about the vaccine, you could say "Oh, that does sound concerning. Why don't we look that up together and see if it's something we really need to worry about?" Then you can steer her toward better information sources in a caring way.
I wouldn't want to do that all the time - you don't want your relationship to revolve around it. But once and awhile, especially when it's something you know you have a good source on, could be a good nudge in the right direction. She's not going to change her mind in front of you, but over time she might shift a bit.
If she challenges your information, just say that you trust the source you are sharing, shrug, and move on. No one wants to feel dumb, so a straight up "You're wrong." isn't helpful. But a "Well, this is where I go to get my news." is about you, not her.
It's rough, and no one thing will work for everyone. Heck, I haven't cracked many of my relatives on much of this stuff either.
posted by eekernohan at 7:30 AM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't want to do that all the time - you don't want your relationship to revolve around it. But once and awhile, especially when it's something you know you have a good source on, could be a good nudge in the right direction. She's not going to change her mind in front of you, but over time she might shift a bit.
If she challenges your information, just say that you trust the source you are sharing, shrug, and move on. No one wants to feel dumb, so a straight up "You're wrong." isn't helpful. But a "Well, this is where I go to get my news." is about you, not her.
It's rough, and no one thing will work for everyone. Heck, I haven't cracked many of my relatives on much of this stuff either.
posted by eekernohan at 7:30 AM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I faced this problem, I flat-out said "We are never going to agree about these things. I love you, but if you keep talking about this, we can no longer be friends."
It's tough language, but it worked. The amount of contact dropped down, though.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:41 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's tough language, but it worked. The amount of contact dropped down, though.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:41 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I kind of stumbled over this the first time I said it, but my practiced response now is, "Oh no, I'm not interested in that game, we'll have to discuss something else."
Over. And over. And over again, accompanied by removing myself from the room if I see it's not going to be the end of that lane of conversation.
It's not actually your job to fix anybody else, especially when you are in a vulnerable situation and need to focus on your own survival. And this technique DOES work, whether it only shuts them up or actually makes them reconsider.
Yes, the word "game" makes the response a bit more inflammatory than topic or subject, but I stand by it. All this is a fun game to them. Making other people mad/uncomfortable/horrified is actually the value they embrace here, they don't even really believe half this shit, but it's so much fun to be angry about made up things that can't be fixed. It's a personality problem, it's not a philosophy. But it puts a sharper point on it to call it what it is, and I have quadrupled down with "your goddamn internet game" when I was more fed up than you can probably safely express, but it also means you can use the shorthand of "nope, not playing" as you leave the room or otherwise shut down your participation.
You can't fix this. You're not obligated to fix this. But if at all possible find a way to quietly register your refusal to give them the dopamine hit they're seeking from you, for your own well-being and theirs.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:24 AM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Over. And over. And over again, accompanied by removing myself from the room if I see it's not going to be the end of that lane of conversation.
It's not actually your job to fix anybody else, especially when you are in a vulnerable situation and need to focus on your own survival. And this technique DOES work, whether it only shuts them up or actually makes them reconsider.
Yes, the word "game" makes the response a bit more inflammatory than topic or subject, but I stand by it. All this is a fun game to them. Making other people mad/uncomfortable/horrified is actually the value they embrace here, they don't even really believe half this shit, but it's so much fun to be angry about made up things that can't be fixed. It's a personality problem, it's not a philosophy. But it puts a sharper point on it to call it what it is, and I have quadrupled down with "your goddamn internet game" when I was more fed up than you can probably safely express, but it also means you can use the shorthand of "nope, not playing" as you leave the room or otherwise shut down your participation.
You can't fix this. You're not obligated to fix this. But if at all possible find a way to quietly register your refusal to give them the dopamine hit they're seeking from you, for your own well-being and theirs.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:24 AM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have posted this answer before when similar questions have been asked - I realize it's a slightly different dynamic but I think my advice would be the same regardless
I have similar issues with my father.
A big part of it is background. My dad grew up in small town Utah, graduated HS but never went to college, and has a six figure job now only by virtue of working his ass off for the last 40 years - he's a blue collar guy through and through who has reached success not through education, but blood, sweat and tears. I enjoy visiting him, but after about three days I get to the point that I just have to leave. He is politically as ignorant as anyone I've ever met - liberals are causing all the problems we have in America, Obama is a muslim, Obama has a plan to stay in office forever and enact martial law, minorities commit voter fraud in droves, minorities systematically abuse welfare... the list goes on and on.
I used to try the logic approach - when he'd say something that obviously wasn't true or real, I'd find evidence (that he would trust) that countered what he was saying. Not once did he say, "Gee son, I'm glad you showed this to me, I probably need to rethink my stance on this." It is always a non-acknowledging change of topic, and I rarely hear that argument again. At first I thought with enough time, I'd be able to counter all his arguments or opinions and never have to hear it again. I was wrong.
The problem is, when someone has spent a majority of their life thinking a certain way and they still live in an environment that condones or even promotes those beliefs, there are limited options on "changing" them. I even hesitate to use that word as I have never wished to "change" my dad - more to inform him. Once I realized that while I disagree with him, nearly everyone he comes in contact with probably agrees and supports him, I realized it was somewhat of a lost cause. At this point, I've gotten to the just-ignore-it strategy and it has kept me sane during visits for the past few years.
I suppose this is a long-winded way of saying, at a certain point there is no concrete way to change someones deep seated personal beliefs. Despite being a relatively smart man, my dad will go to his grave believing those things and I've just had to become okay with that.
posted by _DB_ at 8:56 AM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have similar issues with my father.
A big part of it is background. My dad grew up in small town Utah, graduated HS but never went to college, and has a six figure job now only by virtue of working his ass off for the last 40 years - he's a blue collar guy through and through who has reached success not through education, but blood, sweat and tears. I enjoy visiting him, but after about three days I get to the point that I just have to leave. He is politically as ignorant as anyone I've ever met - liberals are causing all the problems we have in America, Obama is a muslim, Obama has a plan to stay in office forever and enact martial law, minorities commit voter fraud in droves, minorities systematically abuse welfare... the list goes on and on.
I used to try the logic approach - when he'd say something that obviously wasn't true or real, I'd find evidence (that he would trust) that countered what he was saying. Not once did he say, "Gee son, I'm glad you showed this to me, I probably need to rethink my stance on this." It is always a non-acknowledging change of topic, and I rarely hear that argument again. At first I thought with enough time, I'd be able to counter all his arguments or opinions and never have to hear it again. I was wrong.
The problem is, when someone has spent a majority of their life thinking a certain way and they still live in an environment that condones or even promotes those beliefs, there are limited options on "changing" them. I even hesitate to use that word as I have never wished to "change" my dad - more to inform him. Once I realized that while I disagree with him, nearly everyone he comes in contact with probably agrees and supports him, I realized it was somewhat of a lost cause. At this point, I've gotten to the just-ignore-it strategy and it has kept me sane during visits for the past few years.
I suppose this is a long-winded way of saying, at a certain point there is no concrete way to change someones deep seated personal beliefs. Despite being a relatively smart man, my dad will go to his grave believing those things and I've just had to become okay with that.
posted by _DB_ at 8:56 AM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you are solidly in a “putting on your own oxygen mask first” situation. At this time, you do not have the bandwidth to even attempt to engage.
If your aunt isn’t looking for a fight, she will probably be receptive to “look, I’m so stressed out about everything, can we not discuss politics / current events?”
Do you know how your aunt is getting this misinformation? You can’t tell your aunt that she can’t listen to her radio / tv networks of choice in her own home. However, you could ask your aunt if she would consider playing some music sometimes. (Maybe requesting traditional and religious Christmas carols might strike the right tone right now). Similarly, consider tying to find some tv shows that you and your aunt can bond over together. Other times… may I suggest earplugs?
Social media as a source of disinformation isn’t as much of an shared experience. However, you might want to point out that you don’t put too much weight about info shared on Facebook / social media. All Zuk cares about is how long users stay on his site so that he can earn more ad revenue. Moreover point out that Russia is a major source of disinformation. Consider telling your aunt that you are planning on doing a social media detox for the new year (whether or not you actually follow through is up to you). Ask her politely to leave you out of it.
This might be a good time to get to know your aunt better. Get her talking about herself.
posted by oceano at 1:20 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
If your aunt isn’t looking for a fight, she will probably be receptive to “look, I’m so stressed out about everything, can we not discuss politics / current events?”
Do you know how your aunt is getting this misinformation? You can’t tell your aunt that she can’t listen to her radio / tv networks of choice in her own home. However, you could ask your aunt if she would consider playing some music sometimes. (Maybe requesting traditional and religious Christmas carols might strike the right tone right now). Similarly, consider tying to find some tv shows that you and your aunt can bond over together. Other times… may I suggest earplugs?
Social media as a source of disinformation isn’t as much of an shared experience. However, you might want to point out that you don’t put too much weight about info shared on Facebook / social media. All Zuk cares about is how long users stay on his site so that he can earn more ad revenue. Moreover point out that Russia is a major source of disinformation. Consider telling your aunt that you are planning on doing a social media detox for the new year (whether or not you actually follow through is up to you). Ask her politely to leave you out of it.
This might be a good time to get to know your aunt better. Get her talking about herself.
posted by oceano at 1:20 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
We don't always have to fight our families over these issues. Sometimes it's okay to cultivate a different way of interacting with people. I think there's probably an opportunity to practice some different approaches, as people have suggested. I'd advise you to steer away from anything that you suggests you don't have an opinion or want to know more. So if she tells you about conspiracy X, and you know it's not true/believe something else, avoid "that's interesting, I'll have to read up on that" because it's not interesting to you, and you will not be reading more. A few things you can try being direct or re-directing.
"Oh, gosh, let's avoid the serious politics talk, please."
"Wow! That's something! Now, did you see the latest Jeopardy/the beloved neighbor dog/eat that delicious recipe?" The idea here is to redirect with something neutral that you have in common. The weather is always a fine topic.
The text version of this: if you sends you the latest conspiracy theory and you don't want to engage, either ignore or do respond with !!!.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:48 PM on December 11, 2023
"Oh, gosh, let's avoid the serious politics talk, please."
"Wow! That's something! Now, did you see the latest Jeopardy/the beloved neighbor dog/eat that delicious recipe?" The idea here is to redirect with something neutral that you have in common. The weather is always a fine topic.
The text version of this: if you sends you the latest conspiracy theory and you don't want to engage, either ignore or do respond with !!!.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:48 PM on December 11, 2023
My late aunt used to re-tell the same stories, so i'd wade in with a new topic. She'd look startled for a moment, then we'd chat about the something new. It's okay to define and enforce boundaries. Auntie, I know you love new theories, but sometimes they wear me out. Have you seen %new subject, local new article, tv show? Be like Ronald Reagan (this is the only way you should be like that horrid president) There you go again, auntie, with a new theory of wicked conspiracies. and then change the subject. Always be prepared with an idea or question to talk about when you want to change the subject. Ask about her life, about your family history. Maybe she's traveled, or worked, or read a lot. Send her emails with links to real news, good memes, music. Or follow up and say Did you have measles when you were a kid? Chicken pox? I was happy to be vaccinated. Follow up on her stories and push back respectfully and fairly.
People have theories to help themselves understand why the world is the way it is, so try to understand the grain of need in the stories she embraces.
posted by theora55 at 4:25 PM on December 11, 2023
People have theories to help themselves understand why the world is the way it is, so try to understand the grain of need in the stories she embraces.
posted by theora55 at 4:25 PM on December 11, 2023
Seconding the advice to say "I don't want to talk about x" and also heavily favoriting parmanparman's suggestion to engage her in things offline - or at the very least, other things than she's usually taking in.
I know an older woman who is on a steady diet of disaster news and that's her go-to conversation topic. I do not want to talk about (or hear about) disasters, so I repeatedly told her that was not something I wanted to talk about, and changed the subject, and now she is really good about not bringing that stuff into our conversations (with the occasional mention, but she knows to change the subject herself promptly).
She often watches Fox News, which is not something I thought I would be able to dissuade (she likes feeling like she's being a good citizen by staying informed about current events, sigh) ... but it turns out a neighbor said "but you have to watch funny things and fun things, too" and that got her to watch a Christmas-snow-and-train loop that apparently runs on her Dish subscription, so ...
setting your own boundaries, and suggesting lots of diversionary content, could both help.
Good luck!
posted by kristi at 5:32 PM on December 11, 2023
I know an older woman who is on a steady diet of disaster news and that's her go-to conversation topic. I do not want to talk about (or hear about) disasters, so I repeatedly told her that was not something I wanted to talk about, and changed the subject, and now she is really good about not bringing that stuff into our conversations (with the occasional mention, but she knows to change the subject herself promptly).
She often watches Fox News, which is not something I thought I would be able to dissuade (she likes feeling like she's being a good citizen by staying informed about current events, sigh) ... but it turns out a neighbor said "but you have to watch funny things and fun things, too" and that got her to watch a Christmas-snow-and-train loop that apparently runs on her Dish subscription, so ...
setting your own boundaries, and suggesting lots of diversionary content, could both help.
Good luck!
posted by kristi at 5:32 PM on December 11, 2023
It sounds like she loves you and cares about you. So be honest when it applies; "Auntie, you know I have friends that are gay (or what have you) and I love them; it hurts me when people say terrible things about them. Will you please not say them?"
Or on conspiracy theories, it's ok to say "you shouldn't believe everything you hear on TV; they want to scare you so you'll keep watching!" and change the subject. Or even "I trust my doctors, and I think vaccines are a good thing, it makes me feel really bad to hear people on TV say all those mean things about people like my doctor who are just trying to help people stay well." If she has a good relationship with her dr or respects them, you can use that, as in "You know Dr. Smith takes good care of you, I think he'd never give you something that hurt you, and most doctors are like him."
In other words, make it personal. It's now about you, and your feelings, and maybe the feelings of other people that she likes or cares about. Scary conspiracy stories are one thing, actually being mean is on another level, and many people won't feel good about that.
posted by emjaybee at 6:37 PM on December 11, 2023
Or on conspiracy theories, it's ok to say "you shouldn't believe everything you hear on TV; they want to scare you so you'll keep watching!" and change the subject. Or even "I trust my doctors, and I think vaccines are a good thing, it makes me feel really bad to hear people on TV say all those mean things about people like my doctor who are just trying to help people stay well." If she has a good relationship with her dr or respects them, you can use that, as in "You know Dr. Smith takes good care of you, I think he'd never give you something that hurt you, and most doctors are like him."
In other words, make it personal. It's now about you, and your feelings, and maybe the feelings of other people that she likes or cares about. Scary conspiracy stories are one thing, actually being mean is on another level, and many people won't feel good about that.
posted by emjaybee at 6:37 PM on December 11, 2023
I have 3 practical tips and 2 guiding principles to share. The guiding principles help me get into the right frame of mind to put the practical tips into action, so they come first:
GUIDING PRINCIPLES
1. See the whole person. The people we know personally should ideally be viewed as more than just their political beliefs. Avoid putting them in categories labeled "good person" or "bad person". We don't have to like them, we don't have to forgive their harms, we don't have to make nice, we don't have to maintain relationships with them.... but we do owe it to our friends and relatives to do our best to understand them whole, in the fullness of their humanity, in the context of their life history, across the breadth of *all* they say/do, not just the worst. Your aunt is not just a bigot who believes horrible political & politicized ideas. She's also someone whose love for you makes her go to great lengths to help you survive in a harsh world. Both these aspects of her are equally real and it would be wrong to label her as categorically good or bad, and thence to love her or cut her off based on those labels. We should aspire to have complicated feelings about people we know in person. [IMO the only time it makes sense to be categorical about labeling is if they're harming you directly - your immediate safety is always a categorical requirement, no grey areas, and you need to get the fuck away from unsafe people asap. But that isn't the case here.]
2. We have a duty to engage with "our people" when they are hateful/harmful to others (but not when they are unsafe for us, as I said above). We owe this duty not to them, but to their victims and to our community. To me this is the integral to the praxis of restorative justice.
(a) abandoning, isolating, shunning, and excommunicating offenders does not work (doesn't help communities or victims)
(b) part of the justice that is owed to victims is repentance and amends from the offender
(c) offenders can only be led to repentance and amends via committed, loving, and accountable relationships with people whom they have not directly victimized - most of the time, that's relatives and friends.
So in my view, the social contract says I won't cut ties with friends and family just because their views are bigoted. Rather, I remain engaged and challenge their beliefs to the extent that my skills, my energy, and our relationship allows. I work to make our relationship stronger so that I can challenge them more. It's like how white allies have an obligation to stay and speak up to other white people about racism, not just walk out of the room when racist things are said, because white people will only really listen to other white people. Similarly, we have an obligation to speak up to challenge "our people" when they're hateful towards others, because our relationship with them is the only hope that they might change.
[One of the best examples of this principle in action is in Avatar the Last Airbender, in Iroh's commitment to keep loving & mentoring Zuko, even from afar, even after Zuko repeatedly chooses evil. Iroh could have teamed up with the Gaang and taken a stand against Zuko at many points in the show. He does not. He doesn't abandon Zuko no matter how "toxic" Zuko gets, because as his uncle and sole good relationship, that's where Iroh's obligation lies.]
PRACTICAL TIPS
1. Engage with the good. One of the best ways to improve difficult relationships is to choose to actively notice, commend, amplify, and engage with the good in someone. Thank your aunt for her help and ask her to tell you how she managed to talk to XYZ agency and ABC bank on your behalf. Let her tell *that* story instead of what she saw on the news. Compliment her crochet skills. Get her talking about her garden. Ask her to teach you French. Find the topics that work for both of you, and stick to them.
2. Note the bigotry, then move on. If she says something offensive, you don't ignore it or avoid it, instead you call it out gently and briefly, like, "Aw, auntie, don't say that, that's racist/sexist/false/bigoted." And then (this is the crucial bit) *move on* to some other topic of conversation without rancor. Don't try to convince her of your views. Don't argue with her. Just briefly note her bigotry and cheerfully + firmly move on to better topics.
3. Repeat forever. You cannot change your aunt, because she's an adult and you're not the boss of her. If you could change your aunt, then you might look forward to the day she'd finally "get it" and you wouldn't need to follow the above steps anymore. But you can't change her, so you have to repeat, repeat, repeat the above forevermore. A lot of people become resentful and angry about having to repeat so many times. These people are expecting to change other people. Their frustration comes from dashed expectations. But you can do better. Accept that you can't change your aunt. Imagine you're redirecting a toddler away from knives or redirecting a dog away from chocolate... that's the attitude you need to bring towards repetition - affectionate persistent patience, not frustration or annoyance or "ugh when will she get it".
PS: Yes, I know this sounds like it contradicts what I said above about "the only hope for changing offenders lies in our relationship with them". I just think there's a difference between what we TRY to do (the direction of our effort) vs. what we have control over (our sense of entitlement or expectation of certain results). All praxis has to spring from an understanding of this distinction, or else we will burn out and grow bitter very quickly.
posted by MiraK at 9:17 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
GUIDING PRINCIPLES
1. See the whole person. The people we know personally should ideally be viewed as more than just their political beliefs. Avoid putting them in categories labeled "good person" or "bad person". We don't have to like them, we don't have to forgive their harms, we don't have to make nice, we don't have to maintain relationships with them.... but we do owe it to our friends and relatives to do our best to understand them whole, in the fullness of their humanity, in the context of their life history, across the breadth of *all* they say/do, not just the worst. Your aunt is not just a bigot who believes horrible political & politicized ideas. She's also someone whose love for you makes her go to great lengths to help you survive in a harsh world. Both these aspects of her are equally real and it would be wrong to label her as categorically good or bad, and thence to love her or cut her off based on those labels. We should aspire to have complicated feelings about people we know in person. [IMO the only time it makes sense to be categorical about labeling is if they're harming you directly - your immediate safety is always a categorical requirement, no grey areas, and you need to get the fuck away from unsafe people asap. But that isn't the case here.]
2. We have a duty to engage with "our people" when they are hateful/harmful to others (but not when they are unsafe for us, as I said above). We owe this duty not to them, but to their victims and to our community. To me this is the integral to the praxis of restorative justice.
(a) abandoning, isolating, shunning, and excommunicating offenders does not work (doesn't help communities or victims)
(b) part of the justice that is owed to victims is repentance and amends from the offender
(c) offenders can only be led to repentance and amends via committed, loving, and accountable relationships with people whom they have not directly victimized - most of the time, that's relatives and friends.
So in my view, the social contract says I won't cut ties with friends and family just because their views are bigoted. Rather, I remain engaged and challenge their beliefs to the extent that my skills, my energy, and our relationship allows. I work to make our relationship stronger so that I can challenge them more. It's like how white allies have an obligation to stay and speak up to other white people about racism, not just walk out of the room when racist things are said, because white people will only really listen to other white people. Similarly, we have an obligation to speak up to challenge "our people" when they're hateful towards others, because our relationship with them is the only hope that they might change.
[One of the best examples of this principle in action is in Avatar the Last Airbender, in Iroh's commitment to keep loving & mentoring Zuko, even from afar, even after Zuko repeatedly chooses evil. Iroh could have teamed up with the Gaang and taken a stand against Zuko at many points in the show. He does not. He doesn't abandon Zuko no matter how "toxic" Zuko gets, because as his uncle and sole good relationship, that's where Iroh's obligation lies.]
PRACTICAL TIPS
1. Engage with the good. One of the best ways to improve difficult relationships is to choose to actively notice, commend, amplify, and engage with the good in someone. Thank your aunt for her help and ask her to tell you how she managed to talk to XYZ agency and ABC bank on your behalf. Let her tell *that* story instead of what she saw on the news. Compliment her crochet skills. Get her talking about her garden. Ask her to teach you French. Find the topics that work for both of you, and stick to them.
2. Note the bigotry, then move on. If she says something offensive, you don't ignore it or avoid it, instead you call it out gently and briefly, like, "Aw, auntie, don't say that, that's racist/sexist/false/bigoted." And then (this is the crucial bit) *move on* to some other topic of conversation without rancor. Don't try to convince her of your views. Don't argue with her. Just briefly note her bigotry and cheerfully + firmly move on to better topics.
3. Repeat forever. You cannot change your aunt, because she's an adult and you're not the boss of her. If you could change your aunt, then you might look forward to the day she'd finally "get it" and you wouldn't need to follow the above steps anymore. But you can't change her, so you have to repeat, repeat, repeat the above forevermore. A lot of people become resentful and angry about having to repeat so many times. These people are expecting to change other people. Their frustration comes from dashed expectations. But you can do better. Accept that you can't change your aunt. Imagine you're redirecting a toddler away from knives or redirecting a dog away from chocolate... that's the attitude you need to bring towards repetition - affectionate persistent patience, not frustration or annoyance or "ugh when will she get it".
PS: Yes, I know this sounds like it contradicts what I said above about "the only hope for changing offenders lies in our relationship with them". I just think there's a difference between what we TRY to do (the direction of our effort) vs. what we have control over (our sense of entitlement or expectation of certain results). All praxis has to spring from an understanding of this distinction, or else we will burn out and grow bitter very quickly.
posted by MiraK at 9:17 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
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"Whoops sounds like we're getting into xyz again, [change the subject]".
It might help to have some safe subjects to change the topic too. Do you both have hobbies you share that you'd rather talk about?
If she's messaging you some of these items, and ignoring them is difficult, you could try something similar. She sends you conspiracy, you send her back a funny animal video.
Lastly, behind this, it sounds like she's trying to say she loves you and wants you to be safe and healthy. If you connect with that message, would that work better. "Aunty, I know you want me to be safe and healthy, but I'm a traditional kind of person and I'd rather get that advice from my doctor. [Subject change here]."
Good luck, it sounds like she's really important to you.
posted by Braeburn at 12:02 AM on December 11, 2023 [8 favorites]