World of Waahcraft

May 6, 2006 8:14 PM

Advice needed on how to get my husband away from World of Warcraft, and whether I should.

I realize this is far from the worst problem in the world, but it bums me out. My husband is having a great time online with WoW, late every night, sometimes before work in the mornings, and frequently when he gets a chance during the day.

He's a wonderful father; our kids worship him. He does his share of the housework and yardwork. But I am lonely on the nights that I'm not working. I've suggested the occasional "movie night" (we're pretty much stuck at home due to budget and kids), and that's worked a little. I'm sad that he does the date night thing mostly to appease me and is happier with online "friends." I've said all of this, and he reassures me but goes right back to it. He knows what I think, and feels bad, but still likes the game. A lot. He has other interests -- plays sports -- but this is what takes up most of his time.

I don't want to be a shrew (a side issue is that our house is old and needs an infinite amount of work, and cleaning). I considered playing it also, but it really doesn't interest me, and I have little free time as it is.

Has anyone dealt with this situation? Any proven methods? (The look-at-my-new-lingerie approach has not had the effect I'd hoped for.) Or should I just let it go, be glad that he's happy (I am), and appreciate those evenings I get to spend with him?

posted by theredpen to computers & internet (29 comments total)

Can you tell your husband that you're lonely, and ask him to institute a limit on time spent on WoW (I had "Internet allowance" when I was younger)? It's easy to get sucked in to MMORPGs, especially when you have a guild and essentially a social life online.

Maybe 10 or 20 hours a week would be reasonable? Considering spending an hour or two a week playing - I know you don't have much free time, but maybe just a little bit is enough to make it "your" activity instead of "his" activity.
posted by jhscott at 8:23 PM on May 6, 2006

This is always hard. I'm not going to say "go to therapy," because that's what everyone else will say, and it's not bad advice, and I'm not going to google up 20 books on communication and marriage. I assume that you can search AskMe for that stuff, and I will say right now that a ton of really useful information already resides in this site about that particular subject. I will however, tell you what I think as the wife of a gamer and a gamer myself.

For one thing, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I did (to a point) and it was a lot of fun and helped our relationship a lot. However, on the case of WoW, I hate the game and don't want to play it, so I've basically chosen to have him playing a game (with what are admittedly mutual friends) that I won't play, because I find the game to be ridiculously tedious. That is my choice. I don't particularly like it, but I'm not able to spend the amount of time necessary on an MMORPG like WoW being bored out of my mind, so there you have it.

So, for one, if you can or want to, try playing yourself. For two, if you can't or don't like playing, then you guys have got to work out what is going to happen. Personally, if he was playing in the mornings (other than when he had time to kill and nothing else to do) or at inappropriate times (I have no way to know this from what you posted), it would have to be addressed as what I would view as a lack of control over his urge to accomplish stuff in-game.

Now, that urge may come from somewhere really, really normal and understandable -- if the job sucks and he feels like a hamster in a wheel all day, I will give you that participating in a successful raid where your guildbuddies all think you are God Almighty Himself or whatnot can be rewarding. But he has go to understand that this is hard on you and possibly detrimental to your relationship with one another, and he's got to put this game in the proper place in his life --- which is AFTER he spends time with you and the kids, honestly. The big problem with these games is that you can get really wedded to the online obligation -- people expect you to be there. I know. I'm an officer in an online group. But you have to be okay with telling these people that your RL (real life) comes first. Period. If you feel like he's not making this distinction, then there's a problem. He may not see it as such, but there is no reality, only one's perception of reality, and if you perceive a problem, then he's got to accept that and you guys have to work out a solution.

It's hard to say what to do -- I'm a fairly confrontational person, so honestly if we'd had a couple of nice talks that he seemed to politely ignore afterwards, I'd feel totally justified in going apeshit about it. But that's me. Listening to and acting on your concerns is part of his job. If he's not doing it, you are justified in calling him on it in whatever way doing that works within your relationship. If you really feel ignored -- in general or about this in particular -- then you need to say that.

Finally, and I promise after this I will shut up, if your feeling is that he is retreating into the game due to some sort of real-life pressure, then that needs to be addressed. I'm not saying have a knockdowndragout fight about it because that's not necessarily right or fair. I'm saying that you two, as grown up adult human beings, need to sit down and talk about this activity, and what it's costing you in terms of your relationship. You need to be very honest and very clear about why this bothers you and how it makes you feel, as well as any concerns surrounding any RL pressures that are driving the behavior. And he needs to be honest with you in his responses. If you think he's BSing you, call him on it. Don't let him get away with telling you what you want to hear. As at least one other MeFite I know of will tell you, a gaming problem can seriously fuck up a relationship -- and not just because your SO may find an in-game SO, but just for the simple fact that MMORPGs can suck away as much time and energy (if not more) than football or anything else.

Feel free to email me if you like.
posted by Medieval Maven at 8:59 PM on May 6, 2006

You could try scheduling "family time" and stick to it. If every Tuesday and Thursday and Saturday(or whatever) are "family time", then he can tell his online pals and they can plan around him not being there on those days. And he can set aside certain time that is "Dad's Game Time", when he's allowed to game without interruption. And the rest of the time is flexible, for chores if they need doing, or he can game a bit if there's nothing else for him to do.

And when it's "family time", make it _fun_, not chore time. Maybe play a board game with the kids, or something more active and involved than a movie, like doing a craft or going outside to the park and playing, or going for a walk or a bike ride (I don't know how old your kids are, adjust as you see fit). A nice meal, perhaps. And when the kids are tired out and gone to bed, it's you and him time. Try to keep it positive and loving, not a time to complain about things. You want to reinforce the 'being with you' behavior.

Make it clear, too, that 'family time' lasts until X, and no sneaking off to WoW just because "Well, we're done for tonight, right?" Family time isn't always all active. Sometimes it's just being there for each other, just enjoying being together for the sake of being together. X hours a week shouldn't be something he begrudges you. And you shouldn't begrudge him X other hours a week doing something he really enjoys. Just let everyone have their ration and stick to it.

If you need specific chores done around the house, make those separate from family time and game time. He has responsibilities in addition to just being part of the family and it sounds like he's willing to help out when needed; it's just the 'idle' time, when there's no specific need for his services and he's bored, that he prefers to spend gaming.

And finally, I'd suggest you find some hobby of your own that doesn't necessarily involve him. Maybe do something with the kids, or some project of your own; write a story, take up painting, learn a musical instrument or a new language, take up an exercise or maybe join an online club for a topic that interests you. You shouldn't have to be lonely, just because he's off raiding. Find something fun for YOU!
posted by Rubber Soul at 9:33 PM on May 6, 2006

I have struggled with similar feelings with my husband. Five years ago he was playing Everquest so much that I never saw him: before work, after work into the wee hours of the night.

I tried a bunch of things, including requesting that he log his computer hours: I assumed that when he saw how much time he was actually on the game he would see it as being a problem. He didn't. It only gave me hard numbers to go with my feelings of loneliness (80 hours a week on the game on top of working 50 hours a week). He was also very depressed and was using the game as a way to remove himself from the reality of life. To cope with that, I pulled away from him and depended more on my group of friends, whom I saw almost every night. After over a year of this, getting more resentful at him not understanding that this was actually a problem for me and for us, and him not responding to the other things I tried, I finally gave him an ultimatum: The Game Or Me. He chose me, but went through a very difficult grieving process over losing the game. I burned all of his game-related stuff in an emotional cleansing on my own; when he found this out he went through another cycle of grief, admitting to me that he thought he might someday get back on the game.

When I got home from an out-of-town trip two New Years' ago, he told me that he had bought the next version of the game and I went apeshit. I didn't understand why he thought this would be a good choice, and he didn't understand why I was so upset. After a very very long serious conversation where we both heard each other's feelings and concerns (something we weren't able to do five years ago), we agreed upon some ground rules: 1// Game time is limited to a specific number of hours each week, and a log will be kept to make both of us aware of how much time he actually spends on the game. 2// One night is designated date night where neither of us is to be on the computer. Sometimes we go see a movie, sometimes we go out for a fancy dinner, sometimes we have popcorn and play cribbage at home. 3// I have to be able tell him when I need him to not zone out of real life into the game, and he has to be able to tell me when he needs to zone out of real life into the game.

Sometimes I still struggle with it, but he is nowhere near as engaged in this as he was before. Depression was a huge factor in his addiction. I don't know if this will help you at all, but that has been my experience with it.
posted by rhapsodie at 9:39 PM on May 6, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Perhaps a little insight to the other side of things is in order. I'm a gamer. I went through a period a while back when I was spending too much time gaming at the expense of family life. However, I certainly would not characterize this as just prefering games to the missus or what have you.

I was deeply depressed, school and work were killing me and each other. Lots of money problems etc... Games were a convienent and cheap way to chill and escape some very bad times. Certainly better than turning to substance abuse or other common outlets.

Of course the problem was that in trying to escape from the bad things going on in life I was also turning away from the good such as my family. Things eventually turned around. Got a good job and such.

I guess what I am saying is, it takes some pretty heavy real-world issues to make these games seem so appealing. The only way to address the issue of spending too much time gaming is to address what is so horrible in this dudes life.

Ultimatums, nagging and general bitchiness are not going to do anything to make this guys real problems better. Honestly, just count yourself lucky hes escaping into WoW instead of a bottle or a syringe.
posted by Riemann at 10:00 PM on May 6, 2006

Oh, just one more thing to keep in mind. From my point of view, and I believe this is true for a signifigant proportion of the male population, one way to be sure I really will not want to do something (and really not enjoy it while I'm doing it) is to feel like I'm being forced, guilt tripped or compelled to do so.
posted by Riemann at 10:09 PM on May 6, 2006

Not to snipe here, Riemann, but you're presenting a false dilemma here: You either get substance abuse or you get gaming, so be glad you get gaming. How about the option of being a man (or grownup, non-sexist) and taking control of your own life? Ditto for the if-you-ask-me-I-won't-do-it nonsense.

My wife and I have worked out a way to handle my tendency to keep going back, over and over, to the computer to touch the internet. We're building a guest house, and the computer goes there. I think there will be a world of difference between going to the other room to "look something up" and going out of the house to sit alone in a separate building. In other words, I bet I won't want to do it as much.

Sounds like your husband's beyond that point -- he'd probably be happy to sit alone in the separate building -- but it is good to have a physical reminder of the truth that when you've gone to the computer you've absented yourself.
posted by argybarg at 10:18 PM on May 6, 2006

What I was saying was that in my case, and it seems not just in mine, the reason some rather stale old computer games were so compelling was because of depression and real life problems. Exactly the same kind of things that often lead people to substance abuse. In either case, taking a stab at the reasons for the depression is the best way to solve the problem.

Its not an issue round here anymore. And for those times when a bit of gaming seems fun we have taken a different approach. We have a room set up with both computers and some room for toys and such so the family can still interact and hang out even if someone - and I assure you its not always _me_ doing the gaming :) - wants to do so.
posted by Riemann at 10:25 PM on May 6, 2006

I have played these games a lot, including World of Warcraft (WoW). I have seen many people (including myself for a while) spend way too much time in the game.

What you should do is set a hard limit on the amount of hours he can play and have it be reasonable. As reasonable as perhaps how many hours you spend watching TV (if TV is your thing).

I had free reign on playtime while my fiance was on a 6 month work trip, and I played as much as your husband. When she got back, we set a limit of 2x a week (once on sunday nights, and one night during the work week) and that i would play for 5ish hours on those nights. That comes out to 10 hours a week, which isn't too shabby.

WoW, however, is a game where you need to spend an insane amount of hours playing in order to progress. If you only play 10 hours a week your character will not progress. Once you realize that your character will not progress, then the game becomes much less interesting. I quit the game in this exact fashion - just got bored of the game.

All you have to do is get him to commit to a reasonable limit of playtime. Everything is good in moderation, et al. And then you have to keep him true to the limit - don't let him play more than the agreed amount.

I have much experience in this area, feel free to contact me (email in profile).
posted by escher at 10:35 PM on May 6, 2006

Tell him straight. Any man who passes up new lingerie in favour of an online role playing game should be made subject to a severe reality check.
posted by brautigan at 10:57 PM on May 6, 2006

It's an addiction. You cannot approach this in a "me or the game" fashion, as your partner is not choosing the game over you in the first place. All this does is put distance between the two of you, something that cannot be good for a marriage. This ultimatum has been met with failure its fair share of times, as is evident if you've read through the posts at the EQ-widows yahoo group.

You need to get him to grow as a person to a point where he is above the addiction. What do people in rehab do? They exercise, find hobbies, and most importantly, enjoy the company of others. One of the biggest problems with those who are addicted to the game is that they don't spend a lot of time around people in a recreational capacity, so they find the game an easy means of doing that.

This is all very general, though, so if you want to fix this you'll need a concrete plan. All the people I know who have gotten over their MMO addiction have simply outgrown it; that is, they have more important shit going on in their lives now. If it were my significant other I would go about it like this:

Knock off any and all complaining you do about the game. This will help to keep you on his side throughout your efforts. Ask for one or two nights away from the game, and don't make it about something you want. Make it something good/fun for him. Working out, drinking, learning to cook a new, exotic dish. Try to incorporate his friends into it as well. Whatever he'd be into, but just make sure he is enjoying his involvement. Praise him on his progress, and excitedly plan more things for him to do, or reinforce the things he is doing and enjoying ("Wow, I can really tell a difference since you've been working out.")

After several weeks of being able to not log in for these couple days of the week, see if you can pursuade him to only log in on raid nights once or twice a week. These are scheduled in advance, and should be an easy compromise, especially if he is getting into his hobbies and sees that others want to spend more time with him. If he says he needs experience or gold, you should make the monetary sacrifice and have him buy gold or powerlevelling to get him to 60 with his mounts or whatever it is he is making the excuse for.

I'd say after a couple months of the game being limited to raid night he should get over the game and start being able to see the more important things around him. Offer him some single player games (methadone, heh), and just try to be encouraging of non-WoW elements of his life.

Anyway, to reiterate, making WoW seem like the problem makes him feel as though you are not supportive of his interests. It was easier for me to quit smoking cold turkey than it was to quit playing MMOs. You don't feel bored, alone, or get particularly upset when you are playing the game. It is a drug, and you should really prioritize the weening of your husband off the game over your own needs. Hopefully this analogy isn't too simplistic, but to put in in perspective: you don't really want him to have crazy coke party nights all the time and maybe try to fit you in a couple hours a day, you want him to get over his coke party nights and rediscover his own interest in you.
posted by GooseOnTheLoose at 1:08 AM on May 7, 2006

I guess what I am saying is, it takes some pretty heavy real-world issues to make these games seem so appealing. The only way to address the issue of spending too much time gaming is to address what is so horrible in this dudes life.

Riemann: Your experience doesn't sound fun, but it's not necessarily the general case. I was living a rather happy life with my lovely wife, and I got badly addicted to Dark Age of Camelot for about two months. We took a long-anticipated vacation together, and the whole time I was miserable, because I couldn't stop thinking about all bthe DAoC time I was missing. I realized then that I had to choose between the real world and the game world. I decided I would uninstall it when I got home, and as soon as I made that decision I was able to relax and enjoy the rest of the vacation.

theredpen, I don't have a really good answer for you. It sounds like your husband is more addicted to the game than I was. I know that if I had deceived myself into thinking that I could manage both the game and a marriage, I would have been pretty upset if my wife had given me an ultimatum. Even as it was, I went through a grieving process after cancelling my account. In my particular case I know that an ultimatum would have made me realize how silly I was being, and I would have agreed that it was time to stop, but I would have still resented my wife for forcing it on me.

I'm looking forward to one of AskMe's really wise posters chiming in here.
posted by agropyron at 2:37 AM on May 7, 2006

I should have read GooseOnTheLoose's answer before I posted. That sounds like pretty good advice.
posted by agropyron at 2:39 AM on May 7, 2006

Lots of great getting away from the game advice. I'm going to speak to the lingerie...maybe try a different kind. not all boys are gung ho about baby doll dresses and lace. some boys like their girls to get a little down and nerdy.

Also: the best way to get a man to pay attention to you is pretend you don't want said attention. Dress up like Wonder Woman...and clean house, dust his desk, bring him cookies, play your own games...when he tries to maul you, make him wait a little. If after 30 minutes of that he still cares about the raid, well...that's more than i know how to help with.
posted by nadawi at 2:43 AM on May 7, 2006

It might be possible to substitute another game for World of Warcraft.

WoW is a very time-intensive MMORPG; in addition, a lot of the time is spent pretty mindlessly grinding identical enemies. There's a real temptation to "follow your time" by playing for long stretches once you get started.

Also, once you establish a social circle within the game, there's tremendous social pressure to "keep up" with them in terms of game progression. If you don't you can't play with them as much, and a lot of the social bit goes away.

I'm playing City of Heroes off and on right now, and it's a much easier game to play for an hour or three, then walk away from (sometimes for days.) I'm not suggesting that you do a ton of research and find him a new game to play, but maybe if you suggested he take up a less time-intensive online game he'd be receptive.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 3:01 AM on May 7, 2006

I have been going through this with a lover of five years. What I have learned is this: you cannot change your husband's priorities such that he cares about your more than the game. He is addicted, and he must own the solution to his addiction. It is like dealing with an alcoholic who refuses to seek treatment for his problem.

You've received a lot of advice telling you to bend over backwards to heal your husband of his addiction, while you simultaneously try to keep your relationship going by sheer unreciprocated force of will. However, if he is not committed to spending equal energy on your relationship, you will end up disappointed. Even if you are willing to expend far more energy on your relationship than you receive in return, you're not guaranteed that he will wake up and value you or your relationship again.

My advice is to be completely open with your husband as to the consequnces of his neglect of you. This doesn't mean nagging him - you should be as matter-of-fact and emotionless as you can when discussing these issues. Start building a support group of friends and family for you and your children that is independent of him, because you can't depend on him while he is so self-absorbed. Be as kind as you can, but let him know that you are doing this.

Finally, it is worth spending some time figuring out why your are putting up with a man who puts you on the shelf for a computer game. Do you think he would extend such tolerance to you if the situaiton were reversed? It's really hard, especially with kids in the picture, but you should think through what would happen if you end up deciding to leave him. This is a last resort, but it's one that must be available if he isn't willing to help fix your relationship.

.
posted by rhiannon at 3:41 AM on May 7, 2006

While it's clear that what you're after is spending more time with your husband, there is one important question that (in my skimming of the above) I haven't seen asked:

If he was doing something "productive", say writing a novel, would you still be asking us this question?

Beyond that, I would just reiterate most of the advice above.
posted by jaded at 4:35 AM on May 7, 2006

Also: the best way to get a man to pay attention to you is pretend you don't want said attention

This is dynamite. It also works on women, by the way.

I'm sad that he does the date night thing mostly to appease me and is happier with online "friends."

This is completely understandable, but you do know that the situation is no reflection on you, right? If the game is giving him a feeling of really achieving something, then I don't think anybody would be able to compete with that.
posted by teleskiving at 5:08 AM on May 7, 2006

Wow, thanks to all of you for taking the time to write this detailed and very helpful advice. I think he may have occasional depression, but thankfully not quite as severe as Riemann mentions. Getting him to limit the time will still be very difficult.

I think he may eventually get bored of it; I'm going to try to stop complaining, and look into City of Heroes (thanks, Yelling).

And jaded, you're onto something there: it does somehow bother me that it's (to me) nonproductive.

I also offered to learn how to play once in a while. Probably months from now we'll both be addicted (unlikely).

(nadawi -- hilarious -- I love the Wonder Woman suggestion.)

Thanks again. I'm really glad that I got up the nerve to ask.
posted by theredpen at 5:57 AM on May 7, 2006

WoW--the board game

It's highly rated, takes "only" three hours, and requires interaction with physically present people.

That aside, I concur with "feeling like a hamster at work" or other life-stressing causes that lead to withdrawal from reality mode. Does he have any "real-life" friends?
posted by craniac at 7:54 AM on May 7, 2006

Blizzard should have a service for afflicted spouses that when it is turned on makes it appear like there are all sorts of technical problems with the server. Their realm will be down for hours at a time, or the login process will take a half an hour, and they will be "randomly" logged out (of course, it's not random, it's right after that rare item drops from a monster, but before they can pick it up).

Um... maybe they do have such a service.

I admit that I spend more time than I ought to at WoW. It's designed to be ultra-compelling, and there are so many different pursuits that when you become bored with doing quests, you can go and level your trade talents or make big gold arbitraging the auction house.

But what WILL get me out of the front of it is things that I enjoy doing with my wife or IRL friends, like hiking, skiing, snowshoeing and such: Things that take on the order of half a day and also require a little planning or preparation a day or so in advance. This breaks up the WoW-able blocks of time. With kids, this may be harder to accomplish (though nearly everything you do may require lots of planning an preparation).

Alternatively, you can structure your husband's life similarly to WoW: "Honey, Bob next door has leveled his yardwork to 280 already this season. You're pretty far behind...."
posted by jimfl at 8:13 AM on May 7, 2006

BTW, WoW-ers have a term for what this post is about: "Wife aggro."
posted by jimfl at 8:37 AM on May 7, 2006

We have friends who are couples with kids; we try to get out with them but the kid aspect does affect that. Not many close guy friends. I think he's definitely destressing from a moderately tense job. And I don't want to deny him that outlet -- I'm just (a) lonely in the evenings and (b) annoyed by the vast amount of unproductive time it takes.

jimfi, good advice -- we just got back from a short hike. I was glad he made the effort. It's amazing though because he was still on until 5 minutes before we left and the second we got back. It's incredible -- reminds me of that creepy ST:The Next Generation video game that they all played until they collapsed because it was wired into their brains' pleasure centers.

Of course, here I am on the Internet already, so I guess I can't say much. Turning off the computer now! Thank you all again. This will at least help keep the "wife aggro" down a bit.
posted by theredpen at 10:34 AM on May 7, 2006

Metafilter: they all played until they collapsed because it was wired into their brains' pleasure centers.

This is not a threadjack, but is there any reputable scholarship out there on "internet addiction" ?
posted by craniac at 11:34 AM on May 7, 2006

My soon-to-be-wife refers to the computer as "my other girlfriend". I spend a lot of time online, while she sits in the other room and watches TV. I've tried to show her some of the redeeming virtues of my entertainment, and she's attempted to show me the redeeming virtues of the shows she watches, but mostly I don't ask her to stop watching E, and she doesn't ask me to stop my web browsing. Neither of us are interested in what the other is doing, but that's OK. We do plenty together, so at-home evenings during the week can be spent alone.

If everything else is OK, it's just a phase he's going through, and it'll pass. Give it a couple months. Make sure you get him outside for some fresh air and exercise in the meantime. He'll get bored with it eventually, in the absence of added excitement provided by making it a forbidden activity. It's essentially a pavlovian press-bar-get-pellet kinda activity, and some people take longer to get bored with that than others.

The cases above where the girlfriend was successful at reclaiming her mate through threats and promises make me sad. How can a strong-willed woman be happy with such a spineless man?
posted by Mr. Gunn at 1:28 PM on May 7, 2006

Mr. Gunn,

The difference between your experience and the posters can be summed up in both of your own words.

From her: "My husband is having a great time online with WoW, late every night, sometimes before work in the mornings, and frequently when he gets a chance during the day."

and from you: "We do plenty together, so at-home evenings during the week can be spent alone."

It sounds a little like not only is he playing all the evenings but also not going to bed with his wife because he's playing games. That's a little more than 'just wait until he gets bored'.

I don't think she should threaten. I don't think she should force him. But i do think he should be a little bit better about showing love and attention to his wife.
posted by nadawi at 2:11 PM on May 7, 2006

Not to be vulgar or out of place but, Seduce him. Make him want you. Send him sexy messages on his cell phone. Tell him what your wearing or not wearing to get his attention. Plan those romance nights and add spice to the invitation. My wife places sexy notes and a pair of her undies in my breifcase to get me worked up. What a suprise when I open my breifcase at work. Wow! On date nights she'll wear those undies for me. Step out of the norm and be his fantasy. Make a game out of it. Have fun with it. I guarantee it will work. It did for me.

Good Luck!
Signed workaholic!
posted by johnd101 at 9:43 AM on May 8, 2006

If you're looking for a methadone game, I'd suggest a single player RPG like Oblivion.

One of the key addictive traits of MMORPGs is that they're on nearly 24/7, and they never end -- the whole time an MMO player is doing other things, the game world carries on without them. An addict can be acutely aware of this.

Oblivion is pretty and packed with content like an MMORPG, but when you turn it off? You turn everything off.
posted by gnomeloaf at 6:05 PM on May 8, 2006

Thanks, gnomeloaf (and everyone else); we're working on it. I think he's been making an effort -- he's still totally hooked, and I still hate it. But hey ... effort better than no effort. I'll try mentioning Oblivion, even though I "casually" brought up City of Heroes and he saw right through me and laughed at me. Oh well.
posted by theredpen at 8:18 AM on May 10, 2006