Somewaht caffeinated philosophy in action
August 24, 2023 8:14 AM Subscribe
#metafilterfundraiser2023. What makes a you, well, YOU?
Essentially, what makes a person a person, e.g. what forces have shaped you personally or could shape a person in general? Is there much shaping that is done, or do you think people are born who they are and time just reveals those aspects?
Essentially, what makes a person a person, e.g. what forces have shaped you personally or could shape a person in general? Is there much shaping that is done, or do you think people are born who they are and time just reveals those aspects?
I don't have a good summary of my thoughts on this topic. It's an incredibly knotty problem, philosophically. If you can find a copy of Parfit's Reasons and Persons at your local library, it won't decide the question for you but will get the wheels turning on how complex the problem of what a person is, is.
posted by dis_integration at 8:40 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 8:40 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd say for a lot of us here it's our curiosity. The need to know is a crucial element that drives the type of exploration that leads to careers, hobbies, worldviews -- basically the things that end up defining us to others. How we define ourselves is also a by-product of those explorations, but much more nuanced and involves our inner selves, our mental health, our successes and failures, our path through life.
I'm drawn to curious folk and have very mixed feelings about those who aren't, because I can also see how monomaniacal drive can lead all sorts of places, good and bad, that I'll never likely experience because my curiosity causes me to wander.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:08 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm drawn to curious folk and have very mixed feelings about those who aren't, because I can also see how monomaniacal drive can lead all sorts of places, good and bad, that I'll never likely experience because my curiosity causes me to wander.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:08 AM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Is there much shaping that is done, or do you think people are born who they are and time just reveals those aspects?
I can't see any practical difference between a spontaneous change in somebody's usual patterns of behaviour and a presumably hitherto hidden aspect of their personality that's been there all along. Both alternatives - and, in fact, their presentation as alternatives - are merely stories told to slot perceptions of what a person does into the kind of narrative structure that we generally find comfortable, but people are way more complicated and in general less predictable than any narrative could possibly capture.
It sounds reasonable at first blush to claim that changes in temperament are vanishingly rare, but I have yet to see any cited example that doesn't indulge in absolutely shameless cherry-picking from the subject's personal history in order to make its point.
As to the question of what makes a person a person: simple existence is enough to make me me. My identity does not depend on any description that I or anybody else might apply to me; it just is, by direct inspection. This would presumably remain the case even given radical hypothetical alterations in personal history such as having been conceived, born and/or raised by beings other than those who actually did those things.
All that said: I learned a lot about how to be a person in the world by watching my parents be people in the world, and the older I've got and the more people I've met, the luckier I feel to have had the parents I did. If you feel the same way about yours and you haven't already told them in so many words, I strongly recommend that you make a point of getting drunk enough to do so before any of you die. I'm glad I did.
posted by flabdablet at 9:31 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can't see any practical difference between a spontaneous change in somebody's usual patterns of behaviour and a presumably hitherto hidden aspect of their personality that's been there all along. Both alternatives - and, in fact, their presentation as alternatives - are merely stories told to slot perceptions of what a person does into the kind of narrative structure that we generally find comfortable, but people are way more complicated and in general less predictable than any narrative could possibly capture.
It sounds reasonable at first blush to claim that changes in temperament are vanishingly rare, but I have yet to see any cited example that doesn't indulge in absolutely shameless cherry-picking from the subject's personal history in order to make its point.
As to the question of what makes a person a person: simple existence is enough to make me me. My identity does not depend on any description that I or anybody else might apply to me; it just is, by direct inspection. This would presumably remain the case even given radical hypothetical alterations in personal history such as having been conceived, born and/or raised by beings other than those who actually did those things.
All that said: I learned a lot about how to be a person in the world by watching my parents be people in the world, and the older I've got and the more people I've met, the luckier I feel to have had the parents I did. If you feel the same way about yours and you haven't already told them in so many words, I strongly recommend that you make a point of getting drunk enough to do so before any of you die. I'm glad I did.
posted by flabdablet at 9:31 AM on August 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think you're born as you are and then how people react to you shapes you.
I got born weird. My parents aren't/weren't weird, not too many people in my gene pool are weird, though the Weird Gene seems to float around on Mom's side in a few East Coast relatives, and I don't really get on with most of my family or at least they've never seemed to like me much. Where this came from, I don't know, but it hasn't served me in life to be this way. My new therapist is asking me why I say I'm weird and where I get that from, and the answer is, "because other people have decided that and told me so, repeatedly, and how that's not okay with them." I'm a very mild sort of weird--I dress colorful but I'm not covered in tats and piercings and usually the most unusual thing I'm doing is knitting in public--but people comment on this stuff all the time. Like I'm a weird unicorn people spot in the streets here (not even kidding!).
I know a ton of people find me awful/irritating/stupid/annoying/etc and they started making that super clear at age 5/6 when I first started having to be around other little humans who hated me on sight. It was probably the glasses. I can't help but wish that I'd been homeschooled (okay, not that that would have done any good, my parents cannot teach for shit) or just ANYTHING where I hadn't been thrown to the wolves with the other children taking bites out of me. I read "Libby on Wednesday" when I was a kid (a book about a girl who's homeschooled until middle school, is forced to become "socialized" and then of course gets picked on, but manages to find her own social crowd) and I desperately wish I could have not had to have been around the other little children until later in life, so I could have had my own sense of self without learning early on that I'm just hated for being me by a pretty large contingent of people. And that's just my personality, I'm not even demographically weird, just another shitty straight white woman of average size. At least Libby knew who she was before she had to become "socialized" and had a sense of self that wasn't damaged and influenced by other people's takes on her.
An excellent book on this topic, albeit it's a fiction book, is The Rook by Daniel O'Malley, in which (not a spoiler, it's in the opening) the main character has her memory wiped, but pre-memory wipe she's documented her entire life for her future self so future self knows what's going on. It's very clear that both versions of Myfanwy have the same personality, preferences, talents, etc. but the one big difference between versions 1 and 2 is that version 1 was traumatized at an early age when she came into her powers and lost her family and that turned her into a very timid person who didn't like using her powers. Whereas version 2 literally doesn't remember the trauma. Version 2 is actually a very take charge, brave person because she doesn't have that fear embedded into herself the way that version 1 did. This is one of my favorite books of all time and it's primarily because of seeing what a liberated, brave Myfanwy is like. I'm not saying I want a case of amnesia, but it'd be so nice to see what a version of me who didn't have "feel like shit, you stupid weirdo" embedded into her brain so early on would be like. If I'd grown up on some island alone without other humans to tell me what I am, would I be normal? Would I be okay? We'll never know now.
Another fictional take on this is the Vorkosigan Saga, in which there's a cloning situation around the middle of the series. It's very interesting to compare and contrast the same raw material in a person and then how both people were shaped by their drastically different upbringings. I'll say that both people become experts in their fields, they just end up in very different fields.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I got born weird. My parents aren't/weren't weird, not too many people in my gene pool are weird, though the Weird Gene seems to float around on Mom's side in a few East Coast relatives, and I don't really get on with most of my family or at least they've never seemed to like me much. Where this came from, I don't know, but it hasn't served me in life to be this way. My new therapist is asking me why I say I'm weird and where I get that from, and the answer is, "because other people have decided that and told me so, repeatedly, and how that's not okay with them." I'm a very mild sort of weird--I dress colorful but I'm not covered in tats and piercings and usually the most unusual thing I'm doing is knitting in public--but people comment on this stuff all the time. Like I'm a weird unicorn people spot in the streets here (not even kidding!).
I know a ton of people find me awful/irritating/stupid/annoying/etc and they started making that super clear at age 5/6 when I first started having to be around other little humans who hated me on sight. It was probably the glasses. I can't help but wish that I'd been homeschooled (okay, not that that would have done any good, my parents cannot teach for shit) or just ANYTHING where I hadn't been thrown to the wolves with the other children taking bites out of me. I read "Libby on Wednesday" when I was a kid (a book about a girl who's homeschooled until middle school, is forced to become "socialized" and then of course gets picked on, but manages to find her own social crowd) and I desperately wish I could have not had to have been around the other little children until later in life, so I could have had my own sense of self without learning early on that I'm just hated for being me by a pretty large contingent of people. And that's just my personality, I'm not even demographically weird, just another shitty straight white woman of average size. At least Libby knew who she was before she had to become "socialized" and had a sense of self that wasn't damaged and influenced by other people's takes on her.
An excellent book on this topic, albeit it's a fiction book, is The Rook by Daniel O'Malley, in which (not a spoiler, it's in the opening) the main character has her memory wiped, but pre-memory wipe she's documented her entire life for her future self so future self knows what's going on. It's very clear that both versions of Myfanwy have the same personality, preferences, talents, etc. but the one big difference between versions 1 and 2 is that version 1 was traumatized at an early age when she came into her powers and lost her family and that turned her into a very timid person who didn't like using her powers. Whereas version 2 literally doesn't remember the trauma. Version 2 is actually a very take charge, brave person because she doesn't have that fear embedded into herself the way that version 1 did. This is one of my favorite books of all time and it's primarily because of seeing what a liberated, brave Myfanwy is like. I'm not saying I want a case of amnesia, but it'd be so nice to see what a version of me who didn't have "feel like shit, you stupid weirdo" embedded into her brain so early on would be like. If I'd grown up on some island alone without other humans to tell me what I am, would I be normal? Would I be okay? We'll never know now.
Another fictional take on this is the Vorkosigan Saga, in which there's a cloning situation around the middle of the series. It's very interesting to compare and contrast the same raw material in a person and then how both people were shaped by their drastically different upbringings. I'll say that both people become experts in their fields, they just end up in very different fields.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:04 AM on August 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think we are who we are. And some of us develop false personas in response to reactions of those around us / in order to cope with society. We have various degrees of awareness of this false persona, with personality disorders being completely absorbed in the persona and “well adjusted” people able to employ them fluidly as the situation requires.
The journey, then, is coming home to our true selves. As Joseph Campbell said, the privilege of a life time is being who we are.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:17 AM on August 24, 2023
The journey, then, is coming home to our true selves. As Joseph Campbell said, the privilege of a life time is being who we are.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:17 AM on August 24, 2023
The deeper, more existential answer to what we are is: alive.
The brain has organized “alive experience” into a narrative, a self, “me” vs “you”, an inner world, an outer world, vibration into sound, shadows into visual, meaning, etc. But at its base, what we “are” fundamentally is aliveness. What’s the difference between my alive body and my dead body? The brain (that held the idea of a self etc) is still there but the aliveness is gone.
“It is said that soon after his enlightenment, the Buddha passed a man on the road who was struck by the extraordinary radiance and peacefulness of his presence. The man stopped and asked, “My friend, what are you? Are you a celestial being or a God?”
“No,” said the Buddha.
“Well, then, are you some sort of magician or wizard?”
Again the Buddha answered, “No.”
“Are you a man?”
“No.”
“Well my friend, what are you then?”
“I am awake.”
– Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield, Seeking the Heart of Wisdom
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:23 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The brain has organized “alive experience” into a narrative, a self, “me” vs “you”, an inner world, an outer world, vibration into sound, shadows into visual, meaning, etc. But at its base, what we “are” fundamentally is aliveness. What’s the difference between my alive body and my dead body? The brain (that held the idea of a self etc) is still there but the aliveness is gone.
“It is said that soon after his enlightenment, the Buddha passed a man on the road who was struck by the extraordinary radiance and peacefulness of his presence. The man stopped and asked, “My friend, what are you? Are you a celestial being or a God?”
“No,” said the Buddha.
“Well, then, are you some sort of magician or wizard?”
Again the Buddha answered, “No.”
“Are you a man?”
“No.”
“Well my friend, what are you then?”
“I am awake.”
– Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield, Seeking the Heart of Wisdom
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:23 AM on August 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
In short, the answer to Nature vs. Nurture is: BOTH!
an old neighbour comes to mind. She was talking about how her two adult songs couldn't be more different (one was an artist, the other a businessman), so obviously nature trumped nurture. But then somebody else said, "Yes, but they're both very good people, polite, helpful, generous. Thanks to how they were nurtured."
It's sometimes quite easy to miss the obvious stuff.
posted by philip-random at 1:56 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
an old neighbour comes to mind. She was talking about how her two adult songs couldn't be more different (one was an artist, the other a businessman), so obviously nature trumped nurture. But then somebody else said, "Yes, but they're both very good people, polite, helpful, generous. Thanks to how they were nurtured."
It's sometimes quite easy to miss the obvious stuff.
posted by philip-random at 1:56 PM on August 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
(sons)
posted by philip-random at 2:42 PM on August 24, 2023
posted by philip-random at 2:42 PM on August 24, 2023
agreement with @SaltySalticid’s “BOTH” pronouncement. i’ll add my framing on this theme…
i think our experiences shape us, but more specifically our interactions with these experiences — our interpretations, reactions, and conclusions drawn into beliefs — these become the “me” of me. we are what we do; although i mean doing in the broadest sense, including thinking and feeling.
i think these experiences compound. where we could theorize that during our first significant experience our interpretation was directed by our “nature”, the next significant experience is now being experienced by a person who is shaped by earlier experience interactions. this personal reality formed from compounded experiences directs my next actions, and is largely responsible for what i do day-to-day.
however, we are physical beings, us human animals! it seems ridiculous hubris to conclude otherwise than that we are shaped by our physiology. so yeah, both.
posted by tamarack at 10:26 PM on August 24, 2023
i think our experiences shape us, but more specifically our interactions with these experiences — our interpretations, reactions, and conclusions drawn into beliefs — these become the “me” of me. we are what we do; although i mean doing in the broadest sense, including thinking and feeling.
i think these experiences compound. where we could theorize that during our first significant experience our interpretation was directed by our “nature”, the next significant experience is now being experienced by a person who is shaped by earlier experience interactions. this personal reality formed from compounded experiences directs my next actions, and is largely responsible for what i do day-to-day.
however, we are physical beings, us human animals! it seems ridiculous hubris to conclude otherwise than that we are shaped by our physiology. so yeah, both.
posted by tamarack at 10:26 PM on August 24, 2023
i think these experiences compound.
I agree; there's probably more experience dominated by positive (in the sense of self-reinforcing) feedback than not. "Fake it until you make it" is based on taking advantage of that, and it works surprisingly well in a surprisingly wide range of circumstances.
it seems ridiculous hubris to conclude otherwise than that we are shaped by our physiology.
There are positive feedbacks all over physiology as well. Exercise is pretty much exactly "fake it until you make it" applied on that level. Also, pondering exactly what our gut biota's game is can get real weird real quick.
posted by flabdablet at 10:59 PM on August 24, 2023
I agree; there's probably more experience dominated by positive (in the sense of self-reinforcing) feedback than not. "Fake it until you make it" is based on taking advantage of that, and it works surprisingly well in a surprisingly wide range of circumstances.
it seems ridiculous hubris to conclude otherwise than that we are shaped by our physiology.
There are positive feedbacks all over physiology as well. Exercise is pretty much exactly "fake it until you make it" applied on that level. Also, pondering exactly what our gut biota's game is can get real weird real quick.
posted by flabdablet at 10:59 PM on August 24, 2023
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But if he had different bio parents but was raised by us, he'd have different genes and therefore different hair or eyes or skin, and different aptitudes.
In short, the answer to Nature vs. Nurture is: BOTH!
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:22 AM on August 24, 2023 [7 favorites]