Is assisting a low-income person’s scam wrong?
July 13, 2023 7:54 AM Subscribe
Guy is re-selling baby formula for cash. Does it matter he is spending the cash on cocaine?
Cam is in his mid to late fifties. Cam is currently supported by a decent safety net of public support: SRO housing, health care, food pantry, and a monthly benefit card that can be used in grocery stores. He occasionally works under the table here and there to get cash, which he tends to spend “partying” --which means using cocaine.
Cam does not have a license or a car and relies on an old family friend to drive him on errands and appointments. Family friend/Driver (let's call him Dave) has lately become aware of a (not very lucrative) scam Cam is running.
Cam takes his grocery store card and buys baby formula (up to limit of what can be bought—about a dozen), then sells the baby formula to a small store owner in another state. The owner gives Cam less than 50 percent of the value of the formula (what Cam paid in the store), and Cam takes the cash and uses it to party.
Dave is not a fan of Cam's drug use but doesn't see it as a problem other than a waste of money.
Beyond the obvious bad money management, Dave feels it is wrong in a moral way, but cannot explain why. Dave is considering refusing the transport to the second store.
Do you find this scam ethically wrong, and if so, why?
thanks.
Cam is in his mid to late fifties. Cam is currently supported by a decent safety net of public support: SRO housing, health care, food pantry, and a monthly benefit card that can be used in grocery stores. He occasionally works under the table here and there to get cash, which he tends to spend “partying” --which means using cocaine.
Cam does not have a license or a car and relies on an old family friend to drive him on errands and appointments. Family friend/Driver (let's call him Dave) has lately become aware of a (not very lucrative) scam Cam is running.
Cam takes his grocery store card and buys baby formula (up to limit of what can be bought—about a dozen), then sells the baby formula to a small store owner in another state. The owner gives Cam less than 50 percent of the value of the formula (what Cam paid in the store), and Cam takes the cash and uses it to party.
Dave is not a fan of Cam's drug use but doesn't see it as a problem other than a waste of money.
Beyond the obvious bad money management, Dave feels it is wrong in a moral way, but cannot explain why. Dave is considering refusing the transport to the second store.
Do you find this scam ethically wrong, and if so, why?
thanks.
If I were Dave, I would not participate in this scam. Cam's drug use is illegal, harmful to himself, and quite likely harmful to society as a whole. When he buys cocaine, his money is funding a violent criminal enterprise. Also, the drug use makes it more likely that Cam will require government-subsidized medical care. Finally, anybody who is close to Cam may suffer the indirect effects of his drug use.
posted by alex1965 at 8:07 AM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by alex1965 at 8:07 AM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
The victim is the taxpayer and society, who are now subsidizing a shady store owner instead of paying for food for someone in need. This kind of benefits fraud hurts the social safety net, because it inevitably gets trotted out as a reason to cut benefits later on. That's why it's generally illegal. But I don't think I'd blame Cam for that; it's an abstract concern, and only loosely connected to his actions. I would, however, blame the store owner.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:09 AM on July 13, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 8:09 AM on July 13, 2023 [36 favorites]
I mean, it's benefits fraud. It's almost certainly a violation of the law to uses the benefits card in that way. I think most people agree, though, that not everything that's illegal is immoral (and not everything that's immoral is illegal, and not everything that's legal is moral, and so forth). So where exactly this ranks compared to, idk, double parking or fraudulently claiming a deduction on your taxes or, you know, cocaine use, that's up to Dave to decide. As the commenter above points out, Cam is effectively using benefits from State A to subsidize a small business owner in State B.
There's also the issue that baby formula is hard to come by, but I guess Cam's just moving it from one point of sale to another so I don't know if he's taking it out of the hands of people who need it or making it accessible to other people who need it.
If I were Dave, I wouldn't be willing to drive Cam around to help him with his scheme, not because I think it's particularly immoral, just because it seems like a big waste of time (and gas! and wasting gas is maybe immoral on its own!).
posted by mskyle at 8:12 AM on July 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
There's also the issue that baby formula is hard to come by, but I guess Cam's just moving it from one point of sale to another so I don't know if he's taking it out of the hands of people who need it or making it accessible to other people who need it.
If I were Dave, I wouldn't be willing to drive Cam around to help him with his scheme, not because I think it's particularly immoral, just because it seems like a big waste of time (and gas! and wasting gas is maybe immoral on its own!).
posted by mskyle at 8:12 AM on July 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
Yeah Cam is not a big deal; the fact that formula is a theft target because people desperately need it and so there's a grey economy around it is a shame and a disgrace to us all.
posted by Lawn Beaver at 8:12 AM on July 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by Lawn Beaver at 8:12 AM on July 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
It sounds like he is taking food stamps and coverting it to cash to use on what he wants which is not uncommon but may concidered food stamp fraud. If discovered the penalty for participating in that can be barred from foods stamps for 10 years for the person who is enrolled ( at least in IL anyway). In practice while I have seen many people participate in some version of these schemes only one actually got the barred from food stamps thing.
Dave can choose weather or not to help him by driving around. I don't put too much ethical delimma on this, people who want to use drugs will find more and more dangerous ways to use when the easiest ways are taken away. Addiction doesn't allow for the simple oh this is now inconvenient so I will stop. If that were true, he wouldn't need all the support services he already has in place.
Dave can start onversations about risks and concerns as he has a relationship with this person. He may be able to make a slow difference if he wants, but maybe not. Addiction is unpredictable.
Personally this behavior I don't blink an eye at. I'd rather someone resale some items than shoplift or steal, or engage in sex work or all other types of dangerious ways that people can make money.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:14 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dave can choose weather or not to help him by driving around. I don't put too much ethical delimma on this, people who want to use drugs will find more and more dangerous ways to use when the easiest ways are taken away. Addiction doesn't allow for the simple oh this is now inconvenient so I will stop. If that were true, he wouldn't need all the support services he already has in place.
Dave can start onversations about risks and concerns as he has a relationship with this person. He may be able to make a slow difference if he wants, but maybe not. Addiction is unpredictable.
Personally this behavior I don't blink an eye at. I'd rather someone resale some items than shoplift or steal, or engage in sex work or all other types of dangerious ways that people can make money.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:14 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
but no one's forcing them to shop there
Well, no one but the hungry babies, and the parents that are now paying perhaps fractionally high prices because of this scam. Unless you think parents who can barely afford formula can just drive to another state and get it at better price.
Also, not sure if the wave have subsided, but there was a very acute baby formula shortage recently (if it's not still ongoing) which resulted in some pretty desperate behavior by parents. And if "Dave" has no problem contributing to increasing prices of a commodity essential for (some) human life, then Dave better not have any problems with Wall St traders making bread/water/etc. more expensive.
Also, this if this public assistance money, this dude will probably get caught, and then it's possible "Dave" will have very directly contributed to this generation's "Welfare Queen" myth, and Congressional Republicans might even be calling him out by name on the House floor when they move to forbid formula being covered by SNAP because dudes buy it and other dudes (named Dave) drive them out of state so they can get cash for cocaine.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:14 AM on July 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
Well, no one but the hungry babies, and the parents that are now paying perhaps fractionally high prices because of this scam. Unless you think parents who can barely afford formula can just drive to another state and get it at better price.
Also, not sure if the wave have subsided, but there was a very acute baby formula shortage recently (if it's not still ongoing) which resulted in some pretty desperate behavior by parents. And if "Dave" has no problem contributing to increasing prices of a commodity essential for (some) human life, then Dave better not have any problems with Wall St traders making bread/water/etc. more expensive.
Also, this if this public assistance money, this dude will probably get caught, and then it's possible "Dave" will have very directly contributed to this generation's "Welfare Queen" myth, and Congressional Republicans might even be calling him out by name on the House floor when they move to forbid formula being covered by SNAP because dudes buy it and other dudes (named Dave) drive them out of state so they can get cash for cocaine.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:14 AM on July 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
If there was a baby formula shortage in your state, but not the state that Cam is selling it in, then that would make it morally questionable to me, even if the amount is just 12 units.
But absent of this, what Cam is doing is not technically legal but it's also not really hurting anyone. But as pointed out above, if I was Dave I'd be charging him for all the gas.
posted by coffeecat at 8:15 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
But absent of this, what Cam is doing is not technically legal but it's also not really hurting anyone. But as pointed out above, if I was Dave I'd be charging him for all the gas.
posted by coffeecat at 8:15 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't really see this as a scam on Cam's part, unless I suppose there are terms attached to the food benefits that specifically state he isn't allowed to resell what he gets with those benefits? I wouldn't lose any sleep about that, if that is the issue. We put all sorts of restrictions on how people with low income can use their social assistance, many of them are based in some sort of prejudice or fear, and in general I think those of us who aren't using those assistance systems can take a big step back and not second-guess how the people who are work within those restrictions. If Cam wants to take the risk of losing those benefits if he's found out, that's his call to make and I don't think it's unethical or immoral of him to do so.
All of that said, there's no reason Dave has to be party to an arrangement that he's not comfortable with. He can stop being available for those trips. Cam and his store owner buddy can figure out another arrangement. Dave doesn't have to be able to produce an extensive ethical justification, he can just say "I'd rather not drive you on those trips, you'll need to figure something else out" and be done.
posted by Stacey at 8:16 AM on July 13, 2023
All of that said, there's no reason Dave has to be party to an arrangement that he's not comfortable with. He can stop being available for those trips. Cam and his store owner buddy can figure out another arrangement. Dave doesn't have to be able to produce an extensive ethical justification, he can just say "I'd rather not drive you on those trips, you'll need to figure something else out" and be done.
posted by Stacey at 8:16 AM on July 13, 2023
I'd be okay with this as a harm reduction strategy, maybe. It's not like Cam is just going to abandon trivial illegalities, give up seeking cash and give up cocaine; he's likely to substitute other methods and other drugs. How I'd feel about this would depend a lot on what I knew about Cam's character and personal history and what I felt he was likely to do when he could no longer get rides. Cam's life is probably a pretty lousy one, no matter how much time he spends "partying", and I'm not really upset by my taxpayer dollars being very slightly redirected.
Another option - if Cam isn't chipping in for gas and Dave still wants to help him out, Dave could give him, eg, a little cash or a small gift card periodically in the same value as what he'd spent, just between friends.
I want to point out that there is massive, massive fraud against the taxpayer by the wealthy and that US policy is what supports the drug trade, not individual, precarious addicts. You can always say that just because the rich rip off the government (think of all those "forgiven" PPP loans) that doesn't mean that the poor should be allowed to do the same and that's fine, but it is worth reflecting that we all tolerate absolutely massive fraud and terrible international drug policy all the time, rarely even thinking of it at elections. If we can set those things aside when the rich do them, why can't we set them aside for the poor?
If Dave isn't comfortable with this, he doesn't need to do it, though. "This bothers me and goes against my principles in a nebulous way" wouldn't be good enough if it were a very serious matter, but long drives to help with a little shady arbitrage are not mandatory.
Dave probably cares about Cam - if he bows out here, he can find some other way to help Cam that is more in line with his values.
posted by Frowner at 8:18 AM on July 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
Another option - if Cam isn't chipping in for gas and Dave still wants to help him out, Dave could give him, eg, a little cash or a small gift card periodically in the same value as what he'd spent, just between friends.
I want to point out that there is massive, massive fraud against the taxpayer by the wealthy and that US policy is what supports the drug trade, not individual, precarious addicts. You can always say that just because the rich rip off the government (think of all those "forgiven" PPP loans) that doesn't mean that the poor should be allowed to do the same and that's fine, but it is worth reflecting that we all tolerate absolutely massive fraud and terrible international drug policy all the time, rarely even thinking of it at elections. If we can set those things aside when the rich do them, why can't we set them aside for the poor?
If Dave isn't comfortable with this, he doesn't need to do it, though. "This bothers me and goes against my principles in a nebulous way" wouldn't be good enough if it were a very serious matter, but long drives to help with a little shady arbitrage are not mandatory.
Dave probably cares about Cam - if he bows out here, he can find some other way to help Cam that is more in line with his values.
posted by Frowner at 8:18 AM on July 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
It's not the world's worst sin and I wouldn't expect Republicans to change their ways even if Cam suddenly became a model citizen, but were I Dave I wouldn't spend my gas money helping Cam make his coke money. Cocaine access is not a fundamental human right.
posted by kingdead at 8:18 AM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 8:18 AM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Is being an accessory to fraud wrong? Yes.
Dave is right to consider this morally wrong. Cam is using his grocery benefits fraudulently and then turning around and getting food from a pantry.
If he was donating this formula to mothers in need then sure, this is a robin hood type grey area. But selling it and buying cocaine...is this really a question?
posted by Narrow Harbor at 8:19 AM on July 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
Dave is right to consider this morally wrong. Cam is using his grocery benefits fraudulently and then turning around and getting food from a pantry.
If he was donating this formula to mothers in need then sure, this is a robin hood type grey area. But selling it and buying cocaine...is this really a question?
posted by Narrow Harbor at 8:19 AM on July 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
Also, shady bodegas are shady in lots of ways, some good and some bad. They often rip off locals in general, but OTOH I've also known bodega owners who did some grey stuff to help locals. There's a whole economy of this kind of stuff. What Cam is doing isn't really weird, except that a lot of people use the cash for day to day necessities or alcohol rather than drugs, because drugs are super expensive.
My feeling about all this stuff is kind of "eh, set society up to be shitty, some behavior is going to be shitty". I don't love it (because of the steady cocaine use, not the arbitrage) but it's a natural knock-on of the drug war, high rents, lack of healthcare and social support, etc.
posted by Frowner at 8:23 AM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
My feeling about all this stuff is kind of "eh, set society up to be shitty, some behavior is going to be shitty". I don't love it (because of the steady cocaine use, not the arbitrage) but it's a natural knock-on of the drug war, high rents, lack of healthcare and social support, etc.
posted by Frowner at 8:23 AM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
there are terms attached to the food benefits that specifically state he isn't allowed to resell what he gets with those benefits?
Also, this if this public assistance money, this dude will probably get caught
As someone who used to get food stamps: yes, the really hammer it into you when you get your benefits card of how it's illegal to share your card/PIN with anyone, etc.
But also...I'm guessing there are thousands of Cam's out there. While I'm sure it varies by state, when I qualified the amount of food stamps I got was way more than I could easily spend in a month. If some poor people take advantage of that fact by making a little money on the side, that seems like a really, really, small problem in the grand scheme of things. And the likelihood of getting caught is pretty small- I highly doubt the state cares about tiny bits of food stamp fraud. If Cam was running a big operation, that would be different.
Cam is using his grocery benefits fraudulently and then turning around and getting food from a pantry.
No pantry was mentioned in the OP - just two for profit grocery stores.
posted by coffeecat at 8:24 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, this if this public assistance money, this dude will probably get caught
As someone who used to get food stamps: yes, the really hammer it into you when you get your benefits card of how it's illegal to share your card/PIN with anyone, etc.
But also...I'm guessing there are thousands of Cam's out there. While I'm sure it varies by state, when I qualified the amount of food stamps I got was way more than I could easily spend in a month. If some poor people take advantage of that fact by making a little money on the side, that seems like a really, really, small problem in the grand scheme of things. And the likelihood of getting caught is pretty small- I highly doubt the state cares about tiny bits of food stamp fraud. If Cam was running a big operation, that would be different.
Cam is using his grocery benefits fraudulently and then turning around and getting food from a pantry.
No pantry was mentioned in the OP - just two for profit grocery stores.
posted by coffeecat at 8:24 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The “scam” with the baby formula is necessary because welfare is paid in stamps rather than cash. The reasons for this are condescending and racist ideas about welfare queens. They just give cash in many other countries. I have absolutely no problem with welfare recipients doing whatever they need to work around this nonsense.
I’m ignoring what the money is spent on. Buying drugs is illegal but it’s not a scam.
posted by caek at 8:26 AM on July 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
I’m ignoring what the money is spent on. Buying drugs is illegal but it’s not a scam.
posted by caek at 8:26 AM on July 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
Is the small store owner marking the formula up way above the price the big stores charge? If it’s getting sold at a good price to people who maybe can’t get to bigger stores that would sort of make it feel more ok/less bad to me.
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:28 AM on July 13, 2023
posted by needs more cowbell at 8:28 AM on July 13, 2023
If it wasn't baby formula I'd personally be morally fine with this although it does seem like some type of fraud. The baby formula part would make me unwilling to assist in case this activity makes baby food harder to find or more expensive for the people that actually need it, given the recent shortages mentioned above.
posted by emd3737 at 8:42 AM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 8:42 AM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm slightly surprised that people are focusing on moral issues related to the baby formula. I'd be opposed to this scam simply based on buying and using a dangerous, addictive, and illegal drug.
posted by akk2014 at 8:48 AM on July 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by akk2014 at 8:48 AM on July 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
There's also the issue that in a time where there are baby formula shortages, his buying them up in one community means mothers in the community where he's purchasing it will not be able to buy any. I'm in a neighborhood where I don't think the price is an issue, and I've seen some moms in my local FB groups who were pretty desperate because they literally couldn't find the only formula their baby can eat. To me the cocaine is a lesser issue than the scam itself.
posted by Mchelly at 8:49 AM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 8:49 AM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Whew, these answers are illustrating something about the Mefi demo. People reselling items they bought with SNAP or its predecessors (or just selling the food stamps themselves, though that's harder with the cards) has been going on since these programs started. It's not ideal, and it is (generally) against the rules, but it's caused by our refusal to just give people money, which is largely driven by racist or at the very best paternalistic notions of the finances of poor people.
Meanwhile, Cam's going to get his coke one way or another.
Now, personally, I feel that if you care a lot about Cam and hate the fact that he's using coke, it's okay for you individually to choose not to drive him on drug-buying trips. That's not what's involved here, though. If I were in a position where I couldn't stand any police scrutiny at all, self-preservation might dictate not driving him on his "selling" trips where there's a small but real chance he might get in some trouble. But would you refuse to drive him to a legal job because he's going to spend some of that money on drugs? I doubt it.
In most circumstances, if, as an adult with a decent amount of experience, you're feeling a "moral" qualm but can't articulate what the moral problem is, you're probably experiencing some form of distaste instead. It is very important not to invent an ex post "moral" justification for what is actually distaste.
P.S. For almost anyone, living in an SRO isn't a "decent" life.
posted by praemunire at 8:52 AM on July 13, 2023 [29 favorites]
Meanwhile, Cam's going to get his coke one way or another.
Now, personally, I feel that if you care a lot about Cam and hate the fact that he's using coke, it's okay for you individually to choose not to drive him on drug-buying trips. That's not what's involved here, though. If I were in a position where I couldn't stand any police scrutiny at all, self-preservation might dictate not driving him on his "selling" trips where there's a small but real chance he might get in some trouble. But would you refuse to drive him to a legal job because he's going to spend some of that money on drugs? I doubt it.
In most circumstances, if, as an adult with a decent amount of experience, you're feeling a "moral" qualm but can't articulate what the moral problem is, you're probably experiencing some form of distaste instead. It is very important not to invent an ex post "moral" justification for what is actually distaste.
P.S. For almost anyone, living in an SRO isn't a "decent" life.
posted by praemunire at 8:52 AM on July 13, 2023 [29 favorites]
I don’t Know but i want to share with you what happened to me in Germany. Baby formula was subsidized here when my kids were babies and babies tend to drink one kind of formula, Chinese tour groups etc and Chinese people were buying in bulk and doing deals with staff (I saw them) to buy many cartons over the limit to take and sell online in China. There were many times I couldn’t get my formula. So I bulk bought hundreds of euros so I didn’t run out. Meanwhile I watched tons of pallets of formula going to China it just felt wrong to me.
posted by catspajammies at 9:00 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by catspajammies at 9:00 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess I would mainly want to know two things before making this decision. 1. Is it actually true that Cam is going to get the same amount of coke one way or another? If he is going to get more coke using this scam than not, that's bad for his health, I wouldn't want to enable that. 2. Is there a decent change he will get caught? If so, I wouldn't want to drive him.
posted by catquas at 9:07 AM on July 13, 2023
posted by catquas at 9:07 AM on July 13, 2023
I'm slightly surprised that people are focusing on moral issues related to the baby formula. I'd be opposed to this scam simply based on buying and using a dangerous, addictive, and illegal drug.
I think most people are not focusing on the coke use because the OP explicitly said that Dave doesn't have a moral problem the coke use.
posted by mskyle at 9:16 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think most people are not focusing on the coke use because the OP explicitly said that Dave doesn't have a moral problem the coke use.
posted by mskyle at 9:16 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
BTW, I looked it up, and if Cam is getting the absolute max benefit available (he isn't) and spends every dime he gets on baby formula (unlikely), he's spending all of $281/mo. Unless he's living somewhere like, I don't know, the American equivalent of Iqaluit, the idea that Cam's purchases are seriously distorting the local economy is...let's call it overblown.
posted by praemunire at 9:18 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:18 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
If I were Dave I would feel uncomfortable and would want to remove myself from this situation so I wouldn't have to deal with thinking about it. I would offer to help connect Cam with transportation benefits. Some benefits that might be available to Cam are Paratransit, subsidized bus vouchers or low-income bus pass, and medical transportation - a benefit of many Medicaid plans.
posted by latkes at 9:34 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 9:34 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The problem with liquidating SNAP to buy drugs isn't the liquidating -- I agree that cash is what should be provided -- but that, ironically, if it were to be discovered as buying drugs, it would give the pearl-clutchers the exact ammunition they want, to further restrict benefits. It would fulfill their expectations, and give them headline bait. So, ultimately, it harms other welfare dependents.
I also totally agree that by commoditizating baby formula, it hurts ... babies, in the end. Seeing diapers and baby formula under lock & key at CVS is a stark reminder of some deep problems we have.
posted by Dashy at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I also totally agree that by commoditizating baby formula, it hurts ... babies, in the end. Seeing diapers and baby formula under lock & key at CVS is a stark reminder of some deep problems we have.
posted by Dashy at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
The harm here, is that Cam's actions may lead to the rules around SNAP being changed so that parents with babies can no longer use SNAP to buy the baby formula that their babies need. :(
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:53 AM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:53 AM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
We can see above that there are several factors combining in this that could be morally problematic, which is probably why it's hard for Dave to work out whether he's OK with it or not.
Let's say Cam was using his card to buy orange juice and selling it in order to buy apple juice. Because he doesn't like OJ and the places he can use his card don't stock apple juice. (Or pick two other non-problematic items.) Does Dave find that problematic? If so, one moral issue is with this basic exchange, irregardless of what is sold, and what the cash is spent on.
If we swap the OJ for the baby formula in the question, is that problematic for Dave? Or more problematic? If so, that's obviously the only, or a second, issue for him.
And then we have spending the cash on drugs. Dave's apparently fine with this but, so it's not the issue for him. But for others it could be the only problem, or a second problem, or a third problem.
posted by fabius at 10:00 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Let's say Cam was using his card to buy orange juice and selling it in order to buy apple juice. Because he doesn't like OJ and the places he can use his card don't stock apple juice. (Or pick two other non-problematic items.) Does Dave find that problematic? If so, one moral issue is with this basic exchange, irregardless of what is sold, and what the cash is spent on.
If we swap the OJ for the baby formula in the question, is that problematic for Dave? Or more problematic? If so, that's obviously the only, or a second, issue for him.
And then we have spending the cash on drugs. Dave's apparently fine with this but, so it's not the issue for him. But for others it could be the only problem, or a second problem, or a third problem.
posted by fabius at 10:00 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes this is ethically wrong.
There are finite resources to care for babies and children. He is taking those. Babies and children will have less, which means suffering, hunger, poor nutrition, poor development, school being harder or much more stressful.
I know that there is not literally one shelf full of formula and that money is fungible - but it is a more abstract resource.
In addition, good will and people's willingness to support public programs is easily destroyed too, and is a very valuable resource which is at risk.
It could be argued that Cam is doing the best he can with the life he has, and that caring about anything beyond that isn't possible for him right now.
Dave, though, does have that ability. So the ethical burden on Dave is real.
posted by amtho at 10:03 AM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are finite resources to care for babies and children. He is taking those. Babies and children will have less, which means suffering, hunger, poor nutrition, poor development, school being harder or much more stressful.
I know that there is not literally one shelf full of formula and that money is fungible - but it is a more abstract resource.
In addition, good will and people's willingness to support public programs is easily destroyed too, and is a very valuable resource which is at risk.
It could be argued that Cam is doing the best he can with the life he has, and that caring about anything beyond that isn't possible for him right now.
Dave, though, does have that ability. So the ethical burden on Dave is real.
posted by amtho at 10:03 AM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Dave is aiding & abetting fraud, so no, I would not do it.
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:04 AM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by haptic_avenger at 10:04 AM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
The question is framed (in the opening and closing) as: "Guy is re-selling baby formula for cash. Does it matter he is spending the cash on cocaine?" "Dave feels it is wrong in a moral way, but cannot explain why." "Do you find this scam ethically wrong, and if so, why?"
So there are a lot of things to work with just here. How does one feel about drugs, about benefits programs, poor people, bureaucracy, privilege, concern about what people might think, and babies. You're going to get a lot of different answers.
Personally, I think that Dave needs to think about why Dave feels uncomfortable, without leaning on an analysis of Cam.
posted by zippy at 10:06 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
So there are a lot of things to work with just here. How does one feel about drugs, about benefits programs, poor people, bureaucracy, privilege, concern about what people might think, and babies. You're going to get a lot of different answers.
Personally, I think that Dave needs to think about why Dave feels uncomfortable, without leaning on an analysis of Cam.
posted by zippy at 10:06 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Presumably Cam is getting the food he needs from the food pantry rather than paying for it with SNAP? So isn't Cam trading people's charity to the food bank for drugs? That seems to raise an assortment of ethical issues, from defeating the aims of the donors to taking some of a finite supply of food out of the hands of people that otherwise can't get it.
If he was buying cans of peas and selling them on the black market that same problem exists. I don't think the form the transaction takes is the core of the issue here. The baby formula is ultimately sold at probably the same price to people who need baby formula, so he might be relocating it but he's not taking it out of the market or denying it to anybody.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
If he was buying cans of peas and selling them on the black market that same problem exists. I don't think the form the transaction takes is the core of the issue here. The baby formula is ultimately sold at probably the same price to people who need baby formula, so he might be relocating it but he's not taking it out of the market or denying it to anybody.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cocaine supports a particularly violent set of criminals. I doubt that an ethical form of cocaine exists.
Aiding fraud could have consequences for the friend.
Every system will be exploited. I lose more sleep over war industries exploiting my tax dollars, but the cocaine industry is as malevolent. On a practical level, this isn't a lot of support, on an ethical level, it's not acceptable.
posted by theora55 at 11:03 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Aiding fraud could have consequences for the friend.
Every system will be exploited. I lose more sleep over war industries exploiting my tax dollars, but the cocaine industry is as malevolent. On a practical level, this isn't a lot of support, on an ethical level, it's not acceptable.
posted by theora55 at 11:03 AM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am feeling very uncomfortable about all the comments suggesting that this is a small fry in the grand scheme of things and that the System has made Cam to act this way. And that somehow using taxpayer-subsidised money to exchange baby formula for coke (!) is somehow okay and maybe even desirable (bodegas supporting local communities???). I think some very dubious points are made here, and that there’s a sense people are outcompeting themselves to prove themselves The Cool Liberal, F the System.
I think at some point in everyone’s lives, one has to say, “okay this line has been crossed, I have personal responsibility to not perpetuate this fraud any longer.” It’s wrong, and yes, small in the grand scheme of things, but it’s still fraud that is committed in order to buy … *checks notes* cocaine. Not food for children. Not to stave off bankruptcy.
Sometimes you wonder how large crimes get committed. Financial swindling, kickbacks. All along the way are little people in that chain who said, ‘Ah, but I am just a small fry in the large pond, the system is corrupt anyway, so why shouldn’t I commit this small fraud to benefit myself just a little bit more.’
The excuse ‘Oh but this is benefits fraud is nothing in the grand scheme of things, other people do much worse, the system is flawed’ does not make it okay. Sheesh.
Dave should absolutely stop driving his friend around.
posted by moiraine at 11:28 AM on July 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
I think at some point in everyone’s lives, one has to say, “okay this line has been crossed, I have personal responsibility to not perpetuate this fraud any longer.” It’s wrong, and yes, small in the grand scheme of things, but it’s still fraud that is committed in order to buy … *checks notes* cocaine. Not food for children. Not to stave off bankruptcy.
Sometimes you wonder how large crimes get committed. Financial swindling, kickbacks. All along the way are little people in that chain who said, ‘Ah, but I am just a small fry in the large pond, the system is corrupt anyway, so why shouldn’t I commit this small fraud to benefit myself just a little bit more.’
The excuse ‘Oh but this is benefits fraud is nothing in the grand scheme of things, other people do much worse, the system is flawed’ does not make it okay. Sheesh.
Dave should absolutely stop driving his friend around.
posted by moiraine at 11:28 AM on July 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
So, Dave's understandably worried about how to say no to Cam when he next asks for a ride. That's when the ethical calculus becomes truly challenging: an immediate need, wish, strong desire on the part of a friend is in conflict with strong ethical reasoning to say no.
Dave may have to say something that hurts Cam's feelings, or that even angers him, to stay with the course advocated here. The risk to Dave, or to Dave and Cam's relationship, is part of the ethical system too, but it may not outweigh the societal costs of continuing the fraud.
The best help we can give Dave right now is to help him a) discover the best way to answer Cam's next request, and b) consider whether there are other actions he can take to minimize the risks mentioned above.
posted by amtho at 11:44 AM on July 13, 2023
Dave may have to say something that hurts Cam's feelings, or that even angers him, to stay with the course advocated here. The risk to Dave, or to Dave and Cam's relationship, is part of the ethical system too, but it may not outweigh the societal costs of continuing the fraud.
The best help we can give Dave right now is to help him a) discover the best way to answer Cam's next request, and b) consider whether there are other actions he can take to minimize the risks mentioned above.
posted by amtho at 11:44 AM on July 13, 2023
a sense people are outcompeting themselves to prove themselves The Cool Liberal, F the System.
No, I just grew up in a neighborhood where this was a common survival tactic (like, you know SNAP doesn't buy diapers, right?), as it has been for decades (one of the reasons why I find the "oh no, what if the right finds about this???" response a little nonsensical), and so I am approaching it from a different angle than an upper-middle-class-for-life person for whom this is a shocking new scam that must be being carried on by bad people, maybe even addicts. In a world of immense injustice imposed on people like Cam by powerful people who will always enjoy impunity along with their wealth, I have a great deal of difficulty getting worked up about small-time survival hustles of this sort, carried out by someone who shouldn't have to need to do so to begin with. Which doesn't mean Dave has some kind of moral obligation to help out if he doesn't feel like it, of course.
posted by praemunire at 11:53 AM on July 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
No, I just grew up in a neighborhood where this was a common survival tactic (like, you know SNAP doesn't buy diapers, right?), as it has been for decades (one of the reasons why I find the "oh no, what if the right finds about this???" response a little nonsensical), and so I am approaching it from a different angle than an upper-middle-class-for-life person for whom this is a shocking new scam that must be being carried on by bad people, maybe even addicts. In a world of immense injustice imposed on people like Cam by powerful people who will always enjoy impunity along with their wealth, I have a great deal of difficulty getting worked up about small-time survival hustles of this sort, carried out by someone who shouldn't have to need to do so to begin with. Which doesn't mean Dave has some kind of moral obligation to help out if he doesn't feel like it, of course.
posted by praemunire at 11:53 AM on July 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
an upper-middle-class-for-life person for whom this is a shocking new scam that must be being carried on by bad people, maybe even addicts
I grew up in a Third-World country (though we say emerging economy these days) where corruption is rife and low-level theft common, my mother and father grew up in absolute poverty (less $2/day level), my grandparents were, variously, illiterate, only primary school education, some high school education.
So I know something about 'bad' neighbourhoods and corrupted systems probably much more than any North American here commenting would.
The characteristic of these places I grew up in is that corruption and low-level fraud is rife. Everywhere. The easy way out is for Dave to say, the system is screwed, so I am going to enable this small fraud. Which make's everyone's life a little bit worse. Because who does low-level fraud and stealing benefit? Definitely not people or their children living in the neighbourhood, who has to live among drug dealing. Definitely not people on benefits, because benefit fraud gives this a bad name. Only person it really benefits is Cam and his cocaine habit, and the dodgy shop owner, who is likely going to sell that baby formula at a profit margin that is beneficial to them.
Also, Cam's fraud is not a 'small time survival hustle' -- the opposite of survival, in fact, those drugs are sure to be sending him to an early grave. No moral high ground to be had here.
It takes a few brave and different people to say, nah, I want to make a world a better place, and by not enabling low-level theft and fraud and drug addicts in the neighbourhood. Taking a bit of personal responsibility.
The 'system' is made little by little of personal choices that all of us make every day, yes, rich people have more influence, and also what we and Dave turn a blind eye to, choose to enable or not enable.
posted by moiraine at 12:48 PM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
I grew up in a Third-World country (though we say emerging economy these days) where corruption is rife and low-level theft common, my mother and father grew up in absolute poverty (less $2/day level), my grandparents were, variously, illiterate, only primary school education, some high school education.
So I know something about 'bad' neighbourhoods and corrupted systems probably much more than any North American here commenting would.
The characteristic of these places I grew up in is that corruption and low-level fraud is rife. Everywhere. The easy way out is for Dave to say, the system is screwed, so I am going to enable this small fraud. Which make's everyone's life a little bit worse. Because who does low-level fraud and stealing benefit? Definitely not people or their children living in the neighbourhood, who has to live among drug dealing. Definitely not people on benefits, because benefit fraud gives this a bad name. Only person it really benefits is Cam and his cocaine habit, and the dodgy shop owner, who is likely going to sell that baby formula at a profit margin that is beneficial to them.
Also, Cam's fraud is not a 'small time survival hustle' -- the opposite of survival, in fact, those drugs are sure to be sending him to an early grave. No moral high ground to be had here.
It takes a few brave and different people to say, nah, I want to make a world a better place, and by not enabling low-level theft and fraud and drug addicts in the neighbourhood. Taking a bit of personal responsibility.
The 'system' is made little by little of personal choices that all of us make every day, yes, rich people have more influence, and also what we and Dave turn a blind eye to, choose to enable or not enable.
posted by moiraine at 12:48 PM on July 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
If I were personally giving someone grocery money, and then I found out they were lighting half of it on fire, spending the other half on drugs, and getting their actual groceries from a food pantry, I would be annoyed enough to stop giving them money and just give it to the food pantry instead. So I wouldn't want to be aiding and abetting this scam that does the same thing with benefits money either.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 1:33 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 1:33 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Only person it really benefits is Cam and his cocaine habit
Yes. Remember, the money is supposed to be benefiting him. He is spending a portion of his meager income on cocaine rather than on peanut butter, as the U.S. government intends. That is the crux of the matter. Ideally, he would be spending it on peanut butter and fresh vegetables; he almost certainly has an unhealthy diet. However, he has a cocaine habit. The money to sustain that has to come from somewhere. In a fallen world, I think it highly preferable for him and for the people around him that he merely spend money on it that he is supposed to be spending on peanut butter than that he obtain it in any of the ways that are much more dangerous and harmful to everyone involved.
It takes a few brave and different people to say, nah, I want to make a world a better place,
In a better place, one would not consider substance disorder a moral problem or use eliminationist rhetoric about people suffering from it, but I see we're not heading there.
posted by praemunire at 1:39 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yes. Remember, the money is supposed to be benefiting him. He is spending a portion of his meager income on cocaine rather than on peanut butter, as the U.S. government intends. That is the crux of the matter. Ideally, he would be spending it on peanut butter and fresh vegetables; he almost certainly has an unhealthy diet. However, he has a cocaine habit. The money to sustain that has to come from somewhere. In a fallen world, I think it highly preferable for him and for the people around him that he merely spend money on it that he is supposed to be spending on peanut butter than that he obtain it in any of the ways that are much more dangerous and harmful to everyone involved.
It takes a few brave and different people to say, nah, I want to make a world a better place,
In a better place, one would not consider substance disorder a moral problem or use eliminationist rhetoric about people suffering from it, but I see we're not heading there.
posted by praemunire at 1:39 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
there is nothing brave or different about standing up to make a poor drug user’s life more of a misery than it already is. there is no “better world” in that.
this particular poor drug user is either so honest or so risk-averse & cautious that he isn’t stealing for resale, which would make him at least twice as much money; he is buying products and then selling what he owns. since he is doing it the hard way, he is restricted by purchase limits from doing fantasied harm to children by cleaning out one store’s stock.if the other store is paying him less than half the price he paid, they could even be making a profit selling it at a lower price than the first store charges. I expect they aren’t, but they could be.
if his friend is sick of doing him this favor, he is well within his rights to tell the guy he can only give him rides to medical appointments and regular grocery shopping from now on. nothing to do with any “scam.”
many people agree that being a retail middleman is unethical in some way, but whether or not that is true, it is certainly not a worse thing for a poor person to be than for anyone else.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:24 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
this particular poor drug user is either so honest or so risk-averse & cautious that he isn’t stealing for resale, which would make him at least twice as much money; he is buying products and then selling what he owns. since he is doing it the hard way, he is restricted by purchase limits from doing fantasied harm to children by cleaning out one store’s stock.if the other store is paying him less than half the price he paid, they could even be making a profit selling it at a lower price than the first store charges. I expect they aren’t, but they could be.
if his friend is sick of doing him this favor, he is well within his rights to tell the guy he can only give him rides to medical appointments and regular grocery shopping from now on. nothing to do with any “scam.”
many people agree that being a retail middleman is unethical in some way, but whether or not that is true, it is certainly not a worse thing for a poor person to be than for anyone else.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:24 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is assisting a low-income person’s scam wrong?
Dave is not a fan of Cam's drug use but doesn't see it as a problem other than a waste of money.
Beyond the obvious bad money management, Dave feels it is wrong in a moral way, but cannot explain why. Dave is considering refusing the transport to the second store.
Just wanted to point out that if Dave would prefer not to drive Cam to the store, Dave has the right to do this without having to explain why he thinks what Cam is doing is wrong. In fact Dave has the right to stop driving Cam to the store without giving any reason other than "Sorry Cam, I won't be able to give you a ride".
Dave is allowed to stop doing things just because the thing makes him feel uncomfortable in some way, even if he isn't entirely sure exactly what way that is or how to describe it.
If Dave is being pressured to give elaborate reasons why, there is nothing morally wrong with replying with "it just won't be possible". Also, it is often considered morally correct to do things that are polite, "I'm sorry but I won't be able to do that any more, it just won't be possible" is widely considered to be a polite reply to refuse to do something.
posted by yohko at 2:34 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Dave is not a fan of Cam's drug use but doesn't see it as a problem other than a waste of money.
Beyond the obvious bad money management, Dave feels it is wrong in a moral way, but cannot explain why. Dave is considering refusing the transport to the second store.
Just wanted to point out that if Dave would prefer not to drive Cam to the store, Dave has the right to do this without having to explain why he thinks what Cam is doing is wrong. In fact Dave has the right to stop driving Cam to the store without giving any reason other than "Sorry Cam, I won't be able to give you a ride".
Dave is allowed to stop doing things just because the thing makes him feel uncomfortable in some way, even if he isn't entirely sure exactly what way that is or how to describe it.
If Dave is being pressured to give elaborate reasons why, there is nothing morally wrong with replying with "it just won't be possible". Also, it is often considered morally correct to do things that are polite, "I'm sorry but I won't be able to do that any more, it just won't be possible" is widely considered to be a polite reply to refuse to do something.
posted by yohko at 2:34 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is really an individual decision and driving Dave around to support his cocaine habit is no better or worse than refusing to do so. It's not really going to change anything either way - Dave will still get his cocaine one way or another, he'll just have to work a bit harder to do so.
If I were Cam, I would be uncomfortable with assisting Dave in his cocaine habit, but I wouldn't judge anyone who considered (eg) it better to help Dave because the alternative way of getting his cocaine may be more dangerous to Dave.
posted by dg at 4:08 PM on July 13, 2023
If I were Cam, I would be uncomfortable with assisting Dave in his cocaine habit, but I wouldn't judge anyone who considered (eg) it better to help Dave because the alternative way of getting his cocaine may be more dangerous to Dave.
posted by dg at 4:08 PM on July 13, 2023
Do I find the scam ethically wrong? Yes. Legally problematic on several levels, too.
Relatively small potatoes having an addiction, but the other cumulative societal effects of feeding an illegal drug trade, and the myriad unseen side effects of servicing this hypothetical(?) black market for baby formula complicate the matter greatly. Most of which are corrosive to society overall, eventually trickling down to even those who are neither involved with addictions or raising infants.
Dave's spidey sense is showing some healthy signs here, I think, even if he can't articulate it. He's is under no obligation to participate, and doesn't really need any specific reason other than he doesn't want to.
I'm wondering how responses would be different if Cam were using his benefits to prop up, say, a profitable trade in loosies, which he parlays into funding an addiction to a different drug of choice, beer. The nature of the black market is changed, as is the legality of the drug. This is still pretty small potatoes, but how does Dave treat it?
posted by 2N2222 at 6:01 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Relatively small potatoes having an addiction, but the other cumulative societal effects of feeding an illegal drug trade, and the myriad unseen side effects of servicing this hypothetical(?) black market for baby formula complicate the matter greatly. Most of which are corrosive to society overall, eventually trickling down to even those who are neither involved with addictions or raising infants.
Dave's spidey sense is showing some healthy signs here, I think, even if he can't articulate it. He's is under no obligation to participate, and doesn't really need any specific reason other than he doesn't want to.
I'm wondering how responses would be different if Cam were using his benefits to prop up, say, a profitable trade in loosies, which he parlays into funding an addiction to a different drug of choice, beer. The nature of the black market is changed, as is the legality of the drug. This is still pretty small potatoes, but how does Dave treat it?
posted by 2N2222 at 6:01 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
If the driving around is the obstacle, Dave could cut out the middleman and pay Cam to buy him the groceries he wants at the same rate he’s getting from the grocer. Thinking about this is also a way for Dave to clarify his concerns.
Personally, I’m mostly annoyed with the shopkeeper in this situation. If Cam connected directly with people who need formula, he’d probably get a better cut and some kids would possibly get better nutrition. Another thought experiment for Dave, probably.
posted by momus_window at 8:55 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Personally, I’m mostly annoyed with the shopkeeper in this situation. If Cam connected directly with people who need formula, he’d probably get a better cut and some kids would possibly get better nutrition. Another thought experiment for Dave, probably.
posted by momus_window at 8:55 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, getting food stamps and going to the food pantry isn’t a crime, lots of people need both to feed their families. People who spend all their money on addiction should still be able to eat, that’s a really low bar for a wealthy society with a lot of wasted food to clear.
posted by momus_window at 9:05 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by momus_window at 9:05 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Seems mildly ethically shady, but no more so than what all of us as first-worlders engage in day to day in some form or another.
posted by Rykey at 8:14 AM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Rykey at 8:14 AM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tells me a lot that the store owner is the other state is looking for baby formula. Why not a pallet of canned beans? Hard-to-find energy drink flavors? Dry pasta?
With emd3737 on this. Dave and Cam and the out-of-state store owner aren't responsible for the problem. But makes sense to me if Dave wants to stay out of it.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:09 PM on July 15, 2023
With emd3737 on this. Dave and Cam and the out-of-state store owner aren't responsible for the problem. But makes sense to me if Dave wants to stay out of it.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:09 PM on July 15, 2023
Strange how cocaine addiction (which has been proven to have large external negative economic, mental, environmental effects on society) is considered morally acceptable to commit fraud for, perhaps from some privileged North American perspectives. But if Cam had a status, anxiety, or power addiction and was trading his benefits in order to amass a collection of say, cars, guns, or luxury watches, my guess is people would feel differently about said fraud and not twist themselves in knots to define what fraud is or isn't.
Because let's be clear: this is benefit fraud of the system, not a "survival" hustle, and the reason why Dave's spidery sense is tingling, is because he knows it's wrong, however small. Even if other people commit worse fraud each day.
If Dave wants to help and not enable Cam, he can say, "You are my friend and I want to support you, but I am not going to drive you to help you commit benefit fraud, especially when it goes towards your party/ guns/ luxury watches/ car habit (mentally delete as appropriate, whichever option doesn't trigger cultural tribe reflex)."
posted by moiraine at 9:44 AM on July 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Because let's be clear: this is benefit fraud of the system, not a "survival" hustle, and the reason why Dave's spidery sense is tingling, is because he knows it's wrong, however small. Even if other people commit worse fraud each day.
If Dave wants to help and not enable Cam, he can say, "You are my friend and I want to support you, but I am not going to drive you to help you commit benefit fraud, especially when it goes towards your party/ guns/ luxury watches/ car habit (mentally delete as appropriate, whichever option doesn't trigger cultural tribe reflex)."
posted by moiraine at 9:44 AM on July 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
If Dave is unconcerned about Cam's drug use, then there's no issue here. What if, for example, Cam spends the money on video games or sporting events, which some people consider a "waste of money"? It's Cam's money, he's not hurting anyone, so ethically Dave is in the clear.
What's Dave's cut in this, by the way? Does Cam reimburse him for his time, his gas?
posted by SPrintF at 8:00 AM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]