Border cities
June 22, 2023 1:10 AM Subscribe
I am interested to know or read about any border cities, which exist on both sides of an international border, but where there is little or nothing to control movement of citizens from one side to the other. Where, for example, someone can walk down the street and suddenly be in another country. What's it like to live there, to work, to socialise, to interact with both Governments?
The world is full of cities on borders where there is a wall or a fence, with passport controls, customs checks and so on. Rather than cities like El Paso/Ciudad Juarez, or the formerly divided Berlin, I'm interested in the reverse.
The world is full of cities on borders where there is a wall or a fence, with passport controls, customs checks and so on. Rather than cities like El Paso/Ciudad Juarez, or the formerly divided Berlin, I'm interested in the reverse.
Best answer: So, actually, the Berlin Wall went up in 1961. Before that, at different times, travel between occupied zones could be more or less seamless. In fact, when the wall went up, students and other people were suprise-trapped on one side or the other. I believe it was similar in occupied Vienna, although I think I am basing that on the Third Man.
Another place to look might be accounts of Dutch and Belgian exclaves, like Baarle-Nassau. These are the result of the Duke of Brabant's lands being non-contiguous, I believe.
posted by dame at 2:22 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Another place to look might be accounts of Dutch and Belgian exclaves, like Baarle-Nassau. These are the result of the Duke of Brabant's lands being non-contiguous, I believe.
posted by dame at 2:22 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: When I visited Baarle {Nassau|Hertog} in 1979, the intercalated towns mandated such subtle way-finders as having house numbers on authorised plaques in the tricolor colours of the correct country. The convention being that the front door of the house would dictate where the owners should pay their taxes: because the border(s) went through several houses. For the handful of cases where the border bisected the door, the occupants could choose. From Google images, it is clear that the authorities have since decided to deface their streetscape with huge white crosses in the roadways marking the border and large tiles marked NL or B at intervals. Bureaucrats must feel they have to make such things obvious because they can't spell nuance, even though it is the same word in English, French and Flemish.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:30 AM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:30 AM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is a novel by China Melville 'the city and the city', that dramatises exactly that.
posted by slimeline at 3:06 AM on June 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by slimeline at 3:06 AM on June 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
Best answer: The Poland-Germant border could be an interesting case study. The border was artificially moved west to the Oder after World War II, forcing mass population movements of both Germans and Poles and dividing existing cities that straddled the river (and let's be honest, in some cases Poland hadn't owned that territory in seven centuries, it was a line on the map exercise to punish Germany and give Poles room to relocate because the Soviet Union wanted to nick Poland's eastern reaches, as they judged Lithuanians, Belarusians and Ukrainians more prone to colonisation since they had been colonised by Poland before). Frankfurt am Oder and Słubice are one big example, another is Görlitz and Zgorzelec, as well as Guben and Gubin. Even before Poland's entry into Schengen in 2007 the Frankfurt Viadrina university had a college in Słubice, and since the free movement people have spread out gradually - housing is cheaper in Germany (and the social support net better), food is cheaper in Poland, healthcare in Germany pays better but private dentistry is both cheaper and better in Poland. The divided cities cooperate in various festivals. The different currencies get in the way a bit, but most places take cards anyway.
I haven't lived there, but I visited them and Cieszyn (same case except Czechia border since 1920). Nearly everyone is functionally familiar with the other language, it's just that on the other side of the river they speak funny and have slightly different food. Fairly seamless, like going into a Chinatown.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 3:09 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't lived there, but I visited them and Cieszyn (same case except Czechia border since 1920). Nearly everyone is functionally familiar with the other language, it's just that on the other side of the river they speak funny and have slightly different food. Fairly seamless, like going into a Chinatown.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 3:09 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Look up the Euroregions (the Meuse-Rhine Euroregion is one of the oldest), which are all about cross-border cooperation. There's a Euregio ticket for unlimited travel on public transport in the zone, for instance. There are also special rules for cross-border workers in the EU in general; some workers move a few kilometers across the border because it's in their favor tax-wise.
In Belgium, people near the French border drive there for groceries ("cheaper bottled water" was one I heard a lot). People near the Luxembourgish border drive there to fill their tanks and buy booze and cigarettes, while the Luxemburgers drive to the Ikea in Arlon. Some of my friends drive to Aachen in Germany on weekends for their ice cream fix. Basically you first notice that the road signs and markings are different, then the architecture, and once you run into people, they may be speaking a different language. Otherwise, it's pretty seamless.
That said, if you're driving, better look up the names of cities in different languages. They change on signs depending on who's in charge of that section, and you'd get hopelessly lost if you didn't know that Aken/Aix-la-Chapelle/Aachen are three names for the same city. Ditto Bergen/Mons, Lille/Rijsel, Doornik/Tournai.
For long-haul international flights, many Belgian residents just fly out of either Schiphol near Amsterdam or Roissy-Charles de Gaulle near Paris; there are more offers, better prices, and both are close enough to be just a couple of hours away by train.
A lot of folks working in Geneva live across the border in France where it's cheaper. Since Switzerland is non-EU, a friend told me that there are frequent border checks to make sure you're not bringing in more than a kilo of meat, the cap for duty-free imports!
The Rhine river marks the Swiss-Austrian border at Lake Constance. Just cross the bridge and you're in a different country. Or go for a walk in a nature reserve, walk through a door, and find yourself in a different country. The low-key headaches are currency (less of a problem because of electronic payments) and mobile phone operators; if your EU-network phone switches to a Swiss operator without you noticing, you can end up with a very hefty bill since they're not covered by EU roaming laws. Austrians grumble that the Swiss are jacking up real estate and restaurant prices on their side of the border.
posted by pendrift at 3:25 AM on June 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
In Belgium, people near the French border drive there for groceries ("cheaper bottled water" was one I heard a lot). People near the Luxembourgish border drive there to fill their tanks and buy booze and cigarettes, while the Luxemburgers drive to the Ikea in Arlon. Some of my friends drive to Aachen in Germany on weekends for their ice cream fix. Basically you first notice that the road signs and markings are different, then the architecture, and once you run into people, they may be speaking a different language. Otherwise, it's pretty seamless.
That said, if you're driving, better look up the names of cities in different languages. They change on signs depending on who's in charge of that section, and you'd get hopelessly lost if you didn't know that Aken/Aix-la-Chapelle/Aachen are three names for the same city. Ditto Bergen/Mons, Lille/Rijsel, Doornik/Tournai.
For long-haul international flights, many Belgian residents just fly out of either Schiphol near Amsterdam or Roissy-Charles de Gaulle near Paris; there are more offers, better prices, and both are close enough to be just a couple of hours away by train.
A lot of folks working in Geneva live across the border in France where it's cheaper. Since Switzerland is non-EU, a friend told me that there are frequent border checks to make sure you're not bringing in more than a kilo of meat, the cap for duty-free imports!
The Rhine river marks the Swiss-Austrian border at Lake Constance. Just cross the bridge and you're in a different country. Or go for a walk in a nature reserve, walk through a door, and find yourself in a different country. The low-key headaches are currency (less of a problem because of electronic payments) and mobile phone operators; if your EU-network phone switches to a Swiss operator without you noticing, you can end up with a very hefty bill since they're not covered by EU roaming laws. Austrians grumble that the Swiss are jacking up real estate and restaurant prices on their side of the border.
posted by pendrift at 3:25 AM on June 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: There are endless border towns in Ireland/Northern Ireland. There are definitely houses and farms with a border through the middle. Because of the topography, there's a highway that winds from NI to Ireland to NI to Ireland and then back to NI. As mentioned in that Wikipedia article, Puckoon is both a novel and a film.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:46 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 3:46 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Can you clarify to what extent the Schengen Zone is an answer/non-answer? Obviously it's easier to cross uncontrolled borders to run an errand, but people routinely cross the US/Mexico and US/Canada borders to work and shop and go to airports and whatever else. (I assume this is true of most controlled borders with a nearby population center, I just happen to have known people on the US border.)
Are you looking for oddities like the library in Vermont where the library is literally on the border?
posted by hoyland at 4:09 AM on June 22, 2023
Are you looking for oddities like the library in Vermont where the library is literally on the border?
posted by hoyland at 4:09 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: Tornio in Finland and Haparanda in Sweden are one metropolitan area and have been cooperating extensively for decades. Here’s an article with an overview and here’s their shared tourist website.
posted by Kattullus at 4:30 AM on June 22, 2023
posted by Kattullus at 4:30 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: Baarle's been mentioned already, but an interesting addendum to the "one establishment, two governments" detail: at various times, the Netherlands have had stricter rules on alcohol-sales times than Belgium, and patrons in cafés and restaurants (Den Engel is apparently the most famously border-straddling) would have to physically relocate within the building after Dutch last-call.
But there's a lot more to being under a government than drinking hours. For instance, I don't know how Den Engel figures out sales taxes (property and business taxes I assume work by a predetermined fixed split; income taxes by the citizenship and residency of individual employees). I suppose it's entirely possible they keep a tally of where each table physically is at any given time to figure out which government the VAT on that particular receipt goes to.
posted by jackbishop at 4:31 AM on June 22, 2023
But there's a lot more to being under a government than drinking hours. For instance, I don't know how Den Engel figures out sales taxes (property and business taxes I assume work by a predetermined fixed split; income taxes by the citizenship and residency of individual employees). I suppose it's entirely possible they keep a tally of where each table physically is at any given time to figure out which government the VAT on that particular receipt goes to.
posted by jackbishop at 4:31 AM on June 22, 2023
Response by poster: With respect to clarifying: I live in Australia and international borders for us are a matter of, in every possible direction, large amounts of money, very strict passport and border controls, and long flights. I’m interested in the experiences of people for whom that’s not the case.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:49 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:49 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: There are endless border towns in Ireland/Northern Ireland.
I live in one (Dundalk) and occasionally visit the nearest city over the border (Newry). The distance between is less than 20km as the crow flies, but the experiential distinctions are very real.
posted by macdara at 5:42 AM on June 22, 2023
I live in one (Dundalk) and occasionally visit the nearest city over the border (Newry). The distance between is less than 20km as the crow flies, but the experiential distinctions are very real.
posted by macdara at 5:42 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: Valga/Valka spans the Estonian/Latvian border and has no border controls. Here’s an article about it but you can probably find more with some googling, it’s been written about quite a lot, I think.
posted by penguin pie at 5:53 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by penguin pie at 5:53 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You might find this book about life on the Quebec-Vermont border interesting.
posted by bluefrog at 6:11 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bluefrog at 6:11 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: pendrift: Basically you first notice that the road signs and markings are different,
Road quality. Crossing into Belgium when traveling to Luxembourg from the Netherlands, and back, I really appreciated the ample suspension travel my allroad motorcycle offers.
To answer the original question: staying within the Schengen area and the Eurozone you only notice some superficial things like road signs, the general architecture and the language, even where the latter tends to have a kind of continuum near the borders.
Actual cities/villages that I know which have this "people across the road are living in a different country": Dinxperlo/Süderwick, and Kerkrade/Herzogenrath-Strass. There was a case at the start of the pandemic near where we live, where a couple of houses in the Netherlands had the exit from their front garden in Germany (how that ever came to be I have no idea) and so were subject to border crossing quarantine rules unless they left via their back door every time.
posted by Stoneshop at 6:12 AM on June 22, 2023
Road quality. Crossing into Belgium when traveling to Luxembourg from the Netherlands, and back, I really appreciated the ample suspension travel my allroad motorcycle offers.
To answer the original question: staying within the Schengen area and the Eurozone you only notice some superficial things like road signs, the general architecture and the language, even where the latter tends to have a kind of continuum near the borders.
Actual cities/villages that I know which have this "people across the road are living in a different country": Dinxperlo/Süderwick, and Kerkrade/Herzogenrath-Strass. There was a case at the start of the pandemic near where we live, where a couple of houses in the Netherlands had the exit from their front garden in Germany (how that ever came to be I have no idea) and so were subject to border crossing quarantine rules unless they left via their back door every time.
posted by Stoneshop at 6:12 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: I live in the U.S. near the Canadian border. It does have checkpoints/border patrol and is highly controlled, but I'll just chime in because the experience of locals seems to fit what you're wondering about.
If you only have a passport, then driving across the border means waiting in a line of cars, pulling up to the border patrol booth, answering a bunch of questions about your trip, etc. But you can also apply for a Nexus pass, which requires a background check, fingerprinting, and a short interview with both American and Canadian border patrol. Once you have that card, you can drive through the border in a special lane that usually has little to no wait, and the BP asks fewer questions, so it's pretty fast and easy to cross.
I know people that live in Canada and work in the US and this is their daily commute. People also regularly cross to go shopping - you just have to keep in mind what you can't transport across (fruits, poultry, etc). I have friends across the border and we meet up regularly to socialize, hike, whatever. For example, last weekend I went up to Canada twice - once to meet up with friends and shop, and once to go to a local park to wander around. It's pretty typical to see Canadian license plates in the US, and vice versa in my area. Other than each group thinking the other group drives terribly (and it being true about both groups), it's mostly goodwill towards each other and an acknowledgement that our economies are interdependent. The two areas feel fairly similar culturally, though theres a currency exchange rate and different measuring system (metric vs imperial).
So, still a controlled border for sure, but one that's crossed by citizens of both countries quite easily/frequently - hope that aligns with what you were looking for!
posted by carlypennylane at 6:16 AM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
If you only have a passport, then driving across the border means waiting in a line of cars, pulling up to the border patrol booth, answering a bunch of questions about your trip, etc. But you can also apply for a Nexus pass, which requires a background check, fingerprinting, and a short interview with both American and Canadian border patrol. Once you have that card, you can drive through the border in a special lane that usually has little to no wait, and the BP asks fewer questions, so it's pretty fast and easy to cross.
I know people that live in Canada and work in the US and this is their daily commute. People also regularly cross to go shopping - you just have to keep in mind what you can't transport across (fruits, poultry, etc). I have friends across the border and we meet up regularly to socialize, hike, whatever. For example, last weekend I went up to Canada twice - once to meet up with friends and shop, and once to go to a local park to wander around. It's pretty typical to see Canadian license plates in the US, and vice versa in my area. Other than each group thinking the other group drives terribly (and it being true about both groups), it's mostly goodwill towards each other and an acknowledgement that our economies are interdependent. The two areas feel fairly similar culturally, though theres a currency exchange rate and different measuring system (metric vs imperial).
So, still a controlled border for sure, but one that's crossed by citizens of both countries quite easily/frequently - hope that aligns with what you were looking for!
posted by carlypennylane at 6:16 AM on June 22, 2023 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Konstanz, Germany is a good example. You can walk across the border and be in Kreuzlingen, Switzerland.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 6:52 AM on June 22, 2023
posted by kinddieserzeit at 6:52 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: Switzerland is part of Schengen but not part of the EU Customs Union, which means that there can be additional weirdness around the border. For example you can get a "domestic flight" to Geneva Airport from France, and leave the airport directly to France, and not have to go through Swiss customs. (Immigration doesn't apply because of Schengen) Something similar also applies at Basel-Mulhouse-Freiburg EuroAirport - it's in France, but you can exit directly to Switzerland and skip French customs.
Similarly Basel Bad train station is officially an enclave of Germany within Switzerland. Officially you cross the "border" somewhere in the tunnel between the main hall (the shops/restaurants are still Swiss) and the platforms. There are sometimes even customs checks there.
Generally within Schengen though, you can just walk down a road, cross a bridge, get a train etc. to another country almost without realising. Usually your phone will ping you to let you know that you're now roaming, and some things will be subtly different - street names might change languages, signs will change, some laws might change, etc. (But some of these can change within a country too - I've got on a train to Anvers in Brussels, but got out at Antwerpen, for example!)
posted by scorbet at 6:58 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Similarly Basel Bad train station is officially an enclave of Germany within Switzerland. Officially you cross the "border" somewhere in the tunnel between the main hall (the shops/restaurants are still Swiss) and the platforms. There are sometimes even customs checks there.
Generally within Schengen though, you can just walk down a road, cross a bridge, get a train etc. to another country almost without realising. Usually your phone will ping you to let you know that you're now roaming, and some things will be subtly different - street names might change languages, signs will change, some laws might change, etc. (But some of these can change within a country too - I've got on a train to Anvers in Brussels, but got out at Antwerpen, for example!)
posted by scorbet at 6:58 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The border between Mexico and El Paso used to be pretty seamless, in the '80s and '90s. The drinking age in Mexico was lower, and kids regularly went to Mexico to go drinking at 16. There are still places in NM, TX, AZ where the Mexico border is a piddly little river, though they are pretty remote. Privately owned ranch land cuts between much of it - hence why people don't want a giant wall built in the middle of their property.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:26 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:26 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: There's a few of these across the US/Canada border, and although they might have tighter controls than what you're asking for, they're much more relaxed than the "normal" border crossings. The one I can think of offhand is Hyder–Stewart between BC and Alaska. IIRC, you only need to check in when coming back into Canada. And then there's Point Roberts, WA, which can only be accessed via land via BC. There's an oficial border crossing, but it's pretty chill most of the time because the only way to get to the US mainland from Point Roberts is by boat and most of your modern amenities are only available in the BC city of Tsawwassen. The pandemic border closures hit these places hard and Pt Bob (the colloquial name for Point Roberts) is still suffering because of some employment laws that were softened due to their unique situation3 were tightened back up during the pandemic and have yet to return to their previous state.
posted by cgg at 7:38 AM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cgg at 7:38 AM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Yes, like scorbet mentions, within Belguim itself you cross internal language and local government borders and I always enjoy it. The train changes what language it's speaking! Within Brussels the street signs are all bilingual and the name of the metro stop depends on which sign you are looking at. Likewise in Basel, I once enjoyed watching the bartender at a cafe decide which language to speak to whoever walked up.
Anyways, as someone who moved from the US, which is more Australia like (not entirely, of course) to Europe, I have always enjoyed how the porousness of borders points up their arbitrariness.
posted by dame at 7:39 AM on June 22, 2023
Anyways, as someone who moved from the US, which is more Australia like (not entirely, of course) to Europe, I have always enjoyed how the porousness of borders points up their arbitrariness.
posted by dame at 7:39 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: Similar to carlypennylane, I used to live near the US/Canada border. I grew up in western New York near Buffalo. A classmate lived in Niagara Falls, Canada and commuted with her mother across the border every day. I haven’t lived there in years but the drinking age in Ontario was 19 so bars in NF were popular destinations in college. Toronto was the closest big city so we went there on school trips or to see theatre or museums. Walking across the border was relatively painless. I know friends who had unpleasant experiences with border patrol but I didn’t.
I don’t know specifics but there’s a contingent of Buffalo Bills fans in Canada who cross the border for game days (some are season ticket holders). Likewise hockey games against the Toronto Maple Leafs in Buffalo had a lot of visitors in attendance. And the big malls often had shoppers from Canada visit on the weekends. I grew up thinking fondly about our neighbors to the north.
posted by kat518 at 8:17 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t know specifics but there’s a contingent of Buffalo Bills fans in Canada who cross the border for game days (some are season ticket holders). Likewise hockey games against the Toronto Maple Leafs in Buffalo had a lot of visitors in attendance. And the big malls often had shoppers from Canada visit on the weekends. I grew up thinking fondly about our neighbors to the north.
posted by kat518 at 8:17 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Aussie here just briefly chiming in that our border with PNG near the Torres Strait is able to be crossed with a tinny - something that blew my mind a little as a Victorian!
posted by freethefeet at 9:33 AM on June 22, 2023
posted by freethefeet at 9:33 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: Basle has been mentioned. I have occasion to go there for work regularly and my client is right by the French border. You just keep driving and the street sign informs you you’re in France now. If you then turn left again the sign doesn’t even mention Switzerland, just the canton.This is in a business park.
The routes more relevant for shopping do have a border post and sometimes border agents. They ask what you’re bringing back to Switzerland to make sure you’re not abusing the cheaper prices in Germany and France too much but nobody wants to see ID. They just care if you’re bringing back too much meat or booze. And the vast majority of the time they just wave you through.
Most online shopping from the EU to Switzerland is really expensive because they add exorbitant delivery charges to complete customs declarations and such. And many sellers won’t ship to Switzerland. So across the border in Germany there are numerous service addresses that will take delivery for you and store your parcels until you have time to collect them…for a small fee. These places do booming business. Paying them a couple of Euros per parcel is still cheaper than the exorbitant delivery charges.
For flights from non Schengen countries the Basle airport functions much like the one in Geneva seems to. You have a long corridor and at the end there are two immigration booths/border agents, one for Switzerland and one for France. You’re meant to pick the correct queue but as the French queue was always shorter I always picked that one. Once you’re past immigration everybody is back in the same baggage claim area and is free to exit the airport into either country.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:40 AM on June 22, 2023
The routes more relevant for shopping do have a border post and sometimes border agents. They ask what you’re bringing back to Switzerland to make sure you’re not abusing the cheaper prices in Germany and France too much but nobody wants to see ID. They just care if you’re bringing back too much meat or booze. And the vast majority of the time they just wave you through.
Most online shopping from the EU to Switzerland is really expensive because they add exorbitant delivery charges to complete customs declarations and such. And many sellers won’t ship to Switzerland. So across the border in Germany there are numerous service addresses that will take delivery for you and store your parcels until you have time to collect them…for a small fee. These places do booming business. Paying them a couple of Euros per parcel is still cheaper than the exorbitant delivery charges.
For flights from non Schengen countries the Basle airport functions much like the one in Geneva seems to. You have a long corridor and at the end there are two immigration booths/border agents, one for Switzerland and one for France. You’re meant to pick the correct queue but as the French queue was always shorter I always picked that one. Once you’re past immigration everybody is back in the same baggage claim area and is free to exit the airport into either country.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:40 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: Forgot to add that there are of course countless buses, trams and trains that serve the border areas and they don’t just stop and make you walk across the border to board another service in the other country. They just keep going and the transport firms sort it out between them. There’s a direct train from Zurich to Hamburg and to Paris and to Milan.
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:44 AM on June 22, 2023
posted by koahiatamadl at 9:44 AM on June 22, 2023
Best answer: I met a guy from Strasbourg the other day, he had some very bitter* things to say about the area and his experience as an ethnic German there. So ah I guess that's a data point to suggest that life in a cross-border area - even with one with kum-ba-ya EU aspirations - with that kind of history, is not all friendly handshakes and multicultural puppies.
*(bruh)
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:43 PM on June 22, 2023
*(bruh)
posted by fingersandtoes at 12:43 PM on June 22, 2023
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posted by poxandplague at 1:39 AM on June 22, 2023 [3 favorites]