Alcohol versus oil based cannabis tinctures
May 17, 2023 4:15 AM Subscribe
Why is the effect of my homemade cannabis tincture so different from the store bought one?
(If anyone still cares, it's legal where I live. I just go into a store and buy it. It's insane. I'm Gen X so I'll never get over the weirdness of that.)
I made a cannabis tincture based in Bacardi 121 (or whatever it is). I buy flower, decarb it, grind it, mix it, let it sit for a month, strain, and it's great. I take it at bedtime and I have meticulously done the math based on dosage and strength.
It is roughly the same as this stuff in terms of strength and dosage, and I've bought and used the Wishing Well tincture in the past.
I take 3-5 mg of either, but they are experienced quite differently. The one I make has the effect of powerful chamomile tea. It takes effect pretty quickly (an hour) and then is smooth all night long. I don't precisely feel stoned, just very relaxed and content and sleepy. I feel great in the morning, no grogginess or anything. It feels like it works all night.
With the other, it takes longer to work, but sometimes I'll wake up to pee or something and feel stoned--it just seems more peak and valley than slow release.
The store-bought tincture, which actually tastes pleasant, you take a few drops sublingually.
I could make my homemade one taste less gross but when it's in a glass of water you barely notice it so I don't bother.
Is there something in the nature of how alcohol versus oil are processed in the body or how I take these that effects how they work? The homemade one I take 1/8 to 1/16 of a teaspoon in a full glass of water right before bed.
Is this a science question or just 'drugs/bodies are weird'?
(If anyone still cares, it's legal where I live. I just go into a store and buy it. It's insane. I'm Gen X so I'll never get over the weirdness of that.)
I made a cannabis tincture based in Bacardi 121 (or whatever it is). I buy flower, decarb it, grind it, mix it, let it sit for a month, strain, and it's great. I take it at bedtime and I have meticulously done the math based on dosage and strength.
It is roughly the same as this stuff in terms of strength and dosage, and I've bought and used the Wishing Well tincture in the past.
I take 3-5 mg of either, but they are experienced quite differently. The one I make has the effect of powerful chamomile tea. It takes effect pretty quickly (an hour) and then is smooth all night long. I don't precisely feel stoned, just very relaxed and content and sleepy. I feel great in the morning, no grogginess or anything. It feels like it works all night.
With the other, it takes longer to work, but sometimes I'll wake up to pee or something and feel stoned--it just seems more peak and valley than slow release.
The store-bought tincture, which actually tastes pleasant, you take a few drops sublingually.
I could make my homemade one taste less gross but when it's in a glass of water you barely notice it so I don't bother.
Is there something in the nature of how alcohol versus oil are processed in the body or how I take these that effects how they work? The homemade one I take 1/8 to 1/16 of a teaspoon in a full glass of water right before bed.
Is this a science question or just 'drugs/bodies are weird'?
I've been researching this in preparation for making my own homemade tincture. My understanding is that cannabinoid content is really complex and super hard to standardize! Even if you do the math perfectly, it's a plant product and will have different ratios of thc/cbd depending on harvest, processing, strain, etc, such that even professional sellers in my state can't accurately report thc%.
Then you have factors like the tincturing process itself - length of time of infusion, filtering, type of alcohol, any extra processing.
And extraction in alcohol vs. oil is yet another wrinkle added to the above. It's like asking "why do my cookies bake differently when I use shortening VS butter?". There's so many factors that influence metabolization of any substance!
Doing the math well will likely prevent you from getting uncomfortably stoned by accident, but otherwise it seems like specific outcomes are affected by a ton of variables.
posted by Knicke at 4:56 AM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Then you have factors like the tincturing process itself - length of time of infusion, filtering, type of alcohol, any extra processing.
And extraction in alcohol vs. oil is yet another wrinkle added to the above. It's like asking "why do my cookies bake differently when I use shortening VS butter?". There's so many factors that influence metabolization of any substance!
Doing the math well will likely prevent you from getting uncomfortably stoned by accident, but otherwise it seems like specific outcomes are affected by a ton of variables.
posted by Knicke at 4:56 AM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
If the effects of cannabis were simple enough to summarize with a single number like some kind of strength or potency rating, there would be no point to the endless amounts of time and effort that have been devoted all over the world to breeding interesting strains.
Having the effects of two different processings of two different strains from two different sources turn out different from one another should be taken as the default expectation, not some kind of anomaly in need of explanation.
If you want repeatability, grow and process your own plants.
posted by flabdablet at 6:57 AM on May 17, 2023
Having the effects of two different processings of two different strains from two different sources turn out different from one another should be taken as the default expectation, not some kind of anomaly in need of explanation.
If you want repeatability, grow and process your own plants.
posted by flabdablet at 6:57 AM on May 17, 2023
I don't know the answer, but I have a similar story from my wife, who uses medical marijuana for back pain and sleeping. She says she gets a much different effect from the gummies she buys than from the powder, even though she takes the same dose of each (they're both high THC and come from an official dispensary). She says the gummies work much better.
posted by alex1965 at 7:17 AM on May 17, 2023
posted by alex1965 at 7:17 AM on May 17, 2023
1) You don't actually know the relative doses (or even the actual cannabinoids involved).
2) You are administering via two different methods.
This should be enough to explain the variance in your experience. The difference between oil and alcohol may in fact be negligible.
posted by grog at 8:59 AM on May 17, 2023
2) You are administering via two different methods.
This should be enough to explain the variance in your experience. The difference between oil and alcohol may in fact be negligible.
posted by grog at 8:59 AM on May 17, 2023
Response by poster: I'll rephrase this: From a scientific standpoint is there a difference between how oil versus alcohol hits the bloodstream/brain/etc?
Yes, I understand that it is complex but believe it's an answerable question although they answer may not be conclusive given an individual set of circumstances.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:11 AM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, I understand that it is complex but believe it's an answerable question although they answer may not be conclusive given an individual set of circumstances.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:11 AM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I would expect oil-carried preparations to come on more slowly than alcohol-carried ones, because oils need to be emulsified before the body's essentially water-based transport systems can move them around at any kind of speed. The first serious emulsifier in the digestive tract is bile, which ingested substances won't encounter until they've gone all the way through the stomach.
posted by flabdablet at 9:40 AM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 9:40 AM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You might care to experiment with pre-emusifying an oil-based preparation by blending it into a smoothie that includes an egg yolk or some other source of lecithin, and see if that makes a difference to the way it comes on.
posted by flabdablet at 9:48 AM on May 17, 2023
posted by flabdablet at 9:48 AM on May 17, 2023
Best answer: From a scientific standpoint is there a difference between how oil versus alcohol hits the bloodstream/brain/etc
yes.
Alcohol (ethanol) is absorbed suuuuper easily, starting while it is still in your mouth. It is a small molecule and easily moves directly into the bloodstream.
Oils are not absorbed so easily. As noted by flabdablet, as they first sit into your stomach, where they are not much affected by the stomach acid, and then they move into the small intestine, where they start to be broken down.
They are two very different liquids and the complex mix of chemicals (THC, CBD, + a million other chemicals in the flower) that you're dissolving will dissolve differently - some compounds will preferentially dissolve in oil, some will prefer to dissolve in alcohol. The two solutions probably contain very different ratios of all the various compounds. Then once each of these different solutions are in your body, the compounds have to leave the oil/alcohol and dissolve instead in your watery bodily fluids, and here again, whether they're in oil or alcohol will make a difference. I'm not surprised you're feeling differences between the two.
posted by Vatnesine at 5:47 PM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
yes.
Alcohol (ethanol) is absorbed suuuuper easily, starting while it is still in your mouth. It is a small molecule and easily moves directly into the bloodstream.
Oils are not absorbed so easily. As noted by flabdablet, as they first sit into your stomach, where they are not much affected by the stomach acid, and then they move into the small intestine, where they start to be broken down.
They are two very different liquids and the complex mix of chemicals (THC, CBD, + a million other chemicals in the flower) that you're dissolving will dissolve differently - some compounds will preferentially dissolve in oil, some will prefer to dissolve in alcohol. The two solutions probably contain very different ratios of all the various compounds. Then once each of these different solutions are in your body, the compounds have to leave the oil/alcohol and dissolve instead in your watery bodily fluids, and here again, whether they're in oil or alcohol will make a difference. I'm not surprised you're feeling differences between the two.
posted by Vatnesine at 5:47 PM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: There's another angle to this that is highly relevant in general for making tinctures, though I know far too little about cannabis to comment on it specifically.
Alcohol and oil are very different solvents: some molecules that will dissolve (and hence be extracted) in alcohol will not dissolve in oil, and vice versa. My guess is that you're simply getting a different mix of solutes in different proportions in your alcohol tincture than you're getting in the oil-extracted one. This is likely to have a far larger effect than how oil versus alcohol hits the bloodstream.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:29 PM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Alcohol and oil are very different solvents: some molecules that will dissolve (and hence be extracted) in alcohol will not dissolve in oil, and vice versa. My guess is that you're simply getting a different mix of solutes in different proportions in your alcohol tincture than you're getting in the oil-extracted one. This is likely to have a far larger effect than how oil versus alcohol hits the bloodstream.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:29 PM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Hang on, I partially take it back: your store-bought tincture reads "Processing type: hydrocarbon or ethanol based", so it may use an alcohol extraction. Nevertheless, the extraction efficiencies (and hence concentration ratios) of the various molecular components of a plant-based tincture are going to depend on the details of the extraction process including temperature, time, and pre-processing. Count yourself fortunate that your method gives you a product that you like better than store-bought!
posted by heatherlogan at 6:35 PM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by heatherlogan at 6:35 PM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: "Processing type: hydrocarbon or ethanol based", so it may use an alcohol extraction.
Right, they do this two-tiered thing which I don't understand because I'm not a manufacturer--but from what I understand they do an extract in alcohol, concentrate it through distillation or evaporation or whatever, then suspend it in oil or glycerin and maybe put a dose of sugar or something in there to make it palatable--but ultimately, the product is labeled with its potency by law, and there's a mathematical formula to calculate the potency for the tincture I'm making (which is derived from store-bought weed which has TACs lab analyzed) and the outcome can be reconciled roughly the same - not in volume, but in calculated dose of active cannabinoids. (There's a formula for this and I'm sorry I don't have the energy to go get it but I'm exhausted because I didn't have my homemade tincture last night and it's this whole story.)
Anyway, it seems like both products stem from the same process but the difference in the suspension they're embedded in makes them processed differently.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:54 PM on May 20, 2023
Right, they do this two-tiered thing which I don't understand because I'm not a manufacturer--but from what I understand they do an extract in alcohol, concentrate it through distillation or evaporation or whatever, then suspend it in oil or glycerin and maybe put a dose of sugar or something in there to make it palatable--but ultimately, the product is labeled with its potency by law, and there's a mathematical formula to calculate the potency for the tincture I'm making (which is derived from store-bought weed which has TACs lab analyzed) and the outcome can be reconciled roughly the same - not in volume, but in calculated dose of active cannabinoids. (There's a formula for this and I'm sorry I don't have the energy to go get it but I'm exhausted because I didn't have my homemade tincture last night and it's this whole story.)
Anyway, it seems like both products stem from the same process but the difference in the suspension they're embedded in makes them processed differently.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 2:54 PM on May 20, 2023
Response by poster: From a scientific standpoint is there a difference between how oil versus alcohol hits the bloodstream/brain/etc
yes.
Thank you!
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:03 PM on May 20, 2023
yes.
Thank you!
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:03 PM on May 20, 2023
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Sublingual absorption is supposed be both faster- and shorter-acting, though I haven't always found that to be the case, personally, and is directly opposed to what you're experiencing.
Generally-speaking, commercial tinctures aren't extracted the way you'd do it at home (by steeping in oil), but rather concentrated and then blended with MCT oil to hit the desired potency. So that could be part of the difference you're experiencing. You should also be aware that Bacardi 151 isn't really strong enough to produce the best tincture (or so I'm told), so it's possible that, if you haven't tested it, your tincture just isn't as potent as you think it is.
Can you try taking your alcohol tincture sublingually and see how it works? You should be able to make it tolerable by mixing it with a small amount of water, although it for-sure will prickle. I usually do this, with about 1mL of water, and then swallow it with a big belt of water after it sits under my tongue for a while.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:56 AM on May 17, 2023 [1 favorite]