I think I want to move to Sweden or Germany. Please advise.
May 7, 2023 3:48 PM Subscribe
Rocket scientist from New Zealand considering two (2) specific job opportunities. One is near Munich, and one is in Swedish Lapland. Both opportunities specify that the workplace is almost entirely Anglophone because the workforce is highly international (not unusual for the field). Which one do I pick?
Assume for the purposes of this question that the substance of both jobs is reasonably similar, I am reasonably likely to get both the job I am in the running for and a suitable work permit, these are the only jobs I am considering, and staying in New Zealand is a nonstarter. Which one do I consider as the better option?
My ancestors are from Sweden and I'm told I look Scandinavian so I don't anticipate facing 'argh foreigner' issues on the same level that POCs do. My Swedish is currently 'exploring' level on Duolingo. My German is 'can buy groceries and find bathroom and use common swears, cannot have actual conversation'. I have spent a week in Germany on vacation as a teenager and found it trying, but that may be because I was with family. I have never been to Sweden or anywhere that it reliably gets below -10 °C during the day.
My partner is firmly attached to New Zealand for the foreseeable future so we would be making it a long-distance relationship, which is something we've done before with no issues. My family are in New Zealand but I don't actually like most of them very much and the ones I do like I don't see often either. Moving to anywhere in Europe would put me physically closer to most of my friends.
I am concerned about adapting to climate both physical and social, finding a religious outlet (I'm a Baptist here, which is different to a Baptist in the US, does either country have anything similar?), adapting to language, and availability and cost of housing and food (primarily vegetarian food). I'm autistic and do quite badly with high-context communication; the German and Swedish coworkers I've had indicate that won't be a problem.
Would really welcome input from anyone who's done a similar relocation.
Assume for the purposes of this question that the substance of both jobs is reasonably similar, I am reasonably likely to get both the job I am in the running for and a suitable work permit, these are the only jobs I am considering, and staying in New Zealand is a nonstarter. Which one do I consider as the better option?
My ancestors are from Sweden and I'm told I look Scandinavian so I don't anticipate facing 'argh foreigner' issues on the same level that POCs do. My Swedish is currently 'exploring' level on Duolingo. My German is 'can buy groceries and find bathroom and use common swears, cannot have actual conversation'. I have spent a week in Germany on vacation as a teenager and found it trying, but that may be because I was with family. I have never been to Sweden or anywhere that it reliably gets below -10 °C during the day.
My partner is firmly attached to New Zealand for the foreseeable future so we would be making it a long-distance relationship, which is something we've done before with no issues. My family are in New Zealand but I don't actually like most of them very much and the ones I do like I don't see often either. Moving to anywhere in Europe would put me physically closer to most of my friends.
I am concerned about adapting to climate both physical and social, finding a religious outlet (I'm a Baptist here, which is different to a Baptist in the US, does either country have anything similar?), adapting to language, and availability and cost of housing and food (primarily vegetarian food). I'm autistic and do quite badly with high-context communication; the German and Swedish coworkers I've had indicate that won't be a problem.
Would really welcome input from anyone who's done a similar relocation.
I mean, I think the obvious choice would be Munich, particularly if part of your LDR plan involves occasional visits - Munich is a major airport, northern Sweden...not so much.
An American couple I'm friends with re-located to Stockholm, and then later moved up to Uppsala for cheaper housing. The hardest thing by far for them to adjust to was the short days in winter - and they'll be even shorter up north. They did find a SAD light + vitamin D helped, and now they have more or less adjusted- they also make a point of traveling every winter for an extended period of time. It's been a great place for them to start a family (Sweden makes it very affordable to do so), and they've seen some breathtaking nature up north. I know at a certain point their immigration status required they learn a certain level of Swedish - I don't know how that compares to Germany, but worth looking into.
posted by coffeecat at 5:29 PM on May 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
An American couple I'm friends with re-located to Stockholm, and then later moved up to Uppsala for cheaper housing. The hardest thing by far for them to adjust to was the short days in winter - and they'll be even shorter up north. They did find a SAD light + vitamin D helped, and now they have more or less adjusted- they also make a point of traveling every winter for an extended period of time. It's been a great place for them to start a family (Sweden makes it very affordable to do so), and they've seen some breathtaking nature up north. I know at a certain point their immigration status required they learn a certain level of Swedish - I don't know how that compares to Germany, but worth looking into.
posted by coffeecat at 5:29 PM on May 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Near Munich. Lots of great things there, vibrant city, The Alps, borders of Switzerland, Austria, Italy, near there, lakes, forest, reasonable winter hours of sunlight. The Hofbrau Haus!
posted by Oyéah at 7:56 PM on May 7, 2023
posted by Oyéah at 7:56 PM on May 7, 2023
Best answer: On paper, Munich has more to offer in terms of what you are looking for than Lapland does:
- it’s more central, so the friends scattered around Europe can get to you more easily (and probably cheaply)
- it’s nearer climates and ecosystems that are more like New Zealand, from alpine peaks and forests to the coasts of the Mediterranean, and is also just warmer and sunnier than anywhere in Sweden
- Bavaria alone has more people than the whole of Sweden
At the same time, though, I would be doing a lot of research and asking a lot of questions about some very specific things you mention that might really vary between the two places/organizations/cultures in ways that would be irrelevant to most other people you’d meet but really matter to you.
These might include things like:
- how vacation and holiday time and budgeting would work, especially if most of your peers and friends are European and can get home in an afternoon on a Ryanair flight when you’d need a couple of days to get back to NZ if you needed or wanted to
- how the national/regional and/or private/corporate medical systems you would be accessing regard autism and treat autistic people, especially if there will be a language barrier that makes communication about any medical care you might seek harder
- how large a flat/house and workable a yard/garden your salary and sunlight would allow you to have, especially if part of your vegetarianism is spending time raising your own food and enjoying time cooking and eating at home
- how practicing your religion could happen in the ways that currently sustain you if you didn’t find a welcoming Anglophone congregation right away, or indeed were unable to find one at all
- whether your partner would ever be able to legally join you there; for example, if their job went remote-only, would they be allowed to reside with you if you both wanted that?
- how your taxation situation would vary between the two places and whether your and your partner’s (joint?) financial life in NZ would factor into that
- if you drive, how easy it would be to convert your NZ driver license to a Swedish/German one in English and without much fuss, especially if the expectation among your peers is that you would both own a car and be able to drive as part of social activities
posted by mdonley at 8:33 PM on May 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
- it’s more central, so the friends scattered around Europe can get to you more easily (and probably cheaply)
- it’s nearer climates and ecosystems that are more like New Zealand, from alpine peaks and forests to the coasts of the Mediterranean, and is also just warmer and sunnier than anywhere in Sweden
- Bavaria alone has more people than the whole of Sweden
At the same time, though, I would be doing a lot of research and asking a lot of questions about some very specific things you mention that might really vary between the two places/organizations/cultures in ways that would be irrelevant to most other people you’d meet but really matter to you.
These might include things like:
- how vacation and holiday time and budgeting would work, especially if most of your peers and friends are European and can get home in an afternoon on a Ryanair flight when you’d need a couple of days to get back to NZ if you needed or wanted to
- how the national/regional and/or private/corporate medical systems you would be accessing regard autism and treat autistic people, especially if there will be a language barrier that makes communication about any medical care you might seek harder
- how large a flat/house and workable a yard/garden your salary and sunlight would allow you to have, especially if part of your vegetarianism is spending time raising your own food and enjoying time cooking and eating at home
- how practicing your religion could happen in the ways that currently sustain you if you didn’t find a welcoming Anglophone congregation right away, or indeed were unable to find one at all
- whether your partner would ever be able to legally join you there; for example, if their job went remote-only, would they be allowed to reside with you if you both wanted that?
- how your taxation situation would vary between the two places and whether your and your partner’s (joint?) financial life in NZ would factor into that
- if you drive, how easy it would be to convert your NZ driver license to a Swedish/German one in English and without much fuss, especially if the expectation among your peers is that you would both own a car and be able to drive as part of social activities
posted by mdonley at 8:33 PM on May 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I might think of some stuff later but
1) Munich is expensive for housing
2) Sweden I don’t think has a language test requirement for citizenship, Germany does (b1) is that something that you would like in the future? Also check how many years you need, I think it’s less in Sweden.
posted by pairofshades at 9:15 PM on May 7, 2023
1) Munich is expensive for housing
2) Sweden I don’t think has a language test requirement for citizenship, Germany does (b1) is that something that you would like in the future? Also check how many years you need, I think it’s less in Sweden.
posted by pairofshades at 9:15 PM on May 7, 2023
I'd also consider things from a job perspective. You mention that the work will be substantively similar. How about colleagues? Will you have the opportunity to work with or meet or make connections with people you might want to work with again at some other location in the future?
posted by lulu68 at 10:53 PM on May 7, 2023
posted by lulu68 at 10:53 PM on May 7, 2023
I'm autistic and do quite badly with high-context communication; the German and Swedish coworkers I've had indicate that won't be a problem.
In my experience, there is a lot more reading between the lines and conflict avoidance in Sweden than in Germany, much higher context communication. On the plus side, people are expected to regulate their emotional expression more than in Bavaria and interactions will usually be low in affect. In your shoes I’d try to find expats in the respective areas to get some perspectives on what they found to be a problem (or advantage) that may not be perceived as such by someone that grew up there.
posted by meijusa at 1:07 AM on May 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
In my experience, there is a lot more reading between the lines and conflict avoidance in Sweden than in Germany, much higher context communication. On the plus side, people are expected to regulate their emotional expression more than in Bavaria and interactions will usually be low in affect. In your shoes I’d try to find expats in the respective areas to get some perspectives on what they found to be a problem (or advantage) that may not be perceived as such by someone that grew up there.
posted by meijusa at 1:07 AM on May 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Lapland pros: Wonderful nature. Cheap housing. Good healthcare. There is a Baptist church in Luleå, but I don't know about other places. However the Lutheran church in Sweden is not very different from the Baptist church.
Lapland cons: VERY dark and cold winters. The cold isn't too bad, but most people find the dark very hard to handle. VERY far from most things in the rest of the world. There is only 100 km more from Stockholm to Berlin than from Stockholm to Luleå. And the connections are not as good. Vegetarian options are few (partly depending on where you are in Lapland, which is huge), because of the climate, and vegetables are expensive in stores for the same reason.
Disclaimer: I have not been to Lapland, this information is from my brother, who goes hiking there, and a friend who grew up there.
Munich pros: Wonderful nature. Good healthcare. Amazing cultural offers. Great food options, both in restaurants and markets. There is a Baptist church in Munich. Really good connections to all of Europe and the rest of the world. You won't need a car.
Munich cons: Expensive housing. It's a really big city, with all the noise etc., though I have visited some really nice and quiet garden homes, even very close to the center. With all human traits, I feel the good and the bad are the same thing. I can find it a bit overwhelming that Germans in general and Bavarians in particular are very direct and in your face. But that also means they are very open and easy to meet.
If I were you, I would go for Munich with no doubt, but I'm not you. If it helps, a big part of my choice would be the availability of good, fresh produce there, because food plays a huge part in my life and I need vegetables. I also really like the cultural offerings in Munich, there are many great museums and an opera, if you like that. I really want to go to Lapland, to see the midnight sun and the Northern lights and the extraordinary nature, but there are so many different options from a base in Munich: you can easily spend a weekend in the Alps, or in Venice, or in Prague, as well as all the interesting places to see in Bavaria. Whereas in Lapland, you have to travel quite far to see anything else than Lapland.
In both places, younger people speak good English, thanks to streaming services and other things on the internet. Older people, not so much. There will be expat communities, but church services might not be in English.
posted by mumimor at 3:01 AM on May 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Lapland cons: VERY dark and cold winters. The cold isn't too bad, but most people find the dark very hard to handle. VERY far from most things in the rest of the world. There is only 100 km more from Stockholm to Berlin than from Stockholm to Luleå. And the connections are not as good. Vegetarian options are few (partly depending on where you are in Lapland, which is huge), because of the climate, and vegetables are expensive in stores for the same reason.
Disclaimer: I have not been to Lapland, this information is from my brother, who goes hiking there, and a friend who grew up there.
Munich pros: Wonderful nature. Good healthcare. Amazing cultural offers. Great food options, both in restaurants and markets. There is a Baptist church in Munich. Really good connections to all of Europe and the rest of the world. You won't need a car.
Munich cons: Expensive housing. It's a really big city, with all the noise etc., though I have visited some really nice and quiet garden homes, even very close to the center. With all human traits, I feel the good and the bad are the same thing. I can find it a bit overwhelming that Germans in general and Bavarians in particular are very direct and in your face. But that also means they are very open and easy to meet.
If I were you, I would go for Munich with no doubt, but I'm not you. If it helps, a big part of my choice would be the availability of good, fresh produce there, because food plays a huge part in my life and I need vegetables. I also really like the cultural offerings in Munich, there are many great museums and an opera, if you like that. I really want to go to Lapland, to see the midnight sun and the Northern lights and the extraordinary nature, but there are so many different options from a base in Munich: you can easily spend a weekend in the Alps, or in Venice, or in Prague, as well as all the interesting places to see in Bavaria. Whereas in Lapland, you have to travel quite far to see anything else than Lapland.
In both places, younger people speak good English, thanks to streaming services and other things on the internet. Older people, not so much. There will be expat communities, but church services might not be in English.
posted by mumimor at 3:01 AM on May 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I moved from the US to Munich almost 5 years ago. My wife and I love it here. Some points:
- vegetarian is super easy. My wife is vegan, and I'm a veg who eats vegan 99.9% of the time. Sometimes we can't find vegan food in restaurants (more often in smaller towns), but there's always something vegetarian.
- SO much nature. There's tons of different things to do outdoors, all year round. And it's beautiful.
- It's a small big city. This may not be a useful reference for you but, I lived in Boston, USA for a very long time. Munich feels very much like Boston to me. But MUCH more safe.
- Housing. I lived in the Bay Area of the US prior to moving here. I took a 40% pay cut moving here, and my cold rent now is about 40% less. (cold rent is base rent. warm rent are costs over and above base rent, like common area cleaning, maintenance, often hot and cold water and groundskeeping services). The actual number can vary widely, depending on the area. Availability is also difficult. It took me 6 months to find the right flat when I last moved. Luckily, my landlord had given me plenty of notice, so it was time I had.
- Transit. I don't have a car, nor do I need one. My bike is my main source for transit. Everything is walkable or bikeable. Sometimes I'll get a car share if I have to pick up a big load of something. I also have a transit pass (a new €49/month Deutschland Pass was just put into place. It covers all local transit, and can get you anywhere in the country, and to some neighbouring foreign cities as well).
- Language. I've been slacking on becoming more fluent. Right now, I'm more of A2 level. If you want to get permanent residency, or citizenship, you will need a B1 eventually. But in general, you could live your life without speaking much, or well; there's a lot of English speakers. But becoming more proficient is generally a good thing. People become more open when they see you trying. I'm partially deaf and and have auditory processing disorder, so I can speak fairly well, but often don't understand what's being said back to me. I rarely see people use hand gestures, or give context clues, so it's extra hard for me.
- Weather is subjective, of course. I don't know the climates in New Zealand to compare to. Summers can be warm (24-26 during the day). The hottest I've experienced since living here were 2 days of 39. Winters are pretty mild to me. There will be a few weeks under 0. Snow varies. A single snowfall would be anywhere from 1 - 10cm. Sometimes more.
- There's so much to do outdoors any time of the year.
- Sauna culture is wonderful.
- The prevalence of smoking here is horrifying to me.
I assume you would be working in or near Garching? There's lots of nature there. It's pretty convenient to the airport. The city centre is 20-25 minutes away on the S-Bahn. Housing is generally less expensive around there than in the city.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 7:03 AM on May 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
- vegetarian is super easy. My wife is vegan, and I'm a veg who eats vegan 99.9% of the time. Sometimes we can't find vegan food in restaurants (more often in smaller towns), but there's always something vegetarian.
- SO much nature. There's tons of different things to do outdoors, all year round. And it's beautiful.
- It's a small big city. This may not be a useful reference for you but, I lived in Boston, USA for a very long time. Munich feels very much like Boston to me. But MUCH more safe.
- Housing. I lived in the Bay Area of the US prior to moving here. I took a 40% pay cut moving here, and my cold rent now is about 40% less. (cold rent is base rent. warm rent are costs over and above base rent, like common area cleaning, maintenance, often hot and cold water and groundskeeping services). The actual number can vary widely, depending on the area. Availability is also difficult. It took me 6 months to find the right flat when I last moved. Luckily, my landlord had given me plenty of notice, so it was time I had.
- Transit. I don't have a car, nor do I need one. My bike is my main source for transit. Everything is walkable or bikeable. Sometimes I'll get a car share if I have to pick up a big load of something. I also have a transit pass (a new €49/month Deutschland Pass was just put into place. It covers all local transit, and can get you anywhere in the country, and to some neighbouring foreign cities as well).
- Language. I've been slacking on becoming more fluent. Right now, I'm more of A2 level. If you want to get permanent residency, or citizenship, you will need a B1 eventually. But in general, you could live your life without speaking much, or well; there's a lot of English speakers. But becoming more proficient is generally a good thing. People become more open when they see you trying. I'm partially deaf and and have auditory processing disorder, so I can speak fairly well, but often don't understand what's being said back to me. I rarely see people use hand gestures, or give context clues, so it's extra hard for me.
- Weather is subjective, of course. I don't know the climates in New Zealand to compare to. Summers can be warm (24-26 during the day). The hottest I've experienced since living here were 2 days of 39. Winters are pretty mild to me. There will be a few weeks under 0. Snow varies. A single snowfall would be anywhere from 1 - 10cm. Sometimes more.
- There's so much to do outdoors any time of the year.
- Sauna culture is wonderful.
- The prevalence of smoking here is horrifying to me.
I assume you would be working in or near Garching? There's lots of nature there. It's pretty convenient to the airport. The city centre is 20-25 minutes away on the S-Bahn. Housing is generally less expensive around there than in the city.
posted by Cat Pie Hurts at 7:03 AM on May 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Convenience to the airport is pretty important if you or your long distance partner will travel to see each other more than once a year.
It’s even more important if your job will require travel on a frequent basis. My academic job in Denmark had me flying quite frequently, and I was so thankful the CPH airport was easy, close, and well-connected (both by transit within the city, and to other airports).
posted by nat at 8:12 AM on May 8, 2023
It’s even more important if your job will require travel on a frequent basis. My academic job in Denmark had me flying quite frequently, and I was so thankful the CPH airport was easy, close, and well-connected (both by transit within the city, and to other airports).
posted by nat at 8:12 AM on May 8, 2023
Munich would be much easier from a practical point of view. There are quite a lot of English speakers and it's a modern city with a major airport and rail station. This means you are more likely to find friends or acquaintances. This site lists English language churches in Munich. There are four Baptist or non-denominational churches, and they look like they each have a slightly different niche. The Toytown website is good for giving you a sense of what it's like to move to Germany as an English speaker, particularly to Munich.
posted by plonkee at 10:54 AM on May 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by plonkee at 10:54 AM on May 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: So I am applying for both after all, which was by far the most obvious solution (derp, me). Thanks everyone!
posted by ngaiotonga at 7:09 PM on June 7, 2023
posted by ngaiotonga at 7:09 PM on June 7, 2023
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Is there an issue preventing you from applying for both jobs?
posted by DJWeezy at 5:21 PM on May 7, 2023 [2 favorites]