Nosy New Landlord
March 9, 2023 4:53 PM
[California Filter] I have a new landlord. They want to enter my apartment for unwarranted reasons. I’m struggling with how to assert my rights in a way I won’t regret. Advice welcome.
I have inherited a new landlord for an old apartment. They are new to me and, I presume, new to being a landlord. As a result, they seem to still be figuring out how to landlord. Meanwhile, they want to inspect my apartment. I have asked for clarification and have been told: they want to “inspect the units because they are new to us”. I have asked if there is any specific goal they hope to accomplish and the answer was, essentially, no.
I have researched the topic and it’s very clear that in California, a landlord may enter a tenant’s unit only under very specific circumstances. See here and here. A general inspection is not considered a legitimate reason. I am struggling with how to communicate this in a way that doesn’t come across as escalatory and creates irreparable harm between us since I have to keep living here.
Our communication so far has been via text and they are responsive but they come across as distracted and not very on top of things. So communicating via text is not the best as it’s hard to communicate on sensitive topics but at least there’s a paper trail. Phone calls are not my strong suit, although I can do them, but then there’s no paper trail. Talking in person when they show up for the inspection has the advantages of a face-to-face, humanizing conversation, but the downside is that it might be too late by then to smoothly avoid a confrontation.
I have been polite and have so far avoided a direct confrontation on the matter, but I think until they understand California Civil Code 1945, they believe they have the right to enter my apartment as long as they provide sufficient notice. I am struggling with how to communicate my rights to them smoothly. Saying "here is the law, I have rights!" doesn't seem effective.
How do I communicate and assert my rights to my landlord without (ideally) pissing them off?
I have inherited a new landlord for an old apartment. They are new to me and, I presume, new to being a landlord. As a result, they seem to still be figuring out how to landlord. Meanwhile, they want to inspect my apartment. I have asked for clarification and have been told: they want to “inspect the units because they are new to us”. I have asked if there is any specific goal they hope to accomplish and the answer was, essentially, no.
I have researched the topic and it’s very clear that in California, a landlord may enter a tenant’s unit only under very specific circumstances. See here and here. A general inspection is not considered a legitimate reason. I am struggling with how to communicate this in a way that doesn’t come across as escalatory and creates irreparable harm between us since I have to keep living here.
Our communication so far has been via text and they are responsive but they come across as distracted and not very on top of things. So communicating via text is not the best as it’s hard to communicate on sensitive topics but at least there’s a paper trail. Phone calls are not my strong suit, although I can do them, but then there’s no paper trail. Talking in person when they show up for the inspection has the advantages of a face-to-face, humanizing conversation, but the downside is that it might be too late by then to smoothly avoid a confrontation.
I have been polite and have so far avoided a direct confrontation on the matter, but I think until they understand California Civil Code 1945, they believe they have the right to enter my apartment as long as they provide sufficient notice. I am struggling with how to communicate my rights to them smoothly. Saying "here is the law, I have rights!" doesn't seem effective.
How do I communicate and assert my rights to my landlord without (ideally) pissing them off?
I stay on good terms with my landlady, even though she uses a property management company. It is useful, because property management people want to do what is profitable for them, but not necssarily the owner. In the case of my new stove, I got a great stove, to replace the nice one that broke, they wanted to give me some POS without an oven light, a clock, or a timer, or a window in the oven door to look at how your stuff is cooking. They would have charged her for the POS, likely, what I got the great stove for.
It is a good idea to meet the new owner, and be friendly. Tidy up.
posted by Oyéah at 5:20 PM on March 9, 2023
It is a good idea to meet the new owner, and be friendly. Tidy up.
posted by Oyéah at 5:20 PM on March 9, 2023
If they inherited the property, I wonder if they're considering selling it and that's why they want to look inside. It's tricky...I can see the value of building a good relationship with them, but I also think it's possible to politely assert your rights if you really don't want them to enter. Easiest to be clear on the phone, though. Are you worried that they're going to show up when you're not home?
posted by pinochiette at 5:27 PM on March 9, 2023
posted by pinochiette at 5:27 PM on March 9, 2023
I think you should see this as a chance to educate your landlords. Obviously they're new to this. Tell them they can't do that against your wishes, but you'd like them to come over and meet you and check the place out.
Just because you have rights, you don't always have to use them. (Unless they're rights you'll lose if you don't stand up for, which is another matter.) Sometimes it's better to be nice.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 5:41 PM on March 9, 2023
Just because you have rights, you don't always have to use them. (Unless they're rights you'll lose if you don't stand up for, which is another matter.) Sometimes it's better to be nice.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 5:41 PM on March 9, 2023
My motivation is: the idea of some looky-loo walking around my place, possibly taking photos, etc. because they want to and without an intention to actually make improvements or help me makes me feel bad. I'm working to be more assertive in general, instead of capitulating. If they did come in, it will not be the end of the world for me, and my home is in tidy condition.
I much prefer to have my relationships be on good terms, that's usually how I operate, but that requires the other party to operate in good faith - which is hard to achieve if they believe they are simply exercising their rights and not stomping on mine.
I will be home when this happens, so I'm not worried about that aspect - this time.
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 5:42 PM on March 9, 2023
I much prefer to have my relationships be on good terms, that's usually how I operate, but that requires the other party to operate in good faith - which is hard to achieve if they believe they are simply exercising their rights and not stomping on mine.
I will be home when this happens, so I'm not worried about that aspect - this time.
posted by Goblin Barbarian at 5:42 PM on March 9, 2023
Have they seen the inside of your place? As a very small time landlord, i would certain want to have a chance to see this property that I just acquired to understand what I had. I would also think I might be more articulate and professional than your landlord but I could see wanting do that too. I wouldn't think of myself as a random loony-loo but as taking an interest in the property. (Of course you don't have to agree.)
If you decide to do it, make it clear that it a one-time getting to know you kind of thing and that future visits should only be able maintaining the property.
posted by metahawk at 5:48 PM on March 9, 2023
If you decide to do it, make it clear that it a one-time getting to know you kind of thing and that future visits should only be able maintaining the property.
posted by metahawk at 5:48 PM on March 9, 2023
I don’t know that I would use this as the arena for standing up for myself. I don’t think a landlord who hasn’t seen their property’s interior is necessarily a looky loo! It’s pretty reasonable for them to want this baseline assessment of the place. And it could benefit you if you have anything a) you’d like fixed/improved or b) if there’s anything you wouldn’t want to be on the hook for at move-out.
If they are saying you MUST let them do this by law, then by all means, tell them actually, no. But if they’re essentially asking for a courtesy then I’d be magnanimous, and save any boundary assertions for when they breach them unreasonably.
posted by kapers at 5:57 PM on March 9, 2023
If they are saying you MUST let them do this by law, then by all means, tell them actually, no. But if they’re essentially asking for a courtesy then I’d be magnanimous, and save any boundary assertions for when they breach them unreasonably.
posted by kapers at 5:57 PM on March 9, 2023
If you establish a positive relationship now, it will make the new landlord much more likely to prioritize your needs in the future — and you won’t have to stand up for your rights as fiercely.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:59 PM on March 9, 2023
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 5:59 PM on March 9, 2023
As a very small time landlord, i would certain want to have a chance to see this property.
A landlord who is not personally invested in the OP's rental unit could be the perfect person to persuade that this is _not_ actually reasonable. Emotions are too strong. This is someone's home and refuge, and people _judge_, even if they try not to do so.
Why should a tenant -- who is paying a TON of money for the right to use property that the landlord did not create, especially if they inherited it -- be required to satisfy that person's curiosity? The landlord is not putting in enough hours of labor to think of the rent as a reasonable hourly wage; the rent is because the tenant is paying the landlord for _rights_.
As a very small time landlord, i would certain want to have a chance to see this property.
...Understandable, but as a tenant, it's also understandable that they very much _wouldn't_ want someone coming into their home just to 'have a chance to see'. It's their home. Their only home, their real home, their domain, which they pay money for -- probably more money than for anything else in their life, more than they're comfortable with, and money that they wish they could put away for retirement or education or even a much much needed vacation. Partly they do this to have safety and security, and partly to avoid having someone (i.e. a parent or roommate) looking at them, their stuff, or how they live -- especially someone who has any degree of say in whether they have a home, how much they pay for that, and whether they are allowed to have pets or hang pictures on the wall.
So, it would be great to have a landlord weigh in on how they can assert this legal right to control over their space without upsetting another landlord.
It would be even better to have a landlord be a friend and offer to communicate with the other landlord that, while the desire to "inspect" a tenant's living space i.e. home is totally understandable, it's not legal.
Perhaps a landlord could understand why this isn't allowed by considering an analogous case. Perhaps a landlord would not want a government official to inspect their home to gauge whether said landlord is actually a worthy, virtuous, and clean person -- although of course the official wouldn't comment out loud, and of course wouldn't _do_ anything unless they discovered something they really really didn't like, or that the landlord was using a shower head that didn't conserve water properly, or that the landlord had very different standards for their home's floor coverings or appliances or aesthetics than they maintained in their rental property (where the primary focus is, of course, not spending too much money on things that tenants will just damage).
posted by amtho at 6:08 PM on March 9, 2023
A landlord who is not personally invested in the OP's rental unit could be the perfect person to persuade that this is _not_ actually reasonable. Emotions are too strong. This is someone's home and refuge, and people _judge_, even if they try not to do so.
Why should a tenant -- who is paying a TON of money for the right to use property that the landlord did not create, especially if they inherited it -- be required to satisfy that person's curiosity? The landlord is not putting in enough hours of labor to think of the rent as a reasonable hourly wage; the rent is because the tenant is paying the landlord for _rights_.
As a very small time landlord, i would certain want to have a chance to see this property.
...Understandable, but as a tenant, it's also understandable that they very much _wouldn't_ want someone coming into their home just to 'have a chance to see'. It's their home. Their only home, their real home, their domain, which they pay money for -- probably more money than for anything else in their life, more than they're comfortable with, and money that they wish they could put away for retirement or education or even a much much needed vacation. Partly they do this to have safety and security, and partly to avoid having someone (i.e. a parent or roommate) looking at them, their stuff, or how they live -- especially someone who has any degree of say in whether they have a home, how much they pay for that, and whether they are allowed to have pets or hang pictures on the wall.
So, it would be great to have a landlord weigh in on how they can assert this legal right to control over their space without upsetting another landlord.
It would be even better to have a landlord be a friend and offer to communicate with the other landlord that, while the desire to "inspect" a tenant's living space i.e. home is totally understandable, it's not legal.
Perhaps a landlord could understand why this isn't allowed by considering an analogous case. Perhaps a landlord would not want a government official to inspect their home to gauge whether said landlord is actually a worthy, virtuous, and clean person -- although of course the official wouldn't comment out loud, and of course wouldn't _do_ anything unless they discovered something they really really didn't like, or that the landlord was using a shower head that didn't conserve water properly, or that the landlord had very different standards for their home's floor coverings or appliances or aesthetics than they maintained in their rental property (where the primary focus is, of course, not spending too much money on things that tenants will just damage).
posted by amtho at 6:08 PM on March 9, 2023
I think I have a pretty clear anti-landlord track record 'round these parts, but I'd choose another arena of life in which to practice self-assertion. Do you have some form of guaranteed right of renewal of your lease? No? Then pick fights with your landlord that matter. Barring some other context, a new landlord wanting to take a look at the place, at a reasonable and mutually agreeable time, is not being unreasonable. Under the code, the old landlord could have shown it to them before the sale, so the idea that this request infringes some underlying vital right to privacy doesn't hold up. And the odds that nothing will occur during your tenancy that will give them reasonable cover to enter under the code if they really want to are low. Even if you do enjoy the protection of some form of reasonable cause eviction law, why start off on the wrong foot with someone it will not improve your quality of life to have to struggle with every time you need something from them?
posted by praemunire at 6:15 PM on March 9, 2023
posted by praemunire at 6:15 PM on March 9, 2023
It would be better for everyone if the landlord had a trained professional home inspector visit. They would definitely see things the landlord would miss, and would know when something that looks questionable was actually not a big deal.
The only reason for the landlord personally to visit would be personal curiosity, and that's not a good enough reason to invade someone's privacy.
If you suggest this, be sure to mention that, while you are very much not legally required to allow an inspector to visit, as a personal favor, you are happy to allow this as long as you can coordinate directly with the inspector to set a good time.
The landlord might try to show up with the inspector to come inside anyway. I'd try to get ahead of this by making _sure_ they know that they'd be breaking the law by doing so, and by announcing well in advance that you would be videoing the inspection so you could be sure you have a complete record so you'll know, ten years or so in the future, if you are liable for any damages -- you want to be sure you compensate your wonderful landlord for any damages without getting into any inconvenient he-said/she-said situations.
posted by amtho at 6:21 PM on March 9, 2023
The only reason for the landlord personally to visit would be personal curiosity, and that's not a good enough reason to invade someone's privacy.
If you suggest this, be sure to mention that, while you are very much not legally required to allow an inspector to visit, as a personal favor, you are happy to allow this as long as you can coordinate directly with the inspector to set a good time.
The landlord might try to show up with the inspector to come inside anyway. I'd try to get ahead of this by making _sure_ they know that they'd be breaking the law by doing so, and by announcing well in advance that you would be videoing the inspection so you could be sure you have a complete record so you'll know, ten years or so in the future, if you are liable for any damages -- you want to be sure you compensate your wonderful landlord for any damages without getting into any inconvenient he-said/she-said situations.
posted by amtho at 6:21 PM on March 9, 2023
To answer your specific question - "How do I communicate and assert my rights to my landlord without (ideally) pissing them off?":
You can't control whether your landlord gets pissed off; how they feel is up to them. You can strive for a positive interaction by being polite, but they might get pissed off no matter what, so just remind yourself that their reaction is really not within your control.
I, too, really value a paper trail, and if it were me, I'd probably try to shift to email, just because it's a little easier to track and read, but text is fine too.
In situations like this, I usually get the best results by being clear, direct, and honest, while saying as little as possible - you don't need to explain everything, or anything. Just give a short, clear answer - maybe something like:
* I prefer not to have any unnecessary entry into the apartment.
If you want, you could go the slightly emotional route:
* The prospect of an unnecessary entry into the apartment makes me uncomfortable.
IF you want to, you can add something like, "If there's anything specific you wanted to know, perhaps I could answer your question", or if you know that the layout of your apartment is similar to other units, you could volunteer that information.
But in general, I recommend the shortest, most direct but polite phrase you can come up with. "Thank you for asking. I do not wish to have anyone enter the apartment unnecessarily." Then drop it and see if they push back. If they ask why, just say "I prefer not to." If they push, just say "My answer hasn't changed; I prefer not to." If they keep pushing, say "I value maintaining a good relationship with everyone I do business with, as you've seen by my prompt payment of the rent. However, I am aware of my rights under California law, and I am not willing to give you permission to enter my apartment unnecessarily. Thank you for understanding."
I hope that helps. Good luck!
posted by kristi at 6:24 PM on March 9, 2023
You can't control whether your landlord gets pissed off; how they feel is up to them. You can strive for a positive interaction by being polite, but they might get pissed off no matter what, so just remind yourself that their reaction is really not within your control.
I, too, really value a paper trail, and if it were me, I'd probably try to shift to email, just because it's a little easier to track and read, but text is fine too.
In situations like this, I usually get the best results by being clear, direct, and honest, while saying as little as possible - you don't need to explain everything, or anything. Just give a short, clear answer - maybe something like:
* I prefer not to have any unnecessary entry into the apartment.
If you want, you could go the slightly emotional route:
* The prospect of an unnecessary entry into the apartment makes me uncomfortable.
IF you want to, you can add something like, "If there's anything specific you wanted to know, perhaps I could answer your question", or if you know that the layout of your apartment is similar to other units, you could volunteer that information.
But in general, I recommend the shortest, most direct but polite phrase you can come up with. "Thank you for asking. I do not wish to have anyone enter the apartment unnecessarily." Then drop it and see if they push back. If they ask why, just say "I prefer not to." If they push, just say "My answer hasn't changed; I prefer not to." If they keep pushing, say "I value maintaining a good relationship with everyone I do business with, as you've seen by my prompt payment of the rent. However, I am aware of my rights under California law, and I am not willing to give you permission to enter my apartment unnecessarily. Thank you for understanding."
I hope that helps. Good luck!
posted by kristi at 6:24 PM on March 9, 2023
Under the code, the old landlord could have shown it to them before the sale, so the idea that this request infringes some underlying vital right to privacy doesn't hold up.
For this statement, the first part doesn't imply the second part. The old landlord showing the place before a sale _would_ infringe an underlying vital right to privacy. Just because it's legal doesn't make it not an intrusion, ethically. I get that it might be necessary -- an action can be necessary for one party and still harm another party.
People "needing" to do things (in order to maximize sale price, or assuage their conscience, or make the world the way they fervently believe it should be) is precisely why there are rules and laws in the first place. There are conflicting needs in the world. People's emotional needs are the _easiest things in the world_ to ignore; we as a civilization have worked long and hard in order to protect those needs, because they actually _are_ important even if it's difficult to explain that in high-stress situations with people who have more power for whatever reason.
posted by amtho at 6:27 PM on March 9, 2023
For this statement, the first part doesn't imply the second part. The old landlord showing the place before a sale _would_ infringe an underlying vital right to privacy. Just because it's legal doesn't make it not an intrusion, ethically. I get that it might be necessary -- an action can be necessary for one party and still harm another party.
People "needing" to do things (in order to maximize sale price, or assuage their conscience, or make the world the way they fervently believe it should be) is precisely why there are rules and laws in the first place. There are conflicting needs in the world. People's emotional needs are the _easiest things in the world_ to ignore; we as a civilization have worked long and hard in order to protect those needs, because they actually _are_ important even if it's difficult to explain that in high-stress situations with people who have more power for whatever reason.
posted by amtho at 6:27 PM on March 9, 2023
Oh, and by the way: If you haven't yet read When I Say No, I Feel Guilty, please see if you can find a copy (your library probably has one) - it's a classic for a reason.
posted by kristi at 6:34 PM on March 9, 2023
posted by kristi at 6:34 PM on March 9, 2023
As for maintaining a good relationship:
If you possibly can, try to meet the landlord in person; failing that, over Zoom; failing that, with an actual voice phone call -- but something where you can see each other and have complete focus on each other is most likely to establish you as _human beings_ to each other.
This will lead to you assuming the best of each others' motives, particularly the landlord of you. It's important.
Try to avoid immediately focusing on your apartment, any possible visit, or any complaints you have, for as long as possible. Be a human, who cares about other humans, and who does good, valuable things in the world out of compassion and care (don't talk about that stuff, just be a fully human person to this other person so that they can see you as more than 'a tenant'). Do be sensitive to their needs and desires! Apparently, a relative or friend of theirs died recently -- that's heavy, and shouldn't be ignored. They are probably trying to do a good job, and they probably care about their tenants as much as they can given the scant information they have about you. They probably care about providing a good, safe, beautiful home for you; let them know that they are succeeding to the degree they are. Learn what they hope for, and be an ally in some way, even if only in wishing to be so.
Relationship first.
Then, you should both, ideally, be able to be a little honest -- to the extent that such a power imbalance permits -- about what you really need and want, and what your boundaries are.
posted by amtho at 6:35 PM on March 9, 2023
If you possibly can, try to meet the landlord in person; failing that, over Zoom; failing that, with an actual voice phone call -- but something where you can see each other and have complete focus on each other is most likely to establish you as _human beings_ to each other.
This will lead to you assuming the best of each others' motives, particularly the landlord of you. It's important.
Try to avoid immediately focusing on your apartment, any possible visit, or any complaints you have, for as long as possible. Be a human, who cares about other humans, and who does good, valuable things in the world out of compassion and care (don't talk about that stuff, just be a fully human person to this other person so that they can see you as more than 'a tenant'). Do be sensitive to their needs and desires! Apparently, a relative or friend of theirs died recently -- that's heavy, and shouldn't be ignored. They are probably trying to do a good job, and they probably care about their tenants as much as they can given the scant information they have about you. They probably care about providing a good, safe, beautiful home for you; let them know that they are succeeding to the degree they are. Learn what they hope for, and be an ally in some way, even if only in wishing to be so.
Relationship first.
Then, you should both, ideally, be able to be a little honest -- to the extent that such a power imbalance permits -- about what you really need and want, and what your boundaries are.
posted by amtho at 6:35 PM on March 9, 2023
It would be very good to know your rights as a tenant in CA with the new-ish laws regarding rent control and eviction control. In my experience it is somewhat complicated for privately owned single family homes, requiring disclosures and declarations of rights within certain time frames. Under these new laws tenants have more rights to continuous habitation/month-to-month or renewing leases than in other states.
I'm not saying there's no need to befriend your landlord, but tenants have a lot of power in CA that they may not have elsewhere.
In your shoes I might simply agree to follow the lease agreement when it comes to allowing the landlord to disturb my quiet enjoyment.
posted by muddgirl at 7:06 PM on March 9, 2023
I'm not saying there's no need to befriend your landlord, but tenants have a lot of power in CA that they may not have elsewhere.
In your shoes I might simply agree to follow the lease agreement when it comes to allowing the landlord to disturb my quiet enjoyment.
posted by muddgirl at 7:06 PM on March 9, 2023
People "needing" to do things (in order to maximize sale price, or assuage their conscience, or make the world the way they fervently believe it should be) is precisely why there are rules and laws in the first place.
Thanks, I'm a lawyer, I'm aware. As a lawyer who's done a decent amount of commercial litigation, I'm also aware of the ways in which rules and laws do not furnish a fully comprehensive and satisfactory basis for conducting one's business with other people. A successful relationship using a shared asset, even with a questionable class like landlords, requires some mutual accommodation. I don't believe in giving landlords much of the benefit of the doubt, but there are limits even to my antagonism. All circumstances being reasonable, wanting to examine their property (once) this month when they could've legally examined it last month accompanied by the prior owner is not an absurd request, and, without some context to give it some credence, the idea that it's driven by the landlord's desire to be a "looky loo" as opposed to wanting to get a more detailed idea of what they own is...not supported.
On a practical level, this is almost a case study of how Mefi can pick a simple solution like "boundaries" and ride it to folly. This person's lease is going to need to be renewed, presumably within the next year. Their "boundaries" will be a wonderful comfort to them as they try to find a new place and cough up for the movers. If the desire is simply to set an assertive tone, saying, "I will permit you to enter at [x time] as a courtesy" is sufficient. But that is not going to keep the landlord out indefinitely. If nothing else...the lease will end.
posted by praemunire at 7:11 PM on March 9, 2023
Thanks, I'm a lawyer, I'm aware. As a lawyer who's done a decent amount of commercial litigation, I'm also aware of the ways in which rules and laws do not furnish a fully comprehensive and satisfactory basis for conducting one's business with other people. A successful relationship using a shared asset, even with a questionable class like landlords, requires some mutual accommodation. I don't believe in giving landlords much of the benefit of the doubt, but there are limits even to my antagonism. All circumstances being reasonable, wanting to examine their property (once) this month when they could've legally examined it last month accompanied by the prior owner is not an absurd request, and, without some context to give it some credence, the idea that it's driven by the landlord's desire to be a "looky loo" as opposed to wanting to get a more detailed idea of what they own is...not supported.
On a practical level, this is almost a case study of how Mefi can pick a simple solution like "boundaries" and ride it to folly. This person's lease is going to need to be renewed, presumably within the next year. Their "boundaries" will be a wonderful comfort to them as they try to find a new place and cough up for the movers. If the desire is simply to set an assertive tone, saying, "I will permit you to enter at [x time] as a courtesy" is sufficient. But that is not going to keep the landlord out indefinitely. If nothing else...the lease will end.
posted by praemunire at 7:11 PM on March 9, 2023
It's not as simple as saying "the lease will end" in CA.
posted by muddgirl at 7:15 PM on March 9, 2023
posted by muddgirl at 7:15 PM on March 9, 2023
Oh sorry - I never seem to be 100% clear.
I'm not advocating a combative or even assertive tone, and I wasn't advocating spouting "this is the law so nyah-nyah-nyah". My last comment is about establishing a congenial relationship, and even prioritizing that.
However, the OP's needs here may not be the same as yours w.r.t. privacy, and I suppose I was advocating that they be given more weight, generally, than most answers seem to be implying. "Do what your landlord wants because you have no power" seems, perhaps, as not a desirable endpoint of all debate and advice. Some counterpoint might not be a bad idea, even if the action arising out of it is more nuanced and internal or circumstance- and emotional-intelligence-dependent than tortious.
Also, most responses seem to be ignoring or minimizing the OP's real and reasonable reluctance to just allow the landlord to have their way. I'm doing the opposite of that.
Finally - WHO is going to educate this landlord? I'm not saying the tenant should. But nobody is even considering it.
posted by amtho at 7:21 PM on March 9, 2023
I'm not advocating a combative or even assertive tone, and I wasn't advocating spouting "this is the law so nyah-nyah-nyah". My last comment is about establishing a congenial relationship, and even prioritizing that.
However, the OP's needs here may not be the same as yours w.r.t. privacy, and I suppose I was advocating that they be given more weight, generally, than most answers seem to be implying. "Do what your landlord wants because you have no power" seems, perhaps, as not a desirable endpoint of all debate and advice. Some counterpoint might not be a bad idea, even if the action arising out of it is more nuanced and internal or circumstance- and emotional-intelligence-dependent than tortious.
Also, most responses seem to be ignoring or minimizing the OP's real and reasonable reluctance to just allow the landlord to have their way. I'm doing the opposite of that.
Finally - WHO is going to educate this landlord? I'm not saying the tenant should. But nobody is even considering it.
posted by amtho at 7:21 PM on March 9, 2023
“I am still being quite covid cautious and am avoiding having people in my home unless absolutely necessary. I would be happy to give you a virtual tour and say hi!” You can start friendly with a reasonable answer about why you aren’t having people in your home with a compromise offered. If you get push back you can say “I really do appreciate where you are coming from and want to accommodate both your needs and mine within California law. Can we work something out?”
Setting boundaries can be done in a nice a friendly way, and doesn’t have to be combative. I wouldn’t bring up the legal aspect unless you get push back. And if your new landlord is understanding and happy to do a virtual tour, point out some nice features of the apartment and some things he should be aware of. And you can slide in a mention that if he or workers need to enter the home to fix any of those issues, California law stipulates xyz, so you’ll expect that.
And a nice thing about offering a virtual tour - you can be a little bad at technology and just accidentally 😉 turn off the camera when you are moving through areas you feel are more private and don’t want to share. “Oh how weird! I can still see you fine, let me see if reception is better over here.”
posted by Bottlecap at 9:12 PM on March 9, 2023
Setting boundaries can be done in a nice a friendly way, and doesn’t have to be combative. I wouldn’t bring up the legal aspect unless you get push back. And if your new landlord is understanding and happy to do a virtual tour, point out some nice features of the apartment and some things he should be aware of. And you can slide in a mention that if he or workers need to enter the home to fix any of those issues, California law stipulates xyz, so you’ll expect that.
And a nice thing about offering a virtual tour - you can be a little bad at technology and just accidentally 😉 turn off the camera when you are moving through areas you feel are more private and don’t want to share. “Oh how weird! I can still see you fine, let me see if reception is better over here.”
posted by Bottlecap at 9:12 PM on March 9, 2023
Would be helpful to know what city you live in because cities can have additional protections above CA law, which would be helpful context.
Personally I wouldn't choose to push back on this one specific instance, but OP question seems pretty firm on wanting to push back, and is curious about the "how" of it. Some good advice about that here; my only additional advice is that if you feel at all iffy about the landlord relationship you should keep a log of your interactions and their asks. It's just good practice, particularly if you live in a city where housing costs are rising, like most in CA. Landlords in CA love to harass and bully people out of apartments in search of someone who doesn't know their rights and/or will pay a higher monthly subsidy into their generational family wealth.
posted by kensington314 at 10:40 PM on March 9, 2023
Personally I wouldn't choose to push back on this one specific instance, but OP question seems pretty firm on wanting to push back, and is curious about the "how" of it. Some good advice about that here; my only additional advice is that if you feel at all iffy about the landlord relationship you should keep a log of your interactions and their asks. It's just good practice, particularly if you live in a city where housing costs are rising, like most in CA. Landlords in CA love to harass and bully people out of apartments in search of someone who doesn't know their rights and/or will pay a higher monthly subsidy into their generational family wealth.
posted by kensington314 at 10:40 PM on March 9, 2023
Then pick fights with your landlord that matter.
Rightfully pointing out that in California a landlord may not enter a tenant's property is not "picking a fight". A landlord doesn't get to break the law to satisfy their curiosity, and there is no guarantee whatsoever that capitulating to their demands makes the tenant look any better- in fact it shouldn't. Tenants have rights regardless of whether or not they acquiesce to illegal inspections.
OP, do you still have your lease agreement? In ours it spelled out when the landlord was allowed to enter. I would use the old school "I'm sorry that won't be possible" response; and then point to the lease or the law.
We had to print out and send a copy of heating requirements to our previous landlord, pointing out that it was illegal for him to turn off the steam boiler in the building between 10am and 5pm in the winter time. He was surprised that was the law in Oakland because it was not the case in San Francisco. Landlords don't know everything.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:18 PM on March 9, 2023
Rightfully pointing out that in California a landlord may not enter a tenant's property is not "picking a fight". A landlord doesn't get to break the law to satisfy their curiosity, and there is no guarantee whatsoever that capitulating to their demands makes the tenant look any better- in fact it shouldn't. Tenants have rights regardless of whether or not they acquiesce to illegal inspections.
OP, do you still have your lease agreement? In ours it spelled out when the landlord was allowed to enter. I would use the old school "I'm sorry that won't be possible" response; and then point to the lease or the law.
We had to print out and send a copy of heating requirements to our previous landlord, pointing out that it was illegal for him to turn off the steam boiler in the building between 10am and 5pm in the winter time. He was surprised that was the law in Oakland because it was not the case in San Francisco. Landlords don't know everything.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:18 PM on March 9, 2023
I'd say something like "Sorry but I've had really intrusive landlords in the past who really overstepped so I decided a while ago to only allow visits that are legally required."
Who knows what they're doing? Maybe they just want to see what 'their' units look like but why didn't they do that before the purchase if it was that important to them? Especially given there's multiple units on some level they are absolutely exercising their power over you with this inspection, its not just that they need to see, they need to assert their ownership to themselves.
posted by mosswinter at 2:28 AM on March 10, 2023
Who knows what they're doing? Maybe they just want to see what 'their' units look like but why didn't they do that before the purchase if it was that important to them? Especially given there's multiple units on some level they are absolutely exercising their power over you with this inspection, its not just that they need to see, they need to assert their ownership to themselves.
posted by mosswinter at 2:28 AM on March 10, 2023
Having been a renter in LA and in SF, and also a landlord in SF, I can tell you that there are specific interpretations of local codes in practice that are not well represented in your reading of the code. In a regulatory sense, there is the legal code, and then there is (local) guidance that has been developed based on legal precedents set by cases that have explored, and maybe changed, the practice and execution of what's expressed in the code.
Based on my experience in SF, I think the local authorities would agree with your new landlord—giving notice is what is important, and there would need to be extenuating circumstances to merit a variance from that expectation. What you need, I think, is a very local tenants' rights advocate who can assess your specific situation in all the detail that it takes to make a good, regionally-relevant call in situations like this. Then, if you have to push back on your landlord, you can provide the assessment from whomever has advised you. That holds water, moreso than pushback from a tenant.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:13 AM on March 10, 2023
Based on my experience in SF, I think the local authorities would agree with your new landlord—giving notice is what is important, and there would need to be extenuating circumstances to merit a variance from that expectation. What you need, I think, is a very local tenants' rights advocate who can assess your specific situation in all the detail that it takes to make a good, regionally-relevant call in situations like this. Then, if you have to push back on your landlord, you can provide the assessment from whomever has advised you. That holds water, moreso than pushback from a tenant.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:13 AM on March 10, 2023
Praemunire has it right. This is not the hill.
posted by dum spiro spero at 4:45 AM on March 10, 2023
posted by dum spiro spero at 4:45 AM on March 10, 2023
As a small time landlord who bought a 2 family house, we asked to do this with our tenants when we bought the house to see if there was anything they wanted fixed, and yea, because of curiosity, or rather to have a general idea of the costs of renovation in case the tenants decides to move out. We had a great relationship with the tenants who let us in. The other family did NOT let us in, and guess who we asked to move out when we ourselves needed one of the 2 units to live in.
I say let the landlord in, remind them of the law and set boundaries for the future in case they really are not aware that they can't do this all the time, but be understanding of this situation.
Of course there's a chance they're looking to inspect it to decide whether to sell, but frankly they'll sell anyway if they want to, so that will affect your future livelihood either way.
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 5:37 AM on March 10, 2023
I say let the landlord in, remind them of the law and set boundaries for the future in case they really are not aware that they can't do this all the time, but be understanding of this situation.
Of course there's a chance they're looking to inspect it to decide whether to sell, but frankly they'll sell anyway if they want to, so that will affect your future livelihood either way.
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 5:37 AM on March 10, 2023
Legal stuff aside, a new owner of a building wanting to see the units they are now responsible for seems like a good practice.
A friend of mine just moved out of an apartment that the landlord never saw--and when they moved out the landlord wanted to keep the deposit due to some wall damage he noticed. Thankfully, my friend had taken photos when they moved in which showed the damage was there prior their tenancy.
If I were your landlord, I might wonder if you are a hoarder or have secret roommates, illegal pets, a grow room, etc... Which doesn't mean you cannot push back on this, but, as many are saying, you might want to re-consider your resistance. It really does not seem like a huge ask.
If you say no, they might be annoyed or suspicious of you, nothing you can do about that. Maybe offer to send photos of the space?
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 5:52 AM on March 10, 2023
A friend of mine just moved out of an apartment that the landlord never saw--and when they moved out the landlord wanted to keep the deposit due to some wall damage he noticed. Thankfully, my friend had taken photos when they moved in which showed the damage was there prior their tenancy.
If I were your landlord, I might wonder if you are a hoarder or have secret roommates, illegal pets, a grow room, etc... Which doesn't mean you cannot push back on this, but, as many are saying, you might want to re-consider your resistance. It really does not seem like a huge ask.
If you say no, they might be annoyed or suspicious of you, nothing you can do about that. Maybe offer to send photos of the space?
Good luck.
posted by rhonzo at 5:52 AM on March 10, 2023
If they are buying the building or already own it, they have a right to inspect "their" property.
Just be there when they come, put things private away.
This is nothing sinister.
posted by james33 at 6:29 AM on March 10, 2023
Just be there when they come, put things private away.
This is nothing sinister.
posted by james33 at 6:29 AM on March 10, 2023
I had this happen a few times with my last apartment; my super gave me some great advice. He said that it did make sense for them to come check things out, but said that it was within my rights to not allow them to take pictures.
From what you've written (new landlord just bought the building), it makes sense for your landlord to want to have a look and make sure that there's no huge holes in the drywall or anything; and if there are, then you're there and you can say "yeah, I've been after the super to fix this but so far he's been blowing me off" or whatever, and then they can help. But it also makes sense for you to want to be there WHEN this is happening, and if you see them trying to take a picture of something on their phone, say "please, I'd rather you not take photos" or whatever.
So I'd allow your landlord to do this, but "let's set up a good time for us both, are days or evenings better for you" or whatever. Set up a time and date (preferably one a few days away at least so you have time to clean and put anything weird away), and then be there while they're there.
And I really wouldn't worry about this; the landlord isn't there to snoop on you and see "oooh, you have a copy of THE JOY OF SEX on your bookshelf, how scandalous" or anything. They're just looking to see "what's the basic condition of this apartment, are there any outstanding repair issues I need to watch out for, and does this tenant seem decent or are they digging a hole in the floorboards or anything destructive like that". It could also be as simple as they just want to know what is the SIZE of the apartment (on one such visit, my landlord and super showed up and the landlord simply used an app on his phone to measure the size of the various rooms and then he left; my super stuck around an extra couple minutes to say nice things about how clean everything looked).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on March 10, 2023
From what you've written (new landlord just bought the building), it makes sense for your landlord to want to have a look and make sure that there's no huge holes in the drywall or anything; and if there are, then you're there and you can say "yeah, I've been after the super to fix this but so far he's been blowing me off" or whatever, and then they can help. But it also makes sense for you to want to be there WHEN this is happening, and if you see them trying to take a picture of something on their phone, say "please, I'd rather you not take photos" or whatever.
So I'd allow your landlord to do this, but "let's set up a good time for us both, are days or evenings better for you" or whatever. Set up a time and date (preferably one a few days away at least so you have time to clean and put anything weird away), and then be there while they're there.
And I really wouldn't worry about this; the landlord isn't there to snoop on you and see "oooh, you have a copy of THE JOY OF SEX on your bookshelf, how scandalous" or anything. They're just looking to see "what's the basic condition of this apartment, are there any outstanding repair issues I need to watch out for, and does this tenant seem decent or are they digging a hole in the floorboards or anything destructive like that". It could also be as simple as they just want to know what is the SIZE of the apartment (on one such visit, my landlord and super showed up and the landlord simply used an app on his phone to measure the size of the various rooms and then he left; my super stuck around an extra couple minutes to say nice things about how clean everything looked).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on March 10, 2023
“ If they are buying the building or already own it, they have a right to inspect "their" property.” no they probably don’t if they’ve inherited the place the law probably has restrictions in place that list when they can have access and generally inspections after transfer aren’t a valid reason.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 7:17 AM on March 10, 2023
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 7:17 AM on March 10, 2023
On a completely different tack it would concern me that I let a stranger into my home to "inspect." I would arrange a specific day and time and have a friend with you. I just think that you don't know this person, there's a power imbalance, and I would not want to be alone with a stranger in my home.
Also, read your lease carefully to see under what circumstances the landlord is allowed to access your apartment. If you deny entry with reasonable notice you might be in violation of your lease.
posted by citygirl at 7:55 AM on March 10, 2023
Also, read your lease carefully to see under what circumstances the landlord is allowed to access your apartment. If you deny entry with reasonable notice you might be in violation of your lease.
posted by citygirl at 7:55 AM on March 10, 2023
Inspect your lease, yes, but also know not only state but local codes that may trump what is in the lease. Most landlords are too lazy to learn the rules, most others try to weaponize us tenants' ignorance of the rules against us.
posted by kensington314 at 8:45 AM on March 10, 2023
posted by kensington314 at 8:45 AM on March 10, 2023
If they are buying the building or already own it, they have a right to inspect "their" property.
People replying, please look up the relevant laws before typing what you think. They do not in California. The law is very straightforward. You should not be making assertions based on what you think the law should be.
A landlord may enter a tenant’s unit with prior written notice under the following circumstances:
1) To conduct necessary or agreed upon repairs;
2) To show the unit to mortgagees;
3) To show the unit to workers or contractors;
4) To show the unit to prospective tenants or purchasers; or
For a pre-move out walk-through to evaluate damage at the tenant’s request. Cal. Civ. Code § 1954.
Can a landlord enter a tenant’s unit to merely “inspect” it?
No. Tenants should note that a general inspection of the unit, even if only done annually, is not a permissible reason for entry under California law. Random non-specific inspections are not legal, regardless of whether the tenant was provided proper notice or not. When the landlord states the purpose for entry is to generally “inspect” the unit, the tenant should have the landlord clarify what specifically they are planning to inspect and have them put it in their written notice to the tenant. The request for inspection may be a lawful one, or the landlord may be attempting to enter the unit with an ulterior motive. In that case, when the landlord refuses to specify a legitimate purpose behind the inspection, the tenant may be able to reasonably refuse to allow the landlord access.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:07 AM on March 10, 2023
People replying, please look up the relevant laws before typing what you think. They do not in California. The law is very straightforward. You should not be making assertions based on what you think the law should be.
A landlord may enter a tenant’s unit with prior written notice under the following circumstances:
1) To conduct necessary or agreed upon repairs;
2) To show the unit to mortgagees;
3) To show the unit to workers or contractors;
4) To show the unit to prospective tenants or purchasers; or
For a pre-move out walk-through to evaluate damage at the tenant’s request. Cal. Civ. Code § 1954.
Can a landlord enter a tenant’s unit to merely “inspect” it?
No. Tenants should note that a general inspection of the unit, even if only done annually, is not a permissible reason for entry under California law. Random non-specific inspections are not legal, regardless of whether the tenant was provided proper notice or not. When the landlord states the purpose for entry is to generally “inspect” the unit, the tenant should have the landlord clarify what specifically they are planning to inspect and have them put it in their written notice to the tenant. The request for inspection may be a lawful one, or the landlord may be attempting to enter the unit with an ulterior motive. In that case, when the landlord refuses to specify a legitimate purpose behind the inspection, the tenant may be able to reasonably refuse to allow the landlord access.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:07 AM on March 10, 2023
Are there things you think need to be done in the apartment - newer appliances, paint, fix bathroom grout, etc. If you A) know what regular repairs/maintenance your landlord is required to make (ex. NYC landlords need to paint units every few years) and B) have a list of things you want done, then you can have the meeting on a more equal footing where you are going over expectations with the new landlord.
posted by brookeb at 5:35 PM on March 10, 2023
posted by brookeb at 5:35 PM on March 10, 2023
New idea: offer to make a video of the interior of your place and send them that. I don't think you should have to do this, but if the landlord gets insistent, this is a powerful counteroffer.
the landlord isn't there to snoop on you and see "oooh, you have...
This is one of many things that we can't know and shouldn't assume. I'm firmly "most people are good" and even more "most people are too busy," but this is a totally random person and you don't know, and shouldn't have to take on that risk.
posted by amtho at 6:42 PM on March 10, 2023
the landlord isn't there to snoop on you and see "oooh, you have...
This is one of many things that we can't know and shouldn't assume. I'm firmly "most people are good" and even more "most people are too busy," but this is a totally random person and you don't know, and shouldn't have to take on that risk.
posted by amtho at 6:42 PM on March 10, 2023
Pick your battles. I get that the landlord may not legally be in the right to check the property out but when you want them to fix something in a timely manner or not increase your rent (or not renew it, if the laws allow) you’ll appreciate having a good relationship with them vs an adversarial one. Why get things off on the wrong foot?
I’m a landlord and while I’m always on the right side of the law when it comes to looking after tenants, I’ve been know to go the extra mile for the ones who work with you. Good tenants and good landlords are worth their weight in gold.
posted by Jubey at 12:54 AM on March 12, 2023
I’m a landlord and while I’m always on the right side of the law when it comes to looking after tenants, I’ve been know to go the extra mile for the ones who work with you. Good tenants and good landlords are worth their weight in gold.
posted by Jubey at 12:54 AM on March 12, 2023
I'd hope that asking a landlord, in a non-hostile way, to honor one's privacy and the law wouldn't be adversarial...
posted by amtho at 3:48 AM on March 12, 2023
posted by amtho at 3:48 AM on March 12, 2023
« Older DIY/substitute case for three octave synthesizer | Hot Tubs 101: Winterizing/Turning Off to save... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by tiamat at 5:06 PM on March 9, 2023