I need to respond to my red-pilled last text message
February 21, 2023 11:56 AM
My friend, possibly a BFF has slowly been red-pilling herself over the last two years and it seems like she complains about “woke” all the time and called me "wokie". I don't want to hear her red-pilled bigotry anymore. I was assertive about this vocally and by text. She got upset. I should probably respond.
She has taken the YouTube algorithmic path to ped-pilling herself over the last couple of years.
She has been sending me messages about Dennis Prager, she got into Ben Shapiro for a while, she listens to Joe Rogan, and thinks Elon Musk is an amazing genius. That is all fine and not my cup of tea. It's her choice of entertainment and window into the world and not up to me to change that. The problem is she keeps talking to me about it.
It all started with Jordan Peterson. She’s always had some conservative values but hated talking about politics of any kind until she found Peterson. She has started forwarding me memes about transgender messaging in the schools, she complains about Elliot Page and the criminal doctor that removed their breasts.
The week of this conversation the three calls we had all included complaints about the “wokies”. Fist she was talking about how David Simon’s The Deuce is like TV from pre-woke (missing it’s a show by known lefty David Simon and about misogyny in the 70s porn industry and one woman who empowers herself in spite of that), she complained about men making pancakes for their children and how men are being “pussy-fied” and finally she complained about how you can’t smoke anywhere inside because of the wokies. I mentioned that banning smoking is not woke. She said, “of course you would say that. You are a leftist wokie” and I firmly responded with clear irritation in my voice, “I don’t want to hear about woke anymore, I don’t want to be called wokie. it’s insulting and I just don’t want to hear it. It’s a meaningless word used just to complain about whatever the complainers want to complain about. Usually just anything progressive” I bit my tongue and did not mention how I really feel about “anti-wokies” – people complaining about woke are, in my mind, bigots. Although, I was clearly irritated and feel I did my best to consciously be inappropriately angry also refraining from using other terms I associate with anti-woke people like racist, and in her case lobster.
I think I appropriately set a boundary on the subject with her. I could have maybe been a little smoother with it She seemed to have gotten the message and sent the following text message,
Her: No more of the w word... Ok? We fine? You fine? Good
Awesome! We came to a productive agreement! We had a few more silly messages after that until,
Her: it's happening! He's doing it!!!!! Jordan Peterson University - Opening 2023!!!!.
Me: let's wait and see how that one works out. Especially after a few months ago said he will no longer advise students because being associated with him was detrimental to their career. So that seems a little conflicting with the ideal of a University. Trump University!!
Her: Peterson's will have the best of the best professors all the ones that were fired or canceled
Me: Let’s see. (In my head I had more critical things to say, but decided to just respond neutrally with “let’s see”)
Her: Damn I could call you but then again, I have to be so careful with my words. Of course, I don't get offended! I said that so you realize how ridiculous it sounds. Nothing and nobody offends a human being because it's what you make of it. It's not what life throws at you is how one reacts. Nothing touches me except lack of freedom to be myself. I don't see how we can continue being friends, dude, seriously.
Me: When you call me names directly, like the other night, wokie, leftist, i am reacting as offended because I am offended, it's a pejorative and I let you know. it is frequent. I'm not sure you're aware you talk about "wokies" almost.......every.......conversation. It's contentious material, it's tiring. I take insult at being called wokie and annoyed by it, it is a pejorative and that's how I read it. I'm not limiting anybody's freedom, you be you, but I'm not interested in what the wokies are doing and don't want to hear about it.
Her: And when you have mention your opinions on Peterson "evil motherfucher" Trump or anyone republican who has a conservative opinion I have found it annoying but NEVER have I told you " You can't speak about that with me" NEVER! You cancelled me dude, think about it. It's so intolerant I can't tolerate it.
Her: And I may not be interested in oh so many topics you talk about but I let you fucking rant over and over and over again.
Her: I rant about wokies or any other topic you let me rant, only fair in a true friendship
Her: That's what finally got me, it doesn't seem like an equal friendship. For god's sake I let you insult me daily, A DUDE and you gonna turn around and fucking cancel me.
Her: When I call you names it's offensive, when you call me names you're "just teasing" Untucking believable
We ruthlessly tease each other all the time, but this is different. I’m just tired of any complaints of woke and all of it, whether from her or anybody else. This is at least to me something entirely different and something I’d like to put a stop to. whether she understands it or not, when she sincerely complains about woke people only to turn around and call me one, I read it as a tacit insult. I’m really not that insulted by being called names, but I am just over all the wokie nonsense and bigotry. I did my best to be properly assertive and use “I” statements and a shortened for of DEARMAN by Describing, Expressing my feelings, being Assertive to explain my point of view. I know I was probably not perfect, but I was trying to make it unconfrontational and to make it clear that “I” felt this way and set it up in a way that there is no argument to be had with the intent of avoiding an argument. I did waver over mentioning how she complains about woke “almost.......every.......conversation” but thought it was relevant and accurate. I used the word “contentious” on purpose because what she talks about is contentious. Most people know not to bring up politics around people that they know don’t agree with them. I tried to keep the subject limited to this one thing and how “I” am feeling.
If she was really upset about any insult I’ve used, she could of and should have told me. I would have stopped. She even writes that she never asked me to stop with any of the insults I have made. That’s on her.
What frustrated me more than anything is how she straight up went full on right-wing claims of her “freedom” being limited, her being “canceled” and invalidating my feeling by implying that I shouldn’t be offended because she doesn’t get offended. I’m truthfully not very offended but just really, really, really, really annoyed. I find her statements and worldview disagreeable at best, and distasteful and just awful. Clearly there has been a growing divergence of values between us and maybe we are just growing apart. Yeah I made fun of Peterson here but only because she brought him up. Yeah, I made a comparison to Trump and his university. I used to complain about Trump to her, but it’s been two years that he’s been out of the need to discuss him. Yes, I used to make fun or Jordan Peterson a lot, but out of politeness and to avoid further discussion of “woke” and gender politics with her.
My frustration about this has been building for some time without telling her. I have been questioning whether we can remain friends and have known that one day I would have to say something about this. Clearly, I’m not “canceling” her, but from my point of view, I’m setting a boundary and removing myself from any further conversations about this stuff.
How do I respond in a mature way? If it’s a final message to her, it’s a final message.
It’s been just over a week since her last message. I had put her on do not disturb after I told her I was offended about being called names because honestly, I knew she would argue back and I needed a break. I’m thinking that I should just reinforce my position by repeating, “When you call me names directly, like the other night, wokie, leftist, I am reacting as offended because I am offended, it's a pejorative and I let you know. It's contentious material, it's tiring. I take insult at being called wokie and annoyed by it, it is a pejorative and that's how I read it.”
I do not want to argue and feel that there is nothing to argue about. If she wants to just invalidate my feelings on this, I won’t respond and leave it at that. At that point, it’s just conflicting values. It sucks, but I feel in this case that there is not anything to negotiate beyond something like, “I’d love to remain friends, but I will leave any conversation if the topic turns to woke”
She has taken the YouTube algorithmic path to ped-pilling herself over the last couple of years.
She has been sending me messages about Dennis Prager, she got into Ben Shapiro for a while, she listens to Joe Rogan, and thinks Elon Musk is an amazing genius. That is all fine and not my cup of tea. It's her choice of entertainment and window into the world and not up to me to change that. The problem is she keeps talking to me about it.
It all started with Jordan Peterson. She’s always had some conservative values but hated talking about politics of any kind until she found Peterson. She has started forwarding me memes about transgender messaging in the schools, she complains about Elliot Page and the criminal doctor that removed their breasts.
The week of this conversation the three calls we had all included complaints about the “wokies”. Fist she was talking about how David Simon’s The Deuce is like TV from pre-woke (missing it’s a show by known lefty David Simon and about misogyny in the 70s porn industry and one woman who empowers herself in spite of that), she complained about men making pancakes for their children and how men are being “pussy-fied” and finally she complained about how you can’t smoke anywhere inside because of the wokies. I mentioned that banning smoking is not woke. She said, “of course you would say that. You are a leftist wokie” and I firmly responded with clear irritation in my voice, “I don’t want to hear about woke anymore, I don’t want to be called wokie. it’s insulting and I just don’t want to hear it. It’s a meaningless word used just to complain about whatever the complainers want to complain about. Usually just anything progressive” I bit my tongue and did not mention how I really feel about “anti-wokies” – people complaining about woke are, in my mind, bigots. Although, I was clearly irritated and feel I did my best to consciously be inappropriately angry also refraining from using other terms I associate with anti-woke people like racist, and in her case lobster.
I think I appropriately set a boundary on the subject with her. I could have maybe been a little smoother with it She seemed to have gotten the message and sent the following text message,
Her: No more of the w word... Ok? We fine? You fine? Good
Awesome! We came to a productive agreement! We had a few more silly messages after that until,
Her: it's happening! He's doing it!!!!! Jordan Peterson University - Opening 2023!!!!.
Me: let's wait and see how that one works out. Especially after a few months ago said he will no longer advise students because being associated with him was detrimental to their career. So that seems a little conflicting with the ideal of a University. Trump University!!
Her: Peterson's will have the best of the best professors all the ones that were fired or canceled
Me: Let’s see. (In my head I had more critical things to say, but decided to just respond neutrally with “let’s see”)
Her: Damn I could call you but then again, I have to be so careful with my words. Of course, I don't get offended! I said that so you realize how ridiculous it sounds. Nothing and nobody offends a human being because it's what you make of it. It's not what life throws at you is how one reacts. Nothing touches me except lack of freedom to be myself. I don't see how we can continue being friends, dude, seriously.
Me: When you call me names directly, like the other night, wokie, leftist, i am reacting as offended because I am offended, it's a pejorative and I let you know. it is frequent. I'm not sure you're aware you talk about "wokies" almost.......every.......conversation. It's contentious material, it's tiring. I take insult at being called wokie and annoyed by it, it is a pejorative and that's how I read it. I'm not limiting anybody's freedom, you be you, but I'm not interested in what the wokies are doing and don't want to hear about it.
Her: And when you have mention your opinions on Peterson "evil motherfucher" Trump or anyone republican who has a conservative opinion I have found it annoying but NEVER have I told you " You can't speak about that with me" NEVER! You cancelled me dude, think about it. It's so intolerant I can't tolerate it.
Her: And I may not be interested in oh so many topics you talk about but I let you fucking rant over and over and over again.
Her: I rant about wokies or any other topic you let me rant, only fair in a true friendship
Her: That's what finally got me, it doesn't seem like an equal friendship. For god's sake I let you insult me daily, A DUDE and you gonna turn around and fucking cancel me.
Her: When I call you names it's offensive, when you call me names you're "just teasing" Untucking believable
We ruthlessly tease each other all the time, but this is different. I’m just tired of any complaints of woke and all of it, whether from her or anybody else. This is at least to me something entirely different and something I’d like to put a stop to. whether she understands it or not, when she sincerely complains about woke people only to turn around and call me one, I read it as a tacit insult. I’m really not that insulted by being called names, but I am just over all the wokie nonsense and bigotry. I did my best to be properly assertive and use “I” statements and a shortened for of DEARMAN by Describing, Expressing my feelings, being Assertive to explain my point of view. I know I was probably not perfect, but I was trying to make it unconfrontational and to make it clear that “I” felt this way and set it up in a way that there is no argument to be had with the intent of avoiding an argument. I did waver over mentioning how she complains about woke “almost.......every.......conversation” but thought it was relevant and accurate. I used the word “contentious” on purpose because what she talks about is contentious. Most people know not to bring up politics around people that they know don’t agree with them. I tried to keep the subject limited to this one thing and how “I” am feeling.
If she was really upset about any insult I’ve used, she could of and should have told me. I would have stopped. She even writes that she never asked me to stop with any of the insults I have made. That’s on her.
What frustrated me more than anything is how she straight up went full on right-wing claims of her “freedom” being limited, her being “canceled” and invalidating my feeling by implying that I shouldn’t be offended because she doesn’t get offended. I’m truthfully not very offended but just really, really, really, really annoyed. I find her statements and worldview disagreeable at best, and distasteful and just awful. Clearly there has been a growing divergence of values between us and maybe we are just growing apart. Yeah I made fun of Peterson here but only because she brought him up. Yeah, I made a comparison to Trump and his university. I used to complain about Trump to her, but it’s been two years that he’s been out of the need to discuss him. Yes, I used to make fun or Jordan Peterson a lot, but out of politeness and to avoid further discussion of “woke” and gender politics with her.
My frustration about this has been building for some time without telling her. I have been questioning whether we can remain friends and have known that one day I would have to say something about this. Clearly, I’m not “canceling” her, but from my point of view, I’m setting a boundary and removing myself from any further conversations about this stuff.
How do I respond in a mature way? If it’s a final message to her, it’s a final message.
It’s been just over a week since her last message. I had put her on do not disturb after I told her I was offended about being called names because honestly, I knew she would argue back and I needed a break. I’m thinking that I should just reinforce my position by repeating, “When you call me names directly, like the other night, wokie, leftist, I am reacting as offended because I am offended, it's a pejorative and I let you know. It's contentious material, it's tiring. I take insult at being called wokie and annoyed by it, it is a pejorative and that's how I read it.”
I do not want to argue and feel that there is nothing to argue about. If she wants to just invalidate my feelings on this, I won’t respond and leave it at that. At that point, it’s just conflicting values. It sucks, but I feel in this case that there is not anything to negotiate beyond something like, “I’d love to remain friends, but I will leave any conversation if the topic turns to woke”
Why do you need to respond? Just don’t engage with the lunacy any longer. Your silence will be deafening.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:09 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:09 PM on February 21, 2023
Block and move on. Your friend is trash and not worth any more of your time.
posted by heatherlogan at 12:13 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by heatherlogan at 12:13 PM on February 21, 2023
You said what you wanted, you set a boundary, and the other person responded to it with strong feelings. It is ok to not respond, and to not engage.
As my therapist once put it, if someone is lobbing garbage at you, you don't have to catch it. You can just let it fall, and walk out of the room, leaving them with stinky garbage.
posted by Sparky Buttons at 12:15 PM on February 21, 2023
As my therapist once put it, if someone is lobbing garbage at you, you don't have to catch it. You can just let it fall, and walk out of the room, leaving them with stinky garbage.
posted by Sparky Buttons at 12:15 PM on February 21, 2023
I had a relative go down this path & there was absolutely nothing I could do to change the trajectory for her. I tried for years to be open, patient, talk through things, be someone openly queer in her life who might make her realize all she was hearing were lies. But nothing worked. You'll feel grief, but the best thing to do is just not engage anymore with her.
posted by augustimagination at 12:18 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by augustimagination at 12:18 PM on February 21, 2023
This person is being abusive towards you. She's not interested in how you feel about anything, she is not being a friend to you. You don't owe her anything. I would simply block her and then just do whatever I could to validate and process my irritated/angry/hurt feelings.
You have responded in a mature way -- very mature! Any more responses, in my view, would be immature. If you need to send a final message (though I'd wonder why you want to?), I think that praemunire's answer is perfect. Anything else would just be you getting your last digs in. Why bother?
posted by pazazygeek at 12:18 PM on February 21, 2023
You have responded in a mature way -- very mature! Any more responses, in my view, would be immature. If you need to send a final message (though I'd wonder why you want to?), I think that praemunire's answer is perfect. Anything else would just be you getting your last digs in. Why bother?
posted by pazazygeek at 12:18 PM on February 21, 2023
How do I respond in a mature way? If it’s a final message to her, it’s a final message.
If for whatever reason you want to somehow try for this to not be the final message between you, then say "I'm sorry I've called you things that made you feel lousy or annoyed. I didn't realize that was the effect on you. Now that I do, I'll stop, and please call me out if I say things that are disrespectful without realizing, because I care about you and don't want to disrespect you. I hope you'll do the same for me. This is something I care about very much."
Will that do any good? Probably not. The other option is to just not respond, or, if you want to be really good, send a short goodbye message saying thank for the friendship and that you think you've become different people and may she have a wonderful future.
posted by trig at 12:20 PM on February 21, 2023
If for whatever reason you want to somehow try for this to not be the final message between you, then say "I'm sorry I've called you things that made you feel lousy or annoyed. I didn't realize that was the effect on you. Now that I do, I'll stop, and please call me out if I say things that are disrespectful without realizing, because I care about you and don't want to disrespect you. I hope you'll do the same for me. This is something I care about very much."
Will that do any good? Probably not. The other option is to just not respond, or, if you want to be really good, send a short goodbye message saying thank for the friendship and that you think you've become different people and may she have a wonderful future.
posted by trig at 12:20 PM on February 21, 2023
It sucks, but I feel in this case that there is not anything to negotiate beyond something like, “I’d love to remain friends, but I will leave any conversation if the topic turns to woke”
There is not even this to negotiate. You will never have a conversation with this person that isn't about a firehose of racist, bigoted horseshit because that is now the sum total of her life and interest.
Your response: "I agree, I have valued your friendship greatly in the past but it's clear we simply do not have much to offer each other anymore. Best of luck to you!"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:21 PM on February 21, 2023
There is not even this to negotiate. You will never have a conversation with this person that isn't about a firehose of racist, bigoted horseshit because that is now the sum total of her life and interest.
Your response: "I agree, I have valued your friendship greatly in the past but it's clear we simply do not have much to offer each other anymore. Best of luck to you!"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:21 PM on February 21, 2023
The mature thing to do is to stop engaging with people who espouse terrible beliefs.
When you're a teenager and some kids in your friend group are, and I'm dating myself, recreating scenes from Jackass, the mature thing to do is to stop participating in those activities so you don't hurt yourself.
Stop participating in conversations with this person, you are only hurting yourself.
posted by phunniemee at 12:30 PM on February 21, 2023
When you're a teenager and some kids in your friend group are, and I'm dating myself, recreating scenes from Jackass, the mature thing to do is to stop participating in those activities so you don't hurt yourself.
Stop participating in conversations with this person, you are only hurting yourself.
posted by phunniemee at 12:30 PM on February 21, 2023
I'd be tempted if you are going to send a final message to say something like 'this isn't fun anymore, I'm out, best of luck for the future'. I feel like that maybe gets across something of what's actually been lost for her personally in her tedious right wing obsession, and subtly suggests a path out without being easily dismissed as earnest or ideological or 'cancel culture'
posted by mosswinter at 12:34 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by mosswinter at 12:34 PM on February 21, 2023
I always come back to this tweet. Certainly the usage has evolved to encompass other forms of bigotry, but getting into the habit of hearing it as a slur is quite instructive.
posted by staggernation at 12:49 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by staggernation at 12:49 PM on February 21, 2023
I don't see that a response is really necessary. She has shown you exactly what she thinks and it is highly doubtful that you would be able to change her mind with one last word. Ghost her and let her reach her own conclusions.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 12:50 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by tafetta, darling! at 12:50 PM on February 21, 2023
If somebody prefers some stupid internet ideology to actual interactions with real people, well, you have the power to make that happen for them.
posted by kevinbelt at 12:52 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by kevinbelt at 12:52 PM on February 21, 2023
Gonna take a different approach here.
This is about her, not you. But you’re making it a bit about yourself. It sounds like this approach gives her a sense of righteousness that feels like power. It’s likely that she’s feeling a sense of powerlessness in other parts of her life, and turning to right wing extremism. And you asking her to not communicate in that way (which is totally reasonable) makes her feel shamed or powerless. I’m not saying this is right, but I think that’s how these things go.
So:
Focus on what you want to see more of. If she says stuff about anti-wokeness, just don’t respond. You might share a link to something completely unrelated that you’ll both enjoy. If she asks why you’re ignoring her, just say that you want to talk about stuff you both enjoy because you want to feel more connected to her.
At some level conflicts are not about politics, they’re about the emotions or fears that are elicited when politics are spoken about. You’re both turning the conversation into a power struggle, and you’re participating in it, too, by trying to change her.
Stop, and look for common ground.
It’s when we feel trusting and communicative of each other that minds actually change. You’ve got to get to that place, first. Ideological righteousness don’t work, even on the left, and I’ve seen many liberal-to-lefty queer/poc/radical/protest groups foment distrust and breakup communities because righteousness dominates over kindness. Even in this thread, these kinds of statements (“your friend is trash”, “ghost her”) make me shake my head in sadness, because it’s all part of the same antagonistic righteous mindset.
Just: focus on what you want to see more of. Your friend wants to be friends with you! Perhaps this is a really interesting and meaningful lesson, and one that can teach you by trying to understand where she is coming from. What in her life pushes her in this direction? What is she worried or fearing, and believing that this direction holds answers?
posted by many more sunsets at 1:05 PM on February 21, 2023
This is about her, not you. But you’re making it a bit about yourself. It sounds like this approach gives her a sense of righteousness that feels like power. It’s likely that she’s feeling a sense of powerlessness in other parts of her life, and turning to right wing extremism. And you asking her to not communicate in that way (which is totally reasonable) makes her feel shamed or powerless. I’m not saying this is right, but I think that’s how these things go.
So:
Focus on what you want to see more of. If she says stuff about anti-wokeness, just don’t respond. You might share a link to something completely unrelated that you’ll both enjoy. If she asks why you’re ignoring her, just say that you want to talk about stuff you both enjoy because you want to feel more connected to her.
At some level conflicts are not about politics, they’re about the emotions or fears that are elicited when politics are spoken about. You’re both turning the conversation into a power struggle, and you’re participating in it, too, by trying to change her.
Stop, and look for common ground.
It’s when we feel trusting and communicative of each other that minds actually change. You’ve got to get to that place, first. Ideological righteousness don’t work, even on the left, and I’ve seen many liberal-to-lefty queer/poc/radical/protest groups foment distrust and breakup communities because righteousness dominates over kindness. Even in this thread, these kinds of statements (“your friend is trash”, “ghost her”) make me shake my head in sadness, because it’s all part of the same antagonistic righteous mindset.
Just: focus on what you want to see more of. Your friend wants to be friends with you! Perhaps this is a really interesting and meaningful lesson, and one that can teach you by trying to understand where she is coming from. What in her life pushes her in this direction? What is she worried or fearing, and believing that this direction holds answers?
posted by many more sunsets at 1:05 PM on February 21, 2023
I think what non-conservatives may not appreciate sufficiently is that conservative 'ideas' are so self contradictory that when they’re sitting by themselves in a room, or even with other conservatives, their beliefs have an alarming tendency to self destruct, either by imploding or simply falling apart.
Which leaves them oddly dependent on debate with liberals to maintain these ideas, both by projecting their own doubts onto to liberals and attacking them in that embodiment, and by generating so much passion that they don’t care that they’re obviously wrong and only want to win.
So she needs the name calling and all that crap much more than you do.
You can take advantage of that with a Rogerian approach of reflecting what she says back to her in neutral terms that make the absurdity inescapable, and also by being amused at the things she believes, because so much of it would be funnier than hell if it weren’t for the fact that it’s destroying lives and tearing society apart.
Whether the friendship would survive that I don’t know, but it might make you feel less stressed, and it would tend to put the onus of ending it on her instead of you.
posted by jamjam at 1:13 PM on February 21, 2023
Which leaves them oddly dependent on debate with liberals to maintain these ideas, both by projecting their own doubts onto to liberals and attacking them in that embodiment, and by generating so much passion that they don’t care that they’re obviously wrong and only want to win.
So she needs the name calling and all that crap much more than you do.
You can take advantage of that with a Rogerian approach of reflecting what she says back to her in neutral terms that make the absurdity inescapable, and also by being amused at the things she believes, because so much of it would be funnier than hell if it weren’t for the fact that it’s destroying lives and tearing society apart.
Whether the friendship would survive that I don’t know, but it might make you feel less stressed, and it would tend to put the onus of ending it on her instead of you.
posted by jamjam at 1:13 PM on February 21, 2023
Why do you want to be this accommodating to someone else's hatred? Why do you enjoy relationships (with women) that rely heavily on verbal abuse?
It's not okay, neither of you are okay, and your two choices here are a) walk away because this well is so poisoned b) draw a line with this person, and make it spine-shaped as you explain you're zero interested in the entire topic from here forward, and you've also realized the two of you have engaged in such a sick-system relationship you should both step back and do some self-examination about why being vile is so rewarding.
"I am uninterested in this bigotry." "I am not going to debate the humanity of actual people." "It's not okay to talk about other people/me like this." "The name-calling and verbal abuse isn't okay and I realize how wrong it is to make that the cornerstone of a friendship, so I am not going to do it anymore and I need you to stop doing it to me (and everyone else)."
Chronic misanthropy is not healthy - you have fucked around and found that out, and helped make this person who they are today. If you can't make a real effort to repair that, move on. Find people you can talk to with love and respect about what you admire or want to see made better in the world, and with whom you can discuss your concerns with empathy, not what and who you hate only to score ball-busting points.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:14 PM on February 21, 2023
It's not okay, neither of you are okay, and your two choices here are a) walk away because this well is so poisoned b) draw a line with this person, and make it spine-shaped as you explain you're zero interested in the entire topic from here forward, and you've also realized the two of you have engaged in such a sick-system relationship you should both step back and do some self-examination about why being vile is so rewarding.
"I am uninterested in this bigotry." "I am not going to debate the humanity of actual people." "It's not okay to talk about other people/me like this." "The name-calling and verbal abuse isn't okay and I realize how wrong it is to make that the cornerstone of a friendship, so I am not going to do it anymore and I need you to stop doing it to me (and everyone else)."
Chronic misanthropy is not healthy - you have fucked around and found that out, and helped make this person who they are today. If you can't make a real effort to repair that, move on. Find people you can talk to with love and respect about what you admire or want to see made better in the world, and with whom you can discuss your concerns with empathy, not what and who you hate only to score ball-busting points.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:14 PM on February 21, 2023
You have set the boundary condition (you don't want to be called woke/hear her vent about stuff she thinks is woke). What are you doing to enforce it? Because all you can do is enforce the condition for you. A boundary is not "don't call me woke". A boundary is "I will not participate in this conversation/walk away/end the friendship if you call me woke".
You're in a bad place with this boundary because you set a condition without figuring out what you'd do to enforce it or telling your friend. I understand you thought telling your friend not to call you names or bring up a topic would be enough because you're friends. Unfortunately, as with a lot of dynamics where people need to set boundaries, just asking your friend to stop is not enough.
In an ideal world, you'd be able to say "if you call me woke again, I will leave the conversation" or "if you bring up woke stuff again, I will leave the conversation" and reinforce that by doing so, but honestly in this case it sounds like you're past that point and you just have to leave the conversation. If I wanted to salvage the friendship now or in the future, I might say "I'm sorry if I've teased you in a way that hurt you; if you don't want to be teased, I'll honor that in future. But I am telling you I don't want to be called woke or hear complaints about people doing woke things, and if you can't do that, I'll leave the conversation when you do." or some variation.
Saying it this way will put the ball in her court. And when she comes back to complain what a hypocrite you are, or violate the actual boundary ("or I'll leave the conversation"), you're good to say "I told you I wasn't going to talk about this and I'm not, so I'm done with this conversation".
I think that will end the friendship just as thoroughly as praemunire's equally valid choice, but there's a small chance you'll break her of the habit with you over time. Up to you if you want to make that effort.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:26 PM on February 21, 2023
You're in a bad place with this boundary because you set a condition without figuring out what you'd do to enforce it or telling your friend. I understand you thought telling your friend not to call you names or bring up a topic would be enough because you're friends. Unfortunately, as with a lot of dynamics where people need to set boundaries, just asking your friend to stop is not enough.
In an ideal world, you'd be able to say "if you call me woke again, I will leave the conversation" or "if you bring up woke stuff again, I will leave the conversation" and reinforce that by doing so, but honestly in this case it sounds like you're past that point and you just have to leave the conversation. If I wanted to salvage the friendship now or in the future, I might say "I'm sorry if I've teased you in a way that hurt you; if you don't want to be teased, I'll honor that in future. But I am telling you I don't want to be called woke or hear complaints about people doing woke things, and if you can't do that, I'll leave the conversation when you do." or some variation.
Saying it this way will put the ball in her court. And when she comes back to complain what a hypocrite you are, or violate the actual boundary ("or I'll leave the conversation"), you're good to say "I told you I wasn't going to talk about this and I'm not, so I'm done with this conversation".
I think that will end the friendship just as thoroughly as praemunire's equally valid choice, but there's a small chance you'll break her of the habit with you over time. Up to you if you want to make that effort.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:26 PM on February 21, 2023
I think this friendship is over for now.
But you can still offer a future option: State your boundary (won't talk with you about "woke", won't tolerate being called a "wokie"), and tell her that if she feels she can respect that boundary at some point in the future you'd welcome hearing from her again.
But unless and until she can respect that boundary, don't respond.
Seems likely you'll get an extinction burst of being called a wokie by text. It's ok to mourn the friendship that was if so. And it's ok to mourn the friendship *even if* at some point in the future she decides to respect your boundary and re-engage.
posted by nat at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2023
But you can still offer a future option: State your boundary (won't talk with you about "woke", won't tolerate being called a "wokie"), and tell her that if she feels she can respect that boundary at some point in the future you'd welcome hearing from her again.
But unless and until she can respect that boundary, don't respond.
Seems likely you'll get an extinction burst of being called a wokie by text. It's ok to mourn the friendship that was if so. And it's ok to mourn the friendship *even if* at some point in the future she decides to respect your boundary and re-engage.
posted by nat at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2023
I don't think you should respond. I don't think there's anything clever you can say after a week and I don't think you should give in to the urge to try to have the last word because I think she will want to have the last word. Let her. Your ongoing silence is message enough that she will need to change topic if she wants to interact with you.
posted by plonkee at 1:47 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by plonkee at 1:47 PM on February 21, 2023
I had this same situation. Friend from grade school whom I liked and had been dealt many shitty hands in life, so my tolerance for his whackadoodle stuff was higher than I'd normally allow.
When it finally got too much, I sent a final message that "You and I go all the way back, and you're my brother, but you and I are never going to agree on these things. I've set my boundaries on this, you seem intent on crossing them, and I need to step back. I'll see you down the road."
I thought that was respectful enough, but in the milliseconds before I could block, he squeezed in one last text of "The truth HURTS, doesn't it?!?"
It's OK to divorce friendships. I don't regret splitting with him, I just feel sad about it sometimes. He needed help, and not help I could give.
posted by Capt. Renault at 2:03 PM on February 21, 2023
When it finally got too much, I sent a final message that "You and I go all the way back, and you're my brother, but you and I are never going to agree on these things. I've set my boundaries on this, you seem intent on crossing them, and I need to step back. I'll see you down the road."
I thought that was respectful enough, but in the milliseconds before I could block, he squeezed in one last text of "The truth HURTS, doesn't it?!?"
It's OK to divorce friendships. I don't regret splitting with him, I just feel sad about it sometimes. He needed help, and not help I could give.
posted by Capt. Renault at 2:03 PM on February 21, 2023
You don't need friends like this. The rest of it doesn't really matter, and the time you spend thinking and rethinking everything you, did, and everything they said is just wasted time. Foster friendships with those you enjoy being around and just don't worry about the rest.
It's sad, yes. Take care of yourself. But there is no need to do anything or do the right thing, this friendship is over for you no matter what.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:05 PM on February 21, 2023
It's sad, yes. Take care of yourself. But there is no need to do anything or do the right thing, this friendship is over for you no matter what.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:05 PM on February 21, 2023
You of course can break up with a friend whenever, and your friend sounds like she's really deep down the right-wing rabbit hole.
Assuming this is a friendship you used to value (it sounds like it is?), I would probably send some sort of final message along the lines of "Hey friend, I used to really value our friendship - even if we didn't always see eye-to-eye politically, we could still discuss things and treat each other as complex humans with ideas/thoughts that don't always fit neatly into political boxes. But lately, it seems like your media consumption has made you conclude that anyone with left-of-center views is some identical 'wokie' that all think alike - I'm not offended by this so much as annoyed since it makes any conversation with you impossible - I never feel like you listen to me anymore, you just turn me into some characterture that only exists in the minds of Peterson, Trump, etc. And it feels shitty to be stereotyped and flattened that way - it certainly doesn't feel like friendship."
You might (only if you want) leave open the door for her to contact you should she ever snap out of this bullshit. Especially if she's young - people do change sometimes. And I do think it's worth taking the high road here - as I'm sure you know, part of 'anti-woke' ideology is the view that everyone who is 'woke' hates everyone who is 'non-woke' - you can show her that the antagonism is really more on her end than yours.
posted by coffeecat at 2:30 PM on February 21, 2023
Assuming this is a friendship you used to value (it sounds like it is?), I would probably send some sort of final message along the lines of "Hey friend, I used to really value our friendship - even if we didn't always see eye-to-eye politically, we could still discuss things and treat each other as complex humans with ideas/thoughts that don't always fit neatly into political boxes. But lately, it seems like your media consumption has made you conclude that anyone with left-of-center views is some identical 'wokie' that all think alike - I'm not offended by this so much as annoyed since it makes any conversation with you impossible - I never feel like you listen to me anymore, you just turn me into some characterture that only exists in the minds of Peterson, Trump, etc. And it feels shitty to be stereotyped and flattened that way - it certainly doesn't feel like friendship."
You might (only if you want) leave open the door for her to contact you should she ever snap out of this bullshit. Especially if she's young - people do change sometimes. And I do think it's worth taking the high road here - as I'm sure you know, part of 'anti-woke' ideology is the view that everyone who is 'woke' hates everyone who is 'non-woke' - you can show her that the antagonism is really more on her end than yours.
posted by coffeecat at 2:30 PM on February 21, 2023
My only addition is if you have a 'ruthlessly' teasing relationship with this person or with others, then you should think about that and probably dial it back.
Yes having a friendship where someone tells you regularly the things you like sucks (even if it's music or food) while getting pissy when they express the same comments is not great.
Or, if you are going to ruthlessly make fun of someone, don't get mad if they find their touchpoints and make fun of you. Your friend is not a legislator, and her vote probably doesn't mean that much in the grand scheme of things; so this is mostly about teasing, and less about the actual outcome of her politics.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:46 PM on February 21, 2023
Yes having a friendship where someone tells you regularly the things you like sucks (even if it's music or food) while getting pissy when they express the same comments is not great.
Or, if you are going to ruthlessly make fun of someone, don't get mad if they find their touchpoints and make fun of you. Your friend is not a legislator, and her vote probably doesn't mean that much in the grand scheme of things; so this is mostly about teasing, and less about the actual outcome of her politics.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:46 PM on February 21, 2023
If you respond to this at all I would suggest it NOT be about the content of your disagreements at all. Don’t invite any further discussion about the specifics. Some variant on “this friendship clearly isn’t working for either of us anymore and I don’t want to continue it. Goodbye.” Works fine. Tack on a best of luck, good wishes, let me know if you ever become less of a bigot, depending how sincerely you feel any of those things.
Take the energy you’re spending on thinking about this and spend it figuring out how to nurture friendships that don’t rely on this teasing dynamic, and how you can show up for your friends sooner in the future if you see people going down a path like this, before it gets this bad.
posted by Stacey at 2:54 PM on February 21, 2023
Take the energy you’re spending on thinking about this and spend it figuring out how to nurture friendships that don’t rely on this teasing dynamic, and how you can show up for your friends sooner in the future if you see people going down a path like this, before it gets this bad.
posted by Stacey at 2:54 PM on February 21, 2023
Here's what this might look like to your friend:
You and your maybe-BFF used to 'ruthlessly tease each other all the time.'
But then she called you 'wokie,' and, for no obvious reason, all of a sudden you didn't want to play that game any more.
You asked her to stop using that word with you, and it looks like she did. Then you decided that wasn't enough.
Her: When I call you names it's offensive, when you call me names you're "just teasing" Untucking believable
Your friend is wrong about a lot of things, but she might not be wrong about that one.
posted by box at 3:05 PM on February 21, 2023
You and your maybe-BFF used to 'ruthlessly tease each other all the time.'
But then she called you 'wokie,' and, for no obvious reason, all of a sudden you didn't want to play that game any more.
You asked her to stop using that word with you, and it looks like she did. Then you decided that wasn't enough.
Her: When I call you names it's offensive, when you call me names you're "just teasing" Untucking believable
Your friend is wrong about a lot of things, but she might not be wrong about that one.
posted by box at 3:05 PM on February 21, 2023
I agree that maybe the teasing has gone too far. Should things go forward I think I'll cut out the teasing. Maybe the boundaries have been stepped on too many times. If she hasn't been open enough to step up and let me know when I've upset her then I think the high road would to be avoid any kind of ball-busting behavior going forward. That would be the best way to be going forward.
I've been thinking about what else has been said to nurture better relationships. That's been on my mind already. That's been on my mind almost as long as I've wondered if this friendship is going to work out.
The thing is, I truly detest her views. I know that I have to hear them occasionally from others and can deal with that, but this is too much, and the responses about me "canceling" her and that I shouldn't be offended by anything because she isn't offended by anything, other than obviously this situation. I DETEST her new values and worldview and if she really wants to be that focused then it just isn't going to work. It's pretty gross stuff and Jordan Peterson is getting worse and worse by the day if that is even possible. She's following right along with him.
posted by Che boludo! at 3:16 PM on February 21, 2023
I've been thinking about what else has been said to nurture better relationships. That's been on my mind already. That's been on my mind almost as long as I've wondered if this friendship is going to work out.
The thing is, I truly detest her views. I know that I have to hear them occasionally from others and can deal with that, but this is too much, and the responses about me "canceling" her and that I shouldn't be offended by anything because she isn't offended by anything, other than obviously this situation. I DETEST her new values and worldview and if she really wants to be that focused then it just isn't going to work. It's pretty gross stuff and Jordan Peterson is getting worse and worse by the day if that is even possible. She's following right along with him.
posted by Che boludo! at 3:16 PM on February 21, 2023
Racism, bigotry and hate can always get worse. It's not an ideology that builds anything. It's a death spiral based on feeling persecuted and that there's some vast conspiracy against 'your kind'. Anything done in defense of hate has to have happened because 'they' made the haters do it.
posted by Jacen at 3:35 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by Jacen at 3:35 PM on February 21, 2023
I don't think you should give in to the urge to try to have the last word
I came to say this. It sounds like you still have hope that this might not be the end with this person. You might be right, but getting into an escalating spiral will only make things worse. Drop the rope and let it lie there for a while, and if she comes back and wants to re-engage, remind her of your boundary and stick to it.
You really don't have to explain yourself or persuade her of anything. Your silence will speak much louder than any words. Time will tell whether these beliefs are a temporary aberration or a permanent shift towards bigotry. At that point, you can decide if you are willing to subject yourself to that level of toxicity.
posted by rpfields at 4:00 PM on February 21, 2023
I came to say this. It sounds like you still have hope that this might not be the end with this person. You might be right, but getting into an escalating spiral will only make things worse. Drop the rope and let it lie there for a while, and if she comes back and wants to re-engage, remind her of your boundary and stick to it.
You really don't have to explain yourself or persuade her of anything. Your silence will speak much louder than any words. Time will tell whether these beliefs are a temporary aberration or a permanent shift towards bigotry. At that point, you can decide if you are willing to subject yourself to that level of toxicity.
posted by rpfields at 4:00 PM on February 21, 2023
You can't logic someone's way out of a position they did not logic themselves into. While it might hurt in the short term to lose a BFF, it's also better for your mental health to not have to deal with the exhaustion of trying to parry all their purposely antagonistic conversational thrusts all the damn time.
I DETEST her new values and worldview and if she really wants to be that focused then it just isn't going to work.
Bingo! You just solved your own problem. Tell her you wish her happiness and peace in her life, stop communicating with her, and focus your energy on literally anything else, including your other friends. Life's too short to wade through hip-deep shit all the time on the off chance there's something cool, or something you used to have/know, on the far shore. Stop wading.
I've been thinking about what else has been said to nurture better relationships.
That would involve a mutual interest in said nurturing, and from your description, your friend has no such interest. They are now exclusively interested in being whatever "anti-woke" is, so let them do that on their own.
I'm sorry to sound so binary and final about someone who is clearly close to you, but I have lost a handful of friends to this exact same thing since COVID, and my wife is on the verge of cutting off all communication with her mother because of it. Trust me, you won't get your friend back. She is who she is now, from what you say, and that is just how it's gonna be for her, so you need to decide whether you want to go along for that ride, because that ride is going to happen/is happening, and you won't be able to shape it in any way. It's as simple as that.
posted by pdb at 4:01 PM on February 21, 2023
I DETEST her new values and worldview and if she really wants to be that focused then it just isn't going to work.
Bingo! You just solved your own problem. Tell her you wish her happiness and peace in her life, stop communicating with her, and focus your energy on literally anything else, including your other friends. Life's too short to wade through hip-deep shit all the time on the off chance there's something cool, or something you used to have/know, on the far shore. Stop wading.
I've been thinking about what else has been said to nurture better relationships.
That would involve a mutual interest in said nurturing, and from your description, your friend has no such interest. They are now exclusively interested in being whatever "anti-woke" is, so let them do that on their own.
I'm sorry to sound so binary and final about someone who is clearly close to you, but I have lost a handful of friends to this exact same thing since COVID, and my wife is on the verge of cutting off all communication with her mother because of it. Trust me, you won't get your friend back. She is who she is now, from what you say, and that is just how it's gonna be for her, so you need to decide whether you want to go along for that ride, because that ride is going to happen/is happening, and you won't be able to shape it in any way. It's as simple as that.
posted by pdb at 4:01 PM on February 21, 2023
I've been thinking about what else has been said to nurture better relationships.
That would involve a mutual interest in said nurturing, and from your description, your friend has no such interest. They are now exclusively interested in being whatever "anti-woke" is, so let them do that on their own.
I meant nurturing relationships with OTHERS. Sorry, the keyword is OTHERS - Specifically NOT bigoted OTHERS.
I've also had to cut off a few other family members who have gone full MAGA and QAnon. Family you can't choose. It sucks to have this happen with a friend that I've chosen to have a relationship with for over a decade.
posted by Che boludo! at 5:26 PM on February 21, 2023
That would involve a mutual interest in said nurturing, and from your description, your friend has no such interest. They are now exclusively interested in being whatever "anti-woke" is, so let them do that on their own.
I meant nurturing relationships with OTHERS. Sorry, the keyword is OTHERS - Specifically NOT bigoted OTHERS.
I've also had to cut off a few other family members who have gone full MAGA and QAnon. Family you can't choose. It sucks to have this happen with a friend that I've chosen to have a relationship with for over a decade.
posted by Che boludo! at 5:26 PM on February 21, 2023
You mentioned non violent communication, so I want to share what I've learnt about that.
Non violent communication is about taking responsibility for what you're saying, and making sure that you are not hurting the other person.
It's purpose is not to be a more effective way to get the other person to hear you or agree with you.
You're trying to control your friend with the way you talk. You're still hoping that if you find the right words, she will acknowledge that you are "right".
You want her to at least acknowledge your point of view.
That's very human and understandable! She's your friend and she's hurt you. And you want what's good for her, you want her to let go all this horrible stuff she's become entangled in. That's good, right?
But the bottom line is that you will never find the perfect words to achieve those good things.
You won't find the words that will make you feel heard by her.
You can't make her hear you.
It's incredibly frustrating and sad and I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this.
posted by Zumbador at 8:03 PM on February 21, 2023
Non violent communication is about taking responsibility for what you're saying, and making sure that you are not hurting the other person.
It's purpose is not to be a more effective way to get the other person to hear you or agree with you.
You're trying to control your friend with the way you talk. You're still hoping that if you find the right words, she will acknowledge that you are "right".
You want her to at least acknowledge your point of view.
That's very human and understandable! She's your friend and she's hurt you. And you want what's good for her, you want her to let go all this horrible stuff she's become entangled in. That's good, right?
But the bottom line is that you will never find the perfect words to achieve those good things.
You won't find the words that will make you feel heard by her.
You can't make her hear you.
It's incredibly frustrating and sad and I'm sorry that you're having to deal with this.
posted by Zumbador at 8:03 PM on February 21, 2023
I think the only way forward aside from giving up is to have a few serious, open, vulnerable conversations where you both listen to why the others' views are painful or scary.
After that, you might be able to move on based on shared "this is scary, it's weird that we're so different in spite of the fact that we have so much in common and want the same things out of life, well I guess we'll support the best in each other and ignore the rest now that we understand why all this could be hurtful" stuff.
If not, at least you'll both probably learn something important that might help you communicate with different people in the future.
posted by amtho at 8:57 PM on February 21, 2023
After that, you might be able to move on based on shared "this is scary, it's weird that we're so different in spite of the fact that we have so much in common and want the same things out of life, well I guess we'll support the best in each other and ignore the rest now that we understand why all this could be hurtful" stuff.
If not, at least you'll both probably learn something important that might help you communicate with different people in the future.
posted by amtho at 8:57 PM on February 21, 2023
You have to let your friend go, because she stopped being your friend a while back.
posted by kschang at 9:22 PM on February 21, 2023
posted by kschang at 9:22 PM on February 21, 2023
About this suggestion above from many more sunsets:
Focus on what you want to see more of. If she says stuff about anti-wokeness, just don’t respond.
I'm going to agree, wholeheartedly. If this is someone you love and want to maintain a relationship with, this is a bridge to keep you in contact. I say this because I have a wonderful son who, starting about a year or so before the pandemic, turned very hard toward meme-based conspiracy theory malarky. It was surreal to experience, and I used to work hard to push against it, but after the pandemic began it became genuinely intolerable (I'm an epidemiologist... and he was suddenly an antivax truther who didn't believe the pandemic was real, etc.).
I talked to a therapist about this because it was coming at a tough time, when his bio dad and I were splitting up. The therapist, in different words, mentioned the "focus on what you want to see more of" strategy. You have to be willing to let a huge amount of water to pass under the bridge unacknowledged, in part because the goal is to resist reinforcing whatever narrative has drawn them into this line of thinking. Many more sunsets nails it, this can often (but not always) be correlated with feelings of powerlessness and displacement. In my situation, yeah, sheesh, I could see that—his bio dad had just gone through a personality-altering and traumatic injury that led to him pushing away from his family, we had to put our beloved dog down, I got sick and he had to live with his bio mom while I had surgery, the pandemic began and isolated him even further from friends and social engagement, on and on and on).
What can I do? He's a legal adult now and the best I can do is be here, be stable, and not fall into the trap of reinforcing the narrative that has, in some way, given him some sense of identity or agency that he didn't feel he otherwise had access to. I can hope that he takes his own ath and discovers a way out of that mess. I can't guarantee it, though, and I can't expect that I'm capable of "rescuing" his thinking. I can turn away from the bad, and turn toward the good.
This is a lot of work and heartache. If this friend/BFF of yours is not someone who has redeeming qualities that make you confident that you can put up with this, you will save yourself a lot of heartache by simply ending communication and keeping any incidental communication squarely in that incidental territory. They call it grey rocking in therapy circles and there's a lot of information out there about it.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:36 AM on February 22, 2023
Focus on what you want to see more of. If she says stuff about anti-wokeness, just don’t respond.
I'm going to agree, wholeheartedly. If this is someone you love and want to maintain a relationship with, this is a bridge to keep you in contact. I say this because I have a wonderful son who, starting about a year or so before the pandemic, turned very hard toward meme-based conspiracy theory malarky. It was surreal to experience, and I used to work hard to push against it, but after the pandemic began it became genuinely intolerable (I'm an epidemiologist... and he was suddenly an antivax truther who didn't believe the pandemic was real, etc.).
I talked to a therapist about this because it was coming at a tough time, when his bio dad and I were splitting up. The therapist, in different words, mentioned the "focus on what you want to see more of" strategy. You have to be willing to let a huge amount of water to pass under the bridge unacknowledged, in part because the goal is to resist reinforcing whatever narrative has drawn them into this line of thinking. Many more sunsets nails it, this can often (but not always) be correlated with feelings of powerlessness and displacement. In my situation, yeah, sheesh, I could see that—his bio dad had just gone through a personality-altering and traumatic injury that led to him pushing away from his family, we had to put our beloved dog down, I got sick and he had to live with his bio mom while I had surgery, the pandemic began and isolated him even further from friends and social engagement, on and on and on).
What can I do? He's a legal adult now and the best I can do is be here, be stable, and not fall into the trap of reinforcing the narrative that has, in some way, given him some sense of identity or agency that he didn't feel he otherwise had access to. I can hope that he takes his own ath and discovers a way out of that mess. I can't guarantee it, though, and I can't expect that I'm capable of "rescuing" his thinking. I can turn away from the bad, and turn toward the good.
This is a lot of work and heartache. If this friend/BFF of yours is not someone who has redeeming qualities that make you confident that you can put up with this, you will save yourself a lot of heartache by simply ending communication and keeping any incidental communication squarely in that incidental territory. They call it grey rocking in therapy circles and there's a lot of information out there about it.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 4:36 AM on February 22, 2023
I think in a way, she's right that it's not an equal relationship anymore. The teasing thing used to be mutual, but now your positions are no longer morally equivalent. The tweet staggernation linked to is brilliant. Your friend's use of the word "woke" is indeed bigoted. What she is saying is not just silly blather; it's hate speech. I would tell her that the two of you disagree on too many points and you wish her well and goodbye.
(Probably a lot of people who use "woke" as an insult would express indignation if you told them it was racist, and they might even be genuinely surprised because of the way this kind of language is encoded. Its purpose is to be passed along and accumulated and be able to do its damage without being examined every step of the way and to make people listen to it with a presumption that it's harmless or innocent.)
posted by BibiRose at 7:01 AM on February 22, 2023
(Probably a lot of people who use "woke" as an insult would express indignation if you told them it was racist, and they might even be genuinely surprised because of the way this kind of language is encoded. Its purpose is to be passed along and accumulated and be able to do its damage without being examined every step of the way and to make people listen to it with a presumption that it's harmless or innocent.)
posted by BibiRose at 7:01 AM on February 22, 2023
Her: it's happening! He's doing it!!!!! Jordan Peterson University - Opening 2023!!!!.
I don't understand why you'd respond about this at all. It's not a topic that will be fruitful or productive. It's ok not to engage.
If they can't talk about neutral topics, the friendship is over.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:18 PM on February 23, 2023
I don't understand why you'd respond about this at all. It's not a topic that will be fruitful or productive. It's ok not to engage.
If they can't talk about neutral topics, the friendship is over.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:18 PM on February 23, 2023
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"OK. Best of luck in your future endeavors."
No need to hash out the merits here. If someone says something like that to you, that's usually a solid sign the friendship has run its course. In this particular instance, the people who think this way usually enjoy very much debating whether they are being persecuted or not, more than they value the relationship itself, so there's not much point in substantive engagement.
posted by praemunire at 12:07 PM on February 21, 2023