Looking for writing on how to frame this tradeoff in choosing a college
January 31, 2023 9:02 AM Subscribe
Talking -- even thinking -- about choosing between one with lower cost of attendance and another that's more highly regarded can be a little fraught. Have you ever come across reasoning that changed (or solidified) how you thought about it?
We're in the same position as millions: In a couple of months, our son will get decision letters from a range of schools, and while we're trying not to make it the overriding issue, inherently he'll be choosing a school somewhere on the spectrum between highly regarded college offering little financial aid, on the one end, and less highly regarded school with lower cost of admission at the other.
I think we're also not alone in our thinking's falling prey to a lot of connotations here: that the more highly regarded schools will challenge and engage him more, that his resume will be more impressive, that he 'belongs' at the best school that will admit him (let's say here that 'best' is correlated with average high school GPA and SAT scores of a school's student body, among other things), etc.
Our kid's a smart dude, but he worked pretty hard to get into whatever schools he ends up getting into. It's fine to say that the reward for that will be having a broad range of schools from which to choose, and I'm not saying why should he have worked that hard if he's gonna go someplace he could've gotten into *without* working that hard -- I know an answer or two to that question -- but definitely some part of my brain isn't exactly not saying that.
The upshot: I'm worried that picking a cheaper school will feel a little like failure, to both him and to us, his parents. So I'm eager to see a compelling argument or three that we wouldn't think of on our own; we know that college rankings are sort of a silly concept, that affordability is an important factor, etc., but these things we already know seem trapped in my head -- they don't help at all with this feeling I don't even know how to describe that I get when I imagine our son 'settling' and picking affordability instead of his dream school. I mean, I feel it in my stomach, some sort of sense of impending shame that we're not wealthy enough that this choice wouldn't even be a factor. To be clear, looking to reframe the thinking that led to the feeling more than I'm looking to deal with the fact that I feel it that strongly.
Some specifics that seem relevant:
-- In my son's case, I anticipate we're talking about a ceiling of 'second-tier' schools. I don't think he'll get into any Ivies, and we're not talking about Ivy-adjacent schools like Stanford/Northwestern/Berkeley/Chicago/MIT/Johns Hopkins. I would say there's a level of schools he applied to that we'd be kind of surprised he got into -- Tufts/Williams/Vassar -- and another that seems more in play, ranging in admission rates from Boston College to let's say Brandeis.
-- He wants to teach. He interviewed his principal, and we understand intellectually that no one hires a high school teacher mostly because they did undergrad at Harvard. Also mention this to note that he's not going to be studying STEM, where some schools would seem to be worth paying more for. He'll also need to get a Masters degree, and of course he could apply somewhere highly regarded for that, even if he chose a lower-regarded school for undergrad.
-- I believe he'd have a good shot to get into the honors program at the state university he's applied to. I think his principal sounded like that would make more of an impression on him as a job interviewer than would attending a more highly regarded school.
-- Our income and assets put us in this sweet spot where for all the more highly regarded schools to which he applied, we should expect little to no financial aid. If we paid sticker price for one of those schools, we wouldn't starve, but we'd have much less security, savings-wise, at the end of four years, and both our son and we would owe a LOT on loans. I believe we'd be able to also pay for a fifth year of school for his Masters, but a potential sixth year (there are a few different ways to acquire the degree) might be tricky.
Can you point me to any argument someone's made that might change the way we think of these cheaper, easier-to-get-into schools?
We're in the same position as millions: In a couple of months, our son will get decision letters from a range of schools, and while we're trying not to make it the overriding issue, inherently he'll be choosing a school somewhere on the spectrum between highly regarded college offering little financial aid, on the one end, and less highly regarded school with lower cost of admission at the other.
I think we're also not alone in our thinking's falling prey to a lot of connotations here: that the more highly regarded schools will challenge and engage him more, that his resume will be more impressive, that he 'belongs' at the best school that will admit him (let's say here that 'best' is correlated with average high school GPA and SAT scores of a school's student body, among other things), etc.
Our kid's a smart dude, but he worked pretty hard to get into whatever schools he ends up getting into. It's fine to say that the reward for that will be having a broad range of schools from which to choose, and I'm not saying why should he have worked that hard if he's gonna go someplace he could've gotten into *without* working that hard -- I know an answer or two to that question -- but definitely some part of my brain isn't exactly not saying that.
The upshot: I'm worried that picking a cheaper school will feel a little like failure, to both him and to us, his parents. So I'm eager to see a compelling argument or three that we wouldn't think of on our own; we know that college rankings are sort of a silly concept, that affordability is an important factor, etc., but these things we already know seem trapped in my head -- they don't help at all with this feeling I don't even know how to describe that I get when I imagine our son 'settling' and picking affordability instead of his dream school. I mean, I feel it in my stomach, some sort of sense of impending shame that we're not wealthy enough that this choice wouldn't even be a factor. To be clear, looking to reframe the thinking that led to the feeling more than I'm looking to deal with the fact that I feel it that strongly.
Some specifics that seem relevant:
-- In my son's case, I anticipate we're talking about a ceiling of 'second-tier' schools. I don't think he'll get into any Ivies, and we're not talking about Ivy-adjacent schools like Stanford/Northwestern/Berkeley/Chicago/MIT/Johns Hopkins. I would say there's a level of schools he applied to that we'd be kind of surprised he got into -- Tufts/Williams/Vassar -- and another that seems more in play, ranging in admission rates from Boston College to let's say Brandeis.
-- He wants to teach. He interviewed his principal, and we understand intellectually that no one hires a high school teacher mostly because they did undergrad at Harvard. Also mention this to note that he's not going to be studying STEM, where some schools would seem to be worth paying more for. He'll also need to get a Masters degree, and of course he could apply somewhere highly regarded for that, even if he chose a lower-regarded school for undergrad.
-- I believe he'd have a good shot to get into the honors program at the state university he's applied to. I think his principal sounded like that would make more of an impression on him as a job interviewer than would attending a more highly regarded school.
-- Our income and assets put us in this sweet spot where for all the more highly regarded schools to which he applied, we should expect little to no financial aid. If we paid sticker price for one of those schools, we wouldn't starve, but we'd have much less security, savings-wise, at the end of four years, and both our son and we would owe a LOT on loans. I believe we'd be able to also pay for a fifth year of school for his Masters, but a potential sixth year (there are a few different ways to acquire the degree) might be tricky.
Can you point me to any argument someone's made that might change the way we think of these cheaper, easier-to-get-into schools?
The greatest gift my parents gave me was paying for my state school tuition and letting me start adult life with zero student debt. It's such a huge advantage when you are starting out.
Obviously, I was very privileged to be in that position, but it is not something my parents could have done for me if I'd gone to a private college or university. To me, the thinking that a "cheaper" school in inherently a worse choice is just part of how the higher education system scams you into saddling your kid with debt they might never get rid of.
posted by cakelite at 9:05 AM on January 31, 2023 [29 favorites]
Obviously, I was very privileged to be in that position, but it is not something my parents could have done for me if I'd gone to a private college or university. To me, the thinking that a "cheaper" school in inherently a worse choice is just part of how the higher education system scams you into saddling your kid with debt they might never get rid of.
posted by cakelite at 9:05 AM on January 31, 2023 [29 favorites]
Does he have long-term plans?
If he wants to teach, and wants a master's right away, one school might have a better runway for that which overall is cheaper/better/whatever (e.g., Boston College's Urban Catholic Teacher Corps, which trades a degree for two years of teaching in a locla, Catholic school plus living in community).
Or some schools with a desirable masters-level program -- e.g., Physician Assistant -- give preference to their own undergrads.
Anyway, if he has serious, specific plans for the long term, that can factor into the choice of undergrad, and change the cost equation.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:15 AM on January 31, 2023
If he wants to teach, and wants a master's right away, one school might have a better runway for that which overall is cheaper/better/whatever (e.g., Boston College's Urban Catholic Teacher Corps, which trades a degree for two years of teaching in a locla, Catholic school plus living in community).
Or some schools with a desirable masters-level program -- e.g., Physician Assistant -- give preference to their own undergrads.
Anyway, if he has serious, specific plans for the long term, that can factor into the choice of undergrad, and change the cost equation.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:15 AM on January 31, 2023
In our case, the specific offers of each school really mattered. My kid got into one of the schools you mention, and their financial aid has been more generous than I would have anticipated. And it comes with a host of ancillary benefits: any kid who gets any amount of financial aid also gets free books, free lab fees, free summer storage, etc. It was shocking, that first semester, to hear that my kid's required books would've cost $800, but were instead free!
So I'd say...wait and see? Sorry, I know that is very hard!
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:16 AM on January 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
So I'd say...wait and see? Sorry, I know that is very hard!
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:16 AM on January 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
I went to a state school for undergrad and a highly regarded private for grad school. The educational aspects of both were extremely similar, though I did have one professor who wrote the book at the private school (he didn't offer discounts).
The social opportunities at the more expensive and exclusive school were better, but you had to be the type of person to take advantage of them, and be interested in a field where they were useful. That would not be a public school teacher.
I actually preferred the atmosphere of the bigger state school.
Your kid may want to be a teacher now, but I didn't pick my major until my sophmore year. If I had to guess my future career when I was in high school, there is no way I'd have gotten it right.
So: if your kid is able and interested in network opportunities, then choose the more expensive school. If he likes the atmosphere better, choose the more expensive school. Otherwise, choose the one you can afford.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:19 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
The social opportunities at the more expensive and exclusive school were better, but you had to be the type of person to take advantage of them, and be interested in a field where they were useful. That would not be a public school teacher.
I actually preferred the atmosphere of the bigger state school.
Your kid may want to be a teacher now, but I didn't pick my major until my sophmore year. If I had to guess my future career when I was in high school, there is no way I'd have gotten it right.
So: if your kid is able and interested in network opportunities, then choose the more expensive school. If he likes the atmosphere better, choose the more expensive school. Otherwise, choose the one you can afford.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:19 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
My second and third kids are in college now, and I work in .edu. Two of them opted for the honors program, and the third didn't. (Lord knows what the fourth will do when she gets there...)
Honors programs vary widely, but the best of them offer really amazing opportunities for education, better courses, experiences, early registration [and thus a shot at better classes], travel, better housing, relationships with faculty, etc.
A really good honors program can elevate the experience at "just" a state school over being a middle-of-the-pack student at a fancy-pants school.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:20 AM on January 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Honors programs vary widely, but the best of them offer really amazing opportunities for education, better courses, experiences, early registration [and thus a shot at better classes], travel, better housing, relationships with faculty, etc.
A really good honors program can elevate the experience at "just" a state school over being a middle-of-the-pack student at a fancy-pants school.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:20 AM on January 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Our local town has a state university that offers its own scholarship programs on top of the state-lottery-dollar-funded student aid program. A student with a decent GPA and ACT score will receive enough scholarship money to cover basically everything except room and board. We live in town, so that bit's not critical for us.
The discussion we've had with the kids is this: you can graduate from a well-regarded state school with zero (or very minimal) debt. This is the deal to beat. Suppose you want to go out of state (and one kid did). In that case, the responsibility for loans will fall to you alone. You will need to seriously consider your career prospects (work? continued school?) after graduation, and how they will affect your ability to service the debt.
My experience has been that the name of the school might matter for some fields. After that first job, nobody cares and being debt-free (or close to it) trumps other considerations.
posted by jquinby at 9:22 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
The discussion we've had with the kids is this: you can graduate from a well-regarded state school with zero (or very minimal) debt. This is the deal to beat. Suppose you want to go out of state (and one kid did). In that case, the responsibility for loans will fall to you alone. You will need to seriously consider your career prospects (work? continued school?) after graduation, and how they will affect your ability to service the debt.
My experience has been that the name of the school might matter for some fields. After that first job, nobody cares and being debt-free (or close to it) trumps other considerations.
posted by jquinby at 9:22 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
A few things:
Highly-ranked schools are ranked that way at least partly due to the Research and Grant Funding of Professors. There's a pretty clear inverse correlation between research and teaching and class sizes.
Ask your child to think about whether they'd rather be in (A) an 800 person introductory class which is functionally taught by graduate students supervised by a prof whose main focus is research, vs. (B) 20-40 person class taught by a professor who loves teaching.
Similar questions shoud be asked about lifestyle - living on campus in dorms, off campus (but nearby walk to campus) vs. commuting, can make a huge difference in the college experience.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 9:22 AM on January 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Highly-ranked schools are ranked that way at least partly due to the Research and Grant Funding of Professors. There's a pretty clear inverse correlation between research and teaching and class sizes.
Ask your child to think about whether they'd rather be in (A) an 800 person introductory class which is functionally taught by graduate students supervised by a prof whose main focus is research, vs. (B) 20-40 person class taught by a professor who loves teaching.
Similar questions shoud be asked about lifestyle - living on campus in dorms, off campus (but nearby walk to campus) vs. commuting, can make a huge difference in the college experience.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 9:22 AM on January 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Totally agree with BlahLaLa, you really have no idea how cost plays out until you have offers in front of you.
I've worked in higher ed for a decade now. Colleges and universities are big complex places, and try as we might to rank them from best to less, these things aren't what matter. What you should be weighing against cost is how the student feels about being there. That may be because of programs, culture, climate, or whatever. I have a fancy selective private liberal arts degree and that was right for me, but I can also see how I could have been just as successful in the right Big 10 school.
posted by advicepig at 9:23 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've worked in higher ed for a decade now. Colleges and universities are big complex places, and try as we might to rank them from best to less, these things aren't what matter. What you should be weighing against cost is how the student feels about being there. That may be because of programs, culture, climate, or whatever. I have a fancy selective private liberal arts degree and that was right for me, but I can also see how I could have been just as successful in the right Big 10 school.
posted by advicepig at 9:23 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The advantages of "prestigious" schools is real, but it has some major caveats:
* It's much, much more significant in some industries than in others.
* It drops off very, very rapidly below the "fanciest" schools for any given industry.
Inasmuch as he already has plans, they're to teach. Which means:
* He's unlikely to make much money to pay down massive debts, even if he ends up with a very prestigious schooling pedigree. One of my exes went into staggering debt to get an M.Ed from an Ivy and found herself teaching alongside colleagues who mostly went to mid-tier public universities.
* He's unlikely to experience maximum benefit from Fancy Schooling compared to industries like tech or finance where the absolute top tier do have real benefits for initial jobs
I'm going to echo those who suggest that being among the strongest students at a 'lesser' school is probably going to be much better for social, financial, and even academic reasons than being in the middle of the pack at the fanciest possible school.
I'll also note that if your income level is such that money is real for you and you even think about this kind of thing, he stands a relatively strong chance of feeling lonelier and more isolated at a more prestigious school where more of the population is flat-out wealthy.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:24 AM on January 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
* It's much, much more significant in some industries than in others.
* It drops off very, very rapidly below the "fanciest" schools for any given industry.
Inasmuch as he already has plans, they're to teach. Which means:
* He's unlikely to make much money to pay down massive debts, even if he ends up with a very prestigious schooling pedigree. One of my exes went into staggering debt to get an M.Ed from an Ivy and found herself teaching alongside colleagues who mostly went to mid-tier public universities.
* He's unlikely to experience maximum benefit from Fancy Schooling compared to industries like tech or finance where the absolute top tier do have real benefits for initial jobs
I'm going to echo those who suggest that being among the strongest students at a 'lesser' school is probably going to be much better for social, financial, and even academic reasons than being in the middle of the pack at the fanciest possible school.
I'll also note that if your income level is such that money is real for you and you even think about this kind of thing, he stands a relatively strong chance of feeling lonelier and more isolated at a more prestigious school where more of the population is flat-out wealthy.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:24 AM on January 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
If he wants to teach, he should go do his undergraduate work where they teach teachers: a state college or university.
Save the expensive tuition for the masters degree. For jobs that demand a graduate degree, no one cares where you were as an undergraduate.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:26 AM on January 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
Save the expensive tuition for the masters degree. For jobs that demand a graduate degree, no one cares where you were as an undergraduate.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:26 AM on January 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
"more of the population is flat-out wealthy"
Very true - some schools have more than 20% of their students from families in the top 1% income bracket: NYtimes
posted by soylent00FF00 at 9:28 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Very true - some schools have more than 20% of their students from families in the top 1% income bracket: NYtimes
posted by soylent00FF00 at 9:28 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I was a TA teaching research methods at a prestigious school, one of the examples of spuriousness (used in part to unsettle the students, I suspect) was a study of the causal effects of attending an Ivy on career outcomes. Conclusion: None. A student who GETS INTO an ivy would do just as well in life whether they attended the ivy or not.
The study was done, in part, by comparing people who were offered admission to Ivies but went to lower-tier schools instead to those were admitted and went to the Ivies. And of course lots of fancy stats to control for all kinds of differences. They concluded that all else being equal (and in the case of an individual, all else is kind of equal) students did not get any long-term benefit (to whatever career outcome was studied -- probably income) from attending the Ivy. If you're the kind of person who can do all the right things to get into an ivy, you're the kind of person who can do all the right things to have a great career. It's not that going to ivies helps, it's that the kind of people who go to ivies are the same kinds of people who do well in their careers.
Now the problem -- of course noted by the researchers -- could always be that there was SOMETHING different about these students who turned down the ivy and it wasn't measured in the study (and thus not controlled for.) Second caveat was that this is just one outcome. Maybe the experience would be more enjoyable or rewarding at some schools than others. Maybe some schools are better-suited to your son's lifestyle or social preferences. I don't think "how will he make the most money" is necessarily the only or primary outcome your son might consider.
And of course, I looked but I can't find the study. I'm sure it was done by economists, cause doesn't it just sound like something economists would do?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:35 AM on January 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
The study was done, in part, by comparing people who were offered admission to Ivies but went to lower-tier schools instead to those were admitted and went to the Ivies. And of course lots of fancy stats to control for all kinds of differences. They concluded that all else being equal (and in the case of an individual, all else is kind of equal) students did not get any long-term benefit (to whatever career outcome was studied -- probably income) from attending the Ivy. If you're the kind of person who can do all the right things to get into an ivy, you're the kind of person who can do all the right things to have a great career. It's not that going to ivies helps, it's that the kind of people who go to ivies are the same kinds of people who do well in their careers.
Now the problem -- of course noted by the researchers -- could always be that there was SOMETHING different about these students who turned down the ivy and it wasn't measured in the study (and thus not controlled for.) Second caveat was that this is just one outcome. Maybe the experience would be more enjoyable or rewarding at some schools than others. Maybe some schools are better-suited to your son's lifestyle or social preferences. I don't think "how will he make the most money" is necessarily the only or primary outcome your son might consider.
And of course, I looked but I can't find the study. I'm sure it was done by economists, cause doesn't it just sound like something economists would do?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:35 AM on January 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Somehow I missed that your son wants to teach; he should absolutely not go into debt for a degree if he intends to teach.
Source: married to a teacher with substantial experience in public/parochial K-12 environments and is working towards a pivot to dual-enrollment instruction for HS seniors/rising college freshmen.
posted by jquinby at 9:39 AM on January 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
Source: married to a teacher with substantial experience in public/parochial K-12 environments and is working towards a pivot to dual-enrollment instruction for HS seniors/rising college freshmen.
posted by jquinby at 9:39 AM on January 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
In the state where I live, one of the second-tier state universities (Directional State Universities, like Central State University and Northern State University) has a very highly-regarded school of education, and, as another example not relevant to your son's situation, a Speech Language Pathology program that is more highly-regraded than the local Big 10 nationally-ranked school. If a young person wanted to teach in our state, that Directional State University could very well be their best choice. It's significantly cheaper, and the people who hire teachers know they've been well-educated there.
The only reasons to go to the Big 10 school, or a private school, or an out-of-state school, for that degree would be "soft" factors, like prestige, or wanting that big-school experience, or wanting to live in a certain area.
posted by Well I never at 9:40 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
The only reasons to go to the Big 10 school, or a private school, or an out-of-state school, for that degree would be "soft" factors, like prestige, or wanting that big-school experience, or wanting to live in a certain area.
posted by Well I never at 9:40 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Undergraduate education is basically the same everywhere. It’s not like he’d read Dickens at Harvard and Dr. Seuss at State U. (If anything, given prevailing academic trends, it would be more likely to be the opposite.) So perceived academic rigor isn’t worth paying extra for. What is worth paying extra for is choices: greater breadth of majors and courses, more opportunities for things like internships or original student research, more extracurricular activities, a broader range of socioeconomic backgrounds among the student body, etc. The irony is that most of these advantages belong to large state schools rather than smaller but more “prestigious” private schools.
I grew up in a town with a highly-regarded but not elite private school, maybe 2000 students. It offered maybe a couple dozen majors, mostly traditional stuff like English and political science. I’m sure they tried to incorporate nomwhite/non-Western topics and writers into the curriculum, but they just didn’t have the resources for a Sub-Saharan African Literature department. Most of the students were suburban white kids from within the state, and the ones who weren’t were likely suburban white kids from out of state. Very few Sidney’s of color, very few poor kids. There were like four fraternities and four sororities, and like 80% of the student body belonged to one of them.
I attended a big state school, 50,000 kids. I knew kids from a couple dozen states just in my freshman dorm, including quite a few people of color (one of whom I formed a rap group with!!!). Over 200 majors, over 200 registered clubs. Dozens of fraternities and sororities, and yet something like 65% of students weren’t Greek. I played a half full of intramural sports and tried out for the ultimate frisbee team. I took multiple classes on sub-Saharan Africa even though that wasn’t even my major. I think I did a pretty good job of taking advantage of the opportunities I had in college , but even so I still think about how much I could have done. You’d need ten years to do everything.
That the school I went to was cheaper was just an added bonus.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:46 AM on January 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
I grew up in a town with a highly-regarded but not elite private school, maybe 2000 students. It offered maybe a couple dozen majors, mostly traditional stuff like English and political science. I’m sure they tried to incorporate nomwhite/non-Western topics and writers into the curriculum, but they just didn’t have the resources for a Sub-Saharan African Literature department. Most of the students were suburban white kids from within the state, and the ones who weren’t were likely suburban white kids from out of state. Very few Sidney’s of color, very few poor kids. There were like four fraternities and four sororities, and like 80% of the student body belonged to one of them.
I attended a big state school, 50,000 kids. I knew kids from a couple dozen states just in my freshman dorm, including quite a few people of color (one of whom I formed a rap group with!!!). Over 200 majors, over 200 registered clubs. Dozens of fraternities and sororities, and yet something like 65% of students weren’t Greek. I played a half full of intramural sports and tried out for the ultimate frisbee team. I took multiple classes on sub-Saharan Africa even though that wasn’t even my major. I think I did a pretty good job of taking advantage of the opportunities I had in college , but even so I still think about how much I could have done. You’d need ten years to do everything.
That the school I went to was cheaper was just an added bonus.
posted by kevinbelt at 9:46 AM on January 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
BC or Brandeis types are sufficiently "name brand" that I would definitely decide based on the long-term financial impact (on both yourselves and your son) along with your choices about location, etc.
A degree with good grades from this level school gets you into a well-respected teaching Masters program easily.
posted by mmf at 9:50 AM on January 31, 2023
A degree with good grades from this level school gets you into a well-respected teaching Masters program easily.
posted by mmf at 9:50 AM on January 31, 2023
inherently he'll be choosing a school somewhere on the spectrum between highly regarded college offering little financial aid, on the one end, and less highly regarded school with lower cost of admission at the other.
In my experience both for undergrad and grad school, it was the reverse of this: higher ranked places were able to offer much more aid, so the cost of attending was lower. The same has happened for friends' kids more recently, also.
So like others have said, you'll need to see what offers come in to really make these assessments.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:00 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
In my experience both for undergrad and grad school, it was the reverse of this: higher ranked places were able to offer much more aid, so the cost of attending was lower. The same has happened for friends' kids more recently, also.
So like others have said, you'll need to see what offers come in to really make these assessments.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:00 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not undergrad, but I went to the most highly-ranked law school I got into, thinking that its national reputation would assist me wherever in the country I ended up wanting to practice. I had a full ride to a couple of third-tier but regionally influential schools but passed those up.
What I've since learned is that national reputation without an on-the-ground network of connections was not particularly helpful to me. In my case, it would likely have been better to have decided where I wanted to practice, and applied to the regional law schools which dominate that region. If I'd known I wanted to stay in the upper midwest, for instance, I should have accepted the full ride at Michigan State. I paid, and am still paying (or will be, after the student loan moratorium expires) for flexibility that has little benefitted me. I didn't end up practicing all over the country; I ended up practicing in the Northeast, where I have family.
To be sure, law school is a different endeavor than undergrad, but if your son is truly likely to pursue teaching, and knows where in the country he wants to live, then it may well be worthwhile for him to take the lower tuition at the regional school. What feels like settling in your late teens might feel like financial freedom in your mid-twenties.
posted by gauche at 10:24 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
What I've since learned is that national reputation without an on-the-ground network of connections was not particularly helpful to me. In my case, it would likely have been better to have decided where I wanted to practice, and applied to the regional law schools which dominate that region. If I'd known I wanted to stay in the upper midwest, for instance, I should have accepted the full ride at Michigan State. I paid, and am still paying (or will be, after the student loan moratorium expires) for flexibility that has little benefitted me. I didn't end up practicing all over the country; I ended up practicing in the Northeast, where I have family.
To be sure, law school is a different endeavor than undergrad, but if your son is truly likely to pursue teaching, and knows where in the country he wants to live, then it may well be worthwhile for him to take the lower tuition at the regional school. What feels like settling in your late teens might feel like financial freedom in your mid-twenties.
posted by gauche at 10:24 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can only say that the name recognition of my excellent university has absolutely been worth it. It has allowed me to ‘mess up,’ get derailed, waste years, and get right back on track in an excellent grad school program. If I had gone to a less selective undergrad, none of my jobs would’ve taken a chance on me, and I highly doubt I would’ve gotten into my grad program at all. Also, I’m a total introvert, but can also say the connections others made in undergrad changed their life trajectories. Also, the actual education I received continues to serve me in daily life and every day in grad school too. It was, simply, an excellent education. I sat in on friends’ classes at even slightly less illustrious schools, and it was a shocking contrast. My education was SO much better than any of theirs. I can only speak to my experience, but it was like a lifelong insurance policy for me on many levels.
posted by asimplemouse at 10:50 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by asimplemouse at 10:50 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Your child has already achieved the most important outcome of college preparatory high school: they have learned to work hard for something they care about. They have learned to grow themselves, and become able to do more than they could do previously. Whether or not they go to a prestigious school, this is already a great victory, and something that they, and you, can be proud of.
You don't need a prestige degree to become a teacher. You do need to be able to survive on a teacher's salary, though, which points in the direction of going to the less expensive school. I agree with others who have said to look for honors programs, and looking for combined bachelors/masters programs. The honors will increase the quality of the college experience (and increase the prestige), and the combined program will lower the cost.
You child will also thank you in later years if you and your spouse save enough money for your own retirement. You won't be doing your kid a favor by shortchanging your retirement savings. Prioritize your ability to support yourself in your later years, so your kid can continue to live their own life.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:51 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
You don't need a prestige degree to become a teacher. You do need to be able to survive on a teacher's salary, though, which points in the direction of going to the less expensive school. I agree with others who have said to look for honors programs, and looking for combined bachelors/masters programs. The honors will increase the quality of the college experience (and increase the prestige), and the combined program will lower the cost.
You child will also thank you in later years if you and your spouse save enough money for your own retirement. You won't be doing your kid a favor by shortchanging your retirement savings. Prioritize your ability to support yourself in your later years, so your kid can continue to live their own life.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 10:51 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
My parents’ deal with me was that they’d pay for state school or they’d cover the cost of state school at a private college. I took the Forbes deal and graduated without student loans. Not having loans was an incredible gift. I have never regretted going to state school.
The state school honors programs I know of are very solid. A concern I often hear with state schools is that you’re just a number. That wasn’t my experience and that really was not the case for the folks I know who did the honors program.
Similarly, I felt like at state school, I had to advocate for myself to get the opportunities that I wanted. That alone was a worthwhile experience. I bugged my advisor and went to office hours. Doing those things helped me grow as a person.
Also, if it turns out he dislikes state school, he can transfer.
posted by kat518 at 10:59 AM on January 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
The state school honors programs I know of are very solid. A concern I often hear with state schools is that you’re just a number. That wasn’t my experience and that really was not the case for the folks I know who did the honors program.
Similarly, I felt like at state school, I had to advocate for myself to get the opportunities that I wanted. That alone was a worthwhile experience. I bugged my advisor and went to office hours. Doing those things helped me grow as a person.
Also, if it turns out he dislikes state school, he can transfer.
posted by kat518 at 10:59 AM on January 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
The arguments that are most compelling to me are the ones about the impact student loan debt has on life after college. Here's a series of links about that impact. But in a nutshell, student loan debt has been shown to limit your future career choice and delay when you are able to buy a home, get married, or have children.
Obviously the details of your individual finances and the actual schools in question matter here and none of this is black and white. Student loan debt doesn't ruin everyone's life and there are a lot of situations where it is worth taking on. But teaching is a notoriously low-paying profession, and I know a lot of teachers who are in their 30s and 40s now and wish they had "settled" for a less expensive college instead of "settling" on never owning a home.
posted by mjcon at 11:00 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Obviously the details of your individual finances and the actual schools in question matter here and none of this is black and white. Student loan debt doesn't ruin everyone's life and there are a lot of situations where it is worth taking on. But teaching is a notoriously low-paying profession, and I know a lot of teachers who are in their 30s and 40s now and wish they had "settled" for a less expensive college instead of "settling" on never owning a home.
posted by mjcon at 11:00 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
First, major respect for your son for choosing education. I’m in my 16th year of teaching and love going to work every single day, which is rare for any job so I’m lucky. A lot of people leave teaching but a lot of people stay and many even love it too. Ultimately, the most important thing for new teachers is being in an environment with good support and mentors.
I am a public schoolteacher with fancy degrees from private schools in the US plus public universities abroad. I love learning and am a lifelong nerd with pride. In my speciality, even in undergrad we were reading a novel per week in each of my German lit classes while some colleagues who went to less prestigious schools read way less (but some read the same too, I’m sure.) I’m glad to have my education but even more glad not to have debt thanks to hard work, merit-based aid, and other forms of privilege like knowing how to obtain those scholarships. In any case, I teach a speciality and it’s cool but, almost everywhere, all teachers make the same amount of money based on factors unrelated to prestige of their degrees. Many of the best elementary school teachers I’ve known went to a former normal schools, not flagship or so-called top-tier state schools. Arguably, good teachers will be great regardless of their alma mater; education at its best is a calling but technique certainly can be honed. I don’t think you need a fancy education to have a good education, which my studies abroad certainly showered me. The systems are different though so it’s not quite a fair comparison. Higher ed in the US is both amazing and a racket, and it’s a true shame that becoming a schoolteacher is so fucking hard and bureaucratic. I got in through the side door and I’m grateful but that’s harder these days.
Also to consider: I am glad for my background but sometimes tbh it makes me different than some of my colleagues. I’m not better or worse but different, more intellectual and artsy and alternative than many; the cool thing is that there’s room for all of us! What matters is that we care about the kids! Still I will downplay parts of my education with colleagues and have dealt with jealousy, although that’s not due to education but personality. Also, other times I just don’t feel I relate to their lives, even if I like and respect them. However, I don’t necessarily relate to people who share my elite educational background and work in more “prestigious” careers either. Not that any of things matter but it’s something! After 16 years I finally earn a good salary but in a high cost of living area it’d be extremely hard as a teacher if I were young and had debt too.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:00 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am a public schoolteacher with fancy degrees from private schools in the US plus public universities abroad. I love learning and am a lifelong nerd with pride. In my speciality, even in undergrad we were reading a novel per week in each of my German lit classes while some colleagues who went to less prestigious schools read way less (but some read the same too, I’m sure.) I’m glad to have my education but even more glad not to have debt thanks to hard work, merit-based aid, and other forms of privilege like knowing how to obtain those scholarships. In any case, I teach a speciality and it’s cool but, almost everywhere, all teachers make the same amount of money based on factors unrelated to prestige of their degrees. Many of the best elementary school teachers I’ve known went to a former normal schools, not flagship or so-called top-tier state schools. Arguably, good teachers will be great regardless of their alma mater; education at its best is a calling but technique certainly can be honed. I don’t think you need a fancy education to have a good education, which my studies abroad certainly showered me. The systems are different though so it’s not quite a fair comparison. Higher ed in the US is both amazing and a racket, and it’s a true shame that becoming a schoolteacher is so fucking hard and bureaucratic. I got in through the side door and I’m grateful but that’s harder these days.
Also to consider: I am glad for my background but sometimes tbh it makes me different than some of my colleagues. I’m not better or worse but different, more intellectual and artsy and alternative than many; the cool thing is that there’s room for all of us! What matters is that we care about the kids! Still I will downplay parts of my education with colleagues and have dealt with jealousy, although that’s not due to education but personality. Also, other times I just don’t feel I relate to their lives, even if I like and respect them. However, I don’t necessarily relate to people who share my elite educational background and work in more “prestigious” careers either. Not that any of things matter but it’s something! After 16 years I finally earn a good salary but in a high cost of living area it’d be extremely hard as a teacher if I were young and had debt too.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:00 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
If paying for his college education has a significant impact on your finances, that could make him feel like you have a stake in whatever decisions he makes. He could feel a lot of pressure to stick with the original plan even if he no longer wants to, or a lot of guilt if he ends up, say, dropping out for mental health reasons.
He may decide that he doesn't like the school he chose and wants to try a different one. Or that he wants to switch majors, even though that would mean an extra year of schooling. (Maybe to study something very impractical.) Or that he wants to drop out and work on a farm, or go to culinary school. Will he feel free to make those choices? Do you want him to? Will you feel the money you spent was wasted? Will he feel bad that he wasted your money?
He may develop severe depression or anxiety issues and feel like he needs to take a break, and then he may end up feeling like he just can't go back. How will you feel if that happens after you've paid for two or three years of tuition? How will he feel about how you feel?
posted by Redstart at 11:01 AM on January 31, 2023
He may decide that he doesn't like the school he chose and wants to try a different one. Or that he wants to switch majors, even though that would mean an extra year of schooling. (Maybe to study something very impractical.) Or that he wants to drop out and work on a farm, or go to culinary school. Will he feel free to make those choices? Do you want him to? Will you feel the money you spent was wasted? Will he feel bad that he wasted your money?
He may develop severe depression or anxiety issues and feel like he needs to take a break, and then he may end up feeling like he just can't go back. How will you feel if that happens after you've paid for two or three years of tuition? How will he feel about how you feel?
posted by Redstart at 11:01 AM on January 31, 2023
Setting aside Ivies, any school you've heard of before you were 30 is probably equal prestige for the most part. I'd focus more on where the kid is likely to be happy and therefore likely to be successful: size of student body, if the campus is part of the town or walled off from the town or outside of town, how close or far from home it is. What campus life is like - is there a coffee shop culture, is there a music scene.
The thing to avoid is paying for are schools that are well regarded locally but are "never heard of it" schools to anyone outside the region (unless you know your kid is never moving). An example would be Goucher college in the Baltimore area.
To me, honors colleges have to be explained which makes them kind of a non-starter prestige-wise. They may be good instructional experiences, though.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 11:02 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing to avoid is paying for are schools that are well regarded locally but are "never heard of it" schools to anyone outside the region (unless you know your kid is never moving). An example would be Goucher college in the Baltimore area.
To me, honors colleges have to be explained which makes them kind of a non-starter prestige-wise. They may be good instructional experiences, though.
posted by everythings_interrelated at 11:02 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unless you're really gunning for the nepotistic/cronyism angle, it just doesn't matter much.
What matters more is how the student spends their time there and what they learn and accomplish.
I've taught or done research at a handful of US universities and imo they just aren't as different as non-academics tend to think.
The main differences from an undergrad perspective are the social scene (is it more rich white kids or more diverse?) and the geography (5, 50, 150, and 1000 miles from home are each pretty different).
But really, don't stress it, it will be fine. Just go with your overall gut feelings, and make sure you don't push hard against kid's first choice. There's a whole body of research on decision making, and most of it comes down on the side of trusting your gut for 'important'/major decisions, and saving the obsessing over details for things like buying a new dishwasher.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:03 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
What matters more is how the student spends their time there and what they learn and accomplish.
I've taught or done research at a handful of US universities and imo they just aren't as different as non-academics tend to think.
The main differences from an undergrad perspective are the social scene (is it more rich white kids or more diverse?) and the geography (5, 50, 150, and 1000 miles from home are each pretty different).
But really, don't stress it, it will be fine. Just go with your overall gut feelings, and make sure you don't push hard against kid's first choice. There's a whole body of research on decision making, and most of it comes down on the side of trusting your gut for 'important'/major decisions, and saving the obsessing over details for things like buying a new dishwasher.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:03 AM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
You're his parent and know him. If he's really sincerely intent on becoming a k12 teacher -- if this isn't this year's equivalent of when he wanted to be a fire truck when he grows up -- then he'd see very little "real" benefit from going to a fancy private school over Big State U.
Much of the advantage of fancy private schools is that you spend formative years living with the sons of big fancy executives and other rich dinguses as well as with some number of folks who are pathological-level driven, and those people and their parents can help you get ahead. But this matters much more for people trying to get into hedge funds or with that utterly burning need to be the next Conan O'Brien than it does for someone who wants to teach middle-school social studies. Being besties with the son of a General Dynamics exec can help you get an internship at GD but doesn't help land a job in Alachua County Schools. If he's likely to not actually go into education or to bounce out of education, then the network he builds here (if he's the sort of kid that builds networks) might give him a much better second-career or alternate-career than if he went to Big State U.
If you're in one of those states where lots of state elites go to the flagship state university -- PA, TX, OH -- then going to that school with future governors and state-level education muckymucks might be better than going away to a private school because those people will be relevant to his life as a teacher and might be able to help him move into state-level educ bureaucracy if that turns out to be his thang. This applies much less in states like NY where state-level elites mostly don't go to suny undergrad.
The other thing that occurs to me in cases like this is my own history. So my father was killed by the Air Force shortly before I was born, which meant that there was still most of his blood money in an account when I was 18 in 1988, and I decided to spend not quite all of this going out of state to UVa. I figured out a couple of years ago that if I had gone to UF for free and dumped that money into Cisco and then Amazon or Apple, it would be worth several hundred million dollars up to around a billion.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:07 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Much of the advantage of fancy private schools is that you spend formative years living with the sons of big fancy executives and other rich dinguses as well as with some number of folks who are pathological-level driven, and those people and their parents can help you get ahead. But this matters much more for people trying to get into hedge funds or with that utterly burning need to be the next Conan O'Brien than it does for someone who wants to teach middle-school social studies. Being besties with the son of a General Dynamics exec can help you get an internship at GD but doesn't help land a job in Alachua County Schools. If he's likely to not actually go into education or to bounce out of education, then the network he builds here (if he's the sort of kid that builds networks) might give him a much better second-career or alternate-career than if he went to Big State U.
If you're in one of those states where lots of state elites go to the flagship state university -- PA, TX, OH -- then going to that school with future governors and state-level education muckymucks might be better than going away to a private school because those people will be relevant to his life as a teacher and might be able to help him move into state-level educ bureaucracy if that turns out to be his thang. This applies much less in states like NY where state-level elites mostly don't go to suny undergrad.
The other thing that occurs to me in cases like this is my own history. So my father was killed by the Air Force shortly before I was born, which meant that there was still most of his blood money in an account when I was 18 in 1988, and I decided to spend not quite all of this going out of state to UVa. I figured out a couple of years ago that if I had gone to UF for free and dumped that money into Cisco and then Amazon or Apple, it would be worth several hundred million dollars up to around a billion.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:07 AM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
My entire education and now career in academia have been at state flagship public universities; I have a *lot* of teacher friends in my network from all of institutions I have attended/worked at.
Big advantages:
-Tuition, tuition, tuition. I have friends who had to take out loans and have been able to pay them off in reasonable time frames while working in a state with *abysmal* teacher pay.
-Local network connections. All the teachers in the area and education faculty at the university know each other because they all went to state university, and have worked together on student intern placements for 20 years.
-5 year BA + MA programs, with certification to teach in the state at the end. In most cases, you're looking at a guaranteed auto-admit into the MA program as long as you kept your grades up to the right level; you can also be assured of having completed all of the required coursework. (I know someone who switched states/schools, and had to basically do another extra year of coursework. It was not fun.)
-Yes, yes, yes to honors programs. A student in an honors program at a state school is going to have a lot of chances to interact with professors doing research that interests them; that could be more difficult at a fancier school.
Some other things to keep in mind:
-State schools tend to have stricter general education requirements. They're also more likely to take things like AP credits and count them towards gen eds. Smaller liberal arts colleges can sometimes have squishier gen ed requirements/let students forge their own path; they're also getting a little pickier about giving credits for AP exams. This is not true across the board, but it's something to watch out for. Gen ed requirements can be both a good thing and a bad thing! This might give your child a chance to stumble on to something they never heard of and now they want to major in it; on the other hand, they might have to retake Calc I three times to graduate.
-Related to the above, a large state school may have more majors/options if your child changes their mind about their major. (I picked my large state school for this reason-I didn't know what I wanted to major in.)
posted by damayanti at 11:30 AM on January 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Big advantages:
-Tuition, tuition, tuition. I have friends who had to take out loans and have been able to pay them off in reasonable time frames while working in a state with *abysmal* teacher pay.
-Local network connections. All the teachers in the area and education faculty at the university know each other because they all went to state university, and have worked together on student intern placements for 20 years.
-5 year BA + MA programs, with certification to teach in the state at the end. In most cases, you're looking at a guaranteed auto-admit into the MA program as long as you kept your grades up to the right level; you can also be assured of having completed all of the required coursework. (I know someone who switched states/schools, and had to basically do another extra year of coursework. It was not fun.)
-Yes, yes, yes to honors programs. A student in an honors program at a state school is going to have a lot of chances to interact with professors doing research that interests them; that could be more difficult at a fancier school.
Some other things to keep in mind:
-State schools tend to have stricter general education requirements. They're also more likely to take things like AP credits and count them towards gen eds. Smaller liberal arts colleges can sometimes have squishier gen ed requirements/let students forge their own path; they're also getting a little pickier about giving credits for AP exams. This is not true across the board, but it's something to watch out for. Gen ed requirements can be both a good thing and a bad thing! This might give your child a chance to stumble on to something they never heard of and now they want to major in it; on the other hand, they might have to retake Calc I three times to graduate.
-Related to the above, a large state school may have more majors/options if your child changes their mind about their major. (I picked my large state school for this reason-I didn't know what I wanted to major in.)
posted by damayanti at 11:30 AM on January 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
If he wants to teach, he should go do his undergraduate work where they teach teachers: a state college or university.
And to amplify this: in many places, alllll the teachers went to the state university. It builds a consistency of methods as well as a strong hiring network. It helps get practicum placements, and offers access. My oldest wanted to teach, and found that so many of her favorite teachers all went to the same state school.
And if he goes to Fancy Pants University the network he builds there will probably be dispersed across the country, and so of less use to him on a day-to-day basis. Plus, that monthly loan payment is what he could instead use on rent or a house payment or groceries.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:51 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
And to amplify this: in many places, alllll the teachers went to the state university. It builds a consistency of methods as well as a strong hiring network. It helps get practicum placements, and offers access. My oldest wanted to teach, and found that so many of her favorite teachers all went to the same state school.
And if he goes to Fancy Pants University the network he builds there will probably be dispersed across the country, and so of less use to him on a day-to-day basis. Plus, that monthly loan payment is what he could instead use on rent or a house payment or groceries.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:51 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is a common topic of discussion on the College Confidential website. In recent years, the prevailing sentiment is that "prestige" alone is not worth going into debt for and that affordability should always be the first consideration when choosing a school. Always some exceptions of course, but this is solid advice.
As far as practical advice I would give, the first thing is wait until you have all the offers on the table and look at them all. You may be surprised the amount of aid that private institutions give (publics not so much). Once you have your top choices, think about affordability for the long run including grad school. Costs usually go up every year, can you handle that? Can you cover room/board, incidentals, traveling, etc. It's more than you think. Can you cover the minimum if one of you loses your job or are unable to work? Be honest with your kid about what you can afford. Also think about the quality of the program. Is a school well known for a specific program or are they a feeder school for a specific grad program? Many lower-ranked schools have excellent individual programs.
I think you *know* what the right path is for both your son and yourself, but I'm getting the feeling that your real question is how do you feel good about not choosing the "prestige" or "dream" school? Take this from someone who is on the other side, it will sting a bit at first (especially when everyone asks "why isn't he going to X?"), but you will get over it in time. The most important part of the equation is your kid, not the school, and it sounds like he is in a great position to succeed in multiple places. In 5-6 years, your son will be thriving and all this college peer pressure will be a distant memory.
posted by jraz at 11:54 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
As far as practical advice I would give, the first thing is wait until you have all the offers on the table and look at them all. You may be surprised the amount of aid that private institutions give (publics not so much). Once you have your top choices, think about affordability for the long run including grad school. Costs usually go up every year, can you handle that? Can you cover room/board, incidentals, traveling, etc. It's more than you think. Can you cover the minimum if one of you loses your job or are unable to work? Be honest with your kid about what you can afford. Also think about the quality of the program. Is a school well known for a specific program or are they a feeder school for a specific grad program? Many lower-ranked schools have excellent individual programs.
I think you *know* what the right path is for both your son and yourself, but I'm getting the feeling that your real question is how do you feel good about not choosing the "prestige" or "dream" school? Take this from someone who is on the other side, it will sting a bit at first (especially when everyone asks "why isn't he going to X?"), but you will get over it in time. The most important part of the equation is your kid, not the school, and it sounds like he is in a great position to succeed in multiple places. In 5-6 years, your son will be thriving and all this college peer pressure will be a distant memory.
posted by jraz at 11:54 AM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm a teacher with my undergraduate degree from UMASS Boston and my graduate degrees from Harvard. Being a public school teacher meant that my districts paid for my graduate degrees, and I ended up with very little college debt.
Comparatively, one of my kids went to NYU and is in a massive amount of debt. She is also a teacher.
If one is going into teaching, go get the cheapest undergrad you can, because any teacher will tell you that all teacher prep programs are boloney and good teachers learn on the job.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 12:11 PM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Comparatively, one of my kids went to NYU and is in a massive amount of debt. She is also a teacher.
If one is going into teaching, go get the cheapest undergrad you can, because any teacher will tell you that all teacher prep programs are boloney and good teachers learn on the job.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 12:11 PM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Circling back to the original question, "Have you ever come across reasoning that changed (or solidified) how you thought about it?"
What was helpful for my kids, who had lots of good offers to choose among, was to think abut what they wanted in life. Things like owning a house, travel, or a nice car, versus loan payments, limited choices, and more loan payments.
My wife paid for her degree herself, and I work in .edu. The costs of higher ed -- both immediate (books, going out with wealthy friends) as well as long-term -- were something we've always been very clear about. Yes, follow your dreams, but your dreams extend beyond Commencement...and so will those loans.
Ask yourself: when do you want to start being free to choose big things? It boils down to the fact that money won't make you happy, but it does give you opportunities & choices.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:12 PM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
What was helpful for my kids, who had lots of good offers to choose among, was to think abut what they wanted in life. Things like owning a house, travel, or a nice car, versus loan payments, limited choices, and more loan payments.
My wife paid for her degree herself, and I work in .edu. The costs of higher ed -- both immediate (books, going out with wealthy friends) as well as long-term -- were something we've always been very clear about. Yes, follow your dreams, but your dreams extend beyond Commencement...and so will those loans.
Ask yourself: when do you want to start being free to choose big things? It boils down to the fact that money won't make you happy, but it does give you opportunities & choices.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:12 PM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, it's a status thing, and it's really hard to get over, especially in wealthy high schools in the northeast where you are surrounded by so many small liberal arts colleges that charge a fortune. These schools spend TONS of money on marketing to make you feel like you aren't serving your child well if you send them to a public university, especially with fear-mongering stories about big universities, and that just didn't play out for me at the larger public universities I attended or where I have worked. The opportunity to be in an honors program is nothing to sneeze it. Those are often excellent programs with faculty very excited to teach.
But I am trying to imagine the real benefit of attending a second tier private to be a teacher. If your kid will be saddled with debt for those four years, I just don't see how it's worth it. He'd also have wealthier classmates, with more invitations to spend his time outside of class in expensive ways. His whole lifestyle is likely to be more expensive. And his options, after college, will be reduced because he'll be paying back loans (even if there's some version of public loan forgiveness, you still usually have to pay in for ten years).
A large public university will also have tons of clubs and activities and ways to get involved and likely to be more integrated into the local community, which can lead to some great opportunities to be around an even more diverse people.
But the best way to get your kid ready for adult life is to give him a debt-free undergraduate education. Any school is what you make of it, and college is an important time for younger folks to grow up and learn how to live away from home. He can do that very well at State U, not just Private College.
I'd spend some time talking to successful folks who went to State U, so you can calibrate and get a better sense of how many folks go these schools and were very happy with the experience.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:34 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I am trying to imagine the real benefit of attending a second tier private to be a teacher. If your kid will be saddled with debt for those four years, I just don't see how it's worth it. He'd also have wealthier classmates, with more invitations to spend his time outside of class in expensive ways. His whole lifestyle is likely to be more expensive. And his options, after college, will be reduced because he'll be paying back loans (even if there's some version of public loan forgiveness, you still usually have to pay in for ten years).
A large public university will also have tons of clubs and activities and ways to get involved and likely to be more integrated into the local community, which can lead to some great opportunities to be around an even more diverse people.
But the best way to get your kid ready for adult life is to give him a debt-free undergraduate education. Any school is what you make of it, and college is an important time for younger folks to grow up and learn how to live away from home. He can do that very well at State U, not just Private College.
I'd spend some time talking to successful folks who went to State U, so you can calibrate and get a better sense of how many folks go these schools and were very happy with the experience.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:34 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Decide how much you are going to pay, and whether it's ok if he takes out federal loans or not. Tell him that's the max out of pocket budget and he can only pick a college that fits within that budget. (Well, fudge a little so you have scope to be chuck in a tiny amount of $ if his dream school is slightly over).
When the offers come in, let him decide which of the affordable offers he wants to accept.
If he asks for your input before that, let him tell you what he thinks about each of his options and take it from there. Prestige matters some, but so do other factors. The important thing is that you enable him to make his own choice, since he is the person that has to do the work of getting the degree.
Don't get into the "we'd pay full freight for but not for game. It sounds like all of his choices are solid, and all the prestige in the world isn't going to be enough if you spend more on his college than you are really comfortable doing.
posted by plonkee at 12:36 PM on January 31, 2023
When the offers come in, let him decide which of the affordable offers he wants to accept.
If he asks for your input before that, let him tell you what he thinks about each of his options and take it from there. Prestige matters some, but so do other factors. The important thing is that you enable him to make his own choice, since he is the person that has to do the work of getting the degree.
Don't get into the "we'd pay full freight for
posted by plonkee at 12:36 PM on January 31, 2023
I didn't see any mention of scholarships (but to be honest I was skimming). They can help, if he's willing to work at them (I didn't work at them, and so money was more of a component of my school choice than it would be otherwise). That said, I'm nthing state schools - I think you want to hold down tuition, and most state schools have pretty good education programs but also have many other interesting classes to take to "round out his education".
In Florida (not sure if it has extended geographically), the Southern Scholarship Foundation also has another good deal - IF you qualify, you get to live in one of their scholarship houses, which meant for me my housing was taken care of, we bought communal groceries and cooked and ate dinners together (breakfast and lunches were whenever your schedule permitted you to make and eat it yourself or you could use a college meal program). It was like living in a very small dorm with other people like me, and could be something your son would enjoy. I'm not sure what the qualifications are these days, financially.
posted by TimHare at 12:46 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Florida (not sure if it has extended geographically), the Southern Scholarship Foundation also has another good deal - IF you qualify, you get to live in one of their scholarship houses, which meant for me my housing was taken care of, we bought communal groceries and cooked and ate dinners together (breakfast and lunches were whenever your schedule permitted you to make and eat it yourself or you could use a college meal program). It was like living in a very small dorm with other people like me, and could be something your son would enjoy. I'm not sure what the qualifications are these days, financially.
posted by TimHare at 12:46 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
What kind of people does he want as friends and eventual coworkers? Who will have a deeper understanding of a life with hard choices, and understand the world in a textured way to _effectively_ address the core, deeply-felt issues that affect most people (rather than addressing them in a sincere but less understanding way)?
posted by amtho at 12:57 PM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 12:57 PM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I picked the place that gave me more money. ZERO regrets.
I then moved across the country. Nobody I worked with had even heard of my undergrad school. And nobody cared....
It's easier to get hired as a teacher in the state where you did your training because then all your paperwork is in order to be certified. Sometimes it's a giant pain to switch states.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 1:01 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I then moved across the country. Nobody I worked with had even heard of my undergrad school. And nobody cared....
It's easier to get hired as a teacher in the state where you did your training because then all your paperwork is in order to be certified. Sometimes it's a giant pain to switch states.
posted by Ms Vegetable at 1:01 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think the answers to this question have a "generational" color to them -- what I mean is, people who went to college when college was cheaper might have a tendency to say that name recognition is more important, while people who went to college when college was more expensive will say keeping costs lower is more important. I wish people were saying when they went to college.
For myself, I graduated from a small liberal arts college in the early 1990s, out of state from where I went to high school, at a school who's name you would recognize although it is not an ivy. I loved my college experience, but I have often wished I had gone to a state school in my home state instead. After graduation, my college friends dispersed all over the US and the world, so I hit my mid-20s without a local friend network. I look at people who went to state schools, and if they stayed where they went to school, they had a local friend network at that crucial time in their lives, when they were really learning how to be adults. Those friends later went on to be involved in other things like work, kids, relationship stuff, etc. through the years. They have friends with decades-long intimate involvement in their lives. I wish I had that. My college friends are there for me, but it's more mediated, sporadic and distant -- it's not "I'll be there in 20 minutes."
Also, don't discount the value of honors programs at state schools. Those can create a "college within a college" environment, giving your kid a lot of the benefit of what they would get at a smaller school for less cost.
And the debt issue is no joke. I will be paying off my student loans until I turn 60. That's partly because I am lucky to have a very low interest rate, so it makes financial sense to stretch it out. But it has been, and will be, a lifelong tax on my earnings. It's put me behind the curve on everything -- saving for a home, saving for retirement, everything. Going to a less expensive school is a financial gift to your future self. So ask your kid if the name recognition is worth it. Is it worth it to them to have to wait 10 extra years to buy a house, but be able to say "I went to Tufts" (or wherever). The cost issue is much bigger now than it was then, because college is so much more expensive.
And finally, I work in a largish company (around 2k full time employees) and do a lot of hiring, around 10-12 people per year pre-COVID, and 3-4 per year now (although things are picking up again). And I have never, not once, chosen someone for an interview or to hire based on where they did their undergrad. I glance at it to make sure it's a real school (and Google it if it is not one I recognize), but that's it. Although I am NOT in education, many members of my family are, and the "soft" thing that helps them get jobs is their local networks -- other teachers, principles, professors from their college -- not the name recognition of where they did their undergrad.
To sum up, the value of the fancy school would be purely personal -- that is, you and your kid would be proud. They will get a good education wherever they go. So it's a personal call whether that fancy-school cachet is worth enough to you and them.
posted by OrangeDisk at 1:42 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
For myself, I graduated from a small liberal arts college in the early 1990s, out of state from where I went to high school, at a school who's name you would recognize although it is not an ivy. I loved my college experience, but I have often wished I had gone to a state school in my home state instead. After graduation, my college friends dispersed all over the US and the world, so I hit my mid-20s without a local friend network. I look at people who went to state schools, and if they stayed where they went to school, they had a local friend network at that crucial time in their lives, when they were really learning how to be adults. Those friends later went on to be involved in other things like work, kids, relationship stuff, etc. through the years. They have friends with decades-long intimate involvement in their lives. I wish I had that. My college friends are there for me, but it's more mediated, sporadic and distant -- it's not "I'll be there in 20 minutes."
Also, don't discount the value of honors programs at state schools. Those can create a "college within a college" environment, giving your kid a lot of the benefit of what they would get at a smaller school for less cost.
And the debt issue is no joke. I will be paying off my student loans until I turn 60. That's partly because I am lucky to have a very low interest rate, so it makes financial sense to stretch it out. But it has been, and will be, a lifelong tax on my earnings. It's put me behind the curve on everything -- saving for a home, saving for retirement, everything. Going to a less expensive school is a financial gift to your future self. So ask your kid if the name recognition is worth it. Is it worth it to them to have to wait 10 extra years to buy a house, but be able to say "I went to Tufts" (or wherever). The cost issue is much bigger now than it was then, because college is so much more expensive.
And finally, I work in a largish company (around 2k full time employees) and do a lot of hiring, around 10-12 people per year pre-COVID, and 3-4 per year now (although things are picking up again). And I have never, not once, chosen someone for an interview or to hire based on where they did their undergrad. I glance at it to make sure it's a real school (and Google it if it is not one I recognize), but that's it. Although I am NOT in education, many members of my family are, and the "soft" thing that helps them get jobs is their local networks -- other teachers, principles, professors from their college -- not the name recognition of where they did their undergrad.
To sum up, the value of the fancy school would be purely personal -- that is, you and your kid would be proud. They will get a good education wherever they go. So it's a personal call whether that fancy-school cachet is worth enough to you and them.
posted by OrangeDisk at 1:42 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Think of it this way: immediate gratification (4 years of expensive dream school!) vs. long term life (i.e. paying for dream school for decades). Most people (especially teachers/nonSTEM/non-business types) aren't going to be getting richer as life goes on, and tons and tons of people I know who taught have gotten fed up and quit teaching, so I wouldn't expect that he sticks with teaching his entire life. Most 18-year-olds have no clue what they are getting into with student loans and being in that debt for decades, and they probably won't have the option to get a great job that pays that off fast in their 20's. I'd go for cheap over prestige, any day. But I am not a person who gives any kind of shit about prestige, so take that as you will. I might judge best by what activities/options the schools have by comparison more than prestige, as Big Name Schools may have more options in some areas.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:51 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:51 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I'm just gonna gently add that I would not put TOO much stock in his career plans at this point — many, many people discover new paths in college! I think it's great for 18-year-olds to have a plan, but I think it's also important that those plans be very easy to change. I was sure I knew what I wanted to do when I left for college, and it is not at all what I'm doing now, and part of that is because I found new passions in college and was luckily at a [in this case high-prestige brand-name] school where no one was locked in to one specific path.)
posted by Charity Garfein at 2:09 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Charity Garfein at 2:09 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
You have such great feedback and I hope it helps! Here are a few more things to consider:
He should get into the classroom as soon as possible. This gives him experience and will help him see if he truly wants to be a teacher as well as the grades/subjects/type of school he wants to teach at. I was a sub during breaks and tbh I hated it but it let me experience different ages and schools. You can figure out a school's vibe quite quickly and decide if it has the potential to be a good match.
He also can talk to lots of teachers of all ages and get their advice! Usually teachers love helping so they can give him good, honest feedback! And he can get his foot in the door. In fact, maybe he could volunteer now or get paid to be an instructional aide during summer school!
He can reach out to the education departments and organizations for future teachers at the various schools right now. He will likely meet people eager to help and connect and share what they do. Groups of future teachers can be so energetic and devoted and enthusiastic, and it's a fun energy to be part of! If he's torn between two similar state schools, for example, seeing what the education student associations are like could help. For example, he'll want to go to the most supportive place that takes care of their students teachers and then works hard to get students lined up for jobs even before graduation!
posted by smorgasbord at 2:24 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
He should get into the classroom as soon as possible. This gives him experience and will help him see if he truly wants to be a teacher as well as the grades/subjects/type of school he wants to teach at. I was a sub during breaks and tbh I hated it but it let me experience different ages and schools. You can figure out a school's vibe quite quickly and decide if it has the potential to be a good match.
He also can talk to lots of teachers of all ages and get their advice! Usually teachers love helping so they can give him good, honest feedback! And he can get his foot in the door. In fact, maybe he could volunteer now or get paid to be an instructional aide during summer school!
He can reach out to the education departments and organizations for future teachers at the various schools right now. He will likely meet people eager to help and connect and share what they do. Groups of future teachers can be so energetic and devoted and enthusiastic, and it's a fun energy to be part of! If he's torn between two similar state schools, for example, seeing what the education student associations are like could help. For example, he'll want to go to the most supportive place that takes care of their students teachers and then works hard to get students lined up for jobs even before graduation!
posted by smorgasbord at 2:24 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't have anything to hand to read, but I strongly encourage your kiddo to talk to more teachers that he respects and admires, to ask them what mattered for them in their undergrad experience. He also might poke around the grad students in programs he's considering to ask for informational interviews from a student perspective. Hearing about other people's values might help him to articulate his own, from where he can evaluate programs and contextualize aid packages from a place of abundance and connection.
For example, when I was in graduate school, a professor of mine kindly emphasized the importance of personal preferences in choosing a place to do academic work. If you don't like living in a desert, she said, don't choose to do your research in a desert! A lot of what's beneficial about an undergrad degree is the independence and life experience of going off to make it on your own - what does your kiddo think about the climate/transportation options/cultural milieu to explore in the places where possible acceptances are located? Is he generally a city or a country mouse? Would he hate having a winter? Not having a winter?
These kinds of questions can seem frivolous, but I think they are tremendously important for the decision of where to spend four years of a precious human lifetime. My sister saw a university in NYC and fled, screaming, to a bucolic country college: I saw the bucolic country college and fled, screaming, to a university in NYC. Each of our educations were immensely enriched by the connections we made to the place and vibe of the institutions/departments we were interested in. Excited for his upcoming adventure!
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 2:45 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
For example, when I was in graduate school, a professor of mine kindly emphasized the importance of personal preferences in choosing a place to do academic work. If you don't like living in a desert, she said, don't choose to do your research in a desert! A lot of what's beneficial about an undergrad degree is the independence and life experience of going off to make it on your own - what does your kiddo think about the climate/transportation options/cultural milieu to explore in the places where possible acceptances are located? Is he generally a city or a country mouse? Would he hate having a winter? Not having a winter?
These kinds of questions can seem frivolous, but I think they are tremendously important for the decision of where to spend four years of a precious human lifetime. My sister saw a university in NYC and fled, screaming, to a bucolic country college: I saw the bucolic country college and fled, screaming, to a university in NYC. Each of our educations were immensely enriched by the connections we made to the place and vibe of the institutions/departments we were interested in. Excited for his upcoming adventure!
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 2:45 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I went to a very small unprestigious school that I'd never heard of until they offered me full tuition room and board. And my experience was AMAZING. My professors were all tenured and devoted primarily to teaching rather than research, which as an undergrad in liberal arts was far preferable to the alternative. I usually dropped classes if they had more than 15 students because I didn't think they'd have as good discussions. My peers were at similar socioeconomic levels as me so I wasn't being left out of what they did. I was a big fish in a small pond and was accepted to all the grad schools I applied to with fellowships that included living stipends (in liberal arts and professional fields, not sciences). I am still friends with some of my professors to this day, and my daughter is attending the same college.
I went to a more prestigious grad school and in my second year they had me teaching a class I'd never taken before, with no curriculum or training, and I feel very sorry for those 60 students!
posted by metasarah at 3:13 PM on January 31, 2023
I went to a more prestigious grad school and in my second year they had me teaching a class I'd never taken before, with no curriculum or training, and I feel very sorry for those 60 students!
posted by metasarah at 3:13 PM on January 31, 2023
If your son is sure he is going to stay local (within your state or the immediate region), then probably the best career move is to go to one of the top two or three state schools since those form so much of the local networks he would be interacting with. In a lot of states, that's generally going to be University of X, X State U, and/or X Tech that are considered "tops", but often for a specific program like teaching, the best local/regional program is going to be one of the Directional State Universities, as has been mentioned.
But there are pluses to going to a place with a more national recognition, if you want to go to grad school elsewhere or tap into networks beyond the area you are in now. As an undergrad I was a low-performing student at a very good school, and frankly I had a far easier time getting into fancy grad schools than my undergrad grades would have suggested otherwise, because of that name recognition.
What I would never suggest would be going to a lower-tier private school that doesn't offer excellent financial aid. The last thing you want is to be paying top dollar for a place that frankly doesn't reward it. (Lower tier with a full ride? Heck yeah!)
That said, I agree with everyone making the point that the priority is to find an option that doesn't leave your kid saddled with debt or otherwise unhappy. No supposed prestige is worth it, unless you have a near-guarantee of going on to work that pays very well (which sadly, teaching does not).
posted by Dip Flash at 3:30 PM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
But there are pluses to going to a place with a more national recognition, if you want to go to grad school elsewhere or tap into networks beyond the area you are in now. As an undergrad I was a low-performing student at a very good school, and frankly I had a far easier time getting into fancy grad schools than my undergrad grades would have suggested otherwise, because of that name recognition.
What I would never suggest would be going to a lower-tier private school that doesn't offer excellent financial aid. The last thing you want is to be paying top dollar for a place that frankly doesn't reward it. (Lower tier with a full ride? Heck yeah!)
That said, I agree with everyone making the point that the priority is to find an option that doesn't leave your kid saddled with debt or otherwise unhappy. No supposed prestige is worth it, unless you have a near-guarantee of going on to work that pays very well (which sadly, teaching does not).
posted by Dip Flash at 3:30 PM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
First, I agree that you could be surprised in terms of financial aid - sometimes the fancy places have big endowments, and very few people actually pay the sticker price.
I have taught at some fancy places, and some less than fancy places - there are going to be excellent faculty everywhere, and smart students everywhere. The main difference (as I've observed) is the closer you are to a top tier school the more uniform the 'excellence' is, for lack of a better way to put it. The majority of students will be very high performing, as will be the faculty. Whereas in a mid-tier place, it will take a bit of effort on your son's part to figure out who are the best professors are, and where the likeminded students are - but he'll be able to find them.
Big state schools sometimes actually have more resources than some fancy smaller schools. The resources may be competitive - but if your son is ambitious, he should be able to benefit from them. Maybe they have fellowships to off-set study abroad costs, or the ability to get a stipend for doing an unpaid internship - if you end up visiting the big state school, ask about whatever resources may be of interest to your son.
Can you point me to any argument someone's made that might change the way we think of these cheaper, easier-to-get-into schools?
In short, the cheaper, easier-to-get-into state school may very well have more resources available for the students who take the effort to apply/seek them out, and will still have excellent professors and peers. It may require a little more effort on your son's part to figure it out, but as an instructor in higher ed, I don't think it's worth going into debt for the fancier 'brand' name school, unless (as people have pointed out) the goal is to go into certain fields.
posted by coffeecat at 4:11 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have taught at some fancy places, and some less than fancy places - there are going to be excellent faculty everywhere, and smart students everywhere. The main difference (as I've observed) is the closer you are to a top tier school the more uniform the 'excellence' is, for lack of a better way to put it. The majority of students will be very high performing, as will be the faculty. Whereas in a mid-tier place, it will take a bit of effort on your son's part to figure out who are the best professors are, and where the likeminded students are - but he'll be able to find them.
Big state schools sometimes actually have more resources than some fancy smaller schools. The resources may be competitive - but if your son is ambitious, he should be able to benefit from them. Maybe they have fellowships to off-set study abroad costs, or the ability to get a stipend for doing an unpaid internship - if you end up visiting the big state school, ask about whatever resources may be of interest to your son.
Can you point me to any argument someone's made that might change the way we think of these cheaper, easier-to-get-into schools?
In short, the cheaper, easier-to-get-into state school may very well have more resources available for the students who take the effort to apply/seek them out, and will still have excellent professors and peers. It may require a little more effort on your son's part to figure it out, but as an instructor in higher ed, I don't think it's worth going into debt for the fancier 'brand' name school, unless (as people have pointed out) the goal is to go into certain fields.
posted by coffeecat at 4:11 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Honors programs at state universities are not all the same, but some are phenomenal and they sort of split the difference between a large school and a small one. A lot of people who go to a very large or a very small school have regrets and wish they'd done the opposite.
Frank Bruni-- a graduate of the University of North Carolina-- has written Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be (NYT gift link) which I wouldn't give to your kid but it might, or Bruni's further extensive writing on this topic might, make you feel better. (To your kid, it could suggest you regard the college they are going to as a booby prize. And they could rightly object that Bruni is not a good example of anything because he sort of hit the career jackpot as a writer.)
If your choice is between a state school and something more expensive, see what opportunities you can obtain with some of that money you are saving. A friend of mine didn't get into the small, insanely prestigious school she wanted, but she paid a visit to her state university and found she could swing a year abroad while going there, and that's what she did and she was very happy. (Yes sometimes you can get your crazy prestigious school to pay for something like that, but you probably have to be at an income level where you get a lot of financial aid, and you say you are not.)
Let your kid pay a visit, or a repeat visit, to one or two of the likely schools that you can afford, meet some students, read a copy of the school newspaper and see if they can get excited about going.
posted by BibiRose at 4:25 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Frank Bruni-- a graduate of the University of North Carolina-- has written Where You Go is Not Who You'll Be (NYT gift link) which I wouldn't give to your kid but it might, or Bruni's further extensive writing on this topic might, make you feel better. (To your kid, it could suggest you regard the college they are going to as a booby prize. And they could rightly object that Bruni is not a good example of anything because he sort of hit the career jackpot as a writer.)
If your choice is between a state school and something more expensive, see what opportunities you can obtain with some of that money you are saving. A friend of mine didn't get into the small, insanely prestigious school she wanted, but she paid a visit to her state university and found she could swing a year abroad while going there, and that's what she did and she was very happy. (Yes sometimes you can get your crazy prestigious school to pay for something like that, but you probably have to be at an income level where you get a lot of financial aid, and you say you are not.)
Let your kid pay a visit, or a repeat visit, to one or two of the likely schools that you can afford, meet some students, read a copy of the school newspaper and see if they can get excited about going.
posted by BibiRose at 4:25 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Echoing all the other comments saying you can’t compare on price until you see the actual financial aid packages.
Also, although they don’t advertise this, many private schools will consider appeals of the financial aid package. Anecdotally, I’m aware of private schools offering up to $10,000 in additional non-need based scholarship money after the student sent an appeal email.
posted by lumpy at 4:30 PM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, although they don’t advertise this, many private schools will consider appeals of the financial aid package. Anecdotally, I’m aware of private schools offering up to $10,000 in additional non-need based scholarship money after the student sent an appeal email.
posted by lumpy at 4:30 PM on January 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, you can appeal the FA offer!
And yes, there is a SHEDLOAD of scholarships out there, just waiting to be applied for. My kids got tons of scholarships just by dint of applying. We talked about a good narrative to use in the essays, many of which ask similar questions, and then they started writing.
And the 2008 recession caused a sharp reduction in births, which just this week the Chronicle of Higher Education was calling a "cliff" in terms of the drop in college-age kids in the next couple of years. As a result of this on top of COVID, a lot of schools are offering more FA to try to capture the fewer students. My kid got a good offer and then a good scholarship -- and in a totally unprecedented move, the school let him keep both. One of my colleagues in our FA office didn't believe me. :7)
Again, get external scholarship money, and also see what the schools offer. Also factor in stuff like free textbooks (which a few schools offer), or other benefits (maybe free sports tickets, stuff like that). There are tons of costs in higher ed, and some schools are getting creative about the "package" they offer. When you add in the high cost of room & board, it's a very high annual total.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:38 PM on January 31, 2023
And yes, there is a SHEDLOAD of scholarships out there, just waiting to be applied for. My kids got tons of scholarships just by dint of applying. We talked about a good narrative to use in the essays, many of which ask similar questions, and then they started writing.
And the 2008 recession caused a sharp reduction in births, which just this week the Chronicle of Higher Education was calling a "cliff" in terms of the drop in college-age kids in the next couple of years. As a result of this on top of COVID, a lot of schools are offering more FA to try to capture the fewer students. My kid got a good offer and then a good scholarship -- and in a totally unprecedented move, the school let him keep both. One of my colleagues in our FA office didn't believe me. :7)
Again, get external scholarship money, and also see what the schools offer. Also factor in stuff like free textbooks (which a few schools offer), or other benefits (maybe free sports tickets, stuff like that). There are tons of costs in higher ed, and some schools are getting creative about the "package" they offer. When you add in the high cost of room & board, it's a very high annual total.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:38 PM on January 31, 2023
It's definitely true that all but the most elite colleges are very hungry for students right now. Colleges built way up for millennials, the largest population. Now Gen Z (a smaller generation in size, generally the kids of Gen X) is in college, and they don't want to spend as much money (they've heard too many millennial college debt horror stories), and so colleges are in a pickle because they created fancy student rec centers and dorms and all sorts of amenities to lure in millennials and now all that infrastructure is still sitting there, less tempting to the current crop of college-aged people.
posted by bluedaisy at 4:54 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 4:54 PM on January 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think the question you need to really ask yourselves is how certain is your child about what they want to study and their career path. If they are very, very, very, very certain, then you should pick a school that is good in that area. Too be clear the particular school that is good in that subject area may not by "Typical Highly Rated College," but a good state school that has well regarded faculty in that department.
If your child is not sure what they want to major in, then by all means don't feel obligated to go to "Typically Highly Rated College," because they can still explore subject areas and interact with great faculty at any number of other schools.
I would also try to get a handle on how many undergrad classes are actually taught by faculty and not TAs. Not to knock it, I was a great TA and teacher as grad student, but undergrads could also take classes taught by top ranked faculty in my university and department. That matters.
posted by brookeb at 7:12 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
If your child is not sure what they want to major in, then by all means don't feel obligated to go to "Typically Highly Rated College," because they can still explore subject areas and interact with great faculty at any number of other schools.
I would also try to get a handle on how many undergrad classes are actually taught by faculty and not TAs. Not to knock it, I was a great TA and teacher as grad student, but undergrads could also take classes taught by top ranked faculty in my university and department. That matters.
posted by brookeb at 7:12 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Here is my take (I am a professor in higher ed and I also do educational consulting):
With the exception of the absolute top tier "brand" (Harvard, Yale, Stanford) where the cultural capital AND the networking opportunities are exceptional, your son's career prospects will be the same whether he goes to pricy Vassar/Williams or to a decent public university, especially if he can get into the honors program. He will have good quality of instruction everywhere.
If he wants to teach, he will need to do his Master's in Education in many states (at least at some point). That program will matter more than the "brand" of his undergraduate education, and he is more likely to get admitted to a top-tier graduate program with financial aid with a higher GPA, which he might be more likely to earn at a slightly lower tier schools.
And honestly if he wants to teach, the profession is so under-staffed both in terms of actual teacher shortages and in terms of under-qualified teachers that he will be likely to find a solid job coming out of any accredited program.
Most pre-professional Master's programs are not that difficult to get into compared to PhD programs because Master's programs are generally income streams for universities. What is harder is to get merit scholarships to Master's programs (the ones that offer them), and that's where the GPA and other undergraduate achievements come into play.
Now, I went to a small liberal arts college myself, and I understand the enchanting aspects of that undergraduate experience. But my friend from high school went to a big public university one state over, was in the Honors college there, and had a very similar experience -- it was like a SLAC within the large university, with students living and eating together, small class sizes, etc.
In short, I would recommend prioritizing financial factors in this decision given all the information you provided.
Feel free to me-mail me if you have questions about anything I wrote.
posted by virve at 7:21 PM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
With the exception of the absolute top tier "brand" (Harvard, Yale, Stanford) where the cultural capital AND the networking opportunities are exceptional, your son's career prospects will be the same whether he goes to pricy Vassar/Williams or to a decent public university, especially if he can get into the honors program. He will have good quality of instruction everywhere.
If he wants to teach, he will need to do his Master's in Education in many states (at least at some point). That program will matter more than the "brand" of his undergraduate education, and he is more likely to get admitted to a top-tier graduate program with financial aid with a higher GPA, which he might be more likely to earn at a slightly lower tier schools.
And honestly if he wants to teach, the profession is so under-staffed both in terms of actual teacher shortages and in terms of under-qualified teachers that he will be likely to find a solid job coming out of any accredited program.
Most pre-professional Master's programs are not that difficult to get into compared to PhD programs because Master's programs are generally income streams for universities. What is harder is to get merit scholarships to Master's programs (the ones that offer them), and that's where the GPA and other undergraduate achievements come into play.
Now, I went to a small liberal arts college myself, and I understand the enchanting aspects of that undergraduate experience. But my friend from high school went to a big public university one state over, was in the Honors college there, and had a very similar experience -- it was like a SLAC within the large university, with students living and eating together, small class sizes, etc.
In short, I would recommend prioritizing financial factors in this decision given all the information you provided.
Feel free to me-mail me if you have questions about anything I wrote.
posted by virve at 7:21 PM on January 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I'm a prof at a second-tier state school with a good honors college. The most honest argument I would like to make to bright students with options to choose between us and a fancier place is one that I'm pretty sure my admissions and administrators would rather that I don't say out loud. It's this:
Look, at a top-tier school everyone in the room is used to being first in their class. They are all gunning for educational resources: time and attention and support from instructional staff, competitive grants/scholarships (for summer study, research, etc.). Most of those students grapple with the uncomfortable fact that for the first time in their educational lives, they're not that special, and --especially at universities with robust graduate programs -- they're not likely to be anyone's first priority.
Where I am? In any given class, there are maybe one or two students who have that fire in their belly, who are as driven and capable as the smartest students at the much more exclusive, more expensive places like where I went to school. What that means is that if you demonstrate that you are driven, curious, involved...you are already on professors' radar. And it is very easy to get those professors to make you a priority, especially so if it's a school without graduate students. I've never had a student come to my door with a wild idea for an independent study, pet project, or whatever that I've had to turn away. I've mentored students who aren't even in my major through semester-long projects, found them grants to support research and travel to present at conferences, etc. The best students in our program are much busier -- with paying gigs (I'm a music professor), internship/paid work opportunities than they would be in a more elite program simply because there is less competition. I've had several transfer students from top-flight schools like Barnard and NYU thrive in our environment because they had the same talent but much more attention.
posted by dr. boludo at 7:24 PM on January 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Look, at a top-tier school everyone in the room is used to being first in their class. They are all gunning for educational resources: time and attention and support from instructional staff, competitive grants/scholarships (for summer study, research, etc.). Most of those students grapple with the uncomfortable fact that for the first time in their educational lives, they're not that special, and --especially at universities with robust graduate programs -- they're not likely to be anyone's first priority.
Where I am? In any given class, there are maybe one or two students who have that fire in their belly, who are as driven and capable as the smartest students at the much more exclusive, more expensive places like where I went to school. What that means is that if you demonstrate that you are driven, curious, involved...you are already on professors' radar. And it is very easy to get those professors to make you a priority, especially so if it's a school without graduate students. I've never had a student come to my door with a wild idea for an independent study, pet project, or whatever that I've had to turn away. I've mentored students who aren't even in my major through semester-long projects, found them grants to support research and travel to present at conferences, etc. The best students in our program are much busier -- with paying gigs (I'm a music professor), internship/paid work opportunities than they would be in a more elite program simply because there is less competition. I've had several transfer students from top-flight schools like Barnard and NYU thrive in our environment because they had the same talent but much more attention.
posted by dr. boludo at 7:24 PM on January 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I my team actually made a game for a financial literacy nonprofit that helps teens and their parents work through some of these questions!
posted by missjenny at 7:36 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by missjenny at 7:36 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Have you ever come across reasoning that changed (or solidified) how you thought about it?
Not from reading, but rather from my personal experience. I (grudgingly) went to my cheap, local state university for my first and second bachelor's degrees. I went there because it wasn't just cheap, it was free because I got into a very good scholarship program there (actually, it gave me money to attend, in the form of a healthy stipend every semeter). I got into a bunch of fancy universities, but my parents couldn't finance my edcation (and I don't blame them, neither of my older siblings finished university but cost my parents, who never went to college themselves, enormous sums of money in the process). I had a very big chip on my shoulder about that, but I ended up having an undeniably superior experience and education at that humble little state school.
But I felt cheated, so I went to a massive, big-name private university for graduate school. On my own dime. And I have regretted that decision ever since (it's 20 years later and I'm still paying for that loan). THe educational experience there was utter shit, if I may say so. The uni rested on its laurels is how I've come to see it. It turned out to be a pricey networking experience for children of well-connected east coasters and international students who wanted the cachet of living in Washington, DC as a backdrop. I hated every minute of it and resented that I'd been so suckered by the intrigue of what a fancy school seemed to offer.
For an undergrad degree, unless your kid is extremely motivated by the research carried out by a specific researcher or research group at a specific university, the simplest place with the fewest barriers to easy entry and flexibility is where you should be aiming.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:13 AM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not from reading, but rather from my personal experience. I (grudgingly) went to my cheap, local state university for my first and second bachelor's degrees. I went there because it wasn't just cheap, it was free because I got into a very good scholarship program there (actually, it gave me money to attend, in the form of a healthy stipend every semeter). I got into a bunch of fancy universities, but my parents couldn't finance my edcation (and I don't blame them, neither of my older siblings finished university but cost my parents, who never went to college themselves, enormous sums of money in the process). I had a very big chip on my shoulder about that, but I ended up having an undeniably superior experience and education at that humble little state school.
But I felt cheated, so I went to a massive, big-name private university for graduate school. On my own dime. And I have regretted that decision ever since (it's 20 years later and I'm still paying for that loan). THe educational experience there was utter shit, if I may say so. The uni rested on its laurels is how I've come to see it. It turned out to be a pricey networking experience for children of well-connected east coasters and international students who wanted the cachet of living in Washington, DC as a backdrop. I hated every minute of it and resented that I'd been so suckered by the intrigue of what a fancy school seemed to offer.
For an undergrad degree, unless your kid is extremely motivated by the research carried out by a specific researcher or research group at a specific university, the simplest place with the fewest barriers to easy entry and flexibility is where you should be aiming.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:13 AM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
dr. boludo: In any given class, there are maybe one or two students who have that fire in their belly, who are as driven and capable as the smartest students at the much more exclusive, more expensive places like where I went to school.
I made this same argument to my kids: with the variety of offers they had to choose among, I asked if they wanted to be the biggest fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big pond.
There isn't one right answer, but there can be a real difference in opportunities when you're fighting just to be seen by your prof.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:40 AM on February 1, 2023
I made this same argument to my kids: with the variety of offers they had to choose among, I asked if they wanted to be the biggest fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big pond.
There isn't one right answer, but there can be a real difference in opportunities when you're fighting just to be seen by your prof.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:40 AM on February 1, 2023
After scanning all the mostly very good advice, I second the following:
Exposure to college-level thinking changes kids' minds about what they want to major in.
All the schools in your list have adequate brand name recognition.
In any particular state, a degree from that state's best state university is going to be well regarded.
I'd add:
Some individuals take advantage of the opportunities at a huge school, some just get lost.
Some state schools, eg UConn, have programs where you can do the first 2 years at a local "branch" and the final two at the main campus. It's the lower cost option.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:50 AM on February 1, 2023
Exposure to college-level thinking changes kids' minds about what they want to major in.
All the schools in your list have adequate brand name recognition.
In any particular state, a degree from that state's best state university is going to be well regarded.
I'd add:
Some individuals take advantage of the opportunities at a huge school, some just get lost.
Some state schools, eg UConn, have programs where you can do the first 2 years at a local "branch" and the final two at the main campus. It's the lower cost option.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:50 AM on February 1, 2023
Three things I'd add.
The student can change schools in the second year if the school doesn't live up to expectations.
After one gets employment/experience and references from the working world, one's school hardly matters.
Learning is the student's job. The school is a resource. A great name-brand school, such as an Ivy, will do little good if the student doesn't take responsibility and use what it offers.
posted by tmdonahue at 5:58 AM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
The student can change schools in the second year if the school doesn't live up to expectations.
After one gets employment/experience and references from the working world, one's school hardly matters.
Learning is the student's job. The school is a resource. A great name-brand school, such as an Ivy, will do little good if the student doesn't take responsibility and use what it offers.
posted by tmdonahue at 5:58 AM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
If a young person wanted to teach in our state, that Directional State University could very well be their best choice. It's significantly cheaper, and the people who hire teachers know they've been well-educated there.
I want to caution against this for a couple reasons.
1. In ten years of teaching, I have literally never met a teacher who thought they were well prepared by their teaching program, whether undergraduate or graduate. Lucky teachers (including myself) get good student teaching placements and learn that way. Others get thrown in the deep end their first year. Other than student teaching and practica, I promise you, the difference between the "best" teaching program in your state and an alt-cert program is basically nothing. This is unfortunate but true. I have no idea what methodology determines the "best" teaching program in a state, but unless it's solely asking first-year teachers how they feel about their teacher preparation, it's kinda fake.
2. If your son does go into teaching, they are statistically extremely likely to leave the field, and this gets truer every year. As a person who's currently doing this, I'm very grateful that my degrees are from well regarded schools (a SLAC and a flagship state school). This is ALSO true if your son wants to move out of state. Like, I'm from Wisconsin, right? I know all the UW schools and what they're good at, so if I get a job applicant from Wisconsin who went to UW-Stevens Point or Eau Claire or Oshkosh, I can often say "oh, that school is great at xyz". But if the applicant went to Northsoutheastern Nebraska State, I have absolutely no clue what that means, and most folks will assume it just means they couldn't get into the flagship school.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:40 AM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I want to caution against this for a couple reasons.
1. In ten years of teaching, I have literally never met a teacher who thought they were well prepared by their teaching program, whether undergraduate or graduate. Lucky teachers (including myself) get good student teaching placements and learn that way. Others get thrown in the deep end their first year. Other than student teaching and practica, I promise you, the difference between the "best" teaching program in your state and an alt-cert program is basically nothing. This is unfortunate but true. I have no idea what methodology determines the "best" teaching program in a state, but unless it's solely asking first-year teachers how they feel about their teacher preparation, it's kinda fake.
2. If your son does go into teaching, they are statistically extremely likely to leave the field, and this gets truer every year. As a person who's currently doing this, I'm very grateful that my degrees are from well regarded schools (a SLAC and a flagship state school). This is ALSO true if your son wants to move out of state. Like, I'm from Wisconsin, right? I know all the UW schools and what they're good at, so if I get a job applicant from Wisconsin who went to UW-Stevens Point or Eau Claire or Oshkosh, I can often say "oh, that school is great at xyz". But if the applicant went to Northsoutheastern Nebraska State, I have absolutely no clue what that means, and most folks will assume it just means they couldn't get into the flagship school.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:40 AM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you want your grandchildren close by, send your kids to a state school. :)
They are more likely to stay in state long term.
posted by MelissaSimon at 8:34 AM on February 1, 2023
They are more likely to stay in state long term.
posted by MelissaSimon at 8:34 AM on February 1, 2023
The biggest flaw in your reasoning is the idea that you'd get *more* financial aid easier to get into schools. Its the schools with the biggest endowments that can give the most, hands down. If your kid got into a Harvard/MIT/Stanford, that's where he's going to get the most money. He won't get that sort of discount at Boston College. He might get that sort of discount at a well-heeled liberal arts school. But of course, you are going to see savings (comparatively) at state schools.
But you are slicing and dicing there at the top, yo. If your kid is reasonably applying to Williams / Vassar and is likely to get accepted at Boston College or Brandeis... that's elite as shit. You are swallowing a warped pill of perfectionism if that's how you see college acceptance (US News and World Report thanks you!), and I'd suggest a real re-examination of acceptance rates, the number of kids applying to the few thousand seats at Ivies each year.
Also, now that we are in the pandemic era (kids deferring a year or two), the Common App allowing so many applications, more slots for international students to counter austerity, more amazing kids with great grades and experiences are getting rejected at higher numbers. Its real. You should reframe and save yourselves unnecessary angst when the reality is your kid is awesome.
posted by RajahKing at 9:56 AM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
But you are slicing and dicing there at the top, yo. If your kid is reasonably applying to Williams / Vassar and is likely to get accepted at Boston College or Brandeis... that's elite as shit. You are swallowing a warped pill of perfectionism if that's how you see college acceptance (US News and World Report thanks you!), and I'd suggest a real re-examination of acceptance rates, the number of kids applying to the few thousand seats at Ivies each year.
Also, now that we are in the pandemic era (kids deferring a year or two), the Common App allowing so many applications, more slots for international students to counter austerity, more amazing kids with great grades and experiences are getting rejected at higher numbers. Its real. You should reframe and save yourselves unnecessary angst when the reality is your kid is awesome.
posted by RajahKing at 9:56 AM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Vassar meets 100% of the full demonstrated need of all admitted students for all four years.
they have a quick calculator where they'll give you a guestimate what the aid will involve and what your contribution would be. only takes about 3-5 minutes to use;
MyinTuition Cost Estimator
johns Hopkins also offers full financial aid.
They also show the Myintuition estimator
might be worth using just for fun
posted by yyz at 12:41 PM on February 1, 2023
they have a quick calculator where they'll give you a guestimate what the aid will involve and what your contribution would be. only takes about 3-5 minutes to use;
MyinTuition Cost Estimator
johns Hopkins also offers full financial aid.
They also show the Myintuition estimator
might be worth using just for fun
posted by yyz at 12:41 PM on February 1, 2023
Interesting to see how popular this question has been and yet no one has mentioned the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) programs, which would be great to check for a teaching student. I didn’t do these but I had a social worker roommate who was doing this and it seemed to be a good program? (Check the conditions carefully, as with everything. I think the key one with this is needing to stay with qualifying employers the full 10 years or whatever, and they will by definition be lower paying.)
Otherwise I think if your son is strongly set on teaching, you probably want to pick the school with 1) the best teaching masters program / flagship 2) relative to funding, and 3) in a region where he ultimately would like to live. A lot of the previous answers have highlighted the regionality issue well. That way he’ll get a pipeline into the masters program, a strong hiring network, in a good region, with less debt.
Now, it might not be possible to maximize all of these factors, but as a professor (in Australia, but I’m from the US), masters entry is way easier into your same school. I did masters admissions for a while, and it is really so much easier to wave through our own students. So I would suggest checking rankings of the masters programs rather than undergraduate if this is the plan. Indeed, schools tend to specialize a bit, so it’s worth trying to figure out those specialties. Maybe even consider a double major with something interesting like psychology or science to have a speciality?
As to the debt issue, remember that fancy schools may have more money than state schools to give students. I’m not in CS, but, ahem, my (US) private east coast school that is tops in CS (and in drama!) was actually cheaper than my local west coast flagship state school that is also tops in CS. And that was even with in state tuition. Go figure. But also do a cost of living calculator to compare on that front.
Hence my multifactor suggestion - you’ll want to get to a good enough solution, knowing that there are tradeoffs in all possible choices. But I do think the regionality / hiring networks is key.
Once you do have better numbers for offers, you can start to nibble at costs. PSLF, extra scholarship applications, living off campus with roommates vs. expensive dorms. For example, can he take local community college classes in summer before leaving and transfer those in? Transfer credits are a huge savings - maybe try to find out the max allowed and do those in summers, maybe as night classes if working. I have fond memories of taking oceanography as a night class for another science credit. However, I do not especially recommend the strategy I saw with some of our applicants: taking community college classes during the semester - it raises questions as to whether they failed a key class or weren’t good enough to do it at their actual school. (Did they just go looking for the Chegg cheat notes and pick that way? Some were really random.) Especially if students do that as an overload during the semester, which would also compromise performance in other classes, time to make friends and build connections and, well, sleep. Balance is important.
Best of luck with the decision!
posted by ec2y at 1:00 PM on February 1, 2023
Otherwise I think if your son is strongly set on teaching, you probably want to pick the school with 1) the best teaching masters program / flagship 2) relative to funding, and 3) in a region where he ultimately would like to live. A lot of the previous answers have highlighted the regionality issue well. That way he’ll get a pipeline into the masters program, a strong hiring network, in a good region, with less debt.
Now, it might not be possible to maximize all of these factors, but as a professor (in Australia, but I’m from the US), masters entry is way easier into your same school. I did masters admissions for a while, and it is really so much easier to wave through our own students. So I would suggest checking rankings of the masters programs rather than undergraduate if this is the plan. Indeed, schools tend to specialize a bit, so it’s worth trying to figure out those specialties. Maybe even consider a double major with something interesting like psychology or science to have a speciality?
As to the debt issue, remember that fancy schools may have more money than state schools to give students. I’m not in CS, but, ahem, my (US) private east coast school that is tops in CS (and in drama!) was actually cheaper than my local west coast flagship state school that is also tops in CS. And that was even with in state tuition. Go figure. But also do a cost of living calculator to compare on that front.
Hence my multifactor suggestion - you’ll want to get to a good enough solution, knowing that there are tradeoffs in all possible choices. But I do think the regionality / hiring networks is key.
Once you do have better numbers for offers, you can start to nibble at costs. PSLF, extra scholarship applications, living off campus with roommates vs. expensive dorms. For example, can he take local community college classes in summer before leaving and transfer those in? Transfer credits are a huge savings - maybe try to find out the max allowed and do those in summers, maybe as night classes if working. I have fond memories of taking oceanography as a night class for another science credit. However, I do not especially recommend the strategy I saw with some of our applicants: taking community college classes during the semester - it raises questions as to whether they failed a key class or weren’t good enough to do it at their actual school. (Did they just go looking for the Chegg cheat notes and pick that way? Some were really random.) Especially if students do that as an overload during the semester, which would also compromise performance in other classes, time to make friends and build connections and, well, sleep. Balance is important.
Best of luck with the decision!
posted by ec2y at 1:00 PM on February 1, 2023
I'm a higher education scholar. There is solid research that indicates, for undergraduate students, most of the variation in their experiences occurs within and not between institutions. Put another way, students can have really good or really bad experiences at nearly any U.S. college or university - it depends mostly on what they do and with whom they do it, not on the specific institution they attend.
There are a few instances in which someone's undergraduate institution can be important. That's mostly true if someone is planning to immediately go on to graduate school as there are some disciplines where the competition is so fierce that having the right kinds of experiences and recommendations can be important e.g., veterinary school. But those are exceptions to the rule.
(The 2008 annual report from the National Survey of Student Engagement is a good starting point for this body of research.)
posted by ElKevbo at 1:03 PM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are a few instances in which someone's undergraduate institution can be important. That's mostly true if someone is planning to immediately go on to graduate school as there are some disciplines where the competition is so fierce that having the right kinds of experiences and recommendations can be important e.g., veterinary school. But those are exceptions to the rule.
(The 2008 annual report from the National Survey of Student Engagement is a good starting point for this body of research.)
posted by ElKevbo at 1:03 PM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something else to think about: financial aid packages change yearly, and it's often not until August that you get the award. It is not all unheard of for financial aid packages to go WAY down after freshman year, and then you're in a really tough place (ask my daughter who got a full ride with scholarships to NYU freshman year, then 50% less money her sophomore year.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:11 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 1:11 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
ElKevbo, I would love to see a FPP by someone well-versed on this subject, who can tease apart that report.
(Doesn't have to be you, of course! Just saying that a document like that has more than one layer to the right reader, which I probably am not.)
Also of interest is the demographic "cliff" in the next couple of years, and also the changing role of international students at US schools.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:13 PM on February 1, 2023
(Doesn't have to be you, of course! Just saying that a document like that has more than one layer to the right reader, which I probably am not.)
Also of interest is the demographic "cliff" in the next couple of years, and also the changing role of international students at US schools.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:13 PM on February 1, 2023
I would encourage your family to consider which option is the "best fit." And yes, the school needs to be a financial fit as well.
IMHO the biggest differences between the schools in question are not the "rankings" per se, but the difference of going to a selective liberal arts college (SLAC) vs. research university. Even at say, Johns Hopkins*, lots of intro level courses are going to be taught and graded by T.A.s. This teaching model wouldn't happen at a relatively "lower ranked" SLAC.
*Example chosen because I sat in on classes there once.
If your son doesn't choose a 4+1 or 4+2 program, my recommendation is go cheap and local (in state) to grad school. Master's degrees are cash cows for universities. Moreover, the "reputation" of different departments at the Master's / Ph.D levels doesn't always track with its overall undergraduate "reputation." Finally, one doesn't typically choose a Master's program based on a its social fit.
Obviously, coming out of college with no student loans is ideal, but as long as your son sticks with Federal Student loans (not private), it seems that the new proposed Income Driven Repayment option will help keep payments manageable.
The amount of money a family pays for college is not necessarily associated with its quality. Colleges practice tuition discounting. Depending on the school's policies, the tuition discount will either be based on financial need and/or "how much a college wants a student." Colleges that claim to meet full need tend to have large endowments. So it's possible that even full pay students at such schools are getting a subsidy by the endowment.
It seems to me that the college pricing model is a much higher stakes version than the clothing pricing model in 202X. Except at least when clothes shopping you can try on the article of clothing before y our buy it. If you go to say Kohls or TJ Max clothing items will frequently be "on sale." On sale based on what you might ask? More infuriating is that "brand names" don't mean higher quality. Most infuriating in my view is that high cost doesn't necessarily mean high quality.
Very cynically, in America the colleges with national recognition are the ones with good sports teams.
And as a heads up, financial aid is potentially negotiable among peer institutions.
posted by oceano at 4:23 PM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
IMHO the biggest differences between the schools in question are not the "rankings" per se, but the difference of going to a selective liberal arts college (SLAC) vs. research university. Even at say, Johns Hopkins*, lots of intro level courses are going to be taught and graded by T.A.s. This teaching model wouldn't happen at a relatively "lower ranked" SLAC.
*Example chosen because I sat in on classes there once.
If your son doesn't choose a 4+1 or 4+2 program, my recommendation is go cheap and local (in state) to grad school. Master's degrees are cash cows for universities. Moreover, the "reputation" of different departments at the Master's / Ph.D levels doesn't always track with its overall undergraduate "reputation." Finally, one doesn't typically choose a Master's program based on a its social fit.
Obviously, coming out of college with no student loans is ideal, but as long as your son sticks with Federal Student loans (not private), it seems that the new proposed Income Driven Repayment option will help keep payments manageable.
The amount of money a family pays for college is not necessarily associated with its quality. Colleges practice tuition discounting. Depending on the school's policies, the tuition discount will either be based on financial need and/or "how much a college wants a student." Colleges that claim to meet full need tend to have large endowments. So it's possible that even full pay students at such schools are getting a subsidy by the endowment.
It seems to me that the college pricing model is a much higher stakes version than the clothing pricing model in 202X. Except at least when clothes shopping you can try on the article of clothing before y our buy it. If you go to say Kohls or TJ Max clothing items will frequently be "on sale." On sale based on what you might ask? More infuriating is that "brand names" don't mean higher quality. Most infuriating in my view is that high cost doesn't necessarily mean high quality.
Very cynically, in America the colleges with national recognition are the ones with good sports teams.
And as a heads up, financial aid is potentially negotiable among peer institutions.
posted by oceano at 4:23 PM on February 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by kerf at 9:04 AM on January 31, 2023 [16 favorites]