Next steps if my manager doesn't approve my PTO?
January 9, 2023 3:40 PM
My manager may not approve my vacation request because my coworker may not return from maternity leave, and she won't tell me for sure for two weeks. How to proceed?
I gave exactly 30-days' notice for a week of PTO for a vacation with my SO and friends that we have already booked and paid for (about $1500 each). My manager, "Lisa," came back saying she won't let me know until two weeks before the trip if my request is approved because my coworker, who is on maternity leave, may not return and she's worried we will be short-staffed.
(Just last week during a meeting Lisa mentioned a return date for coworker, never expressed any concerns about PTO, and only mentioned coworker possibly not returning after I had already submitted my request.)
I actually do know my coworker may be returning to our large company, but not returning to our specific team, because she doesn't get along with Lisa. The reason Lisa gave, though, is that even though she doesn't know for sure, she does know a lot of people don't return after having a second kid.
My other coworker is also changing teams because of Lisa, but said she'd be happy to help out the week I'm gone if needed.
(Lisa has been our manager for a little over a year and all of us have been fairly miserable with her in that role, which is part of the reason I am the last woman standing with my job title in my department/region).
I'm not really one to rock the boat at work but I want to put my foot down about this. I try not to be TOO trusting about people at work but I get along well with Lisa's boss, "Matt," and he's always complimentary of my work and encouraging me to pursue other jobs in our company. I am considering asking for his help on this but there's the risk he won't/can't intervene, and if he does, good chance that pisses off Lisa.
While Lisa did say she would try her best to approve my PTO, her leaving it as a gray area, and also saying I will have to wait at least two weeks for an answer, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I've found Lisa to not be very receptive to ideas and she didn't acknowledge my suggestion that my current coworker help out. (Also, Lisa oversees several people in addition to me and my two closest coworkers, so it's a bit strange to me that apparently none of them will be available in mid-February?)
(I'm also annoyed because I was the one covering for my coworker on leave, so I was doing two people's jobs for a few months.)
I want to take this vacation and let the chips fall where they may but am looking for suggestions on the best way to go about this, if it's possible to still protect my job as well as I can. Thank you.
I gave exactly 30-days' notice for a week of PTO for a vacation with my SO and friends that we have already booked and paid for (about $1500 each). My manager, "Lisa," came back saying she won't let me know until two weeks before the trip if my request is approved because my coworker, who is on maternity leave, may not return and she's worried we will be short-staffed.
(Just last week during a meeting Lisa mentioned a return date for coworker, never expressed any concerns about PTO, and only mentioned coworker possibly not returning after I had already submitted my request.)
I actually do know my coworker may be returning to our large company, but not returning to our specific team, because she doesn't get along with Lisa. The reason Lisa gave, though, is that even though she doesn't know for sure, she does know a lot of people don't return after having a second kid.
My other coworker is also changing teams because of Lisa, but said she'd be happy to help out the week I'm gone if needed.
(Lisa has been our manager for a little over a year and all of us have been fairly miserable with her in that role, which is part of the reason I am the last woman standing with my job title in my department/region).
I'm not really one to rock the boat at work but I want to put my foot down about this. I try not to be TOO trusting about people at work but I get along well with Lisa's boss, "Matt," and he's always complimentary of my work and encouraging me to pursue other jobs in our company. I am considering asking for his help on this but there's the risk he won't/can't intervene, and if he does, good chance that pisses off Lisa.
While Lisa did say she would try her best to approve my PTO, her leaving it as a gray area, and also saying I will have to wait at least two weeks for an answer, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I've found Lisa to not be very receptive to ideas and she didn't acknowledge my suggestion that my current coworker help out. (Also, Lisa oversees several people in addition to me and my two closest coworkers, so it's a bit strange to me that apparently none of them will be available in mid-February?)
(I'm also annoyed because I was the one covering for my coworker on leave, so I was doing two people's jobs for a few months.)
I want to take this vacation and let the chips fall where they may but am looking for suggestions on the best way to go about this, if it's possible to still protect my job as well as I can. Thank you.
Document the current situation in an email summary to Lisa now if it's not already in writing. Follow up in two weeks, and if she doesn't approve your time off, bring in Matt.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:59 PM on January 9, 2023
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:59 PM on January 9, 2023
I think it really depends on your company’s policy. My company has an explicit, written policy that no PTO requests will be approved if x number of people on a team are already off. X depends on the number of people on the team; for my team it’s two other people. There are exceptions in unusual circumstances (e.g., we switched HR systems midyear and my PTO balance was incorrect, but nobody noticed until December when everyone had already requested off for holidays), but everyone knows to look at the calendar and see if anyone else is off before submitting a request. If your company has such a policy, there might not be much Matt can do for you.
In the future, I’d suggest not booking a trip until you’re certain the PTO request will be approved.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:42 PM on January 9, 2023
In the future, I’d suggest not booking a trip until you’re certain the PTO request will be approved.
posted by kevinbelt at 4:42 PM on January 9, 2023
Is there company policy (in some handbook) that you can cite?
posted by oceano at 4:43 PM on January 9, 2023
posted by oceano at 4:43 PM on January 9, 2023
This is not the most professional thing, but fuck em. If they’re that short staffed, it’s not like they’ll fire you for taking the time off anyway. If they aren’t that short staffed that they can fire you, then they can manage the time you’re away.
My tolerance for this bullshit has gone down and down. If they are that worried about staffing, they needed to hire a temp replacement for your coworker when she announced she was going on maternity leave. They had at least 2 months to address this issue. If the bottom line weren’t in your favor they wouldn’t hesitate to let you go with 24 hrs notice.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:36 PM on January 9, 2023
My tolerance for this bullshit has gone down and down. If they are that worried about staffing, they needed to hire a temp replacement for your coworker when she announced she was going on maternity leave. They had at least 2 months to address this issue. If the bottom line weren’t in your favor they wouldn’t hesitate to let you go with 24 hrs notice.
posted by raccoon409 at 6:36 PM on January 9, 2023
What does the 30 days have to do with anything? Is that, like, the earliest you were able to submit it?
In general, if you're at a place that requires PTO to be approved, you get it approved before you book the travel. If there are extenuating circumstances though, which is why I ask about the 30-day reference, or if it's a specific event you have to be able to attend, you should make sure you've explained that to Lisa and that she knows what a problem this is for you (before going to her boss, to give her a chance to do the right thing).
posted by Lady Li at 7:59 PM on January 9, 2023
In general, if you're at a place that requires PTO to be approved, you get it approved before you book the travel. If there are extenuating circumstances though, which is why I ask about the 30-day reference, or if it's a specific event you have to be able to attend, you should make sure you've explained that to Lisa and that she knows what a problem this is for you (before going to her boss, to give her a chance to do the right thing).
posted by Lady Li at 7:59 PM on January 9, 2023
Seems like there are two separate but related issues here. The first is that you don't respect Lisa, you don't enjoy working for her, and you don't trust her to make good or justifiable decisions. Your specific leave issue is related in that it seems like Lisa isn't taking all of the coverage options into account (though of course it's possible that you aren't aware of some other coworker's situation), but in a vacuum, it's not wrong for managers to hold off on approving leave if they are uncertain about whether it will lead to being short-staffed, and it seems like her concerns about your coworker returning are valid.
In a perfect world you'd confront these two issues separately - that is, you'd be seeking out opportunities to get off Lisa's team because she's a bad manager, while also following your company's policies, which probably don't guarantee that folks can use their accrued leave without approval. In this nonperfect world, I'd start by deciding whether this vacation is worth quitting over (keeping in mind it seems like you need to escape this particular job situation anyway). If it is, start looking for other options immediately. If/when it seems as though Lisa is going to deny your leave, make it known to her and Matt and whomever else that this is a critical issue for you and that after covering for coworker for several months and coming up with plausible coverage options, you'd consider the leave denial to be a sign that the company doesn't value you as an employee. If that goes ignored - fine, quit and enjoy your vacation and look forward to a less dysfunctional work environment in the future.
If the trip isn't worth leaving your position, then I think you dedicate your efforts to influencing Lisa in whatever way would be most effective - flattery or eliciting sympathy or underscoring the importance of this trip on your morale. Without knowing more about your workplace dynamics it seems like the facts are a bit weak to get Matt to overrule Lisa's (still pending) decision when it does seem like she has semi-plausible coverage concerns, and agree that path is not likely to end with a happy outcome for you.
posted by exutima at 8:47 PM on January 9, 2023
In a perfect world you'd confront these two issues separately - that is, you'd be seeking out opportunities to get off Lisa's team because she's a bad manager, while also following your company's policies, which probably don't guarantee that folks can use their accrued leave without approval. In this nonperfect world, I'd start by deciding whether this vacation is worth quitting over (keeping in mind it seems like you need to escape this particular job situation anyway). If it is, start looking for other options immediately. If/when it seems as though Lisa is going to deny your leave, make it known to her and Matt and whomever else that this is a critical issue for you and that after covering for coworker for several months and coming up with plausible coverage options, you'd consider the leave denial to be a sign that the company doesn't value you as an employee. If that goes ignored - fine, quit and enjoy your vacation and look forward to a less dysfunctional work environment in the future.
If the trip isn't worth leaving your position, then I think you dedicate your efforts to influencing Lisa in whatever way would be most effective - flattery or eliciting sympathy or underscoring the importance of this trip on your morale. Without knowing more about your workplace dynamics it seems like the facts are a bit weak to get Matt to overrule Lisa's (still pending) decision when it does seem like she has semi-plausible coverage concerns, and agree that path is not likely to end with a happy outcome for you.
posted by exutima at 8:47 PM on January 9, 2023
The situation sounds horrible, but if you're required to get approval before using PTO, then the fact that you booked a trip before getting approval doesn't entitle you to bend the rules. You're acting as if she approved the leave request and then reneged after you booked the trip, but that's not what happened. However you proceed, I think it would be helpful if you turned down the righteousness (just about this specific request) when suggesting alternatives to Lisa (or Matt, but I wouldn't start there). Something like, "I realize I shouldn't have booked the trip until you approved the leave. Is there a way we can make this work? So-and-so has agreed to fill in, and this particular time period falls between major projects," or whatever.
posted by lapis at 8:56 PM on January 9, 2023
posted by lapis at 8:56 PM on January 9, 2023
Thanks for the input so far.
To expand a bit on the workplace dynamic/culture, this was a place where time off was a notification and not a request, especially this time of year.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:53 PM on January 9, 2023
To expand a bit on the workplace dynamic/culture, this was a place where time off was a notification and not a request, especially this time of year.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:53 PM on January 9, 2023
I'm team Fuck Em. You deserve to have time off. What if you or another employee got sick or had to have surgery, or had a family emergency? They'd deal with it, and at least with a planned vacation they have some advanced notice. The short staffing is their fault and you have been doing your job plus covering for someone else. Most jobs I've worked at require people to request PTO but it's a formality. As long as you have enough leave days you get approved automatically. If someone denied my leave I'd look to change managers or get a new job. In your case I'd set a meeting to talk with Lisa ASAP and let her know this trip is really important to you, you're feeling burnt out, and you have provided suggestions for coverage. Tell her you'll need a decision by X (tomorrow) and you'd really appreciate it getting approved. To be honest if she denied it this is the type of thing I'd quit or threaten to quit over. But you might be a little less firery over this issue. I hate the fact that I even have to ask permission to take leave that I'm entitled to via my contract. Grrr. I wouldn't go to Matt first, senior people generally don't appreciate getting pulled into this sort of stuff. Unless Lisa denies your leave, then sure, go to him because fuck it.
posted by emd3737 at 1:48 AM on January 10, 2023
posted by emd3737 at 1:48 AM on January 10, 2023
this was a place where time off was a notification and not a request
Was this an explicit policy, or a custom? Because one of the big stories of the past few years has been the erosion of norms that weren’t officially encoded in policy.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:43 AM on January 10, 2023
Was this an explicit policy, or a custom? Because one of the big stories of the past few years has been the erosion of norms that weren’t officially encoded in policy.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:43 AM on January 10, 2023
Most jobs I've worked at require people to request PTO but it's a formality.
At my workplace, and my past workplaces, it's really really not a formality. So a lot of this is going to depend on your workplace. I get that it's a change at yours, so that's worth digging into - but it could be there was easy coverage before and now there isn't or a lot of things.
I know that people here like to treat it like there should be straightforward answers all the time like temp workers, but that doesn't reflect the reality for a lot of organizations - it depends on the size and specificity of the work. Certainly ideally companies have extra hands, but this is an unusual time thanks to so many people being sick etc.
I like Lapis's script for what to do this week. It might also be worth asking Lisa if there is a way to access temp labour, either through an agency or internally - help her find solutions. She sounds like someone who may need the help being creative about it.
If the answer is still no, then I would suggest you approach Matt in a spirit of sharing "I am having trouble where I am feeling burnt out because I've been covering two jobs, and I booked a vacation Lisa won't approve...how would you recommend I handle this with Lisa, and are there any other resources we can bring in to handle coverage?"
Hopefully if you get to that point. he says he'll take care of it, because he should have access to other teams and resources.
If you don't get any answer then yeah, it's take the vacation and see how that impacts your career. Sometimes that is totally worth it!
posted by warriorqueen at 7:06 AM on January 10, 2023
At my workplace, and my past workplaces, it's really really not a formality. So a lot of this is going to depend on your workplace. I get that it's a change at yours, so that's worth digging into - but it could be there was easy coverage before and now there isn't or a lot of things.
I know that people here like to treat it like there should be straightforward answers all the time like temp workers, but that doesn't reflect the reality for a lot of organizations - it depends on the size and specificity of the work. Certainly ideally companies have extra hands, but this is an unusual time thanks to so many people being sick etc.
I like Lapis's script for what to do this week. It might also be worth asking Lisa if there is a way to access temp labour, either through an agency or internally - help her find solutions. She sounds like someone who may need the help being creative about it.
If the answer is still no, then I would suggest you approach Matt in a spirit of sharing "I am having trouble where I am feeling burnt out because I've been covering two jobs, and I booked a vacation Lisa won't approve...how would you recommend I handle this with Lisa, and are there any other resources we can bring in to handle coverage?"
Hopefully if you get to that point. he says he'll take care of it, because he should have access to other teams and resources.
If you don't get any answer then yeah, it's take the vacation and see how that impacts your career. Sometimes that is totally worth it!
posted by warriorqueen at 7:06 AM on January 10, 2023
Lisa sounds like she's trying to exert power more than worrying about workload. Make your case to her directly by email. Lisa, as we've discussed, this is not an unusually busy time, and if I don't take time off now, and things get busier, I won't be able to use my time. I need to be able to plan my time off. or something like that. lapis' wording is really good. Lisa is being unreasonable and keeping you from using PTO, a form of compensation, keeping you from being able to plan your life.
posted by theora55 at 7:27 AM on January 10, 2023
posted by theora55 at 7:27 AM on January 10, 2023
The suggestions of waiting to book vacations until after PTO just make my stomach churn, what a backwards way to have to live. I realize the reasons for this attitude and practical reasons to take that route, and just there's something fundamentally gross about not even getting to plan to enjoy life without first getting permission from capitalists.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:40 AM on January 10, 2023
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:40 AM on January 10, 2023
My manager did approve my PTO.
For those of you who picked up on my general annoyance with her, I am looking for another job or department. Thank you all.
posted by girlmightlive at 7:09 AM on February 17, 2023
For those of you who picked up on my general annoyance with her, I am looking for another job or department. Thank you all.
posted by girlmightlive at 7:09 AM on February 17, 2023
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Go to Matt.
posted by phunniemee at 3:45 PM on January 9, 2023