Simplest way to build a fantasy rail map/plan?
December 5, 2022 6:22 AM Subscribe
So I want to make a fantasy rail system for Iceland. I'm not an engineer. A very rough estimate of feasibility.
And not just lines over a map, but rough calculations of feasibility. Like, where you'd need a tunnel, how much you need to build under the tracks to have an acceptable low inclination. That sort of thing.
Iceland isn't the best candidate, so many fjords and hills. That's a given. But I'd like to experiment anyway.
So, something which works on top of open 3d map data. As uncomplicated as possible. Free or cheap software - since this does not need to export anything professional-grade.
Cost calculation is a plus.
I don't expect that anything useful exists, but any suggestions of the closest match would be appreciated.
Iceland isn't the best candidate, so many fjords and hills. That's a given. But I'd like to experiment anyway.
So, something which works on top of open 3d map data. As uncomplicated as possible. Free or cheap software - since this does not need to export anything professional-grade.
Cost calculation is a plus.
I don't expect that anything useful exists, but any suggestions of the closest match would be appreciated.
Fairly sure this doesn't exist - Poland's considering a railway system redesign and the people in charge of it have famously put the new "spokes" through various things that would require beaucoup money in comparison to just putting the line two miles to the left. I saw an exercise that tried to do it with one town alone and it took a team of a dozen people a few weeks of going through rough models and back-of-a-napkin calculations of how much it'd cost to demolish which building (they were trying to prove a tunnel would be cheaper).
This is stuff that takes years to design for a reason. And in the end it's always over budget and behind schedule...
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:19 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is stuff that takes years to design for a reason. And in the end it's always over budget and behind schedule...
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:19 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Archise: yeah, anything inland feels unrealistic. And volcanic hotspots must be taken into account, but for this excercise I wouldn’t, it’s just a super rough ballpark thing.
I Claim Sanctuary: that’s a factor I could easily ignore, as there are no buildings to speak of. Furthermore, the idea is just to get the flimsiest of estimates. There was a discussion on Icelandic Twitter, I volunteered “It can’t be done, too expensive and the landscape doesn’t allow it”, but then I started wondering if that were in fact true.
Its a much different proposition to challenging an already engineered and budgeted plan.
It doesn’t have to be workable, just a rough draft.
Currently, I’m wondering if this could be a job for model railroad enthusiasts.
posted by svenni at 9:32 AM on December 5, 2022
I Claim Sanctuary: that’s a factor I could easily ignore, as there are no buildings to speak of. Furthermore, the idea is just to get the flimsiest of estimates. There was a discussion on Icelandic Twitter, I volunteered “It can’t be done, too expensive and the landscape doesn’t allow it”, but then I started wondering if that were in fact true.
Its a much different proposition to challenging an already engineered and budgeted plan.
It doesn’t have to be workable, just a rough draft.
Currently, I’m wondering if this could be a job for model railroad enthusiasts.
posted by svenni at 9:32 AM on December 5, 2022
Best answer: Purely as background information, see if you can find Chapter 5 of the Manual for Railway Engineering, published by AREMA. That’s the canonical source in the US for curves (limits, how to lay them out, how many can happen within what distance, etc) in rail systems, which you’ll probably need a lot of.
…the rest may also be interesting, but it’s the curves that get really critical really quick.
posted by aramaic at 10:51 AM on December 5, 2022
…the rest may also be interesting, but it’s the curves that get really critical really quick.
posted by aramaic at 10:51 AM on December 5, 2022
Note that especially in Switzerland the lines that needed to be built with curvier sections, steeper inclines and through otherwise problematic geography are often narrow-gauge. As the rolling stock is lighter and narrower it allows for a lighter and less costly superstructure, and despite reduced transport capacity these lines are for a very large part considered tier-1 connections. You can find narrow-gauge in other alpine countries[0], but IMO the Swiss would be the country to take your cues from regarding building a railroad across Iceland; particularly the Albula Bahn is worth taking a closer look.
[0] and countries/regions where investment in standard gauge wasn't expected to bring in sufficient returns due to the distances involved or, again, geography, such as large parts of Eastern Africa. Except for the Shinkansen 'bullet' trains, Japan's railway network too is Cape gauge, 3'6" (1068mm) because of geography.
posted by Stoneshop at 1:32 PM on December 5, 2022
[0] and countries/regions where investment in standard gauge wasn't expected to bring in sufficient returns due to the distances involved or, again, geography, such as large parts of Eastern Africa. Except for the Shinkansen 'bullet' trains, Japan's railway network too is Cape gauge, 3'6" (1068mm) because of geography.
posted by Stoneshop at 1:32 PM on December 5, 2022
Best answer: you might check out the mapping tool Felt. It's a tool for annotated map making and they have a number of interesting data layers. It wouldn't handle any of the technical rail questions, but great for fantasy plotting i think.
posted by wowenthusiast at 2:57 PM on December 5, 2022
posted by wowenthusiast at 2:57 PM on December 5, 2022
Best answer: There's not really a free solution or anything; a nation-sized rail network is something that costs billions of dollars, so 'cheap' software can have five-figure budgets, and technical design can have seven figure budgets for a 'rough draft', moving into the eight figures for actual design.
I volunteered “It can’t be done, too expensive and the landscape doesn’t allow it”, but then I started wondering if that were in fact true.
It is in fact true. The fundamental point of building a railroad is to move stuff (including people) from point A to point B, and my very surface understanding of Iceland is that there isn't all that much stuff to move, particularly in places that are not reasonably accessible by the sea - ocean transport being cheaper than rail transport even ignoring the cost of construction. (Note this is at the national scale; I'm sure that it would be plausible to build some sort of tram system in the capital region, from Hafnarfjörður to the central business district or something like that, but that doesn't sound like what you're talking about here.)
Currently, I’m wondering if this could be a job for model railroad enthusiasts.
No. Plenty of model railroad enthusiasts are also rail enthusiasts, so they are more knowledgeable than average, but aside from this, it's like asking someone who knits gloves for help on doing carpal tunnel surgery. Model railroading isn't really about the geometric design of a railroad.
What might be the most relevant free-or-cheap alternative is the video game Railroad Tycoon 3, which is 20 years old, but does have a map editor (it's also still pretty fun, at least if you like building railroad networks). The costs have nothing to do with real world costs, but it's a start. There's a map builder that will create a map from elevation data; if it's not included in your download, it's available here. There are already two fan-made Iceland scenarios available from this map site.
For appropriate cost estimates, I'd start reading reports of rail projects in other Nordic countries - particularly Norwegian ones, which will face similar high labour costs and (some) similar physical constraints.
posted by Superilla at 12:43 PM on December 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I volunteered “It can’t be done, too expensive and the landscape doesn’t allow it”, but then I started wondering if that were in fact true.
It is in fact true. The fundamental point of building a railroad is to move stuff (including people) from point A to point B, and my very surface understanding of Iceland is that there isn't all that much stuff to move, particularly in places that are not reasonably accessible by the sea - ocean transport being cheaper than rail transport even ignoring the cost of construction. (Note this is at the national scale; I'm sure that it would be plausible to build some sort of tram system in the capital region, from Hafnarfjörður to the central business district or something like that, but that doesn't sound like what you're talking about here.)
Currently, I’m wondering if this could be a job for model railroad enthusiasts.
No. Plenty of model railroad enthusiasts are also rail enthusiasts, so they are more knowledgeable than average, but aside from this, it's like asking someone who knits gloves for help on doing carpal tunnel surgery. Model railroading isn't really about the geometric design of a railroad.
What might be the most relevant free-or-cheap alternative is the video game Railroad Tycoon 3, which is 20 years old, but does have a map editor (it's also still pretty fun, at least if you like building railroad networks). The costs have nothing to do with real world costs, but it's a start. There's a map builder that will create a map from elevation data; if it's not included in your download, it's available here. There are already two fan-made Iceland scenarios available from this map site.
For appropriate cost estimates, I'd start reading reports of rail projects in other Nordic countries - particularly Norwegian ones, which will face similar high labour costs and (some) similar physical constraints.
posted by Superilla at 12:43 PM on December 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by achrise at 6:50 AM on December 5, 2022