how would you want this handled?
November 7, 2022 11:11 AM Subscribe
My spouse's 13 year old nephew was groping my daughters. I know what I intend to do, but curious if there are options or perspectives I haven't considered.
My spouse is not close to his sister; we seem them once a year or so, and that only because I have made a dutiful point of inviting them to my family's Thanksgiving.
We had a big gathering this past weekend (a special event that is replacing Thanksgiving this year.) It was upscale and included various catered events, professional photography, etc. There was a lot going on and I was in busy host mode the whole time.
My 13 year old daughter told me afterwards that the boy was making her very uncomfortable: he groped her - not sure if her bottom or also genitals - while they were getting buckled into the backseat of the car; then groped her bottom and breast when they were getting into position for portraits. Then my 16 year old told me that the boy had been weird to her the prior year as well, asking to hang out with her on her bed, but she hadn't told me because at the time he was only 12 and she didn't consider him a threat. She said he also grabbed her breast during the posed photo jostling this time and even referenced it to afterwards, saying something like "that got intense!"
My first thought was to get on the phone together with my husband, call my SIL and her husband and the kid, and tell them, all together so there is no misunderstanding, exactly what happened and that if the boy ever wants to be invited to our home again he needs to understand that we know what he did and that he is never to touch either of our girls again. I figure he's 13, probably a horny and overly excited child rather than a danger, and that having his aunt and uncle call him out in this fashion should hopefully embarrass him into cleaning up his act... is that realistic?
I should also say that if it weren't for my husband possibly not wanting to estrange his sister, I'd be happy to just phase them out after the talk. (Obviously I will be discussing this with my husband, but he's super sick today and I need to let him sleep.)
I'm interested in hearing from folks who've been in the position of any of the characters here... the perv boy, the parents of the boy, the grope-ees, or parents of the grope-ees. How was it handled? How should it have been handled?
My spouse is not close to his sister; we seem them once a year or so, and that only because I have made a dutiful point of inviting them to my family's Thanksgiving.
We had a big gathering this past weekend (a special event that is replacing Thanksgiving this year.) It was upscale and included various catered events, professional photography, etc. There was a lot going on and I was in busy host mode the whole time.
My 13 year old daughter told me afterwards that the boy was making her very uncomfortable: he groped her - not sure if her bottom or also genitals - while they were getting buckled into the backseat of the car; then groped her bottom and breast when they were getting into position for portraits. Then my 16 year old told me that the boy had been weird to her the prior year as well, asking to hang out with her on her bed, but she hadn't told me because at the time he was only 12 and she didn't consider him a threat. She said he also grabbed her breast during the posed photo jostling this time and even referenced it to afterwards, saying something like "that got intense!"
My first thought was to get on the phone together with my husband, call my SIL and her husband and the kid, and tell them, all together so there is no misunderstanding, exactly what happened and that if the boy ever wants to be invited to our home again he needs to understand that we know what he did and that he is never to touch either of our girls again. I figure he's 13, probably a horny and overly excited child rather than a danger, and that having his aunt and uncle call him out in this fashion should hopefully embarrass him into cleaning up his act... is that realistic?
I should also say that if it weren't for my husband possibly not wanting to estrange his sister, I'd be happy to just phase them out after the talk. (Obviously I will be discussing this with my husband, but he's super sick today and I need to let him sleep.)
I'm interested in hearing from folks who've been in the position of any of the characters here... the perv boy, the parents of the boy, the grope-ees, or parents of the grope-ees. How was it handled? How should it have been handled?
I've never encountered this type of situation in my entire life, which indicates to me that it's very abnormal, and my takeaway from that is there's something seriously wrong going on with this boy and you need to think of what should be done in terms of not only what to do to protect your own daughters but also to protect other girls as well. I think very serious intervention is needed.
posted by Dansaman at 11:26 AM on November 7, 2022 [38 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 11:26 AM on November 7, 2022 [38 favorites]
I wouldn't include the kid on the phone in the first round. I would tell the parents what happened, tell them you expect them to deal with their child's behavior, and then agree to speak with them again after they've discussed it as a family, and only after that decide what to do going forward.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 11:27 AM on November 7, 2022 [52 favorites]
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 11:27 AM on November 7, 2022 [52 favorites]
I used to do therapy with teens who had been sexually assaulted, most often by family members. The biggest difference I noticed in how well they were able to integrate the experience and move on was whether their parents unequivocally took their side and made their protection the primary goal, over family unity/smoothing things over.
It doesn't sound like you're talking about smoothing things over, and it's hard to tell from your description how upset your kids are (and they may not be telling you, either), but that would be my guiding principle -- protecting my kids. That doesn't require demonizing their cousin, and I think giving him feedback and time to reflect makes sense given his age, but that shouldn't be at the cost of your daughters feeling pressure to make-nice.
posted by lapis at 11:35 AM on November 7, 2022 [43 favorites]
It doesn't sound like you're talking about smoothing things over, and it's hard to tell from your description how upset your kids are (and they may not be telling you, either), but that would be my guiding principle -- protecting my kids. That doesn't require demonizing their cousin, and I think giving him feedback and time to reflect makes sense given his age, but that shouldn't be at the cost of your daughters feeling pressure to make-nice.
posted by lapis at 11:35 AM on November 7, 2022 [43 favorites]
Agreed this isn't normal behavior for that age - by 13, he should be well versed in the taboo of nonconsensual and boundary-pushing behavior, much less sexual transgression. This is predator behavior and as a parent, I'd be Very Concerned and treating it a truly violating. I think he's closer to being a danger than you've stated here.
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 11:36 AM on November 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by Ink-stained wretch at 11:36 AM on November 7, 2022 [21 favorites]
Including the kid is the fastest way to make sure you never see this child or his parents again, so in your situation I would go for that. (We had a similar situation on my family and 35 years later, the offending then-child still refuses to see anyone from that side of the family. Shame is a mighty tool.)
However, please note that we have all been horny 13 year olds and we are not all groping each other. You need to make it clear to the child that this kind of non-consensual touching is not acceptable, and that what he did is indecent assault and can be reported to the police.
Your daughters, not your husband, are the ones who decide if they want to report. Make sure you thank your girls for telling you, and do not smooth this over for the comfort of your spouse.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:36 AM on November 7, 2022 [53 favorites]
However, please note that we have all been horny 13 year olds and we are not all groping each other. You need to make it clear to the child that this kind of non-consensual touching is not acceptable, and that what he did is indecent assault and can be reported to the police.
Your daughters, not your husband, are the ones who decide if they want to report. Make sure you thank your girls for telling you, and do not smooth this over for the comfort of your spouse.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:36 AM on November 7, 2022 [53 favorites]
And as others have said, nonconsensual groping is not "normal" 13yo behavior and would make me question whether he's being victimized in some way, too.
posted by lapis at 11:39 AM on November 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by lapis at 11:39 AM on November 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
Best answer: Horny 13 year olds absolutely should and can know it's not okay to touch other people like that. He can think all the things he wants, but it's a BIG DEAL that he touched the girls non-consensually. There are two things you need to consider moving forward:
1. Your girls. It's very good that they told you what happened! But, please take some time to do what you need to do to empower them to yell, scream, cause a ruckus, etc. the next time anyone ever touches them in a way they don't like. "DON'T TOUCH ME!" is a great thing. I'd say to roll play, this, where you model yelling this while someone (your spouse pretending to be someone you don't know) touches you in a way you don't want. Often people, especially girls, are socialized not to call attention to ourselves or say or do anything to make other people uncomfortable, and predators absolutely prey on this instinct. Your girls didn't do anything wrong, and it's super important to emphasize that. However, it's important that they also learn to try as much as possible to advocate for themselves in the moment. This is about empowering them to push someone's hand away, etc. This is information they need for life, for dating, for everything.
2. The nephew. I don't believe he's only doing this to your girls. I bet he does this at school and everywhere. I'd say to get on the phone with your spouse and the parents -- and NOT the kid -- and have a very serious conversation focusing on facts, not emotions. It would be totally fine to write it out and then read it out loud. This is a BIG problem and totally boundary-ignoring behavior. Most horny kids know not to touch people non-consensually.
The question of if he's invited again seems not immediate (you usually said you seem then once a year), so I wouldn't even focus on that. These parents need to know what's happening and they absolutely need to get this kid into some kind of treatment asap. You can't control that, but try not to make it about your relationship with them and what the kid did.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:41 AM on November 7, 2022 [70 favorites]
1. Your girls. It's very good that they told you what happened! But, please take some time to do what you need to do to empower them to yell, scream, cause a ruckus, etc. the next time anyone ever touches them in a way they don't like. "DON'T TOUCH ME!" is a great thing. I'd say to roll play, this, where you model yelling this while someone (your spouse pretending to be someone you don't know) touches you in a way you don't want. Often people, especially girls, are socialized not to call attention to ourselves or say or do anything to make other people uncomfortable, and predators absolutely prey on this instinct. Your girls didn't do anything wrong, and it's super important to emphasize that. However, it's important that they also learn to try as much as possible to advocate for themselves in the moment. This is about empowering them to push someone's hand away, etc. This is information they need for life, for dating, for everything.
2. The nephew. I don't believe he's only doing this to your girls. I bet he does this at school and everywhere. I'd say to get on the phone with your spouse and the parents -- and NOT the kid -- and have a very serious conversation focusing on facts, not emotions. It would be totally fine to write it out and then read it out loud. This is a BIG problem and totally boundary-ignoring behavior. Most horny kids know not to touch people non-consensually.
The question of if he's invited again seems not immediate (you usually said you seem then once a year), so I wouldn't even focus on that. These parents need to know what's happening and they absolutely need to get this kid into some kind of treatment asap. You can't control that, but try not to make it about your relationship with them and what the kid did.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:41 AM on November 7, 2022 [70 favorites]
It is fairly likely that his parents will not believe you, and will insist that their son is a good kid who will never do anything like that. You absolutely need to get your spouse on board with the idea that you have to back up your children on this, regardless of his sister's reaction.
I would speak to the parents without the boy. It's not necessary for you to be involved in their parenting. It might make it harder for them to respond appropriately if that's their intention.
posted by plonkee at 11:55 AM on November 7, 2022 [16 favorites]
I would speak to the parents without the boy. It's not necessary for you to be involved in their parenting. It might make it harder for them to respond appropriately if that's their intention.
posted by plonkee at 11:55 AM on November 7, 2022 [16 favorites]
Your children need you. That's your priority. You've said you'll listen to what they need, and that's covered above.
a horny and overly excited child rather than a danger, and that having his aunt and uncle call him out in this fashion should hopefully embarrass him into cleaning up his act... is that realistic?
According to the internet, groping is addictive. Here is an article on why people grope. In summary, seeking approval from peers is part of it, and dealing inappropriately with discomfort with emotions such as vulnerability is a lot of it.
posted by aniola at 12:06 PM on November 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
a horny and overly excited child rather than a danger, and that having his aunt and uncle call him out in this fashion should hopefully embarrass him into cleaning up his act... is that realistic?
According to the internet, groping is addictive. Here is an article on why people grope. In summary, seeking approval from peers is part of it, and dealing inappropriately with discomfort with emotions such as vulnerability is a lot of it.
Many men are raised to detest their own dependence, passivity, and vulnerability. This occurs not only through punishment of boys for being weak but also through excessive praise for their strength, agency, and toughness. The latter creates a situation where the boy being normally vulnerable or scared becomes a loss of face. Groping, ogling, and catcalling are often ways of inducing in women feelings of vulnerability, weakness, and fear. Compared to women scurrying away from a frightening man, the man seems to himself to be tough, strong, and courageous. Compared to a woman paralyzed or befuddled by being groped, the man seems to himself to be a master of the universe. Bullying works the same way.The cousin needs therapy and maybe also some lessons on how to stick to the healthier parts of the internet.
posted by aniola at 12:06 PM on November 7, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is serious and extremely alarming. The fact that it happened with both your daughters during a rare visit is even more upsetting, and suggests this child may be groping (or more) other children he sees more often. The main thing is believing and protecting your daughters! I worked for many years as a sexual assault counselor, and this kind of behavior definitely deserves being called assault. If you call your sister and brother in law they may refuse to believe you, so be prepared for that. They will no doubt say the kids were "playing" or "roughhousing" and your daughters "misinterpreted" what went on, because that's what their son will tell them. Stick by your daughters! All our daughters need to know they can trust their gut feelings and be supported by the adults charged with keeping them safe. And although it's great to give your daughters strategies to interrupt or prevent imminent touching or worse, they need to know that unwanted touching is never their fault, whether they were too scared or confused to shout or kick, or whether they did kick and then have your nephew lie about why they kicked him and deflect the blame.
Is there a sexual assault organization where you live? These can typically be accessed by phone or text and are staffed by paid and trained volunteers. They can speak to you and/or your daughters, and your spouse, as you all are processing this differently, with the added complication of family ties and guilt about upsetting you (your daughters) and severing the family (your spouse). These organizations may be able to provide free confidential counseling for your daughters. Please reach out - they will not tell you that you "should" do anything -they are there to listen without judgement and to answer any questions you or your daughters might have. The nationwide organization that supports those who have been assaulted is called RAINN, which has a national hotline. If you call 800.656.HOPE (4673), you will be routed to the closest sexual assault support organization to your phone location, using your area code and exchange. As an assault survivor myself I can attest to the kindness and generosity with which sexual assault counselors interact with those who seek their help. Good luck.
posted by citygirl at 12:19 PM on November 7, 2022 [22 favorites]
Is there a sexual assault organization where you live? These can typically be accessed by phone or text and are staffed by paid and trained volunteers. They can speak to you and/or your daughters, and your spouse, as you all are processing this differently, with the added complication of family ties and guilt about upsetting you (your daughters) and severing the family (your spouse). These organizations may be able to provide free confidential counseling for your daughters. Please reach out - they will not tell you that you "should" do anything -they are there to listen without judgement and to answer any questions you or your daughters might have. The nationwide organization that supports those who have been assaulted is called RAINN, which has a national hotline. If you call 800.656.HOPE (4673), you will be routed to the closest sexual assault support organization to your phone location, using your area code and exchange. As an assault survivor myself I can attest to the kindness and generosity with which sexual assault counselors interact with those who seek their help. Good luck.
posted by citygirl at 12:19 PM on November 7, 2022 [22 favorites]
One thing to consider is that even if he's only done it to your daughters once each,
he may also be doing it to girls at his school,
and/or younger relatives that he has access to.
Speaking up helps keep other girls safe, including girls you may never even meet.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
he may also be doing it to girls at his school,
and/or younger relatives that he has access to.
Speaking up helps keep other girls safe, including girls you may never even meet.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2022 [17 favorites]
I would echo what others have said about how important it is to take this seriously, and take your daughters' perspectives into account when following up here. But regardless of how they feel about it, you should be taking strong steps to set boundaries, including cutting off contact. As the parent of a bunch of kids, I know I would take it very seriously if a relative told me one of my children had groped someone else. I'd like to think that I wouldn't act defensively, but I know everyone reacts in different ways.
I am a bit surprised (as a criminal defense lawyer here) that no one has said they would call law enforcement. Maybe I only see the cases that are actually filed, but it seems a lot of people are mandatory reporters, and what you described is likely a felony in many states (it is in Oregon). I don't generally think our criminal punishment system helps people in these situations - I think it tends to repeat the trauma by making victims talk again and again about what happen, and then our juvenile punishment system either will tie the teenager up in legal limbo for years with no real help, or worse, help him learn to be a better perpetrator. So I'm not arguing for you to report this, but I'm just mentioning it to underscore the severity of the conduct.
If you believe your daughters (and you haven't given any reason why you wouldn't believe them), following up immediately and carefully is vital. Good luck!
posted by Happydaz at 2:34 PM on November 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am a bit surprised (as a criminal defense lawyer here) that no one has said they would call law enforcement. Maybe I only see the cases that are actually filed, but it seems a lot of people are mandatory reporters, and what you described is likely a felony in many states (it is in Oregon). I don't generally think our criminal punishment system helps people in these situations - I think it tends to repeat the trauma by making victims talk again and again about what happen, and then our juvenile punishment system either will tie the teenager up in legal limbo for years with no real help, or worse, help him learn to be a better perpetrator. So I'm not arguing for you to report this, but I'm just mentioning it to underscore the severity of the conduct.
If you believe your daughters (and you haven't given any reason why you wouldn't believe them), following up immediately and carefully is vital. Good luck!
posted by Happydaz at 2:34 PM on November 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I wanted to say similar to Happydaz. Unfortunately I have been in the position of dealing with this kind of issue as not-a-family-member where the groping occurred with a non-relative and it did become a law enforcement issue. I do think you should seek professional help and guidance.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:47 PM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 2:47 PM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
I agree with much of the above advice especially the one you already marked as best answer, but I would add one thought, that is not exactly your situation to solve:
If this has been going on for a couple years as suggested by you question, it's also possible this kid has experienced boundary violations against himself, teaching him to replicate the behavior. This is in no way to excuse his harmful actions. But it is distinctly possible that someone in that household harmed him, and he is now acting that out. You can't know and I wouldn't assume that is the case, but, young people learn and act out the experiences they have little control over.
So I agree with talking to the parents (without him) but also just something to consider is that this kid may also need some help/separate from the real need for him to need feedback that what he is doing is wrong and unacceptable. Since it sounds like this is a family that will stay in your lives, something to think about. Like, maybe there is an opening for someone (your husband?) to give the kid some open-ended opportunities to share what's going on in his life at some point in the future
posted by latkes at 2:59 PM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
If this has been going on for a couple years as suggested by you question, it's also possible this kid has experienced boundary violations against himself, teaching him to replicate the behavior. This is in no way to excuse his harmful actions. But it is distinctly possible that someone in that household harmed him, and he is now acting that out. You can't know and I wouldn't assume that is the case, but, young people learn and act out the experiences they have little control over.
So I agree with talking to the parents (without him) but also just something to consider is that this kid may also need some help/separate from the real need for him to need feedback that what he is doing is wrong and unacceptable. Since it sounds like this is a family that will stay in your lives, something to think about. Like, maybe there is an opening for someone (your husband?) to give the kid some open-ended opportunities to share what's going on in his life at some point in the future
posted by latkes at 2:59 PM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
I strongly agree that you should also be concerned that this boy may himself have been the victim of sexually inappropriate behavior, and should incorporate that concern into your plan.
posted by prefpara at 3:04 PM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 3:04 PM on November 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah, kids don't usually act like that out of nowhere. They've often been themselves victimized by a sexual predator. It could even be one of his parents, or another close family member, friend, youth worker, priest, etc., people the boy sees more frequently than once a year. If you call his parents and they're not appalled, if they act very defensive, if they disbelieve what your girls have told you, then it's definitely time to call in social services or the law.
It's great that your kids are comfortable enough to tell you this.
posted by mareli at 3:27 PM on November 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's great that your kids are comfortable enough to tell you this.
posted by mareli at 3:27 PM on November 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just to add to the data - I know someone who's recently been through a somewhat similar situation. In their case it came out when one of the girls told a teacher, who is a mandatory reporter, so the police were informed. It was taken seriously, the girls were interviewed (I assume in an age-appropriate way, not a scary interview room) and the police visited the offender's family. I don't know anything about the outcome beyond that, but just to say that this kind of thing is serious enough to be dealt with by police.
I do live in a place where police tend not to be seen as a threat by default, and which has a decent youth justice system which assumes that young offenders are to some extent victims themselves and offers support as well as just punitive correction, so YMMV.
posted by penguin pie at 3:52 PM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do live in a place where police tend not to be seen as a threat by default, and which has a decent youth justice system which assumes that young offenders are to some extent victims themselves and offers support as well as just punitive correction, so YMMV.
posted by penguin pie at 3:52 PM on November 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I would send the BIL/SIL an email saying "Unfortunately, we've had some serious reports of misbehavior by Child at Event. Can we set a time to discuss when we can all be sure none of the kids including Child will overhear so we can talk freely?"
That gives them a chance to go to their child and say "what do YOU think this is about?" Also it kind of gives them a chance to shake the shock out of their systems and prepare themselves, which may be far preferable to hearing their kneejerk reactions. Additionally, this gives you the opportunity to find out if they already know about their kid's problem.
When you talk to BIL/SIL, I think you should list out the incidents pretty much like you did above, and absolutely do not leave any room for them to think you're offering them an escape hatch of "misunderstanding". Your kids have not misunderstood the situation. They are believed, and they understood what happened. We're not going down any other routes here. But you can tell them - and I truly think this is the right way to handle surprising conversations - you're not looking for them to give you any specific response or divulge information to you that is privately being handled already - but that you are gravely concerned on multiple vectors and do need to have some followup discussions about a) how your kids are going to be able to feel safe at future family events b) whether their child is safe.
I do want to defend that kids absolutely DO act like this out of nowhere sometimes. Tweens and teens are, at some moments and often in relation to some especially chemical subjects, prone to instances of being complete fucking knuckleheads. Also they are even worse knuckleheads in packs, and they sometimes suggest some absolute bullshit to each other.
And this is one reason you can't go in blazing that they're molesting their own kid and should go to jail, but I DO think it's fair to straight out tell them that you would be remiss as caring adults if you weren't concerned what to think about their child's situation. And that you're not looking for meaningless (or exacerbating) punishment or retribution, but rather it's on them to a) help him navigate puberty in a smart and mindful and informed way b) get him help if he needs help c) before this happens again. And if you're willing to mean it, I think you should tell them that if THEY need help, you will help in whatever ways you are able to get them the help/support they need.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:14 PM on November 7, 2022 [20 favorites]
That gives them a chance to go to their child and say "what do YOU think this is about?" Also it kind of gives them a chance to shake the shock out of their systems and prepare themselves, which may be far preferable to hearing their kneejerk reactions. Additionally, this gives you the opportunity to find out if they already know about their kid's problem.
When you talk to BIL/SIL, I think you should list out the incidents pretty much like you did above, and absolutely do not leave any room for them to think you're offering them an escape hatch of "misunderstanding". Your kids have not misunderstood the situation. They are believed, and they understood what happened. We're not going down any other routes here. But you can tell them - and I truly think this is the right way to handle surprising conversations - you're not looking for them to give you any specific response or divulge information to you that is privately being handled already - but that you are gravely concerned on multiple vectors and do need to have some followup discussions about a) how your kids are going to be able to feel safe at future family events b) whether their child is safe.
I do want to defend that kids absolutely DO act like this out of nowhere sometimes. Tweens and teens are, at some moments and often in relation to some especially chemical subjects, prone to instances of being complete fucking knuckleheads. Also they are even worse knuckleheads in packs, and they sometimes suggest some absolute bullshit to each other.
And this is one reason you can't go in blazing that they're molesting their own kid and should go to jail, but I DO think it's fair to straight out tell them that you would be remiss as caring adults if you weren't concerned what to think about their child's situation. And that you're not looking for meaningless (or exacerbating) punishment or retribution, but rather it's on them to a) help him navigate puberty in a smart and mindful and informed way b) get him help if he needs help c) before this happens again. And if you're willing to mean it, I think you should tell them that if THEY need help, you will help in whatever ways you are able to get them the help/support they need.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:14 PM on November 7, 2022 [20 favorites]
(I had a pinky-finger spasm that posted this before I was totally done, so one more concluding thought:) It is worth pre-intervening with your kids to make sure that they don't connect them doing the right thing - telling you - with whatever happens next that is out of your control. Whether the kid's parents punish him inappropriately, or if it turns out this is an ongoing problem that becomes legal, or if he ends up in any of several possibly terrible circumstances, or if absolutely nothing happens, it's not because they told you or because they don't deserve both justice and a non-mortifying-to-them conclusion. Because there's a whole side issue with a lot of kids about not wanting to make a fuss because they don't want to experience the fuss (or the fallout), and that's a legitimate worry.
Kids worry about "telling" a lot, generally. So this definitely opens the door to an ongoing conversation about telling even when it's hard or scary, and also just plain how to talk about difficult things, because we don't come installed with those instructions. They were smart and brave and it's not the last time they will need to be, so helping them continue to develop the vocabulary to have hard discussions with you will be really valuable, including if this particular situation gets messy.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:24 PM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Kids worry about "telling" a lot, generally. So this definitely opens the door to an ongoing conversation about telling even when it's hard or scary, and also just plain how to talk about difficult things, because we don't come installed with those instructions. They were smart and brave and it's not the last time they will need to be, so helping them continue to develop the vocabulary to have hard discussions with you will be really valuable, including if this particular situation gets messy.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:24 PM on November 7, 2022 [7 favorites]
Best answer: if the boy ever wants to be invited to our home again he needs to understand that
but why is inviting into the home of two girls a boy who sexually assaulted both of them on the table at all?
I should also say that I will take my girls' opinions into account as well and if they don't want the kid back here, then he won't be back here.
"would you rather he not come back" or "is it okay if we invite him again" carry with them inherent pressure and a message about what the 'right' response is supposed to be, even if you mean to be nothing but sensitive and considerate. they are very probably capable of expressing their wishes even under pressure, but they should not have to do anything at all on top of what they have already done in order to have this little creep kept away from them. they should not be in a position to have to ask for that, or to feel that they are even partially responsible for it.
that doesn't mean he can't ever be invited again, just that they would have to independently and affirmatively ask for it. not consent to it with whatever unknowable degree of reluctance or obligation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:04 PM on November 7, 2022 [40 favorites]
but why is inviting into the home of two girls a boy who sexually assaulted both of them on the table at all?
I should also say that I will take my girls' opinions into account as well and if they don't want the kid back here, then he won't be back here.
"would you rather he not come back" or "is it okay if we invite him again" carry with them inherent pressure and a message about what the 'right' response is supposed to be, even if you mean to be nothing but sensitive and considerate. they are very probably capable of expressing their wishes even under pressure, but they should not have to do anything at all on top of what they have already done in order to have this little creep kept away from them. they should not be in a position to have to ask for that, or to feel that they are even partially responsible for it.
that doesn't mean he can't ever be invited again, just that they would have to independently and affirmatively ask for it. not consent to it with whatever unknowable degree of reluctance or obligation.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:04 PM on November 7, 2022 [40 favorites]
if it weren't for my husband possibly not wanting to estrange his sister,
I would not hesitate to estrange the crap out of his sister if she doesn't deal with this immediately and severely. I would also not hesitate to estrange the crap out of my husband if he wasn't on board with it.
This kind of molestation is not something to take lightly. Please put your childrens' safety above any other concerns.
This child should not ever have access to your daughters again, let alone in your own home.
posted by ananci at 5:24 PM on November 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
I would not hesitate to estrange the crap out of his sister if she doesn't deal with this immediately and severely. I would also not hesitate to estrange the crap out of my husband if he wasn't on board with it.
This kind of molestation is not something to take lightly. Please put your childrens' safety above any other concerns.
This child should not ever have access to your daughters again, let alone in your own home.
posted by ananci at 5:24 PM on November 7, 2022 [11 favorites]
This question warrants a more serious response than those of us in an online forum are able to provide. By that I mean, you need to reach out to a professional to help navigate this. If you are not sure where to start, I would suggest the guidance counselor at your daughter’s school or your daughter’s pediatrician as first points of contact. Do this first, and as soon as possible.
The way your question is framed seems to be largely focused on two things:
1. The motive for your nephew’s behavior.
2. The degree to which the motive for your nephew’s behavior should inform your response to his behavior.
I would like to suggest an alternate framing, which is this:
1. Your daughter has the absolute right to set physical boundaries with others regardless of the other person’s intention.
2. She needs to know that her caregivers will support her setting those boundaries regardless of the other person’s intention and without reservation.
Why involving outside help at this stage is crucial:
1. You wrote: “he groped her - not sure if her bottom or also genitals - while they were getting buckled into the backseat of the car; then groped her bottom and breast when they were getting into position for portraits.”
What you have just described is a form of sexual assault. Based on your description, your daughter was assaulted, multiple times, by a relative. Because of this, she may not be fully comfortable sharing all the details with you, her parents and caregivers on whom she is dependent.
2. You wrote: “I figure he's 13, probably a horny and overly excited child rather than a danger, and that having his aunt and uncle call him out in this fashion should hopefully embarrass him into cleaning up his act... is that realistic?”
You do not know what is going on in your nephew’s home. You might guess, but you do not know for sure. It is possible that someone in your nephew's life has sexually assaulted or otherwise been sexually inappropriate with him. It is also possible that your nephew has groped other children, not just your two daughters. That he was acting inappropriately on multiple occasions with multiple children suggests a pattern of behavior. A professional is in a far better position to evaluate this than you or your spouse.
Final Thoughts:
Treating this conscientiously and lovingly now will impact not only your daughter's relationship with you and your spouse, but her relationship with herself. I sense from your writing that this is what you hope to do, and will be sending positive thoughts your way.
Additional Resources:
RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) has a national hotline: 1-800-656-HOPE(4673) and website
Here is a resource for parents about discussing consent with children: 8 Ways to Teach Kids About Consent and Healthy Boundaries “Let children know they’re the boss of their bodies. […] Never force hugs, kisses or caresses as stand-ins for communication – even with relatives.”
Here is an article from Scarleteen, a website for teens, discussing groping and consent: If You Didn't Ask For It? Then You Didn't Ask For It “Culturally, "groping" is underplayed as an act of sexual assault, but that's exactly what it is, nonconsensual sexual touching.”
posted by panther of the pyrenees at 6:30 PM on November 7, 2022 [16 favorites]
The way your question is framed seems to be largely focused on two things:
1. The motive for your nephew’s behavior.
2. The degree to which the motive for your nephew’s behavior should inform your response to his behavior.
I would like to suggest an alternate framing, which is this:
1. Your daughter has the absolute right to set physical boundaries with others regardless of the other person’s intention.
2. She needs to know that her caregivers will support her setting those boundaries regardless of the other person’s intention and without reservation.
Why involving outside help at this stage is crucial:
1. You wrote: “he groped her - not sure if her bottom or also genitals - while they were getting buckled into the backseat of the car; then groped her bottom and breast when they were getting into position for portraits.”
What you have just described is a form of sexual assault. Based on your description, your daughter was assaulted, multiple times, by a relative. Because of this, she may not be fully comfortable sharing all the details with you, her parents and caregivers on whom she is dependent.
2. You wrote: “I figure he's 13, probably a horny and overly excited child rather than a danger, and that having his aunt and uncle call him out in this fashion should hopefully embarrass him into cleaning up his act... is that realistic?”
You do not know what is going on in your nephew’s home. You might guess, but you do not know for sure. It is possible that someone in your nephew's life has sexually assaulted or otherwise been sexually inappropriate with him. It is also possible that your nephew has groped other children, not just your two daughters. That he was acting inappropriately on multiple occasions with multiple children suggests a pattern of behavior. A professional is in a far better position to evaluate this than you or your spouse.
Final Thoughts:
Treating this conscientiously and lovingly now will impact not only your daughter's relationship with you and your spouse, but her relationship with herself. I sense from your writing that this is what you hope to do, and will be sending positive thoughts your way.
Additional Resources:
RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) has a national hotline: 1-800-656-HOPE(4673) and website
Here is a resource for parents about discussing consent with children: 8 Ways to Teach Kids About Consent and Healthy Boundaries “Let children know they’re the boss of their bodies. […] Never force hugs, kisses or caresses as stand-ins for communication – even with relatives.”
Here is an article from Scarleteen, a website for teens, discussing groping and consent: If You Didn't Ask For It? Then You Didn't Ask For It “Culturally, "groping" is underplayed as an act of sexual assault, but that's exactly what it is, nonconsensual sexual touching.”
posted by panther of the pyrenees at 6:30 PM on November 7, 2022 [16 favorites]
Expect some degree of denial or downplaying, but know that raising this with parents is important, no matter if this is the first or nth time they are fielding the report. They need to help their teen end the harm created, so the emphasis is on parents shepherding change. If you get the vibe that the parent/s is part of the problem, consult with your local sexual assault crisis response center. They help parents of survivors, as well as survivors.
posted by childofTethys at 9:27 PM on November 7, 2022
posted by childofTethys at 9:27 PM on November 7, 2022
You asked to hear from people in the position of your child. That’s me. Being groped, by anyone, at any age, is a HUGE deal. But a relative? When you’re too young to articulate everything that’s wrong with it and taking cues from your parents on how to respond? Enormous deal.
I wish my parents had let me speak to a counselor who would have helped me heal and corrected some of the toxic messages my parents/the world were sending. I’m sorry, but I have to say it sounds like you’re expressing one such toxic message here, which is that “boys will be boys.” Most of us have been young, horny and excited, but most of us do not touch our cousins’ bodies. Please don’t inadvertently normalize that to your child even if you personally believe it’s normal.
posted by kapers at 10:44 PM on November 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
I wish my parents had let me speak to a counselor who would have helped me heal and corrected some of the toxic messages my parents/the world were sending. I’m sorry, but I have to say it sounds like you’re expressing one such toxic message here, which is that “boys will be boys.” Most of us have been young, horny and excited, but most of us do not touch our cousins’ bodies. Please don’t inadvertently normalize that to your child even if you personally believe it’s normal.
posted by kapers at 10:44 PM on November 7, 2022 [15 favorites]
What would you do if your daughters were sexually assaulted by a stranger?
I think it's good to think about that. When you are more willing to give family the benefit of the doubt (making excuses, not going to the police, thinking about seeing the perpetrator again), you are sending a message to your kids that sexual violence by family members is ok. They will learn that you don't have their backs.
posted by medusa at 7:55 AM on November 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think it's good to think about that. When you are more willing to give family the benefit of the doubt (making excuses, not going to the police, thinking about seeing the perpetrator again), you are sending a message to your kids that sexual violence by family members is ok. They will learn that you don't have their backs.
posted by medusa at 7:55 AM on November 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
I should also say that I will take my girls' opinions into account as well and if they don't want the kid back here, then he won't be back here. We will be deciding as a family
I completely disagree with this. They're children and should not have a say in it for the very reason that giving them a choice implies a right or wrong answer. As the parent, you should say that kid is never welcome in your home again and let your daughters know their safety comes first. If they happen to object, then fine, talk about it, but I can't imagine they will.
posted by dobbs at 7:58 AM on November 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I completely disagree with this. They're children and should not have a say in it for the very reason that giving them a choice implies a right or wrong answer. As the parent, you should say that kid is never welcome in your home again and let your daughters know their safety comes first. If they happen to object, then fine, talk about it, but I can't imagine they will.
posted by dobbs at 7:58 AM on November 8, 2022 [6 favorites]
I’m sorry, but I have to say it sounds like you’re expressing one such toxic message here, which is that “boys will be boys.” Most of us have been young, horny and excited, but most of us do not touch our cousins’ bodies.
1000% this. You are (probably inadvertently) downplaying how serious this is. It's also very disturbing to me that he did this when other people were around. This suggests that he feels like he can act with impunity ("boys will be boys") or that he is having difficulty controlling his impulses. Both possibilities are dangerous. I doubt your daughters are the only people he's assaulted.
posted by Mavri at 8:21 AM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
1000% this. You are (probably inadvertently) downplaying how serious this is. It's also very disturbing to me that he did this when other people were around. This suggests that he feels like he can act with impunity ("boys will be boys") or that he is having difficulty controlling his impulses. Both possibilities are dangerous. I doubt your daughters are the only people he's assaulted.
posted by Mavri at 8:21 AM on November 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
No matter what else you do, please find your daughters a professional therapist to speak with so they have a safe, outside-the-family place to discuss their feelings. They absolutely will need help to understand their own emotions, articulate them, and set their own expectations and boundaries going forward, and that will be easier to achieve outside of the (intentional or unintentional) pressures toward family unity.
I do not know what ripple effects this may have in terms of mandated reporting, but I do know that your daughters need and deserve that space.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:45 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do not know what ripple effects this may have in terms of mandated reporting, but I do know that your daughters need and deserve that space.
posted by CtrlAltDelete at 9:45 AM on November 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just want to add that I volunteered at a treatment center for teens who had sexually assaulted other kids and the staff there let me know my first day that every single kid who had ever been there had previously been sexually assaulted themselves. His behavior is horrible and unacceptable, but he is almost certainly reacting to his own trauma and will need help himself.
posted by tangosnail at 1:10 PM on November 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tangosnail at 1:10 PM on November 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: thought I'd update this as against the possibility of another parent being in the same boat.
while some of these answers skidded into fantasyland in true Green fashion (the police do not come out to arrest 13 year olds for touching their cousins' butts) I appreciated the reminder that there is no good reason to consult my girls on whether to allow the kid back here. It is my job to keep them safe and set the rules for our home, not theirs.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:00 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
while some of these answers skidded into fantasyland in true Green fashion (the police do not come out to arrest 13 year olds for touching their cousins' butts) I appreciated the reminder that there is no good reason to consult my girls on whether to allow the kid back here. It is my job to keep them safe and set the rules for our home, not theirs.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:00 PM on November 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't know that anyone was suggesting that they would come out and whack him in handcuffs. There are definitely places (including where I live) where what you're describing is sexual assault, and law enforcement would be involved when a teenager sexually assaults other people on two occasions (and where I live, this would likely be considered sexual assault). It would usually be as part of a package of support for the offender aimed at averting future offending, not as an arrest. If he's done it these two times that you know about, he's almost certainly done it to other people too, and some kind of expert intervention seems wise, both for the sake of his own future, and of people who might cross his path in future when his lack of appropriate sexual boundaries has scope to become an even greater problem.
Sounds like groping isn't considered a sexual assault in the US, but it is an offence of some kind in most states.
(Btw, your follow-up is kinda "He only touched his cousin's butt, the Green is being OTT!" In your post you refer to it as groping and say that he touched your daughter's breast. This article is worth a read if you feel like people in-thread are going overboard: "Language has such power. When we deny victims the words to describe and define their own experiences we actively disempower them and distance them from justice. We owe it to all survivors to start describing “groping” and “fondling” by their real name: sexual assault.")
posted by penguin pie at 4:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sounds like groping isn't considered a sexual assault in the US, but it is an offence of some kind in most states.
(Btw, your follow-up is kinda "He only touched his cousin's butt, the Green is being OTT!" In your post you refer to it as groping and say that he touched your daughter's breast. This article is worth a read if you feel like people in-thread are going overboard: "Language has such power. When we deny victims the words to describe and define their own experiences we actively disempower them and distance them from justice. We owe it to all survivors to start describing “groping” and “fondling” by their real name: sexual assault.")
posted by penguin pie at 4:44 AM on November 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: oh one other data point that others may find useful: there exists a category of therapists who specialize in treating sexually inappropriate teenagers, attempting to instill (with what degree of effectiveness I have no idea) concepts of consent, respecting others' bodily autonomy, curbing impulsivity, etc.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:11 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:11 AM on November 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
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