Help with noise mitigation and the MTA
August 25, 2022 6:28 AM
New Yorkers, we need your advice about noise and city politics! The MTA renovated the elevator of the subway station next to us and installed an industrial fan that is insanely loud and keeps us up at night. Would love advice on city politics but more importantly on how we can mitigate the noise, for example through white noise machines or double-paned windows. Any non-expensive sound-proofing advice would be much appreciated.
Some more background: The sound of the fan runs all day and night, every ten minutes, and ricochets between the surrounding buildings (of which we are one), echoing louder and louder. By the time it reaches our window, it sounds like a jet turbine. We've called 311 and 511 and the NYC Dept of Environmental Protection just did a noise reading and found it did violate code, but it seems like the process is very slow (MTA can appeal several times) and non-transparent (we're not allowed to know anything). Friends of ours have suggested working with our city council member (which is happening), as well as contacting state legislative representatives and an MTA administrative official. Do people have other avenues we haven't explored?
Perhaps more importantly, I'm wondering if people have advice on sound-proofing our apartment without too much cost. We have three windows in our living room and the sound seems to vibrate out of that. One person recommended installing new windows, which seems very expensive, but perhaps a more complete option. Does anyone have advice on this? What are the pros and cons on double-pane vs sound-proofing?
Would a white noise machine help for this kind of thing, where the noise is periodic? What is a good brand/model? What are solutions that would still allow us to open the windows? Are there other things we haven't thought of? (My partner does not like ear plugs.)
This thread recommended heavy curtains. Is there a specific kind of thickness or specification to look into there?
Some more background: The sound of the fan runs all day and night, every ten minutes, and ricochets between the surrounding buildings (of which we are one), echoing louder and louder. By the time it reaches our window, it sounds like a jet turbine. We've called 311 and 511 and the NYC Dept of Environmental Protection just did a noise reading and found it did violate code, but it seems like the process is very slow (MTA can appeal several times) and non-transparent (we're not allowed to know anything). Friends of ours have suggested working with our city council member (which is happening), as well as contacting state legislative representatives and an MTA administrative official. Do people have other avenues we haven't explored?
Perhaps more importantly, I'm wondering if people have advice on sound-proofing our apartment without too much cost. We have three windows in our living room and the sound seems to vibrate out of that. One person recommended installing new windows, which seems very expensive, but perhaps a more complete option. Does anyone have advice on this? What are the pros and cons on double-pane vs sound-proofing?
Would a white noise machine help for this kind of thing, where the noise is periodic? What is a good brand/model? What are solutions that would still allow us to open the windows? Are there other things we haven't thought of? (My partner does not like ear plugs.)
This thread recommended heavy curtains. Is there a specific kind of thickness or specification to look into there?
I doubt that a white noise machine would help, since the fan actually is white noise, but very loud white noise. You'd have to put in an even louder one to mask it.
You don't mention how close you are to the fan or what your building is made of. But chances are, and let's assume, that most of the sound is coming in through your windows (as you say, also), so that's where you need to focus your mitigation measures. Heavy curtains will muffle it a bit, but they do nothing to stop the noise from coming through your windows; they just cut down on it a bit after it is already in your living space. And even if they worked satisfactorily (not likely) they would have to be closed 24/7. Might as well brick up the windows.
So I recommend exploring the installation of double-paned interior storm windows, tightly fitted into your window openings. Google the term double pane interior storms for sound mitigation and a variety of options come up. In New York, it is likely that glass shops and window contractors are very familiar with this problem and can offer solutions. We're not talking about replacing your windows entirely, just fitting good storms on the inside. (Or on the outside, if that's an option.)
This won't be cheap; you might spend $500-$1000 per window depending on size and type of storm. But it will work. I have seen fancy windows like this installed in a hotel in a very noisy location. They were of a design where you could actually open both the storm and the exterior window, letting in all the noise. When you closed them again, it was as if you had flipped a switch turning off all the noise.
If you wanted to test this for next to no money, go out and buy enough rigid insulating foam to cover all the windows. Cut it precisely to size, so there is no opening at the edges, and install it in the window. Seal the edges with painters tape. Do this on all the windows that admit the noise. This simulates the effect of the double-pane storms and should tell you whether it's worth it to go that route.
posted by beagle at 7:25 AM on August 25, 2022
You don't mention how close you are to the fan or what your building is made of. But chances are, and let's assume, that most of the sound is coming in through your windows (as you say, also), so that's where you need to focus your mitigation measures. Heavy curtains will muffle it a bit, but they do nothing to stop the noise from coming through your windows; they just cut down on it a bit after it is already in your living space. And even if they worked satisfactorily (not likely) they would have to be closed 24/7. Might as well brick up the windows.
So I recommend exploring the installation of double-paned interior storm windows, tightly fitted into your window openings. Google the term double pane interior storms for sound mitigation and a variety of options come up. In New York, it is likely that glass shops and window contractors are very familiar with this problem and can offer solutions. We're not talking about replacing your windows entirely, just fitting good storms on the inside. (Or on the outside, if that's an option.)
This won't be cheap; you might spend $500-$1000 per window depending on size and type of storm. But it will work. I have seen fancy windows like this installed in a hotel in a very noisy location. They were of a design where you could actually open both the storm and the exterior window, letting in all the noise. When you closed them again, it was as if you had flipped a switch turning off all the noise.
If you wanted to test this for next to no money, go out and buy enough rigid insulating foam to cover all the windows. Cut it precisely to size, so there is no opening at the edges, and install it in the window. Seal the edges with painters tape. Do this on all the windows that admit the noise. This simulates the effect of the double-pane storms and should tell you whether it's worth it to go that route.
posted by beagle at 7:25 AM on August 25, 2022
Are there other things we haven't thought of?
You probably have thought of it, but active-noise-cancelling headphones might help you keep your sanity during the day, or at least offer temporary respite. My experience[*] has been that on-ear ones can do a decent job of cancelling that sort of noise while also letting other sounds through, which would let you talk to each other with them on (although I grant you'll probably feel ridiculous).
[*] I used to have a pair of Sennheiser on-ear headphones for travel, and found it much easier to hear what the flight attendants were asking me on aeroplanes if I kept my headphones on (and paused my music); I've now got in-ear ones, and that trick doesn't work any more, I have to actually take them out and cope with the engine roar. Pretty sure over-ear ones would have the same problem.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:11 AM on August 25, 2022
You probably have thought of it, but active-noise-cancelling headphones might help you keep your sanity during the day, or at least offer temporary respite. My experience[*] has been that on-ear ones can do a decent job of cancelling that sort of noise while also letting other sounds through, which would let you talk to each other with them on (although I grant you'll probably feel ridiculous).
[*] I used to have a pair of Sennheiser on-ear headphones for travel, and found it much easier to hear what the flight attendants were asking me on aeroplanes if I kept my headphones on (and paused my music); I've now got in-ear ones, and that trick doesn't work any more, I have to actually take them out and cope with the engine roar. Pretty sure over-ear ones would have the same problem.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:11 AM on August 25, 2022
No advice on the noise-cancelling, but urging you to yes, escalate this to your State Representative. I was having a different state-bureaucracy issue (my state tax refund was held up for MONTHS this year), and things finally got going when I called my state rep (someone from his office got on it, called the tax office in Albany, and found out that someone had simply forgotten my return on their desk or something; my return was processed within 2 weeks after that).
This is what we elect them for, is to help us with stuff like this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:02 AM on August 25, 2022
This is what we elect them for, is to help us with stuff like this.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:02 AM on August 25, 2022
One thought as to how the city could address this: If the fan is coming on for a few minutes every 10 minutes, they could probably adjust it so it runs continuously but at a much lower speed, and therefore with less noise. The functionality would not change, it would be moving the same amount of air over time.
posted by beagle at 10:55 AM on August 25, 2022
posted by beagle at 10:55 AM on August 25, 2022
Since the fan noise is intermittent, I suggest you do try a white noise machine for now. It won't mask the noise of the fan, but it'll raise the background level so that the difference isn't so shocking and hopefully doesn't wake you up.
Search for "pink noise" on YouTube or Spotify, you should be able to find an hours-long track you can put on repeat to try this out. The machines are not too expensive, and the Wirecutter guide has good options.
posted by hovey at 9:30 PM on August 25, 2022
Search for "pink noise" on YouTube or Spotify, you should be able to find an hours-long track you can put on repeat to try this out. The machines are not too expensive, and the Wirecutter guide has good options.
posted by hovey at 9:30 PM on August 25, 2022
City Councilperson’s office was the right call and Empress Callipygos is also onto something to suggest you reach out to your State Senator and Assemblymember as the MTA is a state-city collaborative shitshow.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:13 AM on August 26, 2022
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:13 AM on August 26, 2022
Sorry for just writing now. So we've gotten the okay from our board to start talking to our state assembly people and also reaching out to other branches of the MTA. It seems like the MTA has agreed to change the fans from one big one to several smaller ones, but it seems like this may take a very long timer and also it's not clear if this will solve the problem. If you've contacted your state legislators (or MTA administrators) before, do you have any advice? Do I need to organize a lot of residents here or can I just call and casually explain my situation?
posted by johnasdf at 8:35 AM on September 1, 2022
posted by johnasdf at 8:35 AM on September 1, 2022
My situation was different because I was the only one affected, so I just called - but that didn't seem to matter that it was just one person, they came to my aid anyway.
If your representative is a good one, they should be responding to you no matter how you contact them. But having a bunch of people involved may emphasize that "multiple people are being affected by this," which will increase the odds of even a lackluster representative taking action.
I'd maybe start with just a call, saying that you and your neighbors are being affected; and if they don't respond after a couple weeks, then maybe a letter signed by multiple people in your building is a way to escalate things. But if your rep is good, a simple call would be just fine. You'll probably be speaking to a junior staffer who will take notes and then pass your message along; don't worry if it takes a few days for someone to call you back.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:50 AM on September 1, 2022
If your representative is a good one, they should be responding to you no matter how you contact them. But having a bunch of people involved may emphasize that "multiple people are being affected by this," which will increase the odds of even a lackluster representative taking action.
I'd maybe start with just a call, saying that you and your neighbors are being affected; and if they don't respond after a couple weeks, then maybe a letter signed by multiple people in your building is a way to escalate things. But if your rep is good, a simple call would be just fine. You'll probably be speaking to a junior staffer who will take notes and then pass your message along; don't worry if it takes a few days for someone to call you back.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:50 AM on September 1, 2022
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is a very active subreddit, you might try there too
posted by allelopath at 7:16 AM on August 25, 2022