No longer avoiding conflict, now what?
May 8, 2022 10:37 PM
In the last few months, with the help of my therapist, I've realised how much of my behaviour is about avoiding conflict, tamping down anger, and trying to please /control people.
Now that I'm trying to change this behaviour, I'm having a difficult time trusting myself. Knowing when I'm being honest and open, and when I'm being hypersensitive, dishonest and manipulative. I don't have a therapist at the moment so I'm hoping to get some perspective here.
My family are rather surprised by the changes in the way I'm behaving now, as I'm no longer backing away from confrontation so much.
But they push back by suggesting (in genuinely loving ways) that I'm being unreasonably sensitive because of my anxiety or stress.
Which is, sometimes, true.
And sometimes, when I think about what's really motivating my anger, it's about controlling *them*. I want them to not be unhappy around me, or I'm worried how other people judge their actions.
Or I want them to stop doing something because it makes me angry, and that's really my problem. I can just be angry and get over it.
I think I'm caught in a pattern where we've all been trying to tamp down one another's anger because of a belief that our emotions are dangerous, and now that I'm stepping out of the pattern it's jamming up the system.
When I show that I'm upset, they react as if I'm attacking them. It genuinely seems to hurt them and it makes me feel like a cruel bully.
I try to be careful to only talk about my own feelings ("when you did x, it made me feel y" ) rather than using aggressive language ("you always do x!") but so far that hasn't helped much.
I'm not sure how to judge when I'm being honest about my feelings, and when I am actually being a self righteous bully.
My family are rather surprised by the changes in the way I'm behaving now, as I'm no longer backing away from confrontation so much.
But they push back by suggesting (in genuinely loving ways) that I'm being unreasonably sensitive because of my anxiety or stress.
Which is, sometimes, true.
And sometimes, when I think about what's really motivating my anger, it's about controlling *them*. I want them to not be unhappy around me, or I'm worried how other people judge their actions.
Or I want them to stop doing something because it makes me angry, and that's really my problem. I can just be angry and get over it.
I think I'm caught in a pattern where we've all been trying to tamp down one another's anger because of a belief that our emotions are dangerous, and now that I'm stepping out of the pattern it's jamming up the system.
When I show that I'm upset, they react as if I'm attacking them. It genuinely seems to hurt them and it makes me feel like a cruel bully.
I try to be careful to only talk about my own feelings ("when you did x, it made me feel y" ) rather than using aggressive language ("you always do x!") but so far that hasn't helped much.
I'm not sure how to judge when I'm being honest about my feelings, and when I am actually being a self righteous bully.
Changing the way you interact with a close knit group requires treating that change as a long game and playing accordingly. The way to win the long game is with consistency and persistence over many, many interactions. Winning any particular conflict matters a whole lot less, and readiness to walk away from a confrontation that's clearly turning unproductive in the moment is an improvable skill in its own right.
posted by flabdablet at 11:38 PM on May 8, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 11:38 PM on May 8, 2022
I've been going through something related, where I'm trying to recalibrate my internal emotional sense. It's difficult to do and I think it's inevitable that you will hurt people's feelings along the way. I would recommend trying to separate "being a self-righteous bully" from "unnecessarily upsetting your family". Nothing you've written makes you sound self-righteous at all, and by questioning your actions you are in fact doing the exact opposite. I've been around people who are emotional bullies, and what makes them bullies is that they react aggressively and double down when people question their behavior/emotions. I really doubt you're doing anything close to this, or are being cruel in any way.
But, suddenly acting in a more emotional manner can still cause real practical and social issues, despite your best intentions. Part of the issue here is that your family has an existing view of your range of emotional behavior and it's out of date with who you are now. If you've been very avoidant and reserved up until this point, they will interpret "normal" emotional displays as extreme, because they are comparing it to how you used to act. It takes some time for people to update their perception of you, and this will get better over time as they get used to how you are now.
Honestly it sounds like you are doing things correctly, but are just partway through the process. When your family gives you feedback that you're being too angry/etc, you can try to figure out if the the problem is your emotional behavior, or their outdated expectations. One option is to imagine how an emotional role model would behave in that situation. This role model can be anyone (even fictional), but pick someone that seems to react in an appropriately emotional manner in difficult situations. Then, you can compare your own behavior and emotional displays to your emotional role model.
From what you write, the only case that strikes me as problematic is the anger that you can't protect and control the behavior of your family. When you feel yourself start to get angry, ask yourself why and use that information to try and adjust your behavior. If you feel angry because someone did something bad to you, expressing it is usually good because it gives the other person feedback that will tell them to stop the upsetting behavior. But, if you're angry for complicated reasons related to your own issues, expressing that anger isn't really that useful because it's confusing and they may guess wrong about what caused it. Those are the situations where it makes sense to try and hold it back for a bit, then express it later when you're by yourself or with someone who isn't involved in the situation.
Anyway, it really does sound like you're doing a great job at this, and just haven't finished the process. That's great! It sounds like your family is supportive but a bit irritated, so acknowledging their feedback and apologizing when it makes sense will go a long way towards dealing with any issues.
posted by JZig at 11:55 PM on May 8, 2022
But, suddenly acting in a more emotional manner can still cause real practical and social issues, despite your best intentions. Part of the issue here is that your family has an existing view of your range of emotional behavior and it's out of date with who you are now. If you've been very avoidant and reserved up until this point, they will interpret "normal" emotional displays as extreme, because they are comparing it to how you used to act. It takes some time for people to update their perception of you, and this will get better over time as they get used to how you are now.
Honestly it sounds like you are doing things correctly, but are just partway through the process. When your family gives you feedback that you're being too angry/etc, you can try to figure out if the the problem is your emotional behavior, or their outdated expectations. One option is to imagine how an emotional role model would behave in that situation. This role model can be anyone (even fictional), but pick someone that seems to react in an appropriately emotional manner in difficult situations. Then, you can compare your own behavior and emotional displays to your emotional role model.
From what you write, the only case that strikes me as problematic is the anger that you can't protect and control the behavior of your family. When you feel yourself start to get angry, ask yourself why and use that information to try and adjust your behavior. If you feel angry because someone did something bad to you, expressing it is usually good because it gives the other person feedback that will tell them to stop the upsetting behavior. But, if you're angry for complicated reasons related to your own issues, expressing that anger isn't really that useful because it's confusing and they may guess wrong about what caused it. Those are the situations where it makes sense to try and hold it back for a bit, then express it later when you're by yourself or with someone who isn't involved in the situation.
Anyway, it really does sound like you're doing a great job at this, and just haven't finished the process. That's great! It sounds like your family is supportive but a bit irritated, so acknowledging their feedback and apologizing when it makes sense will go a long way towards dealing with any issues.
posted by JZig at 11:55 PM on May 8, 2022
I have someone in my life who is very sensitive, and gets very anxious about rocking the boat. To the extent they don't want anyone else to have conflict, either, and they deny problems, tune things out, and pick small things to death instead of facing big issues.
It can feel exhausting and controlling and like reality is being questioned, even though I'm sympathetic to the anxiety and fear at the root of it.
If that sounds like you, and the traits you're working on, then maybe I can talk from your family's POV.
First, they're really proud of you for working on your stuff! They love you and want what's best for you.
But change is hard. When one person changes, it sends ripples. They're adjusting, just like you're adjusting. They woke up and the sky is purple.
That doesn't mean you should stop. You can add a dose of empathy if you wish. "I know this is a different me, I know change is a challenge."
And remember that a reasonable, calmly stated boundary is always within your rights. Their reactions are not your responsibility.
If my avoidant person pipes up, I flounder a bit, not because I'm angry or abusing them, but because it's different. Different is weird.
Then I get myself in gear and cheer them on.
My floundering is my responsibility, not theirs. And I learn from it.
Let your family flounder, they might find some growth in there.
All of you are doing great things.
posted by champers at 3:58 AM on May 9, 2022
It can feel exhausting and controlling and like reality is being questioned, even though I'm sympathetic to the anxiety and fear at the root of it.
If that sounds like you, and the traits you're working on, then maybe I can talk from your family's POV.
First, they're really proud of you for working on your stuff! They love you and want what's best for you.
But change is hard. When one person changes, it sends ripples. They're adjusting, just like you're adjusting. They woke up and the sky is purple.
That doesn't mean you should stop. You can add a dose of empathy if you wish. "I know this is a different me, I know change is a challenge."
And remember that a reasonable, calmly stated boundary is always within your rights. Their reactions are not your responsibility.
If my avoidant person pipes up, I flounder a bit, not because I'm angry or abusing them, but because it's different. Different is weird.
Then I get myself in gear and cheer them on.
My floundering is my responsibility, not theirs. And I learn from it.
Let your family flounder, they might find some growth in there.
All of you are doing great things.
posted by champers at 3:58 AM on May 9, 2022
how much of my behaviour is about avoiding conflict, tamping down anger, and trying to please /control people.
I have a relative who describes their semi-recent changes in interactional style in these terms, and they are indeed now very much now seeking to use conflict/anger to control others. So I do really think it's good to be asking these questions. (Of course, some major differences: this change all came about at the behest of a very controlling spouse who is deep in DARVO territory, as opposed to a therapist; and these are not questions that they would or have actually asked themselves.)
So, some questions to consider: is the level of anger/conflict commensurate with the target and the source/triggers of the anger, i.e. is it really about them or is it about you? When engaging in conflict do you actually listen to the other parties and trust what they say? If you are unable to in the moment do you have strategies for successful communication later that works towards resolution? When engaging in conflict / displays of anger do you have an accurate assessment of the impact on other people, or is the function primarily to relieve your own feelings? Do you have strategies for expressing your feelings that mitigates potential harms, e.g. not showing anger directly, or are you lashing out in harmful ways? (Fair warning, to those who aren't very into conflict a lot of things come across as "lashing out".) And it sounds like no, but really important: are you doing this at the behest of someone else, including indirectly?
Let your family flounder, they might find some growth in there.
Honestly, as blanket advice? Hard disagree...their growth in the very worst case could come at the cost of estrangement.
posted by advil at 6:42 AM on May 9, 2022
I have a relative who describes their semi-recent changes in interactional style in these terms, and they are indeed now very much now seeking to use conflict/anger to control others. So I do really think it's good to be asking these questions. (Of course, some major differences: this change all came about at the behest of a very controlling spouse who is deep in DARVO territory, as opposed to a therapist; and these are not questions that they would or have actually asked themselves.)
So, some questions to consider: is the level of anger/conflict commensurate with the target and the source/triggers of the anger, i.e. is it really about them or is it about you? When engaging in conflict do you actually listen to the other parties and trust what they say? If you are unable to in the moment do you have strategies for successful communication later that works towards resolution? When engaging in conflict / displays of anger do you have an accurate assessment of the impact on other people, or is the function primarily to relieve your own feelings? Do you have strategies for expressing your feelings that mitigates potential harms, e.g. not showing anger directly, or are you lashing out in harmful ways? (Fair warning, to those who aren't very into conflict a lot of things come across as "lashing out".) And it sounds like no, but really important: are you doing this at the behest of someone else, including indirectly?
Let your family flounder, they might find some growth in there.
Honestly, as blanket advice? Hard disagree...their growth in the very worst case could come at the cost of estrangement.
posted by advil at 6:42 AM on May 9, 2022
I try to be careful to only talk about my own feelings ("when you did x, it made me feel y" ) rather than using aggressive language ("you always do x!") but so far that hasn't helped much.
When you have to tell someone something that they don't want to hear, there's no way to do it in a way that will make them want to hear it. You have to make peace with that.
Sometimes people have a conflict of interest, and there's no win-win solution. So if you protect your interest, that means that whatever solution you find will be sub-optimal for them. That doesn't mean that either of you is a bully or a cruel or wrong. But it means that people won't be pleased. And that's okay. You don't have to please people, and they don't have to please you. And when you don't please each other, you can both say so. That's what a conflict is all about. It's necessarily an unpleasant affair and there's no way to make it otherwise. But afterwards everyone knows where they stand, and that's often worth quite a lot. It's easier to delight in clear skies, if you don't always look for the storm brewing.
When you tell someone that something they do makes you feel bad, you don't want them to feel attacked. When they question whether you are overly sensitive, they probably don't want to you to feel like a cruel bully, I could imagine. Everyone involved might have the best intentions, but you're trying to tell each other how to feel, and that's just pointless. I mean, overly sensitive, what a useless observation! Overly sensitive compared to whom? The average person? You have no obligation whatsoever to feel like an average person would.
The way to restore harmony, as recommended by countless self-help manuals, and communication guides, is usually not to make the conflict go over any more smoothly. I mean I guess there are ways to not make it worse than it has to be and you seem to be already using those, with all the I-messages and everything . But you can't decide to face the storm and expect smooth sailing.
So, the suggestion is usually not to make the unpleasant interaction more pleasant. The suggestion usually is to follow up the unpleasant interaction with more pleasant ones. As long as the ratio of pleasant to unpleasant interactions is favourable, the relationship is probably fine. They did studies about this and everything, and it sounds pretty plausible to me. You speak your mind to clear the air, feelings run high, then everyone sits with their feelings for a bit, people adjust their behavior/and or expectations, and ideally, the issue never comes up again. Especially if emotions were really just fueled by unncessary worries, which can happen to best of us, but there's not much harm in it, no?
When someone tells me I'm being overly sensitive I tell them, great, if it's not a big deal to you, you surely won't mind humouring me, will you?
posted by sohalt at 8:09 AM on May 9, 2022
When you have to tell someone something that they don't want to hear, there's no way to do it in a way that will make them want to hear it. You have to make peace with that.
Sometimes people have a conflict of interest, and there's no win-win solution. So if you protect your interest, that means that whatever solution you find will be sub-optimal for them. That doesn't mean that either of you is a bully or a cruel or wrong. But it means that people won't be pleased. And that's okay. You don't have to please people, and they don't have to please you. And when you don't please each other, you can both say so. That's what a conflict is all about. It's necessarily an unpleasant affair and there's no way to make it otherwise. But afterwards everyone knows where they stand, and that's often worth quite a lot. It's easier to delight in clear skies, if you don't always look for the storm brewing.
When you tell someone that something they do makes you feel bad, you don't want them to feel attacked. When they question whether you are overly sensitive, they probably don't want to you to feel like a cruel bully, I could imagine. Everyone involved might have the best intentions, but you're trying to tell each other how to feel, and that's just pointless. I mean, overly sensitive, what a useless observation! Overly sensitive compared to whom? The average person? You have no obligation whatsoever to feel like an average person would.
The way to restore harmony, as recommended by countless self-help manuals, and communication guides, is usually not to make the conflict go over any more smoothly. I mean I guess there are ways to not make it worse than it has to be and you seem to be already using those, with all the I-messages and everything . But you can't decide to face the storm and expect smooth sailing.
So, the suggestion is usually not to make the unpleasant interaction more pleasant. The suggestion usually is to follow up the unpleasant interaction with more pleasant ones. As long as the ratio of pleasant to unpleasant interactions is favourable, the relationship is probably fine. They did studies about this and everything, and it sounds pretty plausible to me. You speak your mind to clear the air, feelings run high, then everyone sits with their feelings for a bit, people adjust their behavior/and or expectations, and ideally, the issue never comes up again. Especially if emotions were really just fueled by unncessary worries, which can happen to best of us, but there's not much harm in it, no?
When someone tells me I'm being overly sensitive I tell them, great, if it's not a big deal to you, you surely won't mind humouring me, will you?
posted by sohalt at 8:09 AM on May 9, 2022
Thanks every answer has been very helpful.
A follow up question. (And maybe this is a "how long is a piece of string" type question.)
I'm realising that in my thinking around how no longer to avoid conflict, I'm still thinking about it in conflict-avoiding ways. "how can I have this conversation without upsetting anyone" or "how can I have this conversation without hurting anyone". Or even "how can I have this conversation without having to listen to some uncomfortable home truths about myself".
So I need to know what my goal is. To find a way to communicate so that I will be heard?
To give the person information they need so they can know what I need, in case they choose to listen?
How they respond (with anger, hurt, judgement etc) is up to them?
I think I'm still trying to control the situation, out of fear of conflict.
posted by Zumbador at 9:03 AM on May 9, 2022
A follow up question. (And maybe this is a "how long is a piece of string" type question.)
I'm realising that in my thinking around how no longer to avoid conflict, I'm still thinking about it in conflict-avoiding ways. "how can I have this conversation without upsetting anyone" or "how can I have this conversation without hurting anyone". Or even "how can I have this conversation without having to listen to some uncomfortable home truths about myself".
So I need to know what my goal is. To find a way to communicate so that I will be heard?
To give the person information they need so they can know what I need, in case they choose to listen?
How they respond (with anger, hurt, judgement etc) is up to them?
I think I'm still trying to control the situation, out of fear of conflict.
posted by Zumbador at 9:03 AM on May 9, 2022
I would have a look at the book: The Assertiveness Workbook by Randy J. Paterson. It's helped me a lot to understand the difference between assertiveness, passive-aggression, aggression, etc.
posted by VirginiaPlain at 9:29 AM on May 9, 2022
posted by VirginiaPlain at 9:29 AM on May 9, 2022
You might benefit from DBT skills (like the DEARMAN technique of making requests). Here’s an overview of the approach to interpersonal communication:
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/interpersonal-effectiveness-dialectical-behavior-therapy-dbt-0416134
If interested, you could take a look at r/dbtselfhelp and search Spotify for DBT podcasts.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:47 AM on May 9, 2022
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/interpersonal-effectiveness-dialectical-behavior-therapy-dbt-0416134
If interested, you could take a look at r/dbtselfhelp and search Spotify for DBT podcasts.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:47 AM on May 9, 2022
I need to know what my goal is. To find a way to communicate so that I will be heard?
Your being heard can never be guaranteed, but it's open to some degree of influence. There are certainly ways to say your say that almost guarantee you won't be heard, and it's entirely possible that avoiding most of those is the best you can do. People are complicated.
To give the person information they need so they can know what I need, in case they choose to listen?
I'd go with "to offer" rather than "to give", but I think this is an essentially sound approach and it's generally the one I prefer to use personally.
How they respond (with anger, hurt, judgement etc) is up to them?
Mostly. It's usually possible to exert some degree of influence over the way another person responds to you. The better you know somebody the easier it will be to spot their anger, hurt or judgement buttons.
Again, intent matters. Sometimes the thing you hope that somebody will choose to listen to is also something you can't work out how to offer them without mashing one of those buttons. Whether the risk is worthwhile is always going to be a judgement call. Mashing them deliberately can be tremendously satisfying in the moment especially when emotions are running high, but is often not strategically sound.
The basic thing to remember at all times is that seeking to control other people is straight-up oppressive, while seeking to influence other people can range anywhere from completely benign to downright manipulative. As long as most of what you do sticks as close as you can get to the benign end of that range you'll probably do OK in the long run, as every conscientious parent eventually learns.
sohalt is completely right to point out that trying to make conflict not feel bad is pretty much pointless. It just does feel bad. If it didn't, it wouldn't be conflict. But it is also the case that just because something feels a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that it is that way. A short, open conflict that opens a path to resolution is generally a healthier thing than prolonged oppression and suffering.
"how can I have this conversation without having to listen to some uncomfortable home truths about myself"
By taking everything that anybody else says about you with a grain of salt rather than immediately accepting it at face value.
It's not by any means automatic that discomfiting things that other people say about us, whether to our faces or behind our backs, are in fact home truths. How seriously we need to take these things depends quite a lot on how much we trust the judgement of the people who say them.
Actual truths about ourselves are always valuable, whether uncomfortable or not, but we need to credit other people with at least as keen an ability to get the wrong end of the stick as we know perfectly well that we have ourselves.
Also, for what it's worth, I've always enjoyed your contributions on this site and definitely think of you as somebody I'd enjoy interacting with face to face should the opportunity arise. Don't let the bastards grind you down, let your freak flag fly etc etc etc.
posted by flabdablet at 10:29 AM on May 9, 2022
Your being heard can never be guaranteed, but it's open to some degree of influence. There are certainly ways to say your say that almost guarantee you won't be heard, and it's entirely possible that avoiding most of those is the best you can do. People are complicated.
To give the person information they need so they can know what I need, in case they choose to listen?
I'd go with "to offer" rather than "to give", but I think this is an essentially sound approach and it's generally the one I prefer to use personally.
How they respond (with anger, hurt, judgement etc) is up to them?
Mostly. It's usually possible to exert some degree of influence over the way another person responds to you. The better you know somebody the easier it will be to spot their anger, hurt or judgement buttons.
Again, intent matters. Sometimes the thing you hope that somebody will choose to listen to is also something you can't work out how to offer them without mashing one of those buttons. Whether the risk is worthwhile is always going to be a judgement call. Mashing them deliberately can be tremendously satisfying in the moment especially when emotions are running high, but is often not strategically sound.
The basic thing to remember at all times is that seeking to control other people is straight-up oppressive, while seeking to influence other people can range anywhere from completely benign to downright manipulative. As long as most of what you do sticks as close as you can get to the benign end of that range you'll probably do OK in the long run, as every conscientious parent eventually learns.
sohalt is completely right to point out that trying to make conflict not feel bad is pretty much pointless. It just does feel bad. If it didn't, it wouldn't be conflict. But it is also the case that just because something feels a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that it is that way. A short, open conflict that opens a path to resolution is generally a healthier thing than prolonged oppression and suffering.
"how can I have this conversation without having to listen to some uncomfortable home truths about myself"
By taking everything that anybody else says about you with a grain of salt rather than immediately accepting it at face value.
It's not by any means automatic that discomfiting things that other people say about us, whether to our faces or behind our backs, are in fact home truths. How seriously we need to take these things depends quite a lot on how much we trust the judgement of the people who say them.
Actual truths about ourselves are always valuable, whether uncomfortable or not, but we need to credit other people with at least as keen an ability to get the wrong end of the stick as we know perfectly well that we have ourselves.
Also, for what it's worth, I've always enjoyed your contributions on this site and definitely think of you as somebody I'd enjoy interacting with face to face should the opportunity arise. Don't let the bastards grind you down, let your freak flag fly etc etc etc.
posted by flabdablet at 10:29 AM on May 9, 2022
> When I show that I'm upset, they react as if I'm attacking them. It genuinely seems to hurt them and it makes me feel like a cruel bully.
People having negative feelings towards us is super stressful. It's completely human to feel distressed when a loved one feels hurt by us or is angry with us (or even just a random acquaintance!), doubly or triply or quadruply so when it's for "unfair" reasons and they "shouldn't" feel that way because we did nothing wrong. We are literally hardwired to feel this distress. For many of us this is the most unbearable form of emotional distress.
The way we usually tend to deal with this distress is ... by getting into an infinite loop of retaliatory anger:
- I'm mad at you for something you did,
- you're mad at me for getting mad at you instead of just letting an honest mistake go,
- I'm mad at you for getting mad at me instead of apologizing for what you did,
- well you are sorry for it, but you're also mad at me for picking on your every little mistake,
- I'm mad at you for blaming me when this conflict could have been avoided if you just took responsibility from the start,
- you're mad at me for escalating the conflict when you've already apologized,
- I'm mad at you because actually, you're escalating the conflict when you blame me for getting justifiably angry over a real mistake,
- you're mad at me for browbeating you and excessively criticizing you,
- I'm mad at you for controlling me by demanding I shut up and put on a happy face no matter what you do or how I feel, and I feel stifled and guilted and like a bad person if I ever get angry,
- you're mad at me for DARVO because actually, I control you by demanding that you be perfect all the time or else!, and actually, you feel stifled and guilted and like a bad person if you ever make a mistake,
- I'm mad at you because you're manipulative and controlling and abusive
- you're mad at me because I'm manipulative and controlling and abusive
Not everyone says all of this out loud. This iterative anger loop often happens silently in each person's own head, while they are studiously "avoiding conflict". But "avoiding conflict" is a sham. Silent retaliation (in the form of storing up grudges against the other person and building up a narrative against them) is a powerful method of retaliation, just as much as exploding at the other person would be. The conflict is not avoided, it's just played out silently.
So let's get back to what you said:
> When I show that I'm upset, they react as if I'm attacking them. It genuinely seems to hurt them and it makes me feel like a cruel bully.
This sounds like you're deep in the infinite loop of anger and resentment, albeit silent or subdued. You feel oppressed and put-upon and stifled by them. They very likely feel oppressed and put-upon and stifled by you. Whether or not you're saying it out loud, both of you are storing up grudges against each other and building up narratives about each other.
You're making an effort to break out of the loop by being honest (not avoiding conflict) and using kind, co-operative language (not fueling conflict):
> I try to be careful to only talk about my own feelings ("when you did x, it made me feel y" ) rather than using aggressive language ("you always do x!")
This is good! But you follow that up with:
> but so far that hasn't helped much.
Which puts you right back inside the infinite loop. You're thinking, "But I'm trying so hard to do things right!! Why are they continuing the conflict? Can't they see how much effort I'm making to navigate honestly and gently through the conflict? Why can't they match my effort? No matter how hard I try, it's no use with these people. Nothing helps." That's storing up resentment and grudges. That's building up a narrative about the other person. That's retaliation just as real as if you exploded at them.
It requires a LOT of emotional work to tolerate people's negative feelings towards us without retaliating. It's the only way to break out of the loop. The good news is, you are already have the key insight that will help you:
> And sometimes, when I think about what's really motivating my anger, it's about controlling *them*. I want them to not be unhappy around me,
So when you say "but so far that hasn't helped much", do you recognize how it's about controlling *them*? Do you see how you don't want them to be unhappy (or hurt, or feel attacked) around you (or by you)?
I would encourage you to:
1. Continue to be honest and open about how you feel in the relationship (don't lie and say you're fine to avoid conflict),
2. Continue to use those kind and constructive communication techniques to talk through and resolve your mutual upsets, anger, disagreements, etc. (don't shut down communication and withdraw to avoid conflict),
3. And learn this new skill: tolerate people being angry with you or unhappy with you or hurt by you. Say to yourself, "They are very angry with me. They probably think I am a cruel bully." And breathe through this knowledge. People are allowed to feel anything they wish towards you. You cannot control their thoughts or their feelings. Yes, they are angry with you. Breathe. People's feelings belong only to themselves. When they are feeling hurt or angry, you don't have to walk around as if their feeling is on your head. You can feel or do whatever you like. You can sing, you can feel happy, you can look at the sky and feel calm, you can drink tea and feel warm, you can go dancing and have fun, you can hug your friends or your pets. Yes, you will likely also feel sad and upset that they're being so unfair... but your sad and upset feelings are your own. The other person doesn't control your feelings. You can self soothe and feel better, and that's not a betrayal of them (or yourself)! It's okay for you to feel better even if the other person is still stuck in their bad feelings.
You might ask, "But how does the issue they're causing get resolved if I just focus on myself?" The answer is right there in those three steps I listed above. Step 1 helps you trust yourself that you won't let yourself down, that you will have your own back. Step 1 means you won't just roll over and allow people to treat you badly. Sometimes it leads to Step 2 directly, where you discuss the issue together (or with a professional) and hopefully resolve it. If the other person becomes upset with you, take a little while to help yourself feel better and balanced within yourself (Step 3), and let them know you're willing to talk whenever they're ready (i.e. Step 2). The ball is now in their court. You go right back to Step 3, and carry on.
You might ask, "But what if they never start the conversation and I'm waiting forever?" Again, the answer is already up in those steps. Go to Step 1: after a day or so (maybe? depending on the relationship?) tell them honestly that you're wondering when they will start the conversation.
You might ask, "But what if they keep on being unfairly angry with me all the time?" Step 1 ill help you articulate that issue. Step 2 will help you talk through it. Step 3 will help you take care of yourself and make your own personal decisions about the relationship without being dragged down by feeling enmeshed with the other person.
Like I said at the start of this long comment, knowing that our loved ones are feeling negatively towards us is one of the most stressful emotional experiences for all human beings. And like I said a couple of paragraphs ago, it takes a great deal of emotional work to tolerate people's negative feelings towards us without retaliating in any way, including silent forms of retaliation. This is incredibly difficult work. None of us find it easy. None of us are born with this ability. And for most of us, it is the work of a lifetime to learn to do this well. So please be gentle with yourself as you go along.
posted by MiraK at 11:00 AM on May 9, 2022
People having negative feelings towards us is super stressful. It's completely human to feel distressed when a loved one feels hurt by us or is angry with us (or even just a random acquaintance!), doubly or triply or quadruply so when it's for "unfair" reasons and they "shouldn't" feel that way because we did nothing wrong. We are literally hardwired to feel this distress. For many of us this is the most unbearable form of emotional distress.
The way we usually tend to deal with this distress is ... by getting into an infinite loop of retaliatory anger:
- I'm mad at you for something you did,
- you're mad at me for getting mad at you instead of just letting an honest mistake go,
- I'm mad at you for getting mad at me instead of apologizing for what you did,
- well you are sorry for it, but you're also mad at me for picking on your every little mistake,
- I'm mad at you for blaming me when this conflict could have been avoided if you just took responsibility from the start,
- you're mad at me for escalating the conflict when you've already apologized,
- I'm mad at you because actually, you're escalating the conflict when you blame me for getting justifiably angry over a real mistake,
- you're mad at me for browbeating you and excessively criticizing you,
- I'm mad at you for controlling me by demanding I shut up and put on a happy face no matter what you do or how I feel, and I feel stifled and guilted and like a bad person if I ever get angry,
- you're mad at me for DARVO because actually, I control you by demanding that you be perfect all the time or else!, and actually, you feel stifled and guilted and like a bad person if you ever make a mistake,
- I'm mad at you because you're manipulative and controlling and abusive
- you're mad at me because I'm manipulative and controlling and abusive
Not everyone says all of this out loud. This iterative anger loop often happens silently in each person's own head, while they are studiously "avoiding conflict". But "avoiding conflict" is a sham. Silent retaliation (in the form of storing up grudges against the other person and building up a narrative against them) is a powerful method of retaliation, just as much as exploding at the other person would be. The conflict is not avoided, it's just played out silently.
So let's get back to what you said:
> When I show that I'm upset, they react as if I'm attacking them. It genuinely seems to hurt them and it makes me feel like a cruel bully.
This sounds like you're deep in the infinite loop of anger and resentment, albeit silent or subdued. You feel oppressed and put-upon and stifled by them. They very likely feel oppressed and put-upon and stifled by you. Whether or not you're saying it out loud, both of you are storing up grudges against each other and building up narratives about each other.
You're making an effort to break out of the loop by being honest (not avoiding conflict) and using kind, co-operative language (not fueling conflict):
> I try to be careful to only talk about my own feelings ("when you did x, it made me feel y" ) rather than using aggressive language ("you always do x!")
This is good! But you follow that up with:
> but so far that hasn't helped much.
Which puts you right back inside the infinite loop. You're thinking, "But I'm trying so hard to do things right!! Why are they continuing the conflict? Can't they see how much effort I'm making to navigate honestly and gently through the conflict? Why can't they match my effort? No matter how hard I try, it's no use with these people. Nothing helps." That's storing up resentment and grudges. That's building up a narrative about the other person. That's retaliation just as real as if you exploded at them.
It requires a LOT of emotional work to tolerate people's negative feelings towards us without retaliating. It's the only way to break out of the loop. The good news is, you are already have the key insight that will help you:
> And sometimes, when I think about what's really motivating my anger, it's about controlling *them*. I want them to not be unhappy around me,
So when you say "but so far that hasn't helped much", do you recognize how it's about controlling *them*? Do you see how you don't want them to be unhappy (or hurt, or feel attacked) around you (or by you)?
I would encourage you to:
1. Continue to be honest and open about how you feel in the relationship (don't lie and say you're fine to avoid conflict),
2. Continue to use those kind and constructive communication techniques to talk through and resolve your mutual upsets, anger, disagreements, etc. (don't shut down communication and withdraw to avoid conflict),
3. And learn this new skill: tolerate people being angry with you or unhappy with you or hurt by you. Say to yourself, "They are very angry with me. They probably think I am a cruel bully." And breathe through this knowledge. People are allowed to feel anything they wish towards you. You cannot control their thoughts or their feelings. Yes, they are angry with you. Breathe. People's feelings belong only to themselves. When they are feeling hurt or angry, you don't have to walk around as if their feeling is on your head. You can feel or do whatever you like. You can sing, you can feel happy, you can look at the sky and feel calm, you can drink tea and feel warm, you can go dancing and have fun, you can hug your friends or your pets. Yes, you will likely also feel sad and upset that they're being so unfair... but your sad and upset feelings are your own. The other person doesn't control your feelings. You can self soothe and feel better, and that's not a betrayal of them (or yourself)! It's okay for you to feel better even if the other person is still stuck in their bad feelings.
You might ask, "But how does the issue they're causing get resolved if I just focus on myself?" The answer is right there in those three steps I listed above. Step 1 helps you trust yourself that you won't let yourself down, that you will have your own back. Step 1 means you won't just roll over and allow people to treat you badly. Sometimes it leads to Step 2 directly, where you discuss the issue together (or with a professional) and hopefully resolve it. If the other person becomes upset with you, take a little while to help yourself feel better and balanced within yourself (Step 3), and let them know you're willing to talk whenever they're ready (i.e. Step 2). The ball is now in their court. You go right back to Step 3, and carry on.
You might ask, "But what if they never start the conversation and I'm waiting forever?" Again, the answer is already up in those steps. Go to Step 1: after a day or so (maybe? depending on the relationship?) tell them honestly that you're wondering when they will start the conversation.
You might ask, "But what if they keep on being unfairly angry with me all the time?" Step 1 ill help you articulate that issue. Step 2 will help you talk through it. Step 3 will help you take care of yourself and make your own personal decisions about the relationship without being dragged down by feeling enmeshed with the other person.
Like I said at the start of this long comment, knowing that our loved ones are feeling negatively towards us is one of the most stressful emotional experiences for all human beings. And like I said a couple of paragraphs ago, it takes a great deal of emotional work to tolerate people's negative feelings towards us without retaliating in any way, including silent forms of retaliation. This is incredibly difficult work. None of us find it easy. None of us are born with this ability. And for most of us, it is the work of a lifetime to learn to do this well. So please be gentle with yourself as you go along.
posted by MiraK at 11:00 AM on May 9, 2022
Questions you should think through yourself, maybe journal through:
Why am I having to do this much emotional negotiation with my family? What are the nature of their violations? Are these systemic family issues in which I am The X One and they are uncomfortable with any divergence from my role and this may require a different overall strategy? Have they been abusively boundary-crossing up until now and I am having to reset? Am I setting boundaries AT them instead of interacting with them as a person who is being mindful of my own boundaries but also their right to exist and have their own choices?
And at the end of the day: are you choosing your battles thoughtfully and strategically?
Just coming from your framework, how often are you saying "when you did x, it made me feel y" to people, and what are the stakes of x? Is it the right time to be working through that particular issue? Do you think bringing it up is going to change anything? I know if you give examples here people are going to try to litigate those examples, but you know that phrase is for big issues, right?
I say that because people have personalities that may not always be to your taste and might even make you feel bad, but it's kind of up to you to work through the bad feeling first and see if you can attain some perspective. Like, it may be frustrating and feel dismissive that your mom doesn't really understand what your job is and tends to simplify it in a way that would be a real burn if it was coming from someone who did understand the job, but you know she just doesn't get it and you're going to just extend some credit that she's likely not saying you can't code. Otherwise, those are the moments where you ultimately decide to interject and say, "Mom, can you at least call me a programmer instead of a cashier?"
But if it's a family Thing where you worked in a grocery store in high school and everybody still acts like that's what you do even though you're a software developer - probably a little bit because they all have some investment in you still being that age and in part because it's become family lore to treat you that way - that's where you call it out and that's where you try to speak from a kind and trying-to-reach-an-understanding but still firm way to set a boundary that you find that game disrespectful and are going to stop engaging on the subject (that's the boundary, the boundary isn't "you all stop doing the thing I don't like") if they can't update their internal notes.
Is it possible you're trying to explain your feelings and get them validated and understood and respected when you use that framework, rather than just clearly defining a boundary in a case when boundaries are needed? I have seen this in people in toxic family environments where their goal is "if you could just understand how bad I feel, you would treat me as if I have value" but if people are invested in treating you as if you do not have value for their own gain/survival, that will not fix them. It's not a misunderstanding you can rectify. It's on purpose.
Your goal can't be someone else's change. It's not your right to dictate someone else's behavior, and it's also not your responsibility, so that is a burden you can put down because it is impossibly heavy. I also don't think it's fair to make someone else's every interaction with you a family therapy session, because they haven't come prepared and haven't even signed up. If you want to effect a change in the relationship, you will need to regard it as a supertanker in terms of changing its route - it's a slow task.
It might be worth literally doing some homework around what it is you'd like to happen, and work through in advance what a (reasonably) objective and attainable fair ask would be. There's stuff in this world where you don't actually have to care that they understand how you feel, you can just tell your sister you aren't interested in her racist comments and that if she thinks you share her sentiments, you do not. You can just tell everyone you don't want to discuss your dating life/finances/medical issues, shrug. If someone tries to push your buttons that used to be oh so pushable, just say no thank you, how about that local weather sports? They can figure out for themselves how you feel just by you sidestepping or boundary-enforcing, and whether or not they care is their problem.
Let them have their problems.
You've replaced one kind of conflict-avoidance with another. What it feels like to be conflict-neutral is a LOT more like unconditional acceptance than a fight. If you live by the framework that people are who they are and you can only reach as far as your own arm's length - whether that's offering a hand in compromise or holding it up so they can talk to it - to control your situation.
You should maybe take some steps back and stop with the heavy corrections and instead form a strategy and a priority list. You get to center yourself there: simply don't attend events you know the other attendees Don't Do Well, plan ways to remove yourself or change the subject when there are things you are choosing not to engage with. Learn to simply say "I don't agree with that" or "Please don't talk to me like that" without needing them to validate that you are right AND without trying to manipulate their emotions. Choose when to take them aside to address really big issues with the tack of "I'm just trying to get you to understand me on this, and I'm trying to understand you."
If there are people in your life who might actually hurt you if you anger them, get away from those people. Stop trying to fix that. But all the rest, you will survive their displeasure. You may even come to find that when people are allowed to simply take your displeasure away and process it in their own way, they DO come to understand you or at least decide to respect your perspective, but also they might just be assholes or they may be acting through their own trauma responses or they may be dealing with some other harm or obstacle that you don't know about and it's not your business.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:45 AM on May 9, 2022
Why am I having to do this much emotional negotiation with my family? What are the nature of their violations? Are these systemic family issues in which I am The X One and they are uncomfortable with any divergence from my role and this may require a different overall strategy? Have they been abusively boundary-crossing up until now and I am having to reset? Am I setting boundaries AT them instead of interacting with them as a person who is being mindful of my own boundaries but also their right to exist and have their own choices?
And at the end of the day: are you choosing your battles thoughtfully and strategically?
Just coming from your framework, how often are you saying "when you did x, it made me feel y" to people, and what are the stakes of x? Is it the right time to be working through that particular issue? Do you think bringing it up is going to change anything? I know if you give examples here people are going to try to litigate those examples, but you know that phrase is for big issues, right?
I say that because people have personalities that may not always be to your taste and might even make you feel bad, but it's kind of up to you to work through the bad feeling first and see if you can attain some perspective. Like, it may be frustrating and feel dismissive that your mom doesn't really understand what your job is and tends to simplify it in a way that would be a real burn if it was coming from someone who did understand the job, but you know she just doesn't get it and you're going to just extend some credit that she's likely not saying you can't code. Otherwise, those are the moments where you ultimately decide to interject and say, "Mom, can you at least call me a programmer instead of a cashier?"
But if it's a family Thing where you worked in a grocery store in high school and everybody still acts like that's what you do even though you're a software developer - probably a little bit because they all have some investment in you still being that age and in part because it's become family lore to treat you that way - that's where you call it out and that's where you try to speak from a kind and trying-to-reach-an-understanding but still firm way to set a boundary that you find that game disrespectful and are going to stop engaging on the subject (that's the boundary, the boundary isn't "you all stop doing the thing I don't like") if they can't update their internal notes.
Is it possible you're trying to explain your feelings and get them validated and understood and respected when you use that framework, rather than just clearly defining a boundary in a case when boundaries are needed? I have seen this in people in toxic family environments where their goal is "if you could just understand how bad I feel, you would treat me as if I have value" but if people are invested in treating you as if you do not have value for their own gain/survival, that will not fix them. It's not a misunderstanding you can rectify. It's on purpose.
Your goal can't be someone else's change. It's not your right to dictate someone else's behavior, and it's also not your responsibility, so that is a burden you can put down because it is impossibly heavy. I also don't think it's fair to make someone else's every interaction with you a family therapy session, because they haven't come prepared and haven't even signed up. If you want to effect a change in the relationship, you will need to regard it as a supertanker in terms of changing its route - it's a slow task.
It might be worth literally doing some homework around what it is you'd like to happen, and work through in advance what a (reasonably) objective and attainable fair ask would be. There's stuff in this world where you don't actually have to care that they understand how you feel, you can just tell your sister you aren't interested in her racist comments and that if she thinks you share her sentiments, you do not. You can just tell everyone you don't want to discuss your dating life/finances/medical issues, shrug. If someone tries to push your buttons that used to be oh so pushable, just say no thank you, how about that local weather sports? They can figure out for themselves how you feel just by you sidestepping or boundary-enforcing, and whether or not they care is their problem.
Let them have their problems.
You've replaced one kind of conflict-avoidance with another. What it feels like to be conflict-neutral is a LOT more like unconditional acceptance than a fight. If you live by the framework that people are who they are and you can only reach as far as your own arm's length - whether that's offering a hand in compromise or holding it up so they can talk to it - to control your situation.
You should maybe take some steps back and stop with the heavy corrections and instead form a strategy and a priority list. You get to center yourself there: simply don't attend events you know the other attendees Don't Do Well, plan ways to remove yourself or change the subject when there are things you are choosing not to engage with. Learn to simply say "I don't agree with that" or "Please don't talk to me like that" without needing them to validate that you are right AND without trying to manipulate their emotions. Choose when to take them aside to address really big issues with the tack of "I'm just trying to get you to understand me on this, and I'm trying to understand you."
If there are people in your life who might actually hurt you if you anger them, get away from those people. Stop trying to fix that. But all the rest, you will survive their displeasure. You may even come to find that when people are allowed to simply take your displeasure away and process it in their own way, they DO come to understand you or at least decide to respect your perspective, but also they might just be assholes or they may be acting through their own trauma responses or they may be dealing with some other harm or obstacle that you don't know about and it's not your business.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:45 AM on May 9, 2022
It’s time to fully detach here. Completely let go of responsibility for and fear of others’ reactions to you.
Try to say what you have to say in as kind and honest language as possible.
Or, maybe it doesn’t need to be said? (Are you trying to get some deep validation from people not fully equipped to give it?)
Then once it’s released it’s theirs to do with as they wish; react poorly, react well, understand you, or not.
There’s no need even to change how they communicate. “When you X I feel Y” is kind of passé; presume and fully accept that you know them well enough by now, they will do X; so accept that they will and change your behavior accordingly. Knowing that they will do X, what is your first step? (You can also spend some time debugging why X is so triggering for you.)
The name of the game is to be who you are, kindly, and remove your own emotional buttons and neediness one by one. It truly is the long game. Sounds like these people love you they just are what they are.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:52 PM on May 9, 2022
Try to say what you have to say in as kind and honest language as possible.
Or, maybe it doesn’t need to be said? (Are you trying to get some deep validation from people not fully equipped to give it?)
Then once it’s released it’s theirs to do with as they wish; react poorly, react well, understand you, or not.
There’s no need even to change how they communicate. “When you X I feel Y” is kind of passé; presume and fully accept that you know them well enough by now, they will do X; so accept that they will and change your behavior accordingly. Knowing that they will do X, what is your first step? (You can also spend some time debugging why X is so triggering for you.)
The name of the game is to be who you are, kindly, and remove your own emotional buttons and neediness one by one. It truly is the long game. Sounds like these people love you they just are what they are.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:52 PM on May 9, 2022
both of you are storing up grudges against each other and building up narratives about each other.
Oh hells yeah. When I think about the amount of time I've wasted on having flaming rows with the imaginary versions of other people I keep inside my own head... oy.
It can take literally years to forgive other people for having said and done things that in fact only my own models of them ever said or did.
posted by flabdablet at 7:16 PM on May 9, 2022
Oh hells yeah. When I think about the amount of time I've wasted on having flaming rows with the imaginary versions of other people I keep inside my own head... oy.
It can take literally years to forgive other people for having said and done things that in fact only my own models of them ever said or did.
posted by flabdablet at 7:16 PM on May 9, 2022
This seems like a time where journaling would really help.
You’re making a change that will take a long time and simultaneously create a lot of emotional tumult in your closest relationships. Getting your thoughts written down should help you clarify things day to day, and being able to track your progress over months will let you know that you are making progress.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:06 AM on May 10, 2022
You’re making a change that will take a long time and simultaneously create a lot of emotional tumult in your closest relationships. Getting your thoughts written down should help you clarify things day to day, and being able to track your progress over months will let you know that you are making progress.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:06 AM on May 10, 2022
. This iterative anger loop often happens silently in each person's own head, while they are studiously "avoiding conflict". But "avoiding conflict" is a sham. Silent retaliation (in the form of storing up grudges against the other person and building up a narrative against them) is a powerful method of retaliation, just as much as exploding at the other person would be. The conflict is not avoided, it's just played out silently.
Once again, so much appreciation for every single answer here, but the above insight really struck home. I've always prided myself on being a person who doesn't hold grudges, but it turns out that I'm a champion grudge holder, I just nurse them and feed them in privacy. Which is not a great idea.
Also the statements that this is going to be a long process.
I'm stepping up my search for a new therapist as I think that will help me a lot, if I can find the right person.
Thanks again! <3
posted by Zumbador at 9:41 PM on May 15, 2022
Once again, so much appreciation for every single answer here, but the above insight really struck home. I've always prided myself on being a person who doesn't hold grudges, but it turns out that I'm a champion grudge holder, I just nurse them and feed them in privacy. Which is not a great idea.
Also the statements that this is going to be a long process.
I'm stepping up my search for a new therapist as I think that will help me a lot, if I can find the right person.
Thanks again! <3
posted by Zumbador at 9:41 PM on May 15, 2022
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Try claiming a bit more agency with "when you did x, I felt y" instead of "... it made me feel y". The difference is subtle, but it's the difference between an accusatory form of words (you did a thing to me) and informational reportage (this was an effect of a thing you did).
If you also pay close attention to the tone in which you deliver those remarks and do your best to sound matter-of-fact instead of accusatory, then this might be enough to slip in around their O Noes I Am Under Attack defensive screen.
It probably won't be enough because egos gonna ego and fragility gonna fragile, but if you're conscientious about those two things then you can at least be justifiably confident that by any reasonable, objective standard you're not bullying anybody.
When I show that I'm upset, they react as if I'm attacking them.
Yep. DARVO is an insidious and very sticky pattern, and once it becomes the default mode of interaction within any given group it's just really hard for any one participant to lead an extrication attempt.
It genuinely seems to hurt them
That's a feature, not a bug. There should be consequences for inconsiderate emotional carelessness. If there isn't, what's the motivation to get more considerate?
and it makes me feel like a cruel bully.
That's your feeling to reflect upon, but it's not necessarily the case that feeling like a cruel bully can only ever flow from being cruel or bullying or both. One of the most insidious things about DARVO is that it's disturbingly easy to internalize.
Also, intent matters. I know it's super fashionable around these parts to say that it doesn't and that outcomes are the only thing worth considering, but I strongly disagree. If you go into a confrontation motivated solely by self defence and with no desire to inflict cruelty either for its own sake or as some misguided attempt at payback, then you're much more likely to be able to extract something healthy from subsequent reflection even if your adversary does, in fact, experience what you say as cruel.
Most of the skill in conducting this kind of conversation productively lies in (a) picking the best time to start one and (b) learning to stop talking and revert to attentive, reflective listening the instant the thing starts veering off into the weeds.
posted by flabdablet at 11:26 PM on May 8, 2022