Quitting academia after a decade of mediocre PhD and post-docs
March 29, 2022 11:50 PM
Looking for stories of people who quit academia and have a decent career elsewhere after mediocre PhD and post-doctoral fellowships.
I have a PhD in psychology/ cognitive neuroscience and on my second post-doctoral fellowships. I am not doing very well in my career. I have a few publications, way below what people would expect based on the number of years I have been around in the field. I think getting the much coveted tenure-track position is nearly impossible or is an extremely difficult uphill climb which I just don't have the motivation for.
However, I am not sure what skills I have to offer outside of academia. I am approaching 40, I feel that I know a little about many things but I don't consider myself an expert in any single thing, except for theoretical knowledge about my PhD research topic, which is not very transferrable.
I have little confidence in my technical/ data analysis skills. I have some programming skills, some signal processing knowledge, some statistics skills, all of which I learned very haphazardly (just enough to solve the problems I needed to solve at work). I could learn things quickly if I am given a clear problem to solve but I feel I lack the foundation to thoroughly understand any of these technical areas. My writing skills are okay if I know exactly what I need/ want to write about. I have some problems with anxiety and I feel easily overwhelmed when I have to tackle a major writing task where I have to explore a new topic by myself without externally imposed boundary.
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
I have a PhD in psychology/ cognitive neuroscience and on my second post-doctoral fellowships. I am not doing very well in my career. I have a few publications, way below what people would expect based on the number of years I have been around in the field. I think getting the much coveted tenure-track position is nearly impossible or is an extremely difficult uphill climb which I just don't have the motivation for.
However, I am not sure what skills I have to offer outside of academia. I am approaching 40, I feel that I know a little about many things but I don't consider myself an expert in any single thing, except for theoretical knowledge about my PhD research topic, which is not very transferrable.
I have little confidence in my technical/ data analysis skills. I have some programming skills, some signal processing knowledge, some statistics skills, all of which I learned very haphazardly (just enough to solve the problems I needed to solve at work). I could learn things quickly if I am given a clear problem to solve but I feel I lack the foundation to thoroughly understand any of these technical areas. My writing skills are okay if I know exactly what I need/ want to write about. I have some problems with anxiety and I feel easily overwhelmed when I have to tackle a major writing task where I have to explore a new topic by myself without externally imposed boundary.
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
*waves* Hello! Cognitive psychologist turned biostatistician here. I work at a medical school, in a research area not very close to what I studied in graduate school, but still adjacent to psychology.
1. Yep, this sounds familiar. I got pretty disillusioned late in my PhD process. It felt terrible! I was sad a lot! I recommend So What Are You Going To Do With That? by Basalla and Debelius for stories of people who were in this mire but climbed out of it into happier lives, as well as practical advice about how to do that thing.
2. The preparation is not a one-and-done thing, is what strikes me from this mid-career vantage point. While in PhD school I tried a bunch of stuff. I thought about getting an MS in statistics (I was interested in this career path as early as my third year) but it turned out too be too much work to do alongside the PhD. I took a couple of odd jobs for the department to see what piqued my interest (some professional development stuff for grad students, some alumni-tracking work that did double duty as development work for them and career exploration for me). I took more methods classes than I needed to, and took every reasonable opportunity that the work itself presented to dabble in a new programming language. But it didn't stop once I graduated. At every job, I've tried to pick one transferable technical skill I could justify teaching myself while on the clock. (In data work this is very very easy to do: I taught myself SQL, SAS, SAS Macro, R, and the command line while getting money for it... and nobody complained, because an employee who wants to learn new tricks is a great employee.) And I did eventually get that MS.
3. Having strong statistics skills for a psychologist was enough to land me my first statistician job, but not enough to make the stats program a breeze (it super wasn't). However, it turns out that with my PhD I also had strong scientific reasoning and writing skills compared to the crop of mostly math majors I was studying with, and later in my stats program that started to shine through. I've been surfing that line of "pretty good at X for a Y" for most of my career, I'd say. It's a bit of a sideways answer to your question.
4. It turned out pretty well. I will say that past the mid-career point it's not obvious to me what a staff scientist role looks like, so it's possible that I'll find I need to stretch my wings elsewhere eventually. But my goal in the depths of my despair was "get a job doing something I enjoy that lets me live where I want to live at a good quality of life" and I have met that in spades. And it turns out that research is much more fun for me when I'm doing it as part of a team.
posted by eirias at 4:21 AM on March 30, 2022
1. Yep, this sounds familiar. I got pretty disillusioned late in my PhD process. It felt terrible! I was sad a lot! I recommend So What Are You Going To Do With That? by Basalla and Debelius for stories of people who were in this mire but climbed out of it into happier lives, as well as practical advice about how to do that thing.
2. The preparation is not a one-and-done thing, is what strikes me from this mid-career vantage point. While in PhD school I tried a bunch of stuff. I thought about getting an MS in statistics (I was interested in this career path as early as my third year) but it turned out too be too much work to do alongside the PhD. I took a couple of odd jobs for the department to see what piqued my interest (some professional development stuff for grad students, some alumni-tracking work that did double duty as development work for them and career exploration for me). I took more methods classes than I needed to, and took every reasonable opportunity that the work itself presented to dabble in a new programming language. But it didn't stop once I graduated. At every job, I've tried to pick one transferable technical skill I could justify teaching myself while on the clock. (In data work this is very very easy to do: I taught myself SQL, SAS, SAS Macro, R, and the command line while getting money for it... and nobody complained, because an employee who wants to learn new tricks is a great employee.) And I did eventually get that MS.
3. Having strong statistics skills for a psychologist was enough to land me my first statistician job, but not enough to make the stats program a breeze (it super wasn't). However, it turns out that with my PhD I also had strong scientific reasoning and writing skills compared to the crop of mostly math majors I was studying with, and later in my stats program that started to shine through. I've been surfing that line of "pretty good at X for a Y" for most of my career, I'd say. It's a bit of a sideways answer to your question.
4. It turned out pretty well. I will say that past the mid-career point it's not obvious to me what a staff scientist role looks like, so it's possible that I'll find I need to stretch my wings elsewhere eventually. But my goal in the depths of my despair was "get a job doing something I enjoy that lets me live where I want to live at a good quality of life" and I have met that in spades. And it turns out that research is much more fun for me when I'm doing it as part of a team.
posted by eirias at 4:21 AM on March 30, 2022
I completed a PhD in Art History at the University of Manchester in 2008. I never used it.
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
Hell yes. I realized half way through the program that it wasn't going to go anywhere, and if not for the extremely negative reaction of my wife at the mention of quitting, I would have packed it in without finishing.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
I'm now a dealer in rare books with a sideline as a bookbinder. My favorite thing during my time in Manchester was going to book auctions, so that was a pretty big hint right there. Necessary skills include an abiding interest in books, the ability to stay motivated with nobody telling you what to do and most people not caring, and in the case of bookbinding, patience and meticulousness to the point of neurosis (but in a good way).
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
Great. Looking at academia from the outside in 2022, I'm very happy that I'm not involved in it, as it seems profoundly broken to me, for reasons including excess cost, indifferent students, bureaucracy, and eroding intellectual freedom. I don't make much money but honestly probably more than I would have in academia, and I do it on my own terms.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 4:38 AM on March 30, 2022
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
Hell yes. I realized half way through the program that it wasn't going to go anywhere, and if not for the extremely negative reaction of my wife at the mention of quitting, I would have packed it in without finishing.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
I'm now a dealer in rare books with a sideline as a bookbinder. My favorite thing during my time in Manchester was going to book auctions, so that was a pretty big hint right there. Necessary skills include an abiding interest in books, the ability to stay motivated with nobody telling you what to do and most people not caring, and in the case of bookbinding, patience and meticulousness to the point of neurosis (but in a good way).
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
Great. Looking at academia from the outside in 2022, I'm very happy that I'm not involved in it, as it seems profoundly broken to me, for reasons including excess cost, indifferent students, bureaucracy, and eroding intellectual freedom. I don't make much money but honestly probably more than I would have in academia, and I do it on my own terms.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 4:38 AM on March 30, 2022
1. As far as I can tell, basically everyone?
2. I didn't really prepare. I went to a few "how to get a job outside of academia" type seminars and met with a career coach who was employed by the university where I was a postdoc. Lots of them are terrible, but he was excellent. He's now in private practice and I would enthusiastically send you his contact info if you are interested and memail me. The advice I give everyone based on my experience is that you should not wait for the perfect time to leave academia. Look for jobs continuously and apply to any that look interesting. Don't wait because the right job might not appear again for a long time. You don't owe your advisor anything. You don't need to finish that last paper. Your new employer doesn't care about that last paper.
3. Technical skills that I thought were a dime a dozen were desperately needed by my employer. I absolutely didn't realize how employable I was until I left academia.
4. Great. No regrets. I now have a job that's interesting enough, uses my training, involves nice smart coworkers, and barely takes 40 hours a week. I work less, and make more money and impact than I did in academia. Most importantly, I have like 1/10th the stress, virtually never think about my job after 5 pm, and have tons of time for family, hobbies, and volunteer work.
Academia is designed to make you feel stressed and inadequate. You have useful skills and you can totally do this!
posted by juliapangolin at 5:19 AM on March 30, 2022
2. I didn't really prepare. I went to a few "how to get a job outside of academia" type seminars and met with a career coach who was employed by the university where I was a postdoc. Lots of them are terrible, but he was excellent. He's now in private practice and I would enthusiastically send you his contact info if you are interested and memail me. The advice I give everyone based on my experience is that you should not wait for the perfect time to leave academia. Look for jobs continuously and apply to any that look interesting. Don't wait because the right job might not appear again for a long time. You don't owe your advisor anything. You don't need to finish that last paper. Your new employer doesn't care about that last paper.
3. Technical skills that I thought were a dime a dozen were desperately needed by my employer. I absolutely didn't realize how employable I was until I left academia.
4. Great. No regrets. I now have a job that's interesting enough, uses my training, involves nice smart coworkers, and barely takes 40 hours a week. I work less, and make more money and impact than I did in academia. Most importantly, I have like 1/10th the stress, virtually never think about my job after 5 pm, and have tons of time for family, hobbies, and volunteer work.
Academia is designed to make you feel stressed and inadequate. You have useful skills and you can totally do this!
posted by juliapangolin at 5:19 AM on March 30, 2022
Yes, we are legion. I am 20 years out of getting a PhD in a scientific field with a weak publication record and one unproductive postdoc. In my case, I spent the next several years in adjunct nation while my kids were very young. When my best-paying gig at a private undergrad university was coming to an end (I had been an instructor for a few years, was never going to be hired tenure-track, they discreetly told me to find something else to do) I found a random job listing to do training and outreach regarding internally-developed bioinformatics tools to scientists working at a major pharma company--a great fit for both my science background (which had significant computational aspects, though not bioinformatics per se) and my teaching skills. I've been with the same company since, ca. 15 years, with different roles in scientific IT. Generally speaking I translate science to the tech people and technology to the science people. It's great; I work on interesting problems with smart people; I get to support great science but don't have to do it myself, thank god; and my company makes stuff that helps people. Never would have imagined that this niche exists but I'm happy in it.
What I've observed is that there are many, many professional roles that benefit from having deep subject matter expertise, even if you're not actively doing (subject matter) directly. It may take a while for you to figure out where your expertise is really going to contribute, but I'm sure it's out there. I would suggest thinking about your network of professional contacts from grad school and beyond, look at who's no longer in academia, and start shaking the tree to talk about what they're doing now and what they see of the world from their vantage point. It's really easy to get tunnel vision in academia, but the world is a whole lot bigger than that!
posted by Sublimity at 5:22 AM on March 30, 2022
What I've observed is that there are many, many professional roles that benefit from having deep subject matter expertise, even if you're not actively doing (subject matter) directly. It may take a while for you to figure out where your expertise is really going to contribute, but I'm sure it's out there. I would suggest thinking about your network of professional contacts from grad school and beyond, look at who's no longer in academia, and start shaking the tree to talk about what they're doing now and what they see of the world from their vantage point. It's really easy to get tunnel vision in academia, but the world is a whole lot bigger than that!
posted by Sublimity at 5:22 AM on March 30, 2022
Oh yes, I felt this way. I left academia almost 25 years ago after finishing a PhD, no postdoc. Mine was in a biology field and the specifics of what I did afterwards (in industry) won’t be relevant to you, but I am positive that there are fields and jobs where your knowledge and/or “transferable skills” will be useful. I agree with Sublimity’s suggestion to talk to others you know (or can find through friends-of-friends, alumni groups, or your school’s career office) who have left academia. It is easy to feel you are inadequate or a failure but you are NOT. As Sublimity said, there is a lot of tunnel vision within academia - talking to others outside will help you see the other options, and the knowledge and value you have.
I found it was easier once I decided that I was leaving - then I was looking through open doors at other options, rather than looking wistfully at the one within academia that seemed to small for me to get through.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 6:06 AM on March 30, 2022
I found it was easier once I decided that I was leaving - then I was looking through open doors at other options, rather than looking wistfully at the one within academia that seemed to small for me to get through.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 6:06 AM on March 30, 2022
Also, to answer your specific questions - for #4, I was so much happier not in academia. I got to help people without having to do experiments myself, I had a stable job, better hours, and a better salary, and the work was still challenging and rewarding without feeling so… Sisyphean. It turned out quite well for me in the end.
For #2, I mostly talked to other people looking or doing for jobs outside of academia, hence my recommendation above. A couple of professors ran a lunch series where they brought in people doing non-academic jobs (which certainly happened but was not super common at the time in my field) that was helpful, and there was a postdoc down the hall who was also looking for non-academic jobs who was a few months ahead of me in the process. I got a lot of tips and info from her - including, if I remember correctly, a lead on the job I eventually took.
For #3, the relevant skills included my technical knowledge, but also my ability to think/learn, and to explain things to other people. Although I’m not sure how relevant it was in the end, I ended up submitting an SOP I’d written up for lab as part of my job application, to show I understood processes and could write them down.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 6:34 AM on March 30, 2022
For #2, I mostly talked to other people looking or doing for jobs outside of academia, hence my recommendation above. A couple of professors ran a lunch series where they brought in people doing non-academic jobs (which certainly happened but was not super common at the time in my field) that was helpful, and there was a postdoc down the hall who was also looking for non-academic jobs who was a few months ahead of me in the process. I got a lot of tips and info from her - including, if I remember correctly, a lead on the job I eventually took.
For #3, the relevant skills included my technical knowledge, but also my ability to think/learn, and to explain things to other people. Although I’m not sure how relevant it was in the end, I ended up submitting an SOP I’d written up for lab as part of my job application, to show I understood processes and could write them down.
posted by 2 cats in the yard at 6:34 AM on March 30, 2022
Technical skills that I thought were a dime a dozen were desperately needed by my employer. I absolutely didn't realize how employable I was until I left academia.
This. Academia can make people feel small and inadequate, and feel like they don't have options. The opposite is true -- anyone who can succeed in grad school or as a professor/adjunct/researcher obviously has adaptability, smarts, and technical knowledge.
Personally I left before getting my PhD, and in a different field, so I'm not sure the specifics are totally relevant to your situation. But I will note that more than a decade after leaving, I earn more than I would as a mid-level professor at a lower- to mid-ranked school, though less than I might at a super elite place. My quality of life is way better, and I haven't had to move around to follow my work -- I can move where I want and the work will follow. Unlike when I was in grad school, no one ever tries to make me or others feel bad or does petty bullying; I also don't have any gross colleagues who are sleeping with students any more. (I read "campus novels" for fun, but also to remind myself of the things I don't miss.)
More recently, several people I know well left professorial jobs during the pandemic to work in state and federal government -- their situation is that pay was about the same, benefits are better, and quality of life and happiness are far improved (including not being forced to teach in person during a pandemic). That's a YMMV situation, obviously, but the point is that people can make these sideways moves and end up happy and reasonably fulfilled.
Lastly, there is such a broad phenomenon of people leaving academia that there are now a bunch of people who have set up shop as consultants/career coaches specifically for people in your situation. I am sure they vary widely in quality, but someone I know worked with one last year and found it extremely helpful in navigating that transition.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:50 AM on March 30, 2022
This. Academia can make people feel small and inadequate, and feel like they don't have options. The opposite is true -- anyone who can succeed in grad school or as a professor/adjunct/researcher obviously has adaptability, smarts, and technical knowledge.
Personally I left before getting my PhD, and in a different field, so I'm not sure the specifics are totally relevant to your situation. But I will note that more than a decade after leaving, I earn more than I would as a mid-level professor at a lower- to mid-ranked school, though less than I might at a super elite place. My quality of life is way better, and I haven't had to move around to follow my work -- I can move where I want and the work will follow. Unlike when I was in grad school, no one ever tries to make me or others feel bad or does petty bullying; I also don't have any gross colleagues who are sleeping with students any more. (I read "campus novels" for fun, but also to remind myself of the things I don't miss.)
More recently, several people I know well left professorial jobs during the pandemic to work in state and federal government -- their situation is that pay was about the same, benefits are better, and quality of life and happiness are far improved (including not being forced to teach in person during a pandemic). That's a YMMV situation, obviously, but the point is that people can make these sideways moves and end up happy and reasonably fulfilled.
Lastly, there is such a broad phenomenon of people leaving academia that there are now a bunch of people who have set up shop as consultants/career coaches specifically for people in your situation. I am sure they vary widely in quality, but someone I know worked with one last year and found it extremely helpful in navigating that transition.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:50 AM on March 30, 2022
I have a PhD in psychology/ cognitive neuroscience
One side question in particular is whether you finished your PhD at an APA-accredited institution (or whatever the clinical accreditation is where you are),
I read this as the OP having done a Research/Experimental Ph.D. in Psychology, not a Clinical Psychology Ph.D., in which case there's basically no pathyway to move to Clinical work (other than starting over and getting a Clinical masters or doctorate).
posted by soylent00FF00 at 7:50 AM on March 30, 2022
One side question in particular is whether you finished your PhD at an APA-accredited institution (or whatever the clinical accreditation is where you are),
I read this as the OP having done a Research/Experimental Ph.D. in Psychology, not a Clinical Psychology Ph.D., in which case there's basically no pathyway to move to Clinical work (other than starting over and getting a Clinical masters or doctorate).
posted by soylent00FF00 at 7:50 AM on March 30, 2022
In medical school faculties, the paragon is the “triple threat” namely a person who excels in research, teaching, and clinical skills. While in fact, hiring and tenure decisions are, unsurprisingly, made on the basis of how much money you can raise for the department; great teachers and clinicians are routinely left by the wayside. This is also true for non-clinical science departments in universities where I have been employed. Even though I was reasonably successful in my research, I certainly got more satisfaction from clinical work than the money chase.
I left academia 10 tears after my MD/PhD and went into practice. Interestingly, the skills that made my practice successful were not only clinical but business and administration. Many doctors are insecure about their abilities in these areas so, if you’re willing to do the job and sell your business plans, you can do well. Building a large group practice (where I was selling my admin skills, developing budgets, and actually teaching the partners about clinical practice and business), developing personal and business relationships, and, anticipating the shift out of hospitals, developing free-standing doctor-owned surgical/x-ray/ancillary centers (where I was again writing proposals and anticipated budgets in the form of business plans) ultimately came to be a large part of my effort and income. Perhaps most enjoyable was my support of and association with a local free clinic in which I worked 1 day a week for 20 years.
And, by leaving academia, I got to live on the beach, surf whenever I could, and teach my sons how to surf and love the ocean like I do. So, you perhaps already have a skill set - interpersonal skills, grant writing, managing people and budgets, and so on. Consider teaching, charities, or whatever. What do you like to do? What will get you out of bed each AM? Life is short - do what you love.
posted by sudogeek at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2022
I left academia 10 tears after my MD/PhD and went into practice. Interestingly, the skills that made my practice successful were not only clinical but business and administration. Many doctors are insecure about their abilities in these areas so, if you’re willing to do the job and sell your business plans, you can do well. Building a large group practice (where I was selling my admin skills, developing budgets, and actually teaching the partners about clinical practice and business), developing personal and business relationships, and, anticipating the shift out of hospitals, developing free-standing doctor-owned surgical/x-ray/ancillary centers (where I was again writing proposals and anticipated budgets in the form of business plans) ultimately came to be a large part of my effort and income. Perhaps most enjoyable was my support of and association with a local free clinic in which I worked 1 day a week for 20 years.
And, by leaving academia, I got to live on the beach, surf whenever I could, and teach my sons how to surf and love the ocean like I do. So, you perhaps already have a skill set - interpersonal skills, grant writing, managing people and budgets, and so on. Consider teaching, charities, or whatever. What do you like to do? What will get you out of bed each AM? Life is short - do what you love.
posted by sudogeek at 8:15 AM on March 30, 2022
Do you want to leave academia as in not work at a university or do you want to leave as in let go of the tenure track?
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
Almost everyone I know who did a PhD felt this way sometimes.
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
I completed a Ph.D. and a postdoc. I sort of quit; I have stayed at a university but I am not tenure track. I didn't prepare myself because my move wasn't super intentional--I was location bound immediately after my postdoc and then good stuff kept happening, career-wise. I teach occasionally but basically I am middle administration. There are pros and cons to this, like every job. One very large pro, in my opinion, is that I am not held to the "publish or perish" standard. I work hard and more than a strict 9-5, but for the most part, my free time is my own, and I do not have the relentless feeling of not doing enough. I've grown to like a work environment with more boundaries and clearer goals. Maybe I could have liked the ambiguity of hustling for the tenure track. Not sure.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
Interpersonal skills (being able to work with different types of people to accomplish various projects), quantitative/data skills, writing, professional judgement (what is confidential, what is a sensitive way to say these things, what should be said at the group meeting versus what should be said in private). My guess is you have more skills than you might think.
I don't really appreciate it when people say this to me, but now I'm repeating it to you...One thing about my position is that I'm doing something no one else really likes to do. I am not passionate about this topic either, but it's tolerable and I'm more than capable of doing it, so being able to do stuff others don't like to do can be valuable in terms of finding a job. For example things like navigating IRB (or whatever your research ethics/protection unit might be), grant writing, teaching support, assessment, student conduct/student affairs etc. There are lots of functions in academia where your skills, credentials, and experience would give you good knowledge and credibility but that do not require you to be tenure track.
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
My path has been a series of pleasant surprises. Never expected or planned to do what I'm doing, but generally I like it--I make ok money, my job is not overly stressful, I get to use my brain, and I feel like I'm doing something meaningful in terms of improving the place I am and in terms of impacting students. Doing something meaningful is important to me personally.
posted by kochenta at 2:01 PM on March 30, 2022
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
Almost everyone I know who did a PhD felt this way sometimes.
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
I completed a Ph.D. and a postdoc. I sort of quit; I have stayed at a university but I am not tenure track. I didn't prepare myself because my move wasn't super intentional--I was location bound immediately after my postdoc and then good stuff kept happening, career-wise. I teach occasionally but basically I am middle administration. There are pros and cons to this, like every job. One very large pro, in my opinion, is that I am not held to the "publish or perish" standard. I work hard and more than a strict 9-5, but for the most part, my free time is my own, and I do not have the relentless feeling of not doing enough. I've grown to like a work environment with more boundaries and clearer goals. Maybe I could have liked the ambiguity of hustling for the tenure track. Not sure.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
Interpersonal skills (being able to work with different types of people to accomplish various projects), quantitative/data skills, writing, professional judgement (what is confidential, what is a sensitive way to say these things, what should be said at the group meeting versus what should be said in private). My guess is you have more skills than you might think.
I don't really appreciate it when people say this to me, but now I'm repeating it to you...One thing about my position is that I'm doing something no one else really likes to do. I am not passionate about this topic either, but it's tolerable and I'm more than capable of doing it, so being able to do stuff others don't like to do can be valuable in terms of finding a job. For example things like navigating IRB (or whatever your research ethics/protection unit might be), grant writing, teaching support, assessment, student conduct/student affairs etc. There are lots of functions in academia where your skills, credentials, and experience would give you good knowledge and credibility but that do not require you to be tenure track.
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
My path has been a series of pleasant surprises. Never expected or planned to do what I'm doing, but generally I like it--I make ok money, my job is not overly stressful, I get to use my brain, and I feel like I'm doing something meaningful in terms of improving the place I am and in terms of impacting students. Doing something meaningful is important to me personally.
posted by kochenta at 2:01 PM on March 30, 2022
1) I excelled in most aspects of academia and have a long list of publications. Even with a strong CV and an amazing research team, the toxic institutional culture still made me feel overwhelmed, insecure, and anxious. Tenure track jobs were also non-existent, because I couldn't move due to family reasons.
2) So, after doing a postdoc in health sciences, I gtfo. I spent awhile languishing in my postdoc, doing the occasional job search and feeling a lot of existential angst about potentially stepping off the track. A lot of the research jobs I was looking at were short term/contract based, so I didn't seriously consider applying to any. An opportunity that interested me eventually came up through some academic service work I was doing, and I made the jump into a research- adjacent university administration position. I didn't really know what I was doing in terms of creating a non-academic CV or interviewing, but somehow got hired anyway.
3) In my position, interpersonal and professional judgement skills like kochenta noted above are key. Additionally, the ability to balance multiple priorities in a fast paced work setting. Reading quickly (but accurately) and applying critical thought to material are also important skills that I feel transferred well from academia. I do feel like I've abandoned a lot of hard-earned technical skills, mostly related to data analysis and academic writing. But in the end I'm okay with that, because...
4) I am so, so happy I left the academic track! I don't feel stressed or burned out anymore from juggling multiple large projects. The constant anxieties about performance, and implicit professional comparisons to others that seem to permeate most academic spaces are just... gone. I also no longer feel like I'm on a treadmill running hard and not going anywhere (except maybe to a different short-term research position). I work 9-5ish, and my evenings and weekends are my own. I also really appreciate being able to work closely with others as part of a team. Academia can be pretty isolating, even when you are working on projects with others (and I do feel like I was very lucky in this regard, and worked with amazing people). I don't make as much money as I probably should given my training and skillset, but I'm happy to make that tradeoff for a job that I find satisfying, minimally stressful, and allows for a good balance with everything else in my life. No regrets at all!
posted by DTMFA at 7:58 PM on March 30, 2022
2) So, after doing a postdoc in health sciences, I gtfo. I spent awhile languishing in my postdoc, doing the occasional job search and feeling a lot of existential angst about potentially stepping off the track. A lot of the research jobs I was looking at were short term/contract based, so I didn't seriously consider applying to any. An opportunity that interested me eventually came up through some academic service work I was doing, and I made the jump into a research- adjacent university administration position. I didn't really know what I was doing in terms of creating a non-academic CV or interviewing, but somehow got hired anyway.
3) In my position, interpersonal and professional judgement skills like kochenta noted above are key. Additionally, the ability to balance multiple priorities in a fast paced work setting. Reading quickly (but accurately) and applying critical thought to material are also important skills that I feel transferred well from academia. I do feel like I've abandoned a lot of hard-earned technical skills, mostly related to data analysis and academic writing. But in the end I'm okay with that, because...
4) I am so, so happy I left the academic track! I don't feel stressed or burned out anymore from juggling multiple large projects. The constant anxieties about performance, and implicit professional comparisons to others that seem to permeate most academic spaces are just... gone. I also no longer feel like I'm on a treadmill running hard and not going anywhere (except maybe to a different short-term research position). I work 9-5ish, and my evenings and weekends are my own. I also really appreciate being able to work closely with others as part of a team. Academia can be pretty isolating, even when you are working on projects with others (and I do feel like I was very lucky in this regard, and worked with amazing people). I don't make as much money as I probably should given my training and skillset, but I'm happy to make that tradeoff for a job that I find satisfying, minimally stressful, and allows for a good balance with everything else in my life. No regrets at all!
posted by DTMFA at 7:58 PM on March 30, 2022
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
All the time. Undegrad felt like a wonderful promise, graduate training never delivered. I realized--late--that there were just so many of us students that the message was lost. The hyperspecialization that I'd endured as an undergrad became the dominant theme of graduate work (I was in a basic biological science, and the solitary hours in a windowless lab pippetting microleters of indistinguishable clear liquids... I had many this can't be it moments). I felt like a tiny drop in an ocean, and I had no knowledge of how others were using the collective work in that ocean to, say, make policy, drive large-scale change, innovate, and so on. That feeling ground me down so much that by the time I got my masters I knew that my heart wasn't in it. Neverhtheless, I kept going and talking myself out of leaving for a long time.
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
I did nothing. I just left. I got a night job completely outside of my field doing something exciting that I'd wondered about for ages. I started that while I was still in academia, but eventually I disengaged from the lab and did the night gig full time. It was an exciting period. I'd always had a threadbare budget, and I thought that would have prepared me more, but in hindsight I could have and should have been wiser with my money. So, make a budget and be honest and clear with yourself about how much you have available and how much you're willing to scale back in service of the instability and flexibility of changing your career. I spent a year and a half, maybe two years, in this transition period. It was great fun, but it was mostly a step back for my career. It didn't do good things for my credit, finances, etc. But man will I be telling stories from those years for life.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
Ultimately I moved toward using my working hours--not necessarily my specific training--to move forward the goals of a niche nonprofit organization that was doing work I felt fully aligned with. I had no idea they needed someone with my skills--as a scientist in general, not specifically a scientist with the background I'd had--but I met my future boss at a social event and offhandedly said that I wished I could work for her. And she said, oh my god are you kidding, you can, of course you can! We worked together to develop a job description and hone in on how and where I could use my existing skills and develop new ones. So, to your question, the greatest skill I brought was extreme flexibility and creativity, willingness and interest in working for and being useful for a mission that I identified with, and an eagerness to jump into the work.
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
Well it's been about fifteen years and I'm now the most senior member of a department that I built up to more than 20 people who, like myself (and like you) didn't know they could use their training to work on the work that we do. Instead of being anchored to work in a single lab, I've moved from place to place to place where I want to live. I haven't made a mint, and for years I worked for incredibly little. But the last few years have made me feel like I've arrived at an income I can be proud of, with years of work under my belt that I feel viscerally proud of (and grateful for).
Is this the last stop? Honestly, I don't know. I see at least a few more years working on long-term projects I've started here, and then maybe I'll have the nerve to try to go back to academia. That somehow feels more fitting, coming into academia after a career's worth of experience rather than before it. I still shudder at the thought, though, so I'd say my exit has worked out as well as I could have expected.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 12:52 AM on March 31, 2022
All the time. Undegrad felt like a wonderful promise, graduate training never delivered. I realized--late--that there were just so many of us students that the message was lost. The hyperspecialization that I'd endured as an undergrad became the dominant theme of graduate work (I was in a basic biological science, and the solitary hours in a windowless lab pippetting microleters of indistinguishable clear liquids... I had many this can't be it moments). I felt like a tiny drop in an ocean, and I had no knowledge of how others were using the collective work in that ocean to, say, make policy, drive large-scale change, innovate, and so on. That feeling ground me down so much that by the time I got my masters I knew that my heart wasn't in it. Neverhtheless, I kept going and talking myself out of leaving for a long time.
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
I did nothing. I just left. I got a night job completely outside of my field doing something exciting that I'd wondered about for ages. I started that while I was still in academia, but eventually I disengaged from the lab and did the night gig full time. It was an exciting period. I'd always had a threadbare budget, and I thought that would have prepared me more, but in hindsight I could have and should have been wiser with my money. So, make a budget and be honest and clear with yourself about how much you have available and how much you're willing to scale back in service of the instability and flexibility of changing your career. I spent a year and a half, maybe two years, in this transition period. It was great fun, but it was mostly a step back for my career. It didn't do good things for my credit, finances, etc. But man will I be telling stories from those years for life.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
Ultimately I moved toward using my working hours--not necessarily my specific training--to move forward the goals of a niche nonprofit organization that was doing work I felt fully aligned with. I had no idea they needed someone with my skills--as a scientist in general, not specifically a scientist with the background I'd had--but I met my future boss at a social event and offhandedly said that I wished I could work for her. And she said, oh my god are you kidding, you can, of course you can! We worked together to develop a job description and hone in on how and where I could use my existing skills and develop new ones. So, to your question, the greatest skill I brought was extreme flexibility and creativity, willingness and interest in working for and being useful for a mission that I identified with, and an eagerness to jump into the work.
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
Well it's been about fifteen years and I'm now the most senior member of a department that I built up to more than 20 people who, like myself (and like you) didn't know they could use their training to work on the work that we do. Instead of being anchored to work in a single lab, I've moved from place to place to place where I want to live. I haven't made a mint, and for years I worked for incredibly little. But the last few years have made me feel like I've arrived at an income I can be proud of, with years of work under my belt that I feel viscerally proud of (and grateful for).
Is this the last stop? Honestly, I don't know. I see at least a few more years working on long-term projects I've started here, and then maybe I'll have the nerve to try to go back to academia. That somehow feels more fitting, coming into academia after a career's worth of experience rather than before it. I still shudder at the thought, though, so I'd say my exit has worked out as well as I could have expected.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 12:52 AM on March 31, 2022
1. Did anyone feel this way during their time in academia?
I'm not exactly you, but I'm not that far off. I had a rocky path through my PhD, switched advisors once, took a very long time to finish, and ended up without much of a scholarly record to show for it. I got a lecturer position in a different department at the same university and taught various classes in statistics and machine learning there. I was thinking about trying to shift my research focus, get a foothold with a paper or two, and shoot for a better academic job. Six months after my defense, the pandemic hit and there was a major (non-pandemic) illness in my family, and I spent the next 1.5 years struggling just to keep things together and making zero progress on any research. After the spring semester in 2021 I decided to start looking for private sector jobs.
Late in the summer I saw two jobs cross my radar that fell into an area of "not the pie-in-the-sky dream job, but interesting and potentially fun," and figured that they would be good first jobs to apply to, because they would force me to write a resume and practice writing a cover letter, but I wouldn't be broken up about not getting them. I ended up not completing the application for one (they had annoyingly long and specific requirements for the cover letter). The other one is now my job.
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
In my case, it turned out that my time teaching statistics course was the most useful technical preparation for the job I ended up taking. I was in fact assigned a new course in fall 2020, dove deep into the material in preparation, and the specialized topic of this course is the main thing I got hired for. So there was some good luck in that.
Outside of the technical skills, I prepared myself for the application process by talking to other people I knew who had made the same move, reading the book So, What Are You Going To Do With That? to get some examples of successful resumes and cover letters, and reading the Ask A Manager blog's advice on interview preparation. Once I got to the point of applying for specific jobs, I came up with and practiced a short explanation of why that job specifically drew me in. I didn't go over the top for this -- my new job is in sports analytics, and I was honest about the fact that while I enjoy sports in general, I hadn't been more than a casual fan of this specific sport for a long time -- but I made sure I had at least some story to tell on this front.
Finally, one of the hardest parts was letting go of the idea I had built for myself of my future in academia. I think to some degree this just came down to forcing myself to do it. I kind of didn't feel like I could make this step until I had the job offer in hand, and it didn't feel entirely real until I started. Something of a "the only way out is through" scenario.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/wanted in your new job?
My new job is explicitly a statistical modeling job, so statistics and programming are the big ones. As I said before, I had been teaching these topics for a couple of years, which gave me a decent systematic knowledge of them, but like you all of my programming and stats knowledge is self-taught. I also think I got hired in part for communication and presentation skills. I leaned pretty heavily on this in my cover letter and interview, emphasizing that my teaching experience prepared me to present my work to a variety of people at different levels of technical detail. This might not work at every organization, but most companies do need people who can interface between the technical research folks and the rest of the business, so I suspect it's valuable in many jobs.
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
Well, I'm only about 3 months out of academia at this point, so I don't have a great answer for this yet. But I'm much less stressed out at my job than I was. I get to apply the same technical skills I was excited about before to fun problems. And the pay and benefits are better. So all in all, it's turned out pretty well so far.
posted by egregious theorem at 12:18 PM on March 31, 2022
I'm not exactly you, but I'm not that far off. I had a rocky path through my PhD, switched advisors once, took a very long time to finish, and ended up without much of a scholarly record to show for it. I got a lecturer position in a different department at the same university and taught various classes in statistics and machine learning there. I was thinking about trying to shift my research focus, get a foothold with a paper or two, and shoot for a better academic job. Six months after my defense, the pandemic hit and there was a major (non-pandemic) illness in my family, and I spent the next 1.5 years struggling just to keep things together and making zero progress on any research. After the spring semester in 2021 I decided to start looking for private sector jobs.
Late in the summer I saw two jobs cross my radar that fell into an area of "not the pie-in-the-sky dream job, but interesting and potentially fun," and figured that they would be good first jobs to apply to, because they would force me to write a resume and practice writing a cover letter, but I wouldn't be broken up about not getting them. I ended up not completing the application for one (they had annoyingly long and specific requirements for the cover letter). The other one is now my job.
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
In my case, it turned out that my time teaching statistics course was the most useful technical preparation for the job I ended up taking. I was in fact assigned a new course in fall 2020, dove deep into the material in preparation, and the specialized topic of this course is the main thing I got hired for. So there was some good luck in that.
Outside of the technical skills, I prepared myself for the application process by talking to other people I knew who had made the same move, reading the book So, What Are You Going To Do With That? to get some examples of successful resumes and cover letters, and reading the Ask A Manager blog's advice on interview preparation. Once I got to the point of applying for specific jobs, I came up with and practiced a short explanation of why that job specifically drew me in. I didn't go over the top for this -- my new job is in sports analytics, and I was honest about the fact that while I enjoy sports in general, I hadn't been more than a casual fan of this specific sport for a long time -- but I made sure I had at least some story to tell on this front.
Finally, one of the hardest parts was letting go of the idea I had built for myself of my future in academia. I think to some degree this just came down to forcing myself to do it. I kind of didn't feel like I could make this step until I had the job offer in hand, and it didn't feel entirely real until I started. Something of a "the only way out is through" scenario.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/wanted in your new job?
My new job is explicitly a statistical modeling job, so statistics and programming are the big ones. As I said before, I had been teaching these topics for a couple of years, which gave me a decent systematic knowledge of them, but like you all of my programming and stats knowledge is self-taught. I also think I got hired in part for communication and presentation skills. I leaned pretty heavily on this in my cover letter and interview, emphasizing that my teaching experience prepared me to present my work to a variety of people at different levels of technical detail. This might not work at every organization, but most companies do need people who can interface between the technical research folks and the rest of the business, so I suspect it's valuable in many jobs.
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
Well, I'm only about 3 months out of academia at this point, so I don't have a great answer for this yet. But I'm much less stressed out at my job than I was. I get to apply the same technical skills I was excited about before to fun problems. And the pay and benefits are better. So all in all, it's turned out pretty well so far.
posted by egregious theorem at 12:18 PM on March 31, 2022
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Big time! PhD in sociology with a very heavy gender/sexualities slant, all qualitative at a social sciences department of an ex-polytechnic in the UK (read, not great). 2 publications, one post-doc and a realisation that I do not want to spend the next 5-6 years of my life moving all over the place to maybe have a shot at a lectureship. For context, there is no tenure in the UK but permanent lectureships are kind of it, and for my particular field they are like gold dust.
2. If you quit, what did you do to prepare yourself to make the move?
Can't exactly say I prepared myself much. It was more of a "need plan B desperately, have no idea what to do" and my supervisor mentioned that a friend of a friend was looking for a project coordinator on an e-learning project. 18 months into the job, the project manager left and I stepped up and fell into project management.
3. What skills turned out to be most important/ wanted in your new job?
I've been a project manager in higher education settings for 12 years now, 6 in IT. The most important skill turns out to be the whole gamut of communication skills. In a single day, I need to talk to teams of people who will have a very different slant on the project and very different understanding of the software that is being implemented. I need to be able to code-switch very quickly and adapt my message, and navigate between techies and non-techies. This is a skill I learnt when presenting my research to all sorts of audiences, when teaching students and when trying to pitch for funding.
4. How did it turn out for you at the end?
Reasonably well as it turns out. I have no passion for project management:) but it is a very solid gig, I have time to do things on the side (like doing counselling training which is very much a passion project), and now that I have a really good line manager I actually have scope to do bits and pieces of work on the academic side of things. I am financially secure, will be mortgage free next year and have a 9-5 job with excellent benefits.
But I won't lie, it has been painful getting there, I still occasionally wonder "what if..." and a couple of the peers I started out with are now senior lecturers and have "made it". But then I think about some of students in my PhD cohort who are doing jobs in call centres and cobble together zero hours teaching contracts because they are still holding on to hope.
posted by coffee_monster at 3:09 AM on March 30, 2022