Why won't this crazy idea work: alcohol and dairy.
March 25, 2022 11:08 AM
I only use cream for cooking, mostly in sauces, and that only rarely, so I throw it out a lot. Crazy idea: how much alcohol would I have to add to make it keep longer? Could I reasonably cook that alcohol back out again when using it? On reflection I assume this doesn't work or people would be doing it, but I'm curious what the problem is.
do you use 1/2 n 1/2 for coffee? we run into the same issue with not using all the cream, so we'll buy some regular milk and make our own 1/2 n 1/2.
posted by supermedusa at 11:15 AM on March 25, 2022
posted by supermedusa at 11:15 AM on March 25, 2022
In my experience, alcohol curdles dairy (the fats seperate from the liquids) so it wouldn't end up with anything very tasty or useful. I'm curious, though, if it could be whipped together for non drinking later...
aha, on late preview: the chemists know why!
posted by Grim Fridge at 11:15 AM on March 25, 2022
aha, on late preview: the chemists know why!
posted by Grim Fridge at 11:15 AM on March 25, 2022
Home-made Irish Cream liqueur seems to be about 1:1 with cream/condensed milk and can be stored for a couple of months in the fridge.
You can just freeze the cream.
posted by TORunner at 11:16 AM on March 25, 2022
You can just freeze the cream.
posted by TORunner at 11:16 AM on March 25, 2022
I mean what do you think bailey's is? There are a variety of cream/dairy based alcoholic beverages out there. The ratio is generally 2 cream : 1 alcohol but that's going to depend on the proof of alcohol you use obviously, and sugar content helps preservation as well. It's really not going to taste how you want it to.
Either buy less, use more, turn it into butter, or freeze your cream in an ice cube tray to portion it and take a block as needed.
posted by phunniemee at 11:19 AM on March 25, 2022
Either buy less, use more, turn it into butter, or freeze your cream in an ice cube tray to portion it and take a block as needed.
posted by phunniemee at 11:19 AM on March 25, 2022
I had this problem and clearly am not alone as I found UHT cream in little box packs of 4x 150ml. Just right for adding to sauce and keeps forever!
posted by tardigrade at 11:20 AM on March 25, 2022
posted by tardigrade at 11:20 AM on March 25, 2022
My friend's eggnog is about 40 proof and lasts indefinitely in the fridge (ages for months, then is drunk over the course of a few months). You need more alcohol than you'll want to deal with removing later unless you're making a vodka sauce.
If you can sub in neufchatel or cream cheese, those keep longer, but the sauce will be a bit different. Works for me for creamy sauces but not cream-based sauces, if that makes sense.
posted by momus_window at 11:22 AM on March 25, 2022
If you can sub in neufchatel or cream cheese, those keep longer, but the sauce will be a bit different. Works for me for creamy sauces but not cream-based sauces, if that makes sense.
posted by momus_window at 11:22 AM on March 25, 2022
Heavy cream powder. Use a battery/usb frother to blend it, works a charm. Keep the remaining powder in the freezer.
If you don't add enough alcohol to make it curdle in the first place, it will spoil before terribly long - even stuff like Bailey's with additional preservatives in it. You don't want to know how I know.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:22 AM on March 25, 2022
If you don't add enough alcohol to make it curdle in the first place, it will spoil before terribly long - even stuff like Bailey's with additional preservatives in it. You don't want to know how I know.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:22 AM on March 25, 2022
Like tardigrade says, look for UHT (ultra heat treated) milk and cream instead of regular. It's shelf life is much longer, like measured in months instead of weeks.
Or you can buy shelf-stable UHT non-dairy cream, but it doesn't taste quite the same as dairy and is generally not as good as a cooking ingredient.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:33 AM on March 25, 2022
Or you can buy shelf-stable UHT non-dairy cream, but it doesn't taste quite the same as dairy and is generally not as good as a cooking ingredient.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:33 AM on March 25, 2022
I have an alternate solution: instead of continuing to buy cream and not use it up as fast, maybe try not buying cream and doing something else instead.
I once found myself without cream in a pinch - and found that you can hack a substitution for cream if you have whole milk and butter. That link says that for a cup of cream, melt a quarter cup of butter and add it to 3/4 cup of milk; I scaled it down to the amount of cream I needed (I needed something like a quarter cup) and it worked just fine. And if you think about it: butter is made by churning heavy cream, and milk is what you get when you skim the heavy cream off what you got from the cow, so putting butter back into milk makes some sense. The link there says that the butter-and-milk approach works well with sauces, which is what you'd be doing anyway.
So maybe try that instead of buying cream and trying to preserve the excess.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:35 AM on March 25, 2022
I once found myself without cream in a pinch - and found that you can hack a substitution for cream if you have whole milk and butter. That link says that for a cup of cream, melt a quarter cup of butter and add it to 3/4 cup of milk; I scaled it down to the amount of cream I needed (I needed something like a quarter cup) and it worked just fine. And if you think about it: butter is made by churning heavy cream, and milk is what you get when you skim the heavy cream off what you got from the cow, so putting butter back into milk makes some sense. The link there says that the butter-and-milk approach works well with sauces, which is what you'd be doing anyway.
So maybe try that instead of buying cream and trying to preserve the excess.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:35 AM on March 25, 2022
How pasteurized is your cream and how much longer do you want it to last? When I buy cream it usually has an expiry date at least a month (sometimes even longer!) in the future - I guess UHT cream is the norm where I am (also in the past Trader Joe's has sold little juice-box-sized tetrapak boxes of shelf-stable whipping cream - something like that might be a good option).
It's true that if you add enough alcohol to the cream there's a good risk it will curdle - this is the foundation of a clarified milk punch! (Clarified milk punch is a pain in the ass to make but keeps very well.)
posted by mskyle at 11:42 AM on March 25, 2022
It's true that if you add enough alcohol to the cream there's a good risk it will curdle - this is the foundation of a clarified milk punch! (Clarified milk punch is a pain in the ass to make but keeps very well.)
posted by mskyle at 11:42 AM on March 25, 2022
Heh. I really am looking for weird chemistry facts and not domestic advice. I promise I've heard of butter, buying less, etc. :)
the amount of alcohol you'd need to lengthen preservation would curdle the cream (by denaturing the proteins) this via my culinarily brilliant also chemist husband.
I mean what do you think bailey's is? There are a variety of cream/dairy based alcoholic beverages out there. The ratio is generally 2 cream : 1 alcohol but that's going to depend on the proof of alcohol you use obviously, and sugar content helps preservation as well. It's really not going to taste how you want it to.
Wait, these seem like they contradict each other. How is Bailey's possible if that much alcohol curdles cream?
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:42 AM on March 25, 2022
the amount of alcohol you'd need to lengthen preservation would curdle the cream (by denaturing the proteins) this via my culinarily brilliant also chemist husband.
I mean what do you think bailey's is? There are a variety of cream/dairy based alcoholic beverages out there. The ratio is generally 2 cream : 1 alcohol but that's going to depend on the proof of alcohol you use obviously, and sugar content helps preservation as well. It's really not going to taste how you want it to.
Wait, these seem like they contradict each other. How is Bailey's possible if that much alcohol curdles cream?
posted by nebulawindphone at 11:42 AM on March 25, 2022
Alcohol does not curdle cream at the relevant concentrations, at least in my experience of making aged eggnog. It is possible that something in the eggs prevents this curdling, but I don't think that's the case (Bailey's doesn't contain eggs, though it does have some chemicals added that might be doing something). It is quite hard to curdle heavy cream as compared to milk. I don't believe it is the alcohol itself that can curdle milk, but rather the acidity of the spirit.
Here is a good article about making aged eggnog, which says it comes out sterile after 24 hours at 20% alcohol (sadly the link to the actual investigation is dead). I can confirm that aged eggnog at this concentration stays good indefinitely. So I think it would be a reasonable experiment to mix half heavy cream and half 40% vodka, which should keep as long as you care to keep it for. Lower concentrations of alcohol would probably greatly extend the fridge life of the cream, but you'd need to experiment to figure out the details.
To extract the alcohol back out of the cream, you'd need a small still.
Practically, if you're using it for cooking, freeze it in an ice cube tray.
posted by ssg at 12:07 PM on March 25, 2022
Here is a good article about making aged eggnog, which says it comes out sterile after 24 hours at 20% alcohol (sadly the link to the actual investigation is dead). I can confirm that aged eggnog at this concentration stays good indefinitely. So I think it would be a reasonable experiment to mix half heavy cream and half 40% vodka, which should keep as long as you care to keep it for. Lower concentrations of alcohol would probably greatly extend the fridge life of the cream, but you'd need to experiment to figure out the details.
To extract the alcohol back out of the cream, you'd need a small still.
Practically, if you're using it for cooking, freeze it in an ice cube tray.
posted by ssg at 12:07 PM on March 25, 2022
You don't want to know how I know.
This is true. I know how you know and wish I didn't. I used to have strange notions that alcoholic stuff lasts forever somehow. But no! I found out that no! No, it does not! Bad Bailey's is so, sooo bad.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:11 PM on March 25, 2022
This is true. I know how you know and wish I didn't. I used to have strange notions that alcoholic stuff lasts forever somehow. But no! I found out that no! No, it does not! Bad Bailey's is so, sooo bad.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:11 PM on March 25, 2022
Here is a video that goes into some detail about a similar experiment. Here they are using significantly lower than 20% alcohol (maybe something like 15%) and end up with sterilization within three weeks — so probably you could get away with a little less than half alcohol.
posted by ssg at 12:18 PM on March 25, 2022
posted by ssg at 12:18 PM on March 25, 2022
How is Bailey's possible if that much alcohol curdles cream?
I'm not sure it does at the ratios you might try, seeing as Brandy Milk Punch is a thing. When you make a clarified milk punch (which relies on curdled milk, a technique sometimes called milk washing) it's understood to be the acid from citrus juice that causes the curdling. In the related video, Dan Souza mentions a technique from Dave Arnold's book Liquid Intelligence that calls for adding a citric acid solution instead of lemon juice to get the necessary curdling without the lemon flavor. I think it really is about the pH and not the proof.
Shit. Now I want to make some more clarified milk punch.
posted by fedward at 12:30 PM on March 25, 2022
I'm not sure it does at the ratios you might try, seeing as Brandy Milk Punch is a thing. When you make a clarified milk punch (which relies on curdled milk, a technique sometimes called milk washing) it's understood to be the acid from citrus juice that causes the curdling. In the related video, Dan Souza mentions a technique from Dave Arnold's book Liquid Intelligence that calls for adding a citric acid solution instead of lemon juice to get the necessary curdling without the lemon flavor. I think it really is about the pH and not the proof.
Shit. Now I want to make some more clarified milk punch.
posted by fedward at 12:30 PM on March 25, 2022
BTW there's a Punch article about milk washing that includes that recipe from Dave Arnold's book. The clarified mixture goes into a cocktail shaken with fresh lemon juice and an egg white for a particular foamy texture. While you can bottle a standard clarified milk punch cocktail seemingly indefinitely, the whey in the milk-washed mix loses its ability to foam that way in about five days, which might be relevant to your cooking needs.
posted by fedward at 1:06 PM on March 25, 2022
posted by fedward at 1:06 PM on March 25, 2022
I drank some 3 year old aged eggnog out of my fridge the other day (just to see if it was gross!) and while the spices tasted I dunno, flabby? the dairy wasn't sour or curdled. I used alton brown's recipe, and I had some slight separation of the alcohol in the bottle, but I think that only started a few months ago. Maybe the egg yolks help to keep it emulsified, maybe they are unnecessary?
I think you should just try this in the name of kitchen science! all your sauces might end up vodka-sauces, but I think this is a really interesting idea of an ingredient to have in the fridge!
posted by euphoria066 at 4:06 PM on March 25, 2022
I think you should just try this in the name of kitchen science! all your sauces might end up vodka-sauces, but I think this is a really interesting idea of an ingredient to have in the fridge!
posted by euphoria066 at 4:06 PM on March 25, 2022
Much simpler: Trader Joe’s sells little tiny boxes of shelf-stable cream that will keep basically forever at room temp unopened. I always keep a few around.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:21 PM on March 25, 2022
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:21 PM on March 25, 2022
Bailey's doesn't contain eggs, though it does have some chemicals added that might be doing something
Bailey's has a number of emulsifiers and sodium citrate, which is the same thing added to processed cheese and cheese sauces to keep them from getting grainy. I suspect the sugar may be helping somewhat, as well.
posted by quizzical at 4:50 PM on March 25, 2022
Bailey's has a number of emulsifiers and sodium citrate, which is the same thing added to processed cheese and cheese sauces to keep them from getting grainy. I suspect the sugar may be helping somewhat, as well.
posted by quizzical at 4:50 PM on March 25, 2022
Now I'm wondering about hydrogen peroxide or sodium hypochlorite, I've seen both as "add a drop or two" to some sort of long store ingestible liquid to halt bacterial growth.
posted by zengargoyle at 5:13 PM on March 25, 2022
posted by zengargoyle at 5:13 PM on March 25, 2022
How is Bailey's possible if that much alcohol curdles cream?
The higher fat content, the less likely dairy products are to curdle. Alcohols are weak acids and can curdle milk, especially if you add another acid, if the milk is old, or you're using skim milk. But you don't make Irish Cream with milk; you make it with half and half or cream.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:19 PM on March 25, 2022
The higher fat content, the less likely dairy products are to curdle. Alcohols are weak acids and can curdle milk, especially if you add another acid, if the milk is old, or you're using skim milk. But you don't make Irish Cream with milk; you make it with half and half or cream.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:19 PM on March 25, 2022
Tangentially: the history of the invention of Bailey's Irish Cream.
posted by fairmettle at 11:51 PM on March 25, 2022
posted by fairmettle at 11:51 PM on March 25, 2022
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posted by supermedusa at 11:14 AM on March 25, 2022