Believers: how does prayer work?
January 15, 2022 1:49 AM Subscribe
I am not religious or spiritual, but I find it interesting. I don't understand how prayer is supposed to work. I do understand that praying can be a way to help you get your thoughts centered, and that expressing gratitude can be good for your mood. What I don't understand is the idea that praying for something might cause that thing to happen, that wouldn't've happened if you didn't pray.
Is the idea that God hears your prayer, thinks your praying shows that you're worthy, and grants your request? Wouldn't that mean that good things happen more to people who pray than to people who don't pray? Or... what am I missing? Why would God, who presumably knows everything and has a plan for everything, change those plans because some dude asks for it?
Is the idea that God hears your prayer, thinks your praying shows that you're worthy, and grants your request? Wouldn't that mean that good things happen more to people who pray than to people who don't pray? Or... what am I missing? Why would God, who presumably knows everything and has a plan for everything, change those plans because some dude asks for it?
You can't just pray to get the thing you want to happen. It's generally the deepest moments of happiness or sorrow that a non religious person would use to pray but religious very spiritually connected people talk to God fairly often as a show of reverence to his guidance and power. Prayer can just be to thank God for things that would have happened anyway, or the knowledge that these things brought into view, or even for new wisdom in unfamiliar settings. Getting what you want from a prayer is not your will , ts already willed to be but you need to believe in the destiny of it to get God to hand it to you. And by hand I mean give understanding
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 3:19 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 3:19 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Here is Emily Dickinson on that:
Prayer is the little implement
Through which Men reach
Where Presence — is denied them –
They fling their Speech
By means of it — in God's Ear —
If then He hear —
This sums the Apparatus
Comprised in Prayer —
posted by Short Attention Sp at 4:49 AM on January 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Prayer is the little implement
Through which Men reach
Where Presence — is denied them –
They fling their Speech
By means of it — in God's Ear —
If then He hear —
This sums the Apparatus
Comprised in Prayer —
posted by Short Attention Sp at 4:49 AM on January 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
Mod note: A couple deleted. OP has asked for explanations from *believers* about how prayer works ... ie, what are the moving parts, and how do they engage, basically. As always, Ask Metafilter is not for general discussion / debate, etc., so if you aren't answering this* question as someone who does pray and has a specific belief in what it means, please skip this one. Thanks.
* (not "why do people pray" or "is praying good," or "how do you feel about prayer as a person who doesn't pray / believe in prayer, etc.)
posted by taz (staff) at 4:53 AM on January 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
* (not "why do people pray" or "is praying good," or "how do you feel about prayer as a person who doesn't pray / believe in prayer, etc.)
posted by taz (staff) at 4:53 AM on January 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
My answer is from the perspective of American Christianity - I am Catholic but spent years as a fundamentalist Christian as part of the 1970s Jesus movement. I was also an agnostic for many years before returning to the Catholic church.
First, I want to push back on two assumptions in your question. The first is that God has predestined what will happen to everyone. This is a belief among some Christians, but not all by any means - I have never thought this in any of my iterations of Christianity. So praying for something is not necessarily considered to be asking God to alter His plans.
The second is that answers to prayer are tied to worthiness of the person praying. While I've no doubt this attitude exists, I would not call it mainstream. In fact, it flies in the face of a story Jesus told about a Pharisee whose prayer concentrated on his own worthiness. For a lot of us, the whole idea of Christianity is that none of us are worthy, but that God loves and hears us in spite of our unworthiness.
That said, prayer is something I personally struggle with. When I was a fundamentalist, I struggled with it because, reading the Bible, Jesus pretty clearly states that if you ask God for something, he will give it to you. The "if it's his will" seemed to me then to be an add-on by people who weren't brave enough to really believe the Bible (I was kind of an ass then). It also felt like trying to excuse unanswered prayer; however, having enough faith shows up in the Bible a lot - also troubling to me because I don't know what you do if you don't have enough faith. At that time, I also saw a lot of prayer as being able to ask God for stuff, which now seems overly simplistic to me. The Lord's prayer is often held up as an example of the perfect prayer, and only one part of it could be characterized as asking for a thing: "Give us this day our daily bread." I now find that profound, and reciting it helps me focus on what seems to me to really be reasonable to ask for - as what it also says about what now is called "living one day at a time." I find reciting the Lord's prayer in general to be an exercise in focusing on what is important in my daily life.
When I read the autobiography of Shinichi Suzuki, famous for inventing the Suzuki method of studying music, I was really struck by him saying that when he went to the Temple, all he felt he could say to God was thank you. He never asked for anything anymore. I believe he practiced the Shinto religion, but I'm not sure. And I'm not sure if Temple is the right word.
When I pray now, I see it as my attempt to connect with God. Sometimes I do ask for stuff, most notably healing of my body (I have cancer), but I don't really expect it. I treasure my life, but if I were God planning to heal a few people of cancer, I would not pick me (old person with grown children). I recite the Lord's prayer and the Hail Mary, and then I sort of talk with God - a lot about what I can do to be a better person. Sometimes I practice centering prayer, which is a Christian form of meditation. In general, I think this prayer can be helpful in the same way as meditation is. As I pray more, over time, I've found that my feeling of connection to God has grown. I am also planning to start working with a spiritual director, and I hope that will help me with my problems with prayer.
One thing I feel kind of reluctant to say here is that, when I was a fundamentalist, I saw something related to prayer that I have no rational explanation for. One day, a person with an acute medical issue walked into our coffeehouse, and we put our hands on him and prayed fervently and saw an instantaneous change (not giving the whole context here, so don't feel like you know enough to judge us). There were no medical personnel involved, no medical treatment, just a bunch of kids who really believed that God would answer our prayer in that moment. This person's problem was resolved instantly. It was astonishing. I will not expose the details to the naysayers here, but I have never gotten over it.
posted by FencingGal at 5:51 AM on January 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
First, I want to push back on two assumptions in your question. The first is that God has predestined what will happen to everyone. This is a belief among some Christians, but not all by any means - I have never thought this in any of my iterations of Christianity. So praying for something is not necessarily considered to be asking God to alter His plans.
The second is that answers to prayer are tied to worthiness of the person praying. While I've no doubt this attitude exists, I would not call it mainstream. In fact, it flies in the face of a story Jesus told about a Pharisee whose prayer concentrated on his own worthiness. For a lot of us, the whole idea of Christianity is that none of us are worthy, but that God loves and hears us in spite of our unworthiness.
That said, prayer is something I personally struggle with. When I was a fundamentalist, I struggled with it because, reading the Bible, Jesus pretty clearly states that if you ask God for something, he will give it to you. The "if it's his will" seemed to me then to be an add-on by people who weren't brave enough to really believe the Bible (I was kind of an ass then). It also felt like trying to excuse unanswered prayer; however, having enough faith shows up in the Bible a lot - also troubling to me because I don't know what you do if you don't have enough faith. At that time, I also saw a lot of prayer as being able to ask God for stuff, which now seems overly simplistic to me. The Lord's prayer is often held up as an example of the perfect prayer, and only one part of it could be characterized as asking for a thing: "Give us this day our daily bread." I now find that profound, and reciting it helps me focus on what seems to me to really be reasonable to ask for - as what it also says about what now is called "living one day at a time." I find reciting the Lord's prayer in general to be an exercise in focusing on what is important in my daily life.
When I read the autobiography of Shinichi Suzuki, famous for inventing the Suzuki method of studying music, I was really struck by him saying that when he went to the Temple, all he felt he could say to God was thank you. He never asked for anything anymore. I believe he practiced the Shinto religion, but I'm not sure. And I'm not sure if Temple is the right word.
When I pray now, I see it as my attempt to connect with God. Sometimes I do ask for stuff, most notably healing of my body (I have cancer), but I don't really expect it. I treasure my life, but if I were God planning to heal a few people of cancer, I would not pick me (old person with grown children). I recite the Lord's prayer and the Hail Mary, and then I sort of talk with God - a lot about what I can do to be a better person. Sometimes I practice centering prayer, which is a Christian form of meditation. In general, I think this prayer can be helpful in the same way as meditation is. As I pray more, over time, I've found that my feeling of connection to God has grown. I am also planning to start working with a spiritual director, and I hope that will help me with my problems with prayer.
One thing I feel kind of reluctant to say here is that, when I was a fundamentalist, I saw something related to prayer that I have no rational explanation for. One day, a person with an acute medical issue walked into our coffeehouse, and we put our hands on him and prayed fervently and saw an instantaneous change (not giving the whole context here, so don't feel like you know enough to judge us). There were no medical personnel involved, no medical treatment, just a bunch of kids who really believed that God would answer our prayer in that moment. This person's problem was resolved instantly. It was astonishing. I will not expose the details to the naysayers here, but I have never gotten over it.
posted by FencingGal at 5:51 AM on January 15, 2022 [21 favorites]
What I don't understand is the idea that praying for something might cause that thing to happen, that wouldn't've happened if you didn't pray. Is the idea that God hears your prayer, thinks your praying shows that you're worthy, and grants your request? Wouldn't that mean that good things happen more to people who pray than to people who don't pray?
In bold strokes...kinda? It's not that praying means that you're "more worthy" - it's more like, praying is your way of letting God know you need something. Jesus would often compare it to a parent-child relationship - lots of sayings or parables around the general theme of "God is like your parent in Heaven, and what parent wouldn't give their kid food if their kid said 'Dad, I'm hungry'?"
In fact, think of it like flagging here on Metafilter. If there's a bit of an iffy comment here, and a mod notices it, they would likely delete it. But they may not notice it, or they may think that "maybe other people aren't as bothered by it and maybe I should leave it". But if people flag that comment, it brings that comment to the attention of the mods and lets them know people are bothered by it, and that makes it more likely to be deleted, faster. It's not that the people flagging things are more worthy, and it's DEFINTELY not that the mods are looking at who does the flagging and are thinking "oh, okay, so-and-so flagged this so I need to do something because they're special". It's more a matter of "oh hey, I was in the middle of something but a lot of people are flagging this, I better go look now...oh man, yeah, let's yank this."
So asking for things in prayer is more a matter of "instead of waiting around for God to do something, I'm directly asking God for it and trusting He will do something."
Why would God, who presumably knows everything and has a plan for everything, change those plans because some dude asks for it?
This is a question a lot of theists also have issues with, to the point that there's bumper-sticker-level stuff in response to it. A saying I've heard is: "God always answers our prayers - it's just that sometimes He says 'no'." Also, a lot of the things people pray about are also things that deal with their own immediate lives - most people aren't praying for global-scale things, but more like "let me get an 'A' on this pop quiz" or "I need to find a way to afford the new water heater". Also, sometimes the faithful kind of expand their definition of how God "answers" their prayers - like, that person praying about being able to afford the new water heater might notice a sale on water heaters two weeks later which puts one of them in their reach, and regard that as God's answer to their prayer. Or the person who wants to get an "A" on the pop quiz might get a B+ and think "you know what, close enough!" The people who pray for things don't necessarily see God as "omnipotent being with an ineffable global plan" so much as they see God as "someone I am in a personal relationship with".
Also, sometimes prayers aren't necessarily about asking for specific outcomes so much as they're about alerting God to problems. I distinctly remember a Sunday School session when I was seven when the nun who taught the class used the Bible Story of the Wedding at Cana as an example: this is the story where Jesus turns water into wine. But the whole story is that Jesus and His mother Mary are guests at a wedding, and Mary overhears the hosts fretting that the wine has run out - and she nudges Jesus and tells him "they don't have any more wine," and Jesus goes over and tells the hosts to bring up a couple of their big water jugs. The hosts are of course confused by this until they start pouring cups of the water and see that "holy shit it's wine". The nun teaching the class pointed out HOW Mary phrased the question - she didn't say "hey, Jesus, do a miracle and turn the water into wine." She said "hey, the hosts have run out of wine." She was only giving Jesus a heads-up about the problem, and was leaving Jesus to decide WHAT to do to fix it; Jesus could have also magically made everyone suddenly decide "yo, I've had enough wine" or could have magically caused a wine cart to crash just outside or could have magically had some dude turn up with three more casks of wine as a wedding gift. HOW He fixed the problem was up to Him. And that's how we should pray, that nun said - just tell God about what the problem was, because God has such a complex plan He's working on and may think of a better way to fix things than the way you can think of.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:54 AM on January 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
In bold strokes...kinda? It's not that praying means that you're "more worthy" - it's more like, praying is your way of letting God know you need something. Jesus would often compare it to a parent-child relationship - lots of sayings or parables around the general theme of "God is like your parent in Heaven, and what parent wouldn't give their kid food if their kid said 'Dad, I'm hungry'?"
In fact, think of it like flagging here on Metafilter. If there's a bit of an iffy comment here, and a mod notices it, they would likely delete it. But they may not notice it, or they may think that "maybe other people aren't as bothered by it and maybe I should leave it". But if people flag that comment, it brings that comment to the attention of the mods and lets them know people are bothered by it, and that makes it more likely to be deleted, faster. It's not that the people flagging things are more worthy, and it's DEFINTELY not that the mods are looking at who does the flagging and are thinking "oh, okay, so-and-so flagged this so I need to do something because they're special". It's more a matter of "oh hey, I was in the middle of something but a lot of people are flagging this, I better go look now...oh man, yeah, let's yank this."
So asking for things in prayer is more a matter of "instead of waiting around for God to do something, I'm directly asking God for it and trusting He will do something."
Why would God, who presumably knows everything and has a plan for everything, change those plans because some dude asks for it?
This is a question a lot of theists also have issues with, to the point that there's bumper-sticker-level stuff in response to it. A saying I've heard is: "God always answers our prayers - it's just that sometimes He says 'no'." Also, a lot of the things people pray about are also things that deal with their own immediate lives - most people aren't praying for global-scale things, but more like "let me get an 'A' on this pop quiz" or "I need to find a way to afford the new water heater". Also, sometimes the faithful kind of expand their definition of how God "answers" their prayers - like, that person praying about being able to afford the new water heater might notice a sale on water heaters two weeks later which puts one of them in their reach, and regard that as God's answer to their prayer. Or the person who wants to get an "A" on the pop quiz might get a B+ and think "you know what, close enough!" The people who pray for things don't necessarily see God as "omnipotent being with an ineffable global plan" so much as they see God as "someone I am in a personal relationship with".
Also, sometimes prayers aren't necessarily about asking for specific outcomes so much as they're about alerting God to problems. I distinctly remember a Sunday School session when I was seven when the nun who taught the class used the Bible Story of the Wedding at Cana as an example: this is the story where Jesus turns water into wine. But the whole story is that Jesus and His mother Mary are guests at a wedding, and Mary overhears the hosts fretting that the wine has run out - and she nudges Jesus and tells him "they don't have any more wine," and Jesus goes over and tells the hosts to bring up a couple of their big water jugs. The hosts are of course confused by this until they start pouring cups of the water and see that "holy shit it's wine". The nun teaching the class pointed out HOW Mary phrased the question - she didn't say "hey, Jesus, do a miracle and turn the water into wine." She said "hey, the hosts have run out of wine." She was only giving Jesus a heads-up about the problem, and was leaving Jesus to decide WHAT to do to fix it; Jesus could have also magically made everyone suddenly decide "yo, I've had enough wine" or could have magically caused a wine cart to crash just outside or could have magically had some dude turn up with three more casks of wine as a wedding gift. HOW He fixed the problem was up to Him. And that's how we should pray, that nun said - just tell God about what the problem was, because God has such a complex plan He's working on and may think of a better way to fix things than the way you can think of.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:54 AM on January 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
Agreeing this varies widely by faith and person. I grew up in the Presbyterian church which is based on Calvinist thought that is more on the predestination, "when you were first conceived, God had a plan for you" end of mainstream Christianity. I didn't really learn to pray for specific material things like "please give me an A on the test." We prayed perhaps for understanding, for guidance, so for God to work on us internally - think of the serenity prayer. We were also big on the power of praying together. "When two or three of you are gathered together in my name, there I am."
posted by muddgirl at 6:41 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 6:41 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
...the idea that praying for something might cause that thing to happen, that wouldn't've happened if you didn't pray.
I'm Jewish, raised Reform, and fairly secular, but I think prayer and religious ritual can still be effective, even when they do not "work" in the sense of, like, a magic spell in Dungeons and Dragons. I'm thinking specifically about prayer as a way of responding to concerns about the unknown, and primarily about the Mourner's Kaddish and the prayer for healing. I don't think anybody anywhere believes the Mourner's Kaddish will reanimate the dead, but I consider it really important to say.
There is a joke that goes, "Mr. Levi goes to synagogue to talk to Gd. Mr. Cohen goes to synagogue to talk to Mr. Levi," and it is funny because it's true: there are emotional benefits to doing literally any group or social activity, and in this way attending services can fill the same social function as a tennis club or cooking class or whatever, only unlike tennis there's not so much moving and sweating, and unlike a class you don't have to study or practice anything but listening and reading.
On this most tautological level, saying the Mourner's Kaddish is a thing that wouldn't've happened if you didn't say it. If you are part of a community where a prayer for the deceased and a prayer for the seriously ill are parts of your weekly or daily worship services, and you say somebody's name or ask the worship leader to name someone for you - "tonight we remember Sharon Cohen, aunt of Ben Cohen" - then you know this difficult thing has been heard by people around you, and people might chat with you after services or send you food or whatever.
On a more abstract level, I find it comforting to know that I have done the correct thing. When I am in a terrible, unexpected situation, I do not want to make complicated, emotionally-charged decisions. I have seen people plan memorials for dead people of no religion - especially people who died suddenly - and my Gd, what a nightmare. Designing ceremonies and rituals is hard and it's extra hard when it's for an unpleasant reason.
If you pray slowly because you don't do it super regularly and because you do the Reform-denomination thing of chanting in Hebrew first and then immediately repeating yourself in English (or another language you are fluent in), the Mourner's Kaddish still takes less than ten minutes. This is how I grew up saying prayers, and it's what I default to when leading prayers or praying alone.
I am ambivalent about whether Gd exists, about whether the spirits of dead people persist in any sense, and therefore about whether the Mourner's Kaddish benefits the deceased in any way. I will say that having a structured Thing To Do upon hearing of the death of someone you care about, something that has been done by millions of people before you for thousands of years, has been extremely helpful to me.
In a similar way, whether or not you have the ability to help a sick person in any direct way or to physically or virtually visit with them, you can include their name in the prayer for healing and know that you did something you were capable of doing. You made an attempt to help (even if it was purely symbolic and you couldn't convince yourself Gd existed or would respond) and you let other people know about the circumstances your loved one was in.
I think a lot of people, when faced with the terrible and the unknown, want to make attempts to help.
posted by All Might Be Well at 6:52 AM on January 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'm Jewish, raised Reform, and fairly secular, but I think prayer and religious ritual can still be effective, even when they do not "work" in the sense of, like, a magic spell in Dungeons and Dragons. I'm thinking specifically about prayer as a way of responding to concerns about the unknown, and primarily about the Mourner's Kaddish and the prayer for healing. I don't think anybody anywhere believes the Mourner's Kaddish will reanimate the dead, but I consider it really important to say.
There is a joke that goes, "Mr. Levi goes to synagogue to talk to Gd. Mr. Cohen goes to synagogue to talk to Mr. Levi," and it is funny because it's true: there are emotional benefits to doing literally any group or social activity, and in this way attending services can fill the same social function as a tennis club or cooking class or whatever, only unlike tennis there's not so much moving and sweating, and unlike a class you don't have to study or practice anything but listening and reading.
On this most tautological level, saying the Mourner's Kaddish is a thing that wouldn't've happened if you didn't say it. If you are part of a community where a prayer for the deceased and a prayer for the seriously ill are parts of your weekly or daily worship services, and you say somebody's name or ask the worship leader to name someone for you - "tonight we remember Sharon Cohen, aunt of Ben Cohen" - then you know this difficult thing has been heard by people around you, and people might chat with you after services or send you food or whatever.
On a more abstract level, I find it comforting to know that I have done the correct thing. When I am in a terrible, unexpected situation, I do not want to make complicated, emotionally-charged decisions. I have seen people plan memorials for dead people of no religion - especially people who died suddenly - and my Gd, what a nightmare. Designing ceremonies and rituals is hard and it's extra hard when it's for an unpleasant reason.
If you pray slowly because you don't do it super regularly and because you do the Reform-denomination thing of chanting in Hebrew first and then immediately repeating yourself in English (or another language you are fluent in), the Mourner's Kaddish still takes less than ten minutes. This is how I grew up saying prayers, and it's what I default to when leading prayers or praying alone.
I am ambivalent about whether Gd exists, about whether the spirits of dead people persist in any sense, and therefore about whether the Mourner's Kaddish benefits the deceased in any way. I will say that having a structured Thing To Do upon hearing of the death of someone you care about, something that has been done by millions of people before you for thousands of years, has been extremely helpful to me.
In a similar way, whether or not you have the ability to help a sick person in any direct way or to physically or virtually visit with them, you can include their name in the prayer for healing and know that you did something you were capable of doing. You made an attempt to help (even if it was purely symbolic and you couldn't convince yourself Gd existed or would respond) and you let other people know about the circumstances your loved one was in.
I think a lot of people, when faced with the terrible and the unknown, want to make attempts to help.
posted by All Might Be Well at 6:52 AM on January 15, 2022 [14 favorites]
I’ve become agnostic in adulthood, but I still pray sometimes, usually when there’s a lot that I’m juggling. For me I guess it’s sort of an acknowledgment that there are things that I don’t have control over and maybe I don’t know who to ask for help, but I have this hope that if I can put my words out into the universe then maybe somewhere, somehow there will be some sort of response. Logically I know this probably isn’t how things get solved, but for me I feel there is worth in giving the feelings in my heart space in the universe, even if it’s only through sound waves. I don’t really know how the universe works outside of what I see as a lot of randomness but I figure it’s good to cover my bases just in case something is inclined to answer my call.
posted by donut_princess at 7:34 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by donut_princess at 7:34 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also, if you find yourself wanting to dig deeper, I had an Ask a while ago asking for recommendations for books on prayer and got some great answers.
And Father James Martin has recently come out with a book on prayer. (Side note: Father Martin is well known among Catholics for his work promoting better inclusion of the LGBTQ+ community in the Catholic church, which means he's on the bad side of a lot of conservative Catholics.)
posted by FencingGal at 8:00 AM on January 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
And Father James Martin has recently come out with a book on prayer. (Side note: Father Martin is well known among Catholics for his work promoting better inclusion of the LGBTQ+ community in the Catholic church, which means he's on the bad side of a lot of conservative Catholics.)
posted by FencingGal at 8:00 AM on January 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
For me I guess it’s sort of an acknowledgment that there are things that I don’t have control over and maybe I don’t know who to ask for help, but I have this hope that if I can put my words out into the universe then maybe somewhere, somehow there will be some sort of response.
This is reminding me of something unexpectedly profound I once heard in an interview with Anthony Hopkins - he said that he has a friend who was a Jesuit priest, and once asked him what the shortest prayer in the world was. His friend said the shortest prayer is: "Fuck it." Because, he explained, that when you're at the point that you're saying "fuck it", you're kind of saying "alright, I give up - God, YOU take over."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is reminding me of something unexpectedly profound I once heard in an interview with Anthony Hopkins - he said that he has a friend who was a Jesuit priest, and once asked him what the shortest prayer in the world was. His friend said the shortest prayer is: "Fuck it." Because, he explained, that when you're at the point that you're saying "fuck it", you're kind of saying "alright, I give up - God, YOU take over."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:32 AM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
My recent practices have leaned heavily towards contemplative forms of prayer where the goal (and my words are not going to do justice here) is to simply rest in the presence of God, in the knowledge that He is the very ground of my being. Martin Laird's Into the Silent Land has been very useful; if contemplative prayer is anything that interests you, I can't recommend it highly enough. Ditto for David Steindl-Rast's Gratefulness, the Heart of Prayer.
The Catholic tradition recognizes several types of prayer - petitions among them, where we ask our Father for the things we need. There are also prayers of thanksgiving, but the point is less about a transaction and more about a relationship. There's also liturgical prayer - the public prayers of the entire Church. Chief among these is the Eucharist (the Mass), but also the Liturgy of Hours. These prayers are about participation in the inner, Triune life of God - the ongoing conversation between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit which proceeds from them.
Another two-word prayer which would be all sufficient: "Thank you!"
posted by jquinby at 8:36 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Catholic tradition recognizes several types of prayer - petitions among them, where we ask our Father for the things we need. There are also prayers of thanksgiving, but the point is less about a transaction and more about a relationship. There's also liturgical prayer - the public prayers of the entire Church. Chief among these is the Eucharist (the Mass), but also the Liturgy of Hours. These prayers are about participation in the inner, Triune life of God - the ongoing conversation between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit which proceeds from them.
Another two-word prayer which would be all sufficient: "Thank you!"
posted by jquinby at 8:36 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Long post time! If you're interested in a discussion of the whole prayer thing in which Jesus says you can ask but people don't necessarily get, there was an interesting theory about what that meant in the book "Cold Sassy Tree." I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a pretty good theory.
I'm a fan of When Bad Things Happen To Good People. The author's theory is that God is not omnipotent. God didn't want your three year old to get cancer or a tsunami to take out an entire island--he just couldn't do anything about it. That makes me feel a lot better about how things go, to be honest. God's not cruel, not neglectful, not a kid with an ant farm. What if God was one of us, I guess: even God can only do so much. A lot of people pray for cancer to be cured, but not everybody gets that cure. Maybe some bodies/biology are way more cooperative with that and God than others, perhaps.
My theory is that for whatever reason, God can only work partially, through the cracks of the world. If you've ever read the Five Gods books by Lois McMaster Bujold, it's spelled out that the gods can only do their work through willing human helpers. In the second book, when a grieving mother asks "why didn't you save my son?" the god she's working with says that his brother sent several people to help her son, but all of them fell through. It's pretty clear in this series that the only reason these miracles happen in these books is that there was a willing person to work with the god and take on a whole lot of weird magical shit in order to work together to solve the problems. Something within the world has to be cooperating in order for something to happen.
So here's my experience with prayer: it's easier to get little stuff than big stuff. Years ago I did some kind of manifestation experiment after reading about the "blue feather" thing. Which works, btw, I keep finding the things to this day. I used to count them all and stopped somewhere after a thousand :P I made a list of 30 small things and decided to add one a day to the list to ask for--and then had to kinda slow it down because that was hard to keep track of. I did end up manifesting probably around 2/3-3/4 of the list. The funny thing is when I tried to "game the system," it didn't quite go as I thought. For example, I asked for a copy of the New York Times. This was because I knew at my college, if you took Poli Sci 1 you had to get a subscription to it for the class and I figured "hey, someone will leave one on a table or something." LOLNOPE, I got a spam email with a fake New York Times page in it and my name blazoned across the top. I asked for a flower and someone handed me one at work the next day. You never quite know how stuff like that may go.
In more recent years, I've gotten pretty good results with saints. I don't like Catholicism, but sometimes after praying to St. Anthony I have found lost things again. Not all stuff, but some stuff. Prayers to St. Francis have helped other people get back their lost animals--I've seen lost animal posters come down after I put out a prayer that the animal get back home and I know of two cases IRL where that happened for sure. One friend's cat came back the next day and well, the other example is on Ask Metafilter :) In 2020, I put out a ongoing call to St. Genesius, patron saint of actors, to find me plays that I could be in that I'd like and that the people would want to cast me. There was about a few months around late 2020/early 2021 where nothing happened in the middle of that, but otherwise I've been pretty consistently in shows since. So that's worked really well.
What has NOT worked? Big prayers for big things. Praying for true love or a new job has not worked at all whatsoever for me. Why is that? Well, I think when there's prayers for "I want something," the other thing/person/whatever has to be looking for and wanting you as well, or you at least have to be able to encounter it. There's probably no jobs out there that want me and my particular set of skills and come with insurance and a reasonable paycheck, so that's not out there to find. Perhaps if I was willing to give up insurance and a reasonable paycheck I'd find a job I love to do every day, but I'm not, so here we are. That's the way our world works--what I value isn't what the world values. As for true love, there's nobody in my vicinity, or perhaps even the world, who wants to be with me that I would want to be with. This has frankly been too much to ask God for, apparently. Like yeah, maybe my timing's off ("divine timing" is A Thing with the hippie folks), but a lot of people can get love, just not me. I did pay a psychic (YES I KNOW THIS IS STUPID but so far she was half right) who said I'd meet someone within a year and gave specific details. This was early April 2021, so she's got a few months more to go, but so far things are not looking any different for me. I may politely give it to the end of 2022 on this since a friend of mine told me a psychic friend of hers (when asked on my behalf) said I'd be happy in love in 3 years, and that was asked at the end of 2019. But right now, things aren't looking different on that score. The most implausible thing was the psychic said the dude lives in my neighborhood and knows some people I do and we just somehow have never met yet, which I find hard to buy. It would seem more likely if the dude just moved here for a job in the future and wasn't here to find yet.
I agree with EmpressCallipygos on the whole prayer request thing. Another hippie thing is "this or something better." Like, you can ask for a specific thing if you want to, BUT maybe some other thing might solve the issue so you might want to leave the door open a bit for another option to come through. This isn't a prayer issue per se as far as I know, but a friend of mine doesn't have the most money in the world and living here is fairly expensive and after the latest rent raise, the friend came to the conclusion that she'd have to early retire and move far away to live somewhere cheaper where presumably she wouldn't have to keep moving every few years once a landlady decides to sell. For a year-ish, she and her husband were looking for places to live in that were pretty far away and the only ones she could afford had some unsuitable aspect to them, like being extremely hot or being a few hours away from a hospital. They insist on having a house and housing isn't going great right now. Nothing was working and she kept postponing the move and her lease would get extended by a few months more. What's the right prayer here: that she find the right location to move to? That she finds somewhere she can afford? In the end, the situation was resolved by the landlady saying, "Never mind, I'm not going to raise the rent that much after all so I can keep you two as tenants." HUZZAH!!!! Who the hell hears of THAT happening?! THAT solved the problem far more easily than anything else did.
Welp, that's all I can think of with regards to my experiments with prayer. Hope you got some thoughts and insights out of it, if that helps you any.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:54 AM on January 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm a fan of When Bad Things Happen To Good People. The author's theory is that God is not omnipotent. God didn't want your three year old to get cancer or a tsunami to take out an entire island--he just couldn't do anything about it. That makes me feel a lot better about how things go, to be honest. God's not cruel, not neglectful, not a kid with an ant farm. What if God was one of us, I guess: even God can only do so much. A lot of people pray for cancer to be cured, but not everybody gets that cure. Maybe some bodies/biology are way more cooperative with that and God than others, perhaps.
My theory is that for whatever reason, God can only work partially, through the cracks of the world. If you've ever read the Five Gods books by Lois McMaster Bujold, it's spelled out that the gods can only do their work through willing human helpers. In the second book, when a grieving mother asks "why didn't you save my son?" the god she's working with says that his brother sent several people to help her son, but all of them fell through. It's pretty clear in this series that the only reason these miracles happen in these books is that there was a willing person to work with the god and take on a whole lot of weird magical shit in order to work together to solve the problems. Something within the world has to be cooperating in order for something to happen.
So here's my experience with prayer: it's easier to get little stuff than big stuff. Years ago I did some kind of manifestation experiment after reading about the "blue feather" thing. Which works, btw, I keep finding the things to this day. I used to count them all and stopped somewhere after a thousand :P I made a list of 30 small things and decided to add one a day to the list to ask for--and then had to kinda slow it down because that was hard to keep track of. I did end up manifesting probably around 2/3-3/4 of the list. The funny thing is when I tried to "game the system," it didn't quite go as I thought. For example, I asked for a copy of the New York Times. This was because I knew at my college, if you took Poli Sci 1 you had to get a subscription to it for the class and I figured "hey, someone will leave one on a table or something." LOLNOPE, I got a spam email with a fake New York Times page in it and my name blazoned across the top. I asked for a flower and someone handed me one at work the next day. You never quite know how stuff like that may go.
In more recent years, I've gotten pretty good results with saints. I don't like Catholicism, but sometimes after praying to St. Anthony I have found lost things again. Not all stuff, but some stuff. Prayers to St. Francis have helped other people get back their lost animals--I've seen lost animal posters come down after I put out a prayer that the animal get back home and I know of two cases IRL where that happened for sure. One friend's cat came back the next day and well, the other example is on Ask Metafilter :) In 2020, I put out a ongoing call to St. Genesius, patron saint of actors, to find me plays that I could be in that I'd like and that the people would want to cast me. There was about a few months around late 2020/early 2021 where nothing happened in the middle of that, but otherwise I've been pretty consistently in shows since. So that's worked really well.
What has NOT worked? Big prayers for big things. Praying for true love or a new job has not worked at all whatsoever for me. Why is that? Well, I think when there's prayers for "I want something," the other thing/person/whatever has to be looking for and wanting you as well, or you at least have to be able to encounter it. There's probably no jobs out there that want me and my particular set of skills and come with insurance and a reasonable paycheck, so that's not out there to find. Perhaps if I was willing to give up insurance and a reasonable paycheck I'd find a job I love to do every day, but I'm not, so here we are. That's the way our world works--what I value isn't what the world values. As for true love, there's nobody in my vicinity, or perhaps even the world, who wants to be with me that I would want to be with. This has frankly been too much to ask God for, apparently. Like yeah, maybe my timing's off ("divine timing" is A Thing with the hippie folks), but a lot of people can get love, just not me. I did pay a psychic (YES I KNOW THIS IS STUPID but so far she was half right) who said I'd meet someone within a year and gave specific details. This was early April 2021, so she's got a few months more to go, but so far things are not looking any different for me. I may politely give it to the end of 2022 on this since a friend of mine told me a psychic friend of hers (when asked on my behalf) said I'd be happy in love in 3 years, and that was asked at the end of 2019. But right now, things aren't looking different on that score. The most implausible thing was the psychic said the dude lives in my neighborhood and knows some people I do and we just somehow have never met yet, which I find hard to buy. It would seem more likely if the dude just moved here for a job in the future and wasn't here to find yet.
I agree with EmpressCallipygos on the whole prayer request thing. Another hippie thing is "this or something better." Like, you can ask for a specific thing if you want to, BUT maybe some other thing might solve the issue so you might want to leave the door open a bit for another option to come through. This isn't a prayer issue per se as far as I know, but a friend of mine doesn't have the most money in the world and living here is fairly expensive and after the latest rent raise, the friend came to the conclusion that she'd have to early retire and move far away to live somewhere cheaper where presumably she wouldn't have to keep moving every few years once a landlady decides to sell. For a year-ish, she and her husband were looking for places to live in that were pretty far away and the only ones she could afford had some unsuitable aspect to them, like being extremely hot or being a few hours away from a hospital. They insist on having a house and housing isn't going great right now. Nothing was working and she kept postponing the move and her lease would get extended by a few months more. What's the right prayer here: that she find the right location to move to? That she finds somewhere she can afford? In the end, the situation was resolved by the landlady saying, "Never mind, I'm not going to raise the rent that much after all so I can keep you two as tenants." HUZZAH!!!! Who the hell hears of THAT happening?! THAT solved the problem far more easily than anything else did.
Welp, that's all I can think of with regards to my experiments with prayer. Hope you got some thoughts and insights out of it, if that helps you any.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:54 AM on January 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not all of us who pray are monotheists.
I pray because the gods are worthy, and virtuous, and awe-inspiring, and worshiping them helps me re-align my thoughts, behaviors, and values in ways that I think are worthy and virtuous. I ask them for help sometimes because I am working on being vulnerable enough to ask for help and to admit that I can't do everything on my own, so it's good practice regardless of outcome, and because I do think they are able to nudge the universe if my need corresponds with their will. I also believe "universe nudging" is possible in a variety of ways, and that focusing attention and energy on something, with or without divine intervention, is one of those ways.
posted by lapis at 10:07 AM on January 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I pray because the gods are worthy, and virtuous, and awe-inspiring, and worshiping them helps me re-align my thoughts, behaviors, and values in ways that I think are worthy and virtuous. I ask them for help sometimes because I am working on being vulnerable enough to ask for help and to admit that I can't do everything on my own, so it's good practice regardless of outcome, and because I do think they are able to nudge the universe if my need corresponds with their will. I also believe "universe nudging" is possible in a variety of ways, and that focusing attention and energy on something, with or without divine intervention, is one of those ways.
posted by lapis at 10:07 AM on January 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
As a formerly religious person I think it's a lot like voting in a democracy? You don't really get any direct evidence that your voice is heard most of the time, just have to take that on faith, and sometimes things don't go how you hoped, but you're given an avenue to express yourself to the Big Guy - you probably should take it. Not only to ask for things you need but also to demonstrate your belief that there is a system and that system is working for you.
Plus a lot of prayer isn't asking for stuff? It's telling the Big Guy how rad and special Their works are and how happy you are to be a part of the project, which is just a gratitude practice with an audience. And sometimes it's also committing to plans of self-improvement in the hearing of an authority figure. Prayer serves many purposes.
posted by potrzebie at 10:16 AM on January 15, 2022
Plus a lot of prayer isn't asking for stuff? It's telling the Big Guy how rad and special Their works are and how happy you are to be a part of the project, which is just a gratitude practice with an audience. And sometimes it's also committing to plans of self-improvement in the hearing of an authority figure. Prayer serves many purposes.
posted by potrzebie at 10:16 AM on January 15, 2022
Speaking as a very much lapsed mainstream Protestant (I still believe, but do not practice), a great example of how prayer can change God's mind is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 19 (never mind the unlikely historical background here; it's an illustration). God is determined to destroy the two cities for their sins. The two angels tasked with the destruction stop off at Lot's house. He doesn't want the city destroyed (it's his home, after all), and actually bargains the angels, and therefore God, into leaving the city untouched if they can find as few as ten righteous men in it. They couldn't find ten, of course, and the story shows the cities being destroyed, with only Lot and his family escaping.
The point here is that, despite Calvinism, humans can pray and change God's mind. It doesn't always happen, but how will you know if you don't ask? Maybe God actually answers prayers, maybe he doesn't.
I often think one of the reasons for prayer is to get us to see our helplessness in the face of nature and chance, to put forth our best efforts, and acknowledge we're doing or have done all we can and have no more control to exert.
posted by lhauser at 11:00 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The point here is that, despite Calvinism, humans can pray and change God's mind. It doesn't always happen, but how will you know if you don't ask? Maybe God actually answers prayers, maybe he doesn't.
I often think one of the reasons for prayer is to get us to see our helplessness in the face of nature and chance, to put forth our best efforts, and acknowledge we're doing or have done all we can and have no more control to exert.
posted by lhauser at 11:00 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a vaguely spiritual millennial, I think my practice of prayer is supported by a fuzzy belief in panpsychism, the observer effect in quantum mechanics, and belief in manifestation/the law of attraction (without trying to determine if the results come externally or from the internal change in my own thinking/actions as a result of my prayer). I would say I don't pray to [a] god, but to/in dialogue with The Universe. I believe that the universe is conscious and sentient and that yes, I can shape how it unfolds (we unfold, that is - we're just "the universe experiencing itself") with my words, thoughts, hopes, desires (and of course actions). This is reinforced by my own experience - I think I have successfully manifested things I have asked for, intentionally or unintentionally, and both bad and good.
posted by amaire at 11:31 AM on January 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by amaire at 11:31 AM on January 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also raised reform Jewish, but on the more religious side. I echo All might be well. Prayer to me is about tradition and connection. I was taught that prayer is about: praising god, thanking god, acknowledging vid is the only god, remembering the great stuff god did in the past, praising again, requesting personal through silent prayer, requesting community stuff out loud: “peace on earth”, etc, more praise, remembering those who have died. Basically in that order. So most of what we pray for is not actual things.
I pray because it gives me comfort. I do it because my family has done it for generations, and I feel a sense of connection through that.
I hope this helps!
posted by Valancy Rachel at 11:55 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I pray because it gives me comfort. I do it because my family has done it for generations, and I feel a sense of connection through that.
I hope this helps!
posted by Valancy Rachel at 11:55 AM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
You might also be interested as a historical perspective in this series of blog posts about how polytheistic beliefs worked in the ancient (esp. Greco-Roman) world.
posted by Superilla at 2:01 PM on January 15, 2022
posted by Superilla at 2:01 PM on January 15, 2022
I think prayer means many things to many people of many religious traditions and faith practices. Retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong had some interesting things to say about this in his famous Twelve Theses:
posted by slkinsey at 2:17 PM on January 15, 2022
1. GodImplicit in the combination of these two theses is the understanding that the purpose and efficacy of prayer has to change for people of faith with a contemporary view of the universe. This is not to say that it’s worthless or no longer needed, as it can absolutely be a way of affirming belief and connecting with the Unknowable Other, but rather that it’s not particularly helpful to think of it as a request or statement made to a supernatural being that may or may not result in assistance or interference in our existence.
Understanding God in theistic categories as “a being, supernatural in power, dwelling somewhere external to the world and capable of invading the world with miraculous power” is no longer believable. Most God talk in liturgy and conversation has thus become meaningless.
…
10. Prayer
Prayer, understood as a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history, is little more than an hysterical attempt to turn the holy into the servant of the human. Most of our prayer definitions of the past are thus dependent on an understanding of God that has died.
posted by slkinsey at 2:17 PM on January 15, 2022
St. Thomas Aquinas has a clarifying and to me surprising answer (below), and what I take from it is that a person praying doesn’t change God (that would be silly) but that asking for things and acknowledging our state of dependence is the appointed means of receiving things that we are going (for whatever reason) to receive. Offered as evidence for what the traditional Catholic theological answer to this is.
“ There was [an] opinion of those who held that human affairs are indeed ruled by Divine providence, and that they do not happen of necessity; yet they deemed the disposition of Divine providence to be changeable, and that it is changed by prayers and other things pertaining to the worship of God. All these opinions were disproved [earlier in the work]. Wherefore it behooves us so to account for the utility of prayer as neither to impose necessity on human affairs subject to Divine providence, nor to imply changeableness on the part of the Divine disposition.
In order to throw light on this question we must consider that Divine providence disposes not only what effects shall take place, but also from what causes and in what order these effects shall proceed. Now among other causes human acts are the causes of certain effects. Wherefore it must be that men do certain actions not that thereby they may change the Divine disposition, but that by those actions they may achieve certain effects according to the order of the Divine disposition: and the same is to be said of natural causes. And so is it with regard to prayer. For we pray not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that we may impetrate that which God has disposed to be fulfilled by our prayers ...
We need to pray to God, not in order to make known to Him our needs or desires but that we ourselves may be reminded of the necessity of having recourse to God's help in these matters. ...
our motive in praying is, not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that, by our prayers, we may obtain what God has appointed. ...
God bestows many things on us out of His liberality, even without our asking for them: but that He wishes to bestow certain things on us at our asking, is for the sake of our good, namely, that we may acquire confidence in having recourse to God, and that we may recognize in Him the Author of our goods.”
posted by rustcellar at 5:53 PM on January 15, 2022
“ There was [an] opinion of those who held that human affairs are indeed ruled by Divine providence, and that they do not happen of necessity; yet they deemed the disposition of Divine providence to be changeable, and that it is changed by prayers and other things pertaining to the worship of God. All these opinions were disproved [earlier in the work]. Wherefore it behooves us so to account for the utility of prayer as neither to impose necessity on human affairs subject to Divine providence, nor to imply changeableness on the part of the Divine disposition.
In order to throw light on this question we must consider that Divine providence disposes not only what effects shall take place, but also from what causes and in what order these effects shall proceed. Now among other causes human acts are the causes of certain effects. Wherefore it must be that men do certain actions not that thereby they may change the Divine disposition, but that by those actions they may achieve certain effects according to the order of the Divine disposition: and the same is to be said of natural causes. And so is it with regard to prayer. For we pray not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that we may impetrate that which God has disposed to be fulfilled by our prayers ...
We need to pray to God, not in order to make known to Him our needs or desires but that we ourselves may be reminded of the necessity of having recourse to God's help in these matters. ...
our motive in praying is, not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that, by our prayers, we may obtain what God has appointed. ...
God bestows many things on us out of His liberality, even without our asking for them: but that He wishes to bestow certain things on us at our asking, is for the sake of our good, namely, that we may acquire confidence in having recourse to God, and that we may recognize in Him the Author of our goods.”
posted by rustcellar at 5:53 PM on January 15, 2022
My gut understanding, as someone who sometimes prays—I don't have any theology to back this up, it's just way I've found of doing it—is that you can pray for qualities you might want to have, but not for things to happen. I ask God for strength, calm, understanding, courage, or whatever. I don't ask them to change the weather, give me money, control other people's actions, or anything like that. At most, I'll say "God, I want this thing, please help me get it." But even then, I mean "Please help me be the kind of person who can get it"—help me be clever, focused, persistent, or whatever other quality I need in order to make it happen.
I also spend a lot of time just sort of... telling God how I feel. Not because I think they're going to change their mind. And not because I can hide anything from them. They see my feelings no matter what I do or don't say. Just because sometimes it's comforting to put it in my own words and have them listen. That counts as prayer too, and it's nice to do even if it doesn't affect the outcome of anything.
Wouldn't that mean that good things happen more to people who pray than to people who don't pray?
I don't assume that the person who prays most will win. Even if God does make me strong, calm, brave, clever, focused, persistent, etc., I might not get what I want. Having good qualities is never a guarantee you'll succeed. Sometimes your situation is just hopeless. Besides, other people who I might be in conflict with have lots of good qualities too, whether they pray or not. Maybe this is a situation where my-best-with-God-giving-me-courage is still not any match for your-best-with-your-natural-abilities.
I also don't assume that any amount of prayer will make me better than anyone else. First off, let's be clear: everyone has inherent worth. Everyone counts. But even if we're talking about virtue or talent and not worth... well, I started out real fucking flawed—not even in an original sin way, just in an "I was a flaky unskilled jerk when I was younger" way. With my own hard work, and with God's help if they grant it, I can improve some. But there will absolutely always be people who don't have my flaws.
Why would God, who presumably knows everything and has a plan for everything, change those plans because some dude asks for it?
I don't need to know the answer to this question to pray, just like I don't need to know why electricity works to use my phone.
Honestly, too, the answer isn't going to affect my actions. If the answer is "God already knew you would pray for this," great, I'll pray for it. If it's "God is making you pray for it," great, I'll pray for it. If it's "This wasn't part of the plan, but God will change the plan if you pray for this," great, I'll pray for it. If it's "Sucks to be you, God will refuse to give this to you no matter how much you pray"... well, I don't know God's will in advance, so in this case I guess I'll pray for it and be disappointed.
For whatever it's worth, the book of Job says that we wouldn't understand God's plan even if they told it to us.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:52 PM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I also spend a lot of time just sort of... telling God how I feel. Not because I think they're going to change their mind. And not because I can hide anything from them. They see my feelings no matter what I do or don't say. Just because sometimes it's comforting to put it in my own words and have them listen. That counts as prayer too, and it's nice to do even if it doesn't affect the outcome of anything.
Wouldn't that mean that good things happen more to people who pray than to people who don't pray?
I don't assume that the person who prays most will win. Even if God does make me strong, calm, brave, clever, focused, persistent, etc., I might not get what I want. Having good qualities is never a guarantee you'll succeed. Sometimes your situation is just hopeless. Besides, other people who I might be in conflict with have lots of good qualities too, whether they pray or not. Maybe this is a situation where my-best-with-God-giving-me-courage is still not any match for your-best-with-your-natural-abilities.
I also don't assume that any amount of prayer will make me better than anyone else. First off, let's be clear: everyone has inherent worth. Everyone counts. But even if we're talking about virtue or talent and not worth... well, I started out real fucking flawed—not even in an original sin way, just in an "I was a flaky unskilled jerk when I was younger" way. With my own hard work, and with God's help if they grant it, I can improve some. But there will absolutely always be people who don't have my flaws.
Why would God, who presumably knows everything and has a plan for everything, change those plans because some dude asks for it?
I don't need to know the answer to this question to pray, just like I don't need to know why electricity works to use my phone.
Honestly, too, the answer isn't going to affect my actions. If the answer is "God already knew you would pray for this," great, I'll pray for it. If it's "God is making you pray for it," great, I'll pray for it. If it's "This wasn't part of the plan, but God will change the plan if you pray for this," great, I'll pray for it. If it's "Sucks to be you, God will refuse to give this to you no matter how much you pray"... well, I don't know God's will in advance, so in this case I guess I'll pray for it and be disappointed.
For whatever it's worth, the book of Job says that we wouldn't understand God's plan even if they told it to us.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:52 PM on January 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
that you can pray for qualities you might want to have, but not for things to happen.
Yup, that's the Cold Sassy theory. Sadly for me, I've gotten more things than I have gotten praying for qualities. "Dear God, please turn me into the perfect service person who likes helping people and is naturally cheerful about it" has NOT worked, alas.
YMMV, of course.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:48 PM on January 15, 2022
Yup, that's the Cold Sassy theory. Sadly for me, I've gotten more things than I have gotten praying for qualities. "Dear God, please turn me into the perfect service person who likes helping people and is naturally cheerful about it" has NOT worked, alas.
YMMV, of course.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:48 PM on January 15, 2022
I feel uneasy asking for outcomes, I do however present (or focus on) issues and reliably receive guidance on them. For example, a person close to me was sick, I felt very uneasy asking for them to get well — the words that showed up for me were, ‘may they have an easy path, wherever it may lead them.’ The prayer worked, for what it’s worth.
As a general thought, I do not experience prayer as a communication or petitioning from me towards a higher power — emotionally, it feels more like a deep certainty of abundant love and belonging. Thus when I connect spiritually I do not need to ask for anything but can rest in the knowledge that I am loved unconditionally & provided for. I also do not need to seek gratitude in that moment — it’s all-dominant. I’m a sarcastic, negative person who doesn’t use words like ‘love’ and ‘gratitude’ in everyday life, but in prayer I don’t have to seek them out — they come and find me. Hope this helps.
posted by The Toad at 9:12 PM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
As a general thought, I do not experience prayer as a communication or petitioning from me towards a higher power — emotionally, it feels more like a deep certainty of abundant love and belonging. Thus when I connect spiritually I do not need to ask for anything but can rest in the knowledge that I am loved unconditionally & provided for. I also do not need to seek gratitude in that moment — it’s all-dominant. I’m a sarcastic, negative person who doesn’t use words like ‘love’ and ‘gratitude’ in everyday life, but in prayer I don’t have to seek them out — they come and find me. Hope this helps.
posted by The Toad at 9:12 PM on January 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've seen in myself and in many believers I know that our understanding changes as we mature.
As kids, we prayed for As on tests and snow days the same way we asked Santa Claus for gifts. We thought we'd get what we asked for if we were good. But as you get a little life experience, you start seeing the inequality in what different people receive as gifts (from Santa or from God) that has nothing to do with their worthiness. You ask for something really important, and you really believe, and it doesn't happen. That way of understanding how prayer works, or maybe belief altogether breaks down.
The analogy that comes to mind for me now is that prayers where I ask for things are like saying "please let there be pizza for lunch." It's ok to express my wishes. Being a believer means I feel heard. But the cafeteria has already made their plan. Maybe it's pizza day (thank you!), and maybe it isn't (God's will, not mine). If I find that what I'm asking for isn't being given, then it's time to consider whether it's wiser to accept the things I cannot change (thank you for chicken fingers) or change the things I can (go home and make my own pizza).
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 7:05 AM on January 16, 2022
As kids, we prayed for As on tests and snow days the same way we asked Santa Claus for gifts. We thought we'd get what we asked for if we were good. But as you get a little life experience, you start seeing the inequality in what different people receive as gifts (from Santa or from God) that has nothing to do with their worthiness. You ask for something really important, and you really believe, and it doesn't happen. That way of understanding how prayer works, or maybe belief altogether breaks down.
The analogy that comes to mind for me now is that prayers where I ask for things are like saying "please let there be pizza for lunch." It's ok to express my wishes. Being a believer means I feel heard. But the cafeteria has already made their plan. Maybe it's pizza day (thank you!), and maybe it isn't (God's will, not mine). If I find that what I'm asking for isn't being given, then it's time to consider whether it's wiser to accept the things I cannot change (thank you for chicken fingers) or change the things I can (go home and make my own pizza).
posted by Former Congressional Representative Lenny Lemming at 7:05 AM on January 16, 2022
Prayer is weird, complicated, and (as this thread has shown) highly individualistic. I started praying after I got sober, because people in the 12 step program I was in recommended it. My life was an absolute wreck, I was miserable... I barely felt like a real human being a lot of the time. In the midst of that, I found some people I trusted -- people who were sober and happy with their lives -- who were trying to practice and develop their spirituality, said it was important to their continuing sobriety, and suggested I try the same. So I did! For a while my head would scream at me that this was insane cultist bullshit, that I was praying to an empty room and an empty universe. But I went ahead and tried to pray anyway because (a) I trusted the experience of my sober friends, (b) I figured it was a zero-risk activity, and (c) my terrible behavior had convinced me that I was doing a very bad job trying to run my life all by myself.
For me, the absolutely critical element of my prayer is the difference between "God, please rearrange circumstances to give me something I think I want" and "God, please rearrange me and my attitude so I can meet my circumstances with grace and stop worrying about myself so much." That reflects the difference between my old conception of God as an eternally tight-fisted Santa Claus and my newer conception of God, who is pretty close to the Amitabha Buddha described in Shin Buddhism. (And yes, I did go God-shopping! I read books from different spiritual traditions to try to find a conception of God that I trusted, that made sense to me.)
You said, "What I don't understand is the idea that praying for something might cause that thing to happen, that wouldn't've happened if you didn't pray." It depends on what I am asking for. If I am asking God to please let me get my grant application accepted, or to please get this person to like me, or to get me out of this jam, then I am asking God to change the world around me, which I think is a pretty unsatisfying way to pray. On the other hand, if I am asking God to help me accept a difficult situation, or to help me feel my feelings (something I have a lot of trouble with), or to remind me to be grateful for the good things in my life, then I am asking God to help change something inside of me. This is the kind of prayer that makes sense to me.
posted by cubeb at 7:16 AM on January 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
For me, the absolutely critical element of my prayer is the difference between "God, please rearrange circumstances to give me something I think I want" and "God, please rearrange me and my attitude so I can meet my circumstances with grace and stop worrying about myself so much." That reflects the difference between my old conception of God as an eternally tight-fisted Santa Claus and my newer conception of God, who is pretty close to the Amitabha Buddha described in Shin Buddhism. (And yes, I did go God-shopping! I read books from different spiritual traditions to try to find a conception of God that I trusted, that made sense to me.)
You said, "What I don't understand is the idea that praying for something might cause that thing to happen, that wouldn't've happened if you didn't pray." It depends on what I am asking for. If I am asking God to please let me get my grant application accepted, or to please get this person to like me, or to get me out of this jam, then I am asking God to change the world around me, which I think is a pretty unsatisfying way to pray. On the other hand, if I am asking God to help me accept a difficult situation, or to help me feel my feelings (something I have a lot of trouble with), or to remind me to be grateful for the good things in my life, then I am asking God to help change something inside of me. This is the kind of prayer that makes sense to me.
posted by cubeb at 7:16 AM on January 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Another thing I often pray for is... not to change God's plan, but to align myself with it a bit better. "Help me understand what You want," or "Help me see other people the way You see them," or "Help me be an instrument of Your love in the world."
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:57 AM on January 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:57 AM on January 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
Among other times, I sing hymns and prayers when I'm sick (I have a couple of chronic health conditions). I am comforted knowing that we will not always live in broken bodies. Singing in bed restores my soul.
posted by manageyourexpectations at 11:17 AM on January 16, 2022
posted by manageyourexpectations at 11:17 AM on January 16, 2022
From the Biblical standpoint there is a lot of discussion of prayer and its purpose.
Some of the most popular verses on the subject:
posted by theorique at 1:22 PM on January 16, 2022
Some of the most popular verses on the subject:
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (Phillippians 4:6-7)
Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18)Just today in his sermon, our pastor described prayer as a continuous dialogue between the believer with God, which I thought was a nice way to put it.
posted by theorique at 1:22 PM on January 16, 2022
As a lapsed catholic, I think the best answer was when Jesus’s disciples asked him him how to pray. He gave them the “Our Father.”
In sum, it praises the Father, accepts that His will be done, asks that your basic needs be met (daily bread), asks forgiveness for shortcomings, and commits to being more forgiving yourself.
It’s my favorite thing from that tradition.
posted by sjswitzer at 7:03 PM on January 16, 2022
In sum, it praises the Father, accepts that His will be done, asks that your basic needs be met (daily bread), asks forgiveness for shortcomings, and commits to being more forgiving yourself.
It’s my favorite thing from that tradition.
posted by sjswitzer at 7:03 PM on January 16, 2022
I was raised Roman Catholic, became agnostic in my teenage years. I'm still agnostic, but due to some events later in life I started to feel a strong attraction towards the Eastern Rite (Eastern Catholicism/Orthodox Churches). I pray when I feel the need. I only pray the Jesus prayer by repeating it as many times as I see fit.
I have no theory how it works - though I could read up on the theology. I just feel the need, pray, then go on with my life. Hope this helps.
posted by kmt at 5:00 AM on January 17, 2022
I have no theory how it works - though I could read up on the theology. I just feel the need, pray, then go on with my life. Hope this helps.
posted by kmt at 5:00 AM on January 17, 2022
Like lapis above, I'm not a monotheist.
I pray because prayer is a way to form and maintain a relationship with the gods (and other beings). Because I have that relationship, sometimes I ask for help when I need it. I don't believe the gods are omnipotent or omniscient, but they're more powerful than me and sometimes are willing to help me out.
However, I don't often make requests in prayer - prayer for me is more about setting aside time for beings I want to have a strong relationship with (because they are virtuous and very great and spending time with them is a worthwhile thing to do), and taking time to speak but mostly to listen.
posted by darchildre at 10:56 AM on January 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I pray because prayer is a way to form and maintain a relationship with the gods (and other beings). Because I have that relationship, sometimes I ask for help when I need it. I don't believe the gods are omnipotent or omniscient, but they're more powerful than me and sometimes are willing to help me out.
However, I don't often make requests in prayer - prayer for me is more about setting aside time for beings I want to have a strong relationship with (because they are virtuous and very great and spending time with them is a worthwhile thing to do), and taking time to speak but mostly to listen.
posted by darchildre at 10:56 AM on January 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
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