Who was watching out for Woody Norman?
December 29, 2021 3:58 PM Subscribe
Content Note: discussion of child sexual and emotional abuse, child endangerment, trauma.
Also contains spoilers for the 2021 film C'mon C'mon.
My partner and I just watched the new movie C'mon C'mon. I have some concerns about the safety of its child star, and by extension, child actors in general. If you loved the film, this question might bum you out. I'm sorry. I promise I am not a concern troll. I would also like to emphasize that I have no reason to suspect, nor am I implying with this question, any wrongdoing on the part of Mike Mills, the cast, or anyone else involved with the film.
For those unfamiliar with the premise: the film is about a childless middle-aged man (Joaquin Phoenix) who unexpectedly takes on the care of his 9-year old nephew (Woody Norman.) He and his nephew's mom, (Gaby Hoffman) are estranged, but after Phoenix's character reaches out, his sister has an emergency with her husband, who is undergoing a mental health crisis in another state. She asks her brother to take her son for what is supposed to be a short visit but turns into an extended guardianship.
One of the major themes of C'mon C'mon is how Johnny, the uncle, and Jesse, the nephew, gradually get to know each other and build love, trust, and intimacy. In the story, this is an organic process marked by understandable missteps, and intuitive, sublime leaps forward. In real life, Phoenix and Norman are both professional actors expected to follow what I assume is a tightly mapped production schedule. In the story, Johnny does his best, although not always successfully, to allow Jesse to lead the dance in establishing their closeness. In life, if Phoenix and Norman are unable to develop, or convincingly simulate a warm and natural bond during the shoot, the production might fall apart and everyone involved might lose money. There's a lot at stake.
There is a lot of touching in C'mon C'mon. This makes perfect sense in the story. Most young children need and thrive on healthy touch from their caregivers! In life, real kid Woody was regularly put in situations where he and/or Phoenix, a powerful adult coworker, were in close physical contact. Phoenix frequently touched his arm, played with his hair, or picked him up. Woody, meanwhile, hugs Phoenix, rests his head on his chest, and gets up close in his face with his own. Often one or both were in a state of undress.
As the very young star of the show, Woody must have been under a great deal of pressure to go along with whatever was required of him. And what was required of him was a lot of physical intimacy with a powerful, well-respected adult he hadn't known long. It seems to me that no matter how kind and well-intentioned the cast and crew, he could have been in very uncomfortable situations that he felt he couldn't refuse to participate in. Which brings me to my question: what safety measures, if any, would have been in place to protect Woody during this process, not just physically, but psychologically and emotionally?
In researching this question, I found this harrowing op ed by former child star Alyson Stoner. After an audition in which she, at 6, was told to perform a kidnapping and rape scene. After this, she writes: "I remain catatonic on the first half of the drive, until I remember we're en route to a second audition for a princess toy ad. On the spot, I manually alter my mood, personality and outfit so I can win over a new stranger with a camcorder. I need to outperform 900 other candidates. Suddenly, I'm "Smiling Girl #437." As an adult recalling this experience, she advocates for the following: "One immediate solution is having a qualified, third-party mental health professional on every set, especially if minors are present. Think "school counselor" or "sports psychologist." They can help monitor working conditions and be available to assist entertainers in regulating, shifting between identities and discharging residual inner turbulence after emotional performances. They can provide a safe space for people to anonymously report misconduct, harassment and mental health struggles." From this it sounds like having an on set therapist for kids is currently fully optional. Is there any way to know if there was any kind of advocate on set for Woody?
I would like to clarify that I am not looking for speculation into Woody Norman's actual on-set experience, his maturity level, etc. I did find some interviews and he comes across as a grounded kid who had a good experience on set. Which is awesome, and I hope with all my heart that acting in C'mon C'mon was a safe, enriching, joyful time that Woody will happily look back on! At the same time, I feel like I just watched a high-wire act and no idea if there was a safety net. Was there a net?
My partner and I just watched the new movie C'mon C'mon. I have some concerns about the safety of its child star, and by extension, child actors in general. If you loved the film, this question might bum you out. I'm sorry. I promise I am not a concern troll. I would also like to emphasize that I have no reason to suspect, nor am I implying with this question, any wrongdoing on the part of Mike Mills, the cast, or anyone else involved with the film.
For those unfamiliar with the premise: the film is about a childless middle-aged man (Joaquin Phoenix) who unexpectedly takes on the care of his 9-year old nephew (Woody Norman.) He and his nephew's mom, (Gaby Hoffman) are estranged, but after Phoenix's character reaches out, his sister has an emergency with her husband, who is undergoing a mental health crisis in another state. She asks her brother to take her son for what is supposed to be a short visit but turns into an extended guardianship.
One of the major themes of C'mon C'mon is how Johnny, the uncle, and Jesse, the nephew, gradually get to know each other and build love, trust, and intimacy. In the story, this is an organic process marked by understandable missteps, and intuitive, sublime leaps forward. In real life, Phoenix and Norman are both professional actors expected to follow what I assume is a tightly mapped production schedule. In the story, Johnny does his best, although not always successfully, to allow Jesse to lead the dance in establishing their closeness. In life, if Phoenix and Norman are unable to develop, or convincingly simulate a warm and natural bond during the shoot, the production might fall apart and everyone involved might lose money. There's a lot at stake.
There is a lot of touching in C'mon C'mon. This makes perfect sense in the story. Most young children need and thrive on healthy touch from their caregivers! In life, real kid Woody was regularly put in situations where he and/or Phoenix, a powerful adult coworker, were in close physical contact. Phoenix frequently touched his arm, played with his hair, or picked him up. Woody, meanwhile, hugs Phoenix, rests his head on his chest, and gets up close in his face with his own. Often one or both were in a state of undress.
As the very young star of the show, Woody must have been under a great deal of pressure to go along with whatever was required of him. And what was required of him was a lot of physical intimacy with a powerful, well-respected adult he hadn't known long. It seems to me that no matter how kind and well-intentioned the cast and crew, he could have been in very uncomfortable situations that he felt he couldn't refuse to participate in. Which brings me to my question: what safety measures, if any, would have been in place to protect Woody during this process, not just physically, but psychologically and emotionally?
In researching this question, I found this harrowing op ed by former child star Alyson Stoner. After an audition in which she, at 6, was told to perform a kidnapping and rape scene. After this, she writes: "I remain catatonic on the first half of the drive, until I remember we're en route to a second audition for a princess toy ad. On the spot, I manually alter my mood, personality and outfit so I can win over a new stranger with a camcorder. I need to outperform 900 other candidates. Suddenly, I'm "Smiling Girl #437." As an adult recalling this experience, she advocates for the following: "One immediate solution is having a qualified, third-party mental health professional on every set, especially if minors are present. Think "school counselor" or "sports psychologist." They can help monitor working conditions and be available to assist entertainers in regulating, shifting between identities and discharging residual inner turbulence after emotional performances. They can provide a safe space for people to anonymously report misconduct, harassment and mental health struggles." From this it sounds like having an on set therapist for kids is currently fully optional. Is there any way to know if there was any kind of advocate on set for Woody?
I would like to clarify that I am not looking for speculation into Woody Norman's actual on-set experience, his maturity level, etc. I did find some interviews and he comes across as a grounded kid who had a good experience on set. Which is awesome, and I hope with all my heart that acting in C'mon C'mon was a safe, enriching, joyful time that Woody will happily look back on! At the same time, I feel like I just watched a high-wire act and no idea if there was a safety net. Was there a net?
Best answer: I work in film and have worked with child actors. Here are some observations -
Creepy stuff ABSOLUTELY happens on set with minors. Less now than in past decades, but people are people and some are creeps.
The adult and child actors usually have rehearsal time set apart to hang out and bond organically to some extent.
There is often (esp. post MeToo) an Intimacy coordinator who helps choreograph the scenes were the characters touch each other a lot- “put your head here, put your hand here, then separate on this line, etc”, so the scene feels a bit more like a dance, which lessens the intimacy a bit.
There are a usually a lot of people present on set while shooting. At the very least there is the camera operator for super intimate scenes in small places. On a big set there are likely 3-30 other people in the same room. That also lessens the intimacy.
The child’s parents or parent-selected chaperone is present... Although that doesn’t always mean that the child is safe. Often the chaperone is the one who’s most impressed by the famous people on set, so they are too starstruck to advocate for the child the way they should. Or the parents may not have a ton of experience on other sets so they don’t necessarily know what is standard.
And the parents are usually not in the same room as the child when the actual shooting is happening. The child goes back to sit with the parent between setups, but when the child is actually on set shooting, the parent isn’t in that room. Parents telegraph a lot of expectation at performing children so the kids tend to look to their parents for approval and it creates a barrier between the child and the director and makes the performance worse.
If the scene is really intense, the child may not be present for the most intense parts, like an adult actor’s screaming close up is likely shot with the adult screaming at an adult stand-in or a tennis ball on a stick. This is particularly true for horror movies with intensely gory scenes - often the child actor does not see the most aggressive and disturbing parts of the adults’ behaviour.
Child actors are usually way more mature than non actors. They are often people pleasers under a composed demeanour (rarely are they obviously fawning) so they seem very adult, because that is what is expected of them. And they usually understand some of the movie magic that they are taking part in. But they are still children, and to be honest, this factor can be overlooked by the adults around them.
Usually the adult and child actors do form a very close bond, especially on long running TV shows or films where they are together a lot. This can lead to weird dynamics, but can also lead to genuine closeness.
I am friends with a well-known former child actor who has written publicly about some of the freaky stuff that happened to her on sets. I find it telling that she absolutely refuses to let her own daughter of that age become an actress.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:42 PM on December 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
Creepy stuff ABSOLUTELY happens on set with minors. Less now than in past decades, but people are people and some are creeps.
The adult and child actors usually have rehearsal time set apart to hang out and bond organically to some extent.
There is often (esp. post MeToo) an Intimacy coordinator who helps choreograph the scenes were the characters touch each other a lot- “put your head here, put your hand here, then separate on this line, etc”, so the scene feels a bit more like a dance, which lessens the intimacy a bit.
There are a usually a lot of people present on set while shooting. At the very least there is the camera operator for super intimate scenes in small places. On a big set there are likely 3-30 other people in the same room. That also lessens the intimacy.
The child’s parents or parent-selected chaperone is present... Although that doesn’t always mean that the child is safe. Often the chaperone is the one who’s most impressed by the famous people on set, so they are too starstruck to advocate for the child the way they should. Or the parents may not have a ton of experience on other sets so they don’t necessarily know what is standard.
And the parents are usually not in the same room as the child when the actual shooting is happening. The child goes back to sit with the parent between setups, but when the child is actually on set shooting, the parent isn’t in that room. Parents telegraph a lot of expectation at performing children so the kids tend to look to their parents for approval and it creates a barrier between the child and the director and makes the performance worse.
If the scene is really intense, the child may not be present for the most intense parts, like an adult actor’s screaming close up is likely shot with the adult screaming at an adult stand-in or a tennis ball on a stick. This is particularly true for horror movies with intensely gory scenes - often the child actor does not see the most aggressive and disturbing parts of the adults’ behaviour.
Child actors are usually way more mature than non actors. They are often people pleasers under a composed demeanour (rarely are they obviously fawning) so they seem very adult, because that is what is expected of them. And they usually understand some of the movie magic that they are taking part in. But they are still children, and to be honest, this factor can be overlooked by the adults around them.
Usually the adult and child actors do form a very close bond, especially on long running TV shows or films where they are together a lot. This can lead to weird dynamics, but can also lead to genuine closeness.
I am friends with a well-known former child actor who has written publicly about some of the freaky stuff that happened to her on sets. I find it telling that she absolutely refuses to let her own daughter of that age become an actress.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:42 PM on December 29, 2021 [9 favorites]
This is a very good question...
I've lived in Hollywood in a while, although I am not in the industry.
A therapist friend of mine made we aware of this in the early 90's after he watched Prince of the Tides and the rape scene of the young Nick Nolte character. "What are they doing to bring the kid out of this?"
I think it is very rare that this is a win-win situation.
To me, the fact that the parents are professionals or the eloquence or maturity of what the child actor says in magazines doesn't mean a lot
Child actors are usually way more mature than non actors. They are often people pleasers under a composed demeanour (rarely are they obviously fawning) so they seem very adult, because that is what is expected of them. And they usually understand some of the movie magic that they are taking part in. But they are still children, and to be honest, this factor can be overlooked by the adults around them.
In the late 80's, I, of age, openly dated a actress on a successful TV show who wasn't. One of the charms was that she did seem more adult than her age. It took me a few years after we broke up that to realize she wasn't. That was an act.
I think it is very rare that this is a win-win situation.
Even if the adult and child are professional, that does not mean equal. I would want a great deal of care, advocacy and attention brought to the scene.
posted by goalyeehah at 6:55 PM on December 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've lived in Hollywood in a while, although I am not in the industry.
A therapist friend of mine made we aware of this in the early 90's after he watched Prince of the Tides and the rape scene of the young Nick Nolte character. "What are they doing to bring the kid out of this?"
I think it is very rare that this is a win-win situation.
To me, the fact that the parents are professionals or the eloquence or maturity of what the child actor says in magazines doesn't mean a lot
Child actors are usually way more mature than non actors. They are often people pleasers under a composed demeanour (rarely are they obviously fawning) so they seem very adult, because that is what is expected of them. And they usually understand some of the movie magic that they are taking part in. But they are still children, and to be honest, this factor can be overlooked by the adults around them.
In the late 80's, I, of age, openly dated a actress on a successful TV show who wasn't. One of the charms was that she did seem more adult than her age. It took me a few years after we broke up that to realize she wasn't. That was an act.
I think it is very rare that this is a win-win situation.
Even if the adult and child are professional, that does not mean equal. I would want a great deal of care, advocacy and attention brought to the scene.
posted by goalyeehah at 6:55 PM on December 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
It was theater as opposed to film, but I worked once on a show which involved two children and some heavy material (it was an adaptation of MEDEA).
I can report that on paper, at least, there are some very strict rules in place when it comes to working with children. We had to have an official "chaperone" there for each and every performance, whose job it was to ensure the kids were safe and happy and copacetic. During the rehearsals, one of the kids' parents or guardians also had to be present. The kids also had a much shorter and easier rehearsal schedule.
This was a boon for me as the stage manager, too, because I didn't have to try to keep an eye on the kids on top of everything else. It also allowed for everyone to be relaxed enough that I ended up having one of those super-doofy conversations you sometime get into with a seven-year-old (we spent about 10 minutes or so debating the upcoming "Alien Vs. Predator" movie and who precisely would win).
I grant that the mere existence of rules does not necessarily guarantee that some people won't try to break those rules; but there is usually at least an effort and an intent to look after child performers' well-being.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 PM on December 29, 2021
I can report that on paper, at least, there are some very strict rules in place when it comes to working with children. We had to have an official "chaperone" there for each and every performance, whose job it was to ensure the kids were safe and happy and copacetic. During the rehearsals, one of the kids' parents or guardians also had to be present. The kids also had a much shorter and easier rehearsal schedule.
This was a boon for me as the stage manager, too, because I didn't have to try to keep an eye on the kids on top of everything else. It also allowed for everyone to be relaxed enough that I ended up having one of those super-doofy conversations you sometime get into with a seven-year-old (we spent about 10 minutes or so debating the upcoming "Alien Vs. Predator" movie and who precisely would win).
I grant that the mere existence of rules does not necessarily guarantee that some people won't try to break those rules; but there is usually at least an effort and an intent to look after child performers' well-being.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 PM on December 29, 2021
Response by poster: Thanks all! What typically happens and who is present on set is helpful to know. To clarify, the root of my concerns is not that the cast or crew of this production may have been actively abusive, (although that obviously can happen,) and more about what would happen if nine year old Woody woke up one morning during the shoot and felt uncomfortable about cuddling with Joaquin Phoenix, even if Phoenix was nothing but kind and professional and they had a good rapport. It is good to know that there were likely a lot of people around throughout the shoot. But it sounds like it likely not anyone's role on set to specifically check in on child actors' mental or emotional health, which is concerning to me. I appreciate everyone's insight into my question.
posted by prewar lemonade at 4:02 PM on January 3, 2022
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GQ interview
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