Talking with teenagers about existential angst
October 18, 2021 6:42 AM Subscribe
My daughter is back in real life high school, and she's not loving it. In fact, she hates it, but not for specific reasons - just because it existentially sucks. How would you parent this?
I'd love to get your thoughts on how to be a good parent / support for my daughter as she deals with what seems to be a pretty consistent dislike of going to and attending high school. She is a junior now, is back in school after the pandemic interruption that began in the spring of her freshman year.
I've tried to be a supportive and sympathetic listener - I, too, recall the dread of the early start, long day of boring ass high school. But its reached the point of a constant conversation, some real anxiousness about going, and talk about dropping out, transferring, getting her GED. She talks a lot about how much better remote school was (it was a joke and didn't have much homework, interaction.)
I'm pretty confident there's nothing too specific in her dislike... she has a healthy social life, she gets good grades, doesn't skip school, doesn't use drugs. I've asked a few times about bullying and sexual harassment, neither of which she says is happening. She has a good enough relationship with me and her mom, I'd say. She is not overtly depressed and does clubs, likes day trips and seeing family. Her life is not perfect, of course, but I'm failing to identify any problem other than a deep dislike of school.
There's not much to be done as far as changing schools. She goes to a generally well liked, very large high school in New York City. The only way to transfer is if she were in danger / being bullied, etc. And she's a junior already.
So... how do I parent this? I hesitate to be like "suck it up, school sucks, that's life", b/c she has decades more of late capitalism to go through. But I also don't want to indulge too much and helicopter some solution for her (who knows what that would be anyway), and I don't want to pathologize her experience.
So what do you do when your kid is hating something that might be part of life, but you don't want her to feel like accepting a fate of drudgery is great life practice? Thanks for your help, especially those with teens.
I'd love to get your thoughts on how to be a good parent / support for my daughter as she deals with what seems to be a pretty consistent dislike of going to and attending high school. She is a junior now, is back in school after the pandemic interruption that began in the spring of her freshman year.
I've tried to be a supportive and sympathetic listener - I, too, recall the dread of the early start, long day of boring ass high school. But its reached the point of a constant conversation, some real anxiousness about going, and talk about dropping out, transferring, getting her GED. She talks a lot about how much better remote school was (it was a joke and didn't have much homework, interaction.)
I'm pretty confident there's nothing too specific in her dislike... she has a healthy social life, she gets good grades, doesn't skip school, doesn't use drugs. I've asked a few times about bullying and sexual harassment, neither of which she says is happening. She has a good enough relationship with me and her mom, I'd say. She is not overtly depressed and does clubs, likes day trips and seeing family. Her life is not perfect, of course, but I'm failing to identify any problem other than a deep dislike of school.
There's not much to be done as far as changing schools. She goes to a generally well liked, very large high school in New York City. The only way to transfer is if she were in danger / being bullied, etc. And she's a junior already.
So... how do I parent this? I hesitate to be like "suck it up, school sucks, that's life", b/c she has decades more of late capitalism to go through. But I also don't want to indulge too much and helicopter some solution for her (who knows what that would be anyway), and I don't want to pathologize her experience.
So what do you do when your kid is hating something that might be part of life, but you don't want her to feel like accepting a fate of drudgery is great life practice? Thanks for your help, especially those with teens.
Best answer: My high school Latin teacher gave us all copies of The Art of Living (Epictetus) as graduation presents. It's basically an ancient Roman self-help book, distilling Stoicism into practical advice for daily living.
It won't magically make her not mind high school but it's a thoughtful middle ground between pathologizing her experience and "lol life sucks deal with it".
A lot of us really liked it as teens, and I still have my copy and flip through it on occasion many years later.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:00 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
It won't magically make her not mind high school but it's a thoughtful middle ground between pathologizing her experience and "lol life sucks deal with it".
A lot of us really liked it as teens, and I still have my copy and flip through it on occasion many years later.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:00 AM on October 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
Best answer: In two years or so, she will be a legal adult with many, many more options. This would be a good time for her to work on identifying the issues, finding alternatives, and choosing between them. It sounds like she's already thought about dropping out, transferring, and getting her GED - these are actually real options! They might not be ideal options, and you might not like the idea of them, but the truth is that once she turns 18 she will be able to choose these things or whatever their adult equivalent is. My point is, if she assesses the alternatives, and decides to stay in school, then that is her choice. And having chosen something yourself is very empowering.
Like, I don't particularly enjoy my job, but I do appreciate that I can take walks at lunch and see some lovely trees, that the cafeteria has great food even if it's expensive, that I have one coworker who is fun to chat with, and that I can look at MetaFilter all day if I want. Also, the pay isn't great but the benefits package is. So, I choose my crappy job because it has those things, and the alternative (of looking for a new job, relocating, etc) looks worse to me. And knowing that I am actually choosing this, as much as it sometimes sucks, reminds me that I am adult with that power of choice. I could also choose to quit and be unemployed, but I don't.
I think teenagers are stuck in this awful in-between, not kids but not yet quite adults...but it goes by fast, it's good to start thinking about these things. It's a very grown-up thing to do. Would this thought exercise appeal to her?
posted by epanalepsis at 7:11 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
Like, I don't particularly enjoy my job, but I do appreciate that I can take walks at lunch and see some lovely trees, that the cafeteria has great food even if it's expensive, that I have one coworker who is fun to chat with, and that I can look at MetaFilter all day if I want. Also, the pay isn't great but the benefits package is. So, I choose my crappy job because it has those things, and the alternative (of looking for a new job, relocating, etc) looks worse to me. And knowing that I am actually choosing this, as much as it sometimes sucks, reminds me that I am adult with that power of choice. I could also choose to quit and be unemployed, but I don't.
I think teenagers are stuck in this awful in-between, not kids but not yet quite adults...but it goes by fast, it's good to start thinking about these things. It's a very grown-up thing to do. Would this thought exercise appeal to her?
posted by epanalepsis at 7:11 AM on October 18, 2021 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I think a lot of kids feel this way. And a lot of kids would feel this way except for that One Thing - theatre group, choir, basketball, art class, chem lab whatever.
For practical ideas: Does her school offer speciality classes, or arts-based curriculum or anything like that? Could she find one course she loves for next term? Does she love the clubs enough that it's worth the price of some boring classes? One of the horrible things Covid has done is really put a wedge in around the non-class parts of high school.
Another idea would be to find something she loves outside of school that will occupy her mind. That could even be a job (and if she hates the job, that might help her decide to continue to pursue a more formal education.) I work with kids in school who hate school and also work part time, and school is kind of the price their parents set for them to pursue other things - and the working hours mean they have positive time in their day where they are engaged, so they can skirt the other parts better.
If none of that works, I did read The Film Club a while ago. It has its problematic elements but it helped me to think differently about the concept of educating our kids, so it might be helpful for you as a thinking point.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
For practical ideas: Does her school offer speciality classes, or arts-based curriculum or anything like that? Could she find one course she loves for next term? Does she love the clubs enough that it's worth the price of some boring classes? One of the horrible things Covid has done is really put a wedge in around the non-class parts of high school.
Another idea would be to find something she loves outside of school that will occupy her mind. That could even be a job (and if she hates the job, that might help her decide to continue to pursue a more formal education.) I work with kids in school who hate school and also work part time, and school is kind of the price their parents set for them to pursue other things - and the working hours mean they have positive time in their day where they are engaged, so they can skirt the other parts better.
If none of that works, I did read The Film Club a while ago. It has its problematic elements but it helped me to think differently about the concept of educating our kids, so it might be helpful for you as a thinking point.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:21 AM on October 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
I have teenagers as well. From what I can gather, your daughter has not been able to articulate what it is she doesn't like? Going to school in the pandemic does suck (for my kids at least, it's 6+ hours with a mask on, a new quadmester program which is hard to adjust to, hybrid classes in which some people are remote and some in person, limited in-person interactions etc) but are these the things that are bothering her? Because transferring would not solve those problems. It sounds like she may have developed some general anxiety, and school triggers/exacerbates it. I would suggest a broader conversation about her mental health, and really try to get to WHY she hates school so much. There is a deeper answer, you just need to get to it.
If the problem indeed is anxiety, there are lots of treatments/approaches for it. If it's not, and she just prefers to be remote because it's easier...well...I mean fostering a little gratitude/perspective about her circumstances might help. Lastly I would emphasize that this is temporary. The pandemic is temporary, and high school is temporary, and slogging through this does not mean she'll have to slog through everything in life.
posted by yawper at 7:28 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
If the problem indeed is anxiety, there are lots of treatments/approaches for it. If it's not, and she just prefers to be remote because it's easier...well...I mean fostering a little gratitude/perspective about her circumstances might help. Lastly I would emphasize that this is temporary. The pandemic is temporary, and high school is temporary, and slogging through this does not mean she'll have to slog through everything in life.
posted by yawper at 7:28 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I second fingersandtoes's suggestion that this is a learning opportunity for her, and something you both should become curious about instead of prematurely choosing between "okay, you can homeschool from now on" or "suck it up and deal with it".
You say that she isn't pointing out anything specific, and she 'just hates it' for amorphous reasons. What if you full-throatedly supported her instinct, assured her that her feelings are valid, and set both of yourselves the project of "Let's Figure Out Why RajkumariPrincess Hates High School"?
So for example, what exactly does she hate about the homework? And what might be the solution to the actual issue or issues she is having?
- Does it take up too much of her time and she feels like there's no downtime anymore? (solutions might be: talk to teachers about reducing homework; help her focus on tasks so she can be done sooner; lighten her load in other ways such as letting her off the hook on chores or reducing activities)
- Is it boring/drudgery because it's too easy? (possible solutions: ask for more challenging homework from teachers; think of ways to take her work to the next level and make her homework interesting on her own; set up a basic reward system for getting through drudgery kind of like how videogames reward players for grinding)
- Is there too much pressure on her to get homework right because it impacts her grades and that's stressing her out? (solutions: lower expectations; help her research future academic or professional paths that don't require her to maintain a 3.99 gpa; practice breathing and meditations to reduce anxiety)
- Does she have lazy or uncooperative teammates for group homework? (solutions: come up with ways to talk to uncooperative teammates; read a book about conflict communication; speak to the teacher about the issue; ask to switch to a new team)
- Did she get out of the habit of doing homework during the pandemic because she has learned to love staring off into space? (solution: ramp slowly back up to pre-pandemic levels of work, or whatever new lower level of work seems more acceptable to her right now - keeping in mind realistic work levels based on what she needs to be prepared for ito college/profession in a couple of years' time)
- Is she annoyed that she doesn't get to play games on her screens as much as during the pandemic? (solution: reset her expectations about how much time she should be on screens per day; collaboratively agree on personal limits for herself to get her screen habit broken; or if she wants to be a professional gamer or twitch streamer or whatever it is young 'uns are wanting to do these days, then set SMART goals for her gaming time so that she can work on a real plan rather than just mindlessly buzzing her brain out on the screens)
Same goes for lack of interaction. What exactly was so wonderful about that, for her? Is she discovering that she's an introvert? Is it just pandemic-related atrophy of social skills? Is it that people in her school are unpleasant for some reason? etc etc etc. And try out corresponding solutions for each.
Challenge her to become curious. Figuring out what exactly is her issue, and how exactly she can tweak her circumstances to address it, will be a HUGELY beneficial process for her; she will be learning that skill for life.
This is a fantastic opportunity for you to show her some unconditional support, too, while also providing her the use of your adult skills in slowing down and taking time to evaluate a situation rather than jumping to conclusions. You do have to earn her trust by following through, though, because she may suspect you're giving her the brush off unless you take the initiative to follow up regularly on what she has observed about herself this week, which solution she's trying next, how it's going, whether it can be tweaked, etc. It will take a few months, you can have a project timeline mapped out.
At the end of this long process it might very well turn out that her only workable solution is to quit high school and home school for the rest of her time. But by then, *you* will have been through this analytical process with her, and *you* will have more respect for her decision to quit school.
posted by MiraK at 7:39 AM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
You say that she isn't pointing out anything specific, and she 'just hates it' for amorphous reasons. What if you full-throatedly supported her instinct, assured her that her feelings are valid, and set both of yourselves the project of "Let's Figure Out Why RajkumariPrincess Hates High School"?
So for example, what exactly does she hate about the homework? And what might be the solution to the actual issue or issues she is having?
- Does it take up too much of her time and she feels like there's no downtime anymore? (solutions might be: talk to teachers about reducing homework; help her focus on tasks so she can be done sooner; lighten her load in other ways such as letting her off the hook on chores or reducing activities)
- Is it boring/drudgery because it's too easy? (possible solutions: ask for more challenging homework from teachers; think of ways to take her work to the next level and make her homework interesting on her own; set up a basic reward system for getting through drudgery kind of like how videogames reward players for grinding)
- Is there too much pressure on her to get homework right because it impacts her grades and that's stressing her out? (solutions: lower expectations; help her research future academic or professional paths that don't require her to maintain a 3.99 gpa; practice breathing and meditations to reduce anxiety)
- Does she have lazy or uncooperative teammates for group homework? (solutions: come up with ways to talk to uncooperative teammates; read a book about conflict communication; speak to the teacher about the issue; ask to switch to a new team)
- Did she get out of the habit of doing homework during the pandemic because she has learned to love staring off into space? (solution: ramp slowly back up to pre-pandemic levels of work, or whatever new lower level of work seems more acceptable to her right now - keeping in mind realistic work levels based on what she needs to be prepared for ito college/profession in a couple of years' time)
- Is she annoyed that she doesn't get to play games on her screens as much as during the pandemic? (solution: reset her expectations about how much time she should be on screens per day; collaboratively agree on personal limits for herself to get her screen habit broken; or if she wants to be a professional gamer or twitch streamer or whatever it is young 'uns are wanting to do these days, then set SMART goals for her gaming time so that she can work on a real plan rather than just mindlessly buzzing her brain out on the screens)
Same goes for lack of interaction. What exactly was so wonderful about that, for her? Is she discovering that she's an introvert? Is it just pandemic-related atrophy of social skills? Is it that people in her school are unpleasant for some reason? etc etc etc. And try out corresponding solutions for each.
Challenge her to become curious. Figuring out what exactly is her issue, and how exactly she can tweak her circumstances to address it, will be a HUGELY beneficial process for her; she will be learning that skill for life.
This is a fantastic opportunity for you to show her some unconditional support, too, while also providing her the use of your adult skills in slowing down and taking time to evaluate a situation rather than jumping to conclusions. You do have to earn her trust by following through, though, because she may suspect you're giving her the brush off unless you take the initiative to follow up regularly on what she has observed about herself this week, which solution she's trying next, how it's going, whether it can be tweaked, etc. It will take a few months, you can have a project timeline mapped out.
At the end of this long process it might very well turn out that her only workable solution is to quit high school and home school for the rest of her time. But by then, *you* will have been through this analytical process with her, and *you* will have more respect for her decision to quit school.
posted by MiraK at 7:39 AM on October 18, 2021 [13 favorites]
I mean, if she's one of those good grades clubs etc teens, I can't really blame her for looking at things and going "two more years of this? Is this really all there is?" I think a lot of us are having that conversation with ourselves, no matter what our age.
She might be doing this already, but can she add a college class or two, either cross-reg'ed with a high school class or just on the side? It'd let her feel like she's getting started on the next thing, and knocking out stuff like ENG101 while you're in high school makes that first year of college a lot easier.
posted by joycehealy at 7:40 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
She might be doing this already, but can she add a college class or two, either cross-reg'ed with a high school class or just on the side? It'd let her feel like she's getting started on the next thing, and knocking out stuff like ENG101 while you're in high school makes that first year of college a lot easier.
posted by joycehealy at 7:40 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Ugghhhh school blehhjgh.
I was your kid. Going to school was the absolute worst thing ever. I hated being forced to attend and I felt like a prisoner. It was so obvious that life was the thing that happened outside of school. And not one of the classes I took in school taught me how to be any good at life. A lot of it was simply drudgery. I learned a lot of fancy trivia and skewed "history" but not how to take care of myself or anyone else.
I was not able to articulate my feelings and the only thing I ever encountered that seemed to grasp the way I felt about the whole situation was the book My Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. Reading it made me feel better about my feelings. Your kid might enjoy reading it.
The other thing that helped me get through school was regularly reminding myself that I would graduate and be done eventually. Good luck, school years are tough.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 7:49 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
I was your kid. Going to school was the absolute worst thing ever. I hated being forced to attend and I felt like a prisoner. It was so obvious that life was the thing that happened outside of school. And not one of the classes I took in school taught me how to be any good at life. A lot of it was simply drudgery. I learned a lot of fancy trivia and skewed "history" but not how to take care of myself or anyone else.
I was not able to articulate my feelings and the only thing I ever encountered that seemed to grasp the way I felt about the whole situation was the book My Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. Reading it made me feel better about my feelings. Your kid might enjoy reading it.
The other thing that helped me get through school was regularly reminding myself that I would graduate and be done eventually. Good luck, school years are tough.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 7:49 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
My response to students who would say things like “why do I have to learn/do X when I’m never going to use it in real life?” was along the lines of “this is the one time in life where you get to try out things for free. High school is about creating later opportunities for yourself. You may not love French class but you may really like traveling and find it useful. You may not like math class but find out you do need some of it when you’re finding out how much space you need in your garden, or what percent is shaded by your house. You may not be interested in social studies but may find one day that you don’t like what’s happening in your community and need an understanding of government and a historical context for change.”
I think a big lesson of high school is that you don’t actually need to “like” whatever it is you’re doing in the moment. It’s actually a great exercise in finding some kind of meaning in whatever setting you’re in (ex you hate all regular schoolwork but you’re able to be a club that means something to you, etc).
posted by raccoon409 at 7:50 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think a big lesson of high school is that you don’t actually need to “like” whatever it is you’re doing in the moment. It’s actually a great exercise in finding some kind of meaning in whatever setting you’re in (ex you hate all regular schoolwork but you’re able to be a club that means something to you, etc).
posted by raccoon409 at 7:50 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I was miserable in high school and really wanted to home school, graduate early, apply to Simon's Rock, or anything that would get me out of it quicker. I was not permitted to do any of those things, but my parents did support and encourage me in these things that helped and were probably on balance good for my development:
- Going on flex time in my senior year (i.e. fewer hours spent at the school) and getting an internship
- Doing a program at a local educational institution (mine was the Folger high school fellowship but there's probably something in your area and her field of interest) that, again, got me off the school campus and also was way way way way way way way better than almost any of my classes
And these things that helped and were probably on balance bad for my development:
- Dropping out of the competitive program I had somehow gotten into but that emphasized skills I was increasingly floundering in (math, computers, engineering)
And these things that did not help:
- Stupid psychiatrist I was forced to go to and hated
Tl;dr version: What was useful was the message that if you're unhappy in a situation, you can take the initiative to find something else that is more tailored to your needs. I don't honestly know how much of a fuss my school put up about that, and how hard my parents had to lean on them to allow it. I suspect it wasn't that hard because a lot of kids went on flex time to work, but the point is, if pressure is needed that's something you can do for her (vs. finding an internship or program, which she should do on her own). What was helpful in the moment but probably not ideal was the message that if you're unhappy in a situation, you can quit. What was not helpful at all was the message that there was something wrong with my brain, even though I cannot stress enough that this was actually the reality of the situation, I was not being bullied and there was nothing wrong with my school whatsoever besides it being high school and generally uninspiring and alternately too easy and too hard. (In retrospect one of the things I was struggling with was what we would now call ADHD, but I didn't even have an inkling of that until... my senior year internship with an ADHD researcher at NIH!) I don't think that's always the message sent by sending a kid to therapy, to be clear, but it's a message to steer well clear of.
posted by babelfish at 7:51 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
- Going on flex time in my senior year (i.e. fewer hours spent at the school) and getting an internship
- Doing a program at a local educational institution (mine was the Folger high school fellowship but there's probably something in your area and her field of interest) that, again, got me off the school campus and also was way way way way way way way better than almost any of my classes
And these things that helped and were probably on balance bad for my development:
- Dropping out of the competitive program I had somehow gotten into but that emphasized skills I was increasingly floundering in (math, computers, engineering)
And these things that did not help:
- Stupid psychiatrist I was forced to go to and hated
Tl;dr version: What was useful was the message that if you're unhappy in a situation, you can take the initiative to find something else that is more tailored to your needs. I don't honestly know how much of a fuss my school put up about that, and how hard my parents had to lean on them to allow it. I suspect it wasn't that hard because a lot of kids went on flex time to work, but the point is, if pressure is needed that's something you can do for her (vs. finding an internship or program, which she should do on her own). What was helpful in the moment but probably not ideal was the message that if you're unhappy in a situation, you can quit. What was not helpful at all was the message that there was something wrong with my brain, even though I cannot stress enough that this was actually the reality of the situation, I was not being bullied and there was nothing wrong with my school whatsoever besides it being high school and generally uninspiring and alternately too easy and too hard. (In retrospect one of the things I was struggling with was what we would now call ADHD, but I didn't even have an inkling of that until... my senior year internship with an ADHD researcher at NIH!) I don't think that's always the message sent by sending a kid to therapy, to be clear, but it's a message to steer well clear of.
posted by babelfish at 7:51 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
My son in a senior this year, and last year he was VERY VOCAL about not wanting to be in-person in school.
I think that the first advice, above (about having her be mindful of what she wants instead of what she's got) is good: if she sees somethign she can fix, that's great, and if not, at least she has a goal.
Also, junior year is usually a lot of academic work -- more than before.
My son never got any happier about his schoolmates' lack of masks, but getting the vaccine improved his outlook.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:01 AM on October 18, 2021
I think that the first advice, above (about having her be mindful of what she wants instead of what she's got) is good: if she sees somethign she can fix, that's great, and if not, at least she has a goal.
Also, junior year is usually a lot of academic work -- more than before.
My son never got any happier about his schoolmates' lack of masks, but getting the vaccine improved his outlook.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:01 AM on October 18, 2021
Best answer: I had written out a long post, but on preview, MiraK said a lot of what I was going to say, and better.
My one point to add, though, is that a GED might not be the terrible option it sounds like at first. I knew somebody in law school who hated high school, so they dropped out, got their GED, and took classes at community college while working to save money. They ended up on law review.
The point of the story is that, if your daughter knows where she wants to go and could get there faster by not being in high school, it's worth discussing that alternate path to get there. I feel like in 99/100 cases, the alternate path is probably not better (that's why my law review classmate stood out so much), but the complicating factor is that you're in New York, and so there are options available to you and your daughter that weren't available to me in small-town Ohio in the 1990s, or to my classmate in suburban Detroit. If your daughter is interested in, like, archaeology, there are a lot of ways in NYC she could indulge that passion in the short term while still preparing for a career. But if she just wants to be an Instagram influencer, yeah, suck it up.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:20 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
My one point to add, though, is that a GED might not be the terrible option it sounds like at first. I knew somebody in law school who hated high school, so they dropped out, got their GED, and took classes at community college while working to save money. They ended up on law review.
The point of the story is that, if your daughter knows where she wants to go and could get there faster by not being in high school, it's worth discussing that alternate path to get there. I feel like in 99/100 cases, the alternate path is probably not better (that's why my law review classmate stood out so much), but the complicating factor is that you're in New York, and so there are options available to you and your daughter that weren't available to me in small-town Ohio in the 1990s, or to my classmate in suburban Detroit. If your daughter is interested in, like, archaeology, there are a lot of ways in NYC she could indulge that passion in the short term while still preparing for a career. But if she just wants to be an Instagram influencer, yeah, suck it up.
posted by kevinbelt at 8:20 AM on October 18, 2021 [6 favorites]
Young people have more energy and think quicker than older people, yet they're held hostage, a bit, by the pace at which their teachers can deal with them. BUT: you can do your own thinking, learning, and use your mind as actively as you want by layering your own interests on top of, or underneath (depending on how you think of it), what's actually being taught by/in the classes and on or underneath the mind numbing activities you have to endure.
ALSO, though, the lack of sleep that I had to endure as a child being bussed to school was really unconscionable, given what we know now about the sleep needs of this age group. Make sure the sleep issue is being addressed.
posted by amtho at 8:25 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
ALSO, though, the lack of sleep that I had to endure as a child being bussed to school was really unconscionable, given what we know now about the sleep needs of this age group. Make sure the sleep issue is being addressed.
posted by amtho at 8:25 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
One thing that helped my kid was having an outside activity. In our case, it was a club sport. Some kind of outside-school activity can provide a different stance on things and put school into proportion. We take high school way too seriously in the USA, and the pressure is just silly but very hard to distance yourself from. That said, we take sports too seriously too.
You can also send a kid to a different school for high school, whether alternative, private, remote, or whatever. We did that--sent the kid to a private school (we were really strapped but got good financial aid). Oddly enough, it was a school I attended as a kid and it was hellish for me, but my child liked it and was free to be their strange self there. School cultures can be weirdly different. I found it important to avoid many of the other parents because fear and ambition tend to feed paranoia.
The third thing that helped was just saying, "That really sucks," and not interfering. In our case, the kid (nearly 40 now) says we conveyed the belief that we trusted them to be able to handle it and we didn't take it too seriously. Often, when we parents are too afraid our kids can't put up with what's happening, we convey that there's some reason to be afraid.
posted by Peach at 8:35 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
You can also send a kid to a different school for high school, whether alternative, private, remote, or whatever. We did that--sent the kid to a private school (we were really strapped but got good financial aid). Oddly enough, it was a school I attended as a kid and it was hellish for me, but my child liked it and was free to be their strange self there. School cultures can be weirdly different. I found it important to avoid many of the other parents because fear and ambition tend to feed paranoia.
The third thing that helped was just saying, "That really sucks," and not interfering. In our case, the kid (nearly 40 now) says we conveyed the belief that we trusted them to be able to handle it and we didn't take it too seriously. Often, when we parents are too afraid our kids can't put up with what's happening, we convey that there's some reason to be afraid.
posted by Peach at 8:35 AM on October 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
Both my kids bailed from high school and went instead to a dual enrollment program at the local community college. This was a great alternative and they were able to finish high school and get college credit hours while (more or less) selecting courses that interested them. (And, btw, it ended up saving us money when they were able to enter college proper as sophomores.)
posted by sudogeek at 8:44 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by sudogeek at 8:44 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
Simon's Rock, mentioned above, really helped a student I worked with. She went from a very holistic and inclusive charter school through middle school, which she loved and thrived in, to a bog standard American high school, which made her miserable. Once she applied for and transferred to Simon's Rock, she was back to her former thriving, curious, happy self.
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:45 AM on October 18, 2021
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:45 AM on October 18, 2021
My son dropped out before his junior year, got his GED and is now a freshman at community college. It's not the most conventional path (especially if one is on track for applying to selective universities, which he wasn't) but it seems to be working for him.
posted by Daily Alice at 8:53 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Daily Alice at 8:53 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
Best answer: My best friend dropped out, got her GED, got into a good college, and is now (somewhat ironically) a high school teacher/administrator at a private school that does much, much better at the things that suck than public school does. I did not drop out, hated every minute of high school, was burned the fuck out, and never went to college because the very last thing I could contemplate coping with was more school. That worked out fine for me, too.
High school is, in fact, shit. I strongly second the people above who suggest trying to figure out better options. Your kid is clearly smart and perceptive and, frankly, going through the exact same realization that the pandemic brought to all of the workers who are quitting, changing careers, and going on strike. This is a good thing.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:14 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
High school is, in fact, shit. I strongly second the people above who suggest trying to figure out better options. Your kid is clearly smart and perceptive and, frankly, going through the exact same realization that the pandemic brought to all of the workers who are quitting, changing careers, and going on strike. This is a good thing.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:14 AM on October 18, 2021 [10 favorites]
Plus one to letting her drop out and get her GED. I did that about five days into my junior year of high school. For what it's worth, I went on to get a bachelors and master's degree from a well-respected university, and I now have a very successful career in marketing. (Admittedly, I find life as an office drone to be pretty mediocre too--but at least it gives me money and the ability to find fulfillment elsewhere in life. High school doesn't do that.)
I should point out that I think I would much worse off now if my parents had forced me to stay in high school to make a point about capitalism or something. High school was doing real damage to my emotional and mental wellbeing even though, by all appearances, nothing was specifically wrong. I was burning out hard. (In my case, I think my undiagnosed neurodiversity was the issue.) And I can assure you, no activity or club or class would have fixed things for me. I tried those.
That said, I think you can structure the dropping out in a way that makes it clear she's not just getting a strings-free vacation. In my case, I agreed with my parents that I'd find part-time employment and contribute more to the household (cooking all dinners, for example). Likewise, I made a plan to take the ACT and then get into college ASAP (I started at 17). After all, the point was definitely not to escape all responsibility and drudgery--it was to get out of a specific situation that was doing much more harm than good. Would you be open to something like this?
I still look back on dropping out as one of the best decisions I've ever made--and so do my parents. Their only regret? That they didn't let me drop out sooner. So I'd encourage you to stop looking at high school as "a part of life" when it really doesn't have to be and instead let your daughter do what she can to improve her situation.
posted by Bambiraptor at 9:50 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
I should point out that I think I would much worse off now if my parents had forced me to stay in high school to make a point about capitalism or something. High school was doing real damage to my emotional and mental wellbeing even though, by all appearances, nothing was specifically wrong. I was burning out hard. (In my case, I think my undiagnosed neurodiversity was the issue.) And I can assure you, no activity or club or class would have fixed things for me. I tried those.
That said, I think you can structure the dropping out in a way that makes it clear she's not just getting a strings-free vacation. In my case, I agreed with my parents that I'd find part-time employment and contribute more to the household (cooking all dinners, for example). Likewise, I made a plan to take the ACT and then get into college ASAP (I started at 17). After all, the point was definitely not to escape all responsibility and drudgery--it was to get out of a specific situation that was doing much more harm than good. Would you be open to something like this?
I still look back on dropping out as one of the best decisions I've ever made--and so do my parents. Their only regret? That they didn't let me drop out sooner. So I'd encourage you to stop looking at high school as "a part of life" when it really doesn't have to be and instead let your daughter do what she can to improve her situation.
posted by Bambiraptor at 9:50 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Seconding Sudogeek, I started hating school at your daughter's age though I got decent grades and had friends. The first two years had been fine. It did feel like prison in a way that no "that's just life"-type experience has felt like since. BUT! I loved learning stuff. I did the dual enrollment at a community college, and getting an opportunity to take classes like English 101 and Anthropology with folks of all ages from all walks of life and cultures was a much healthier environment for me. I hear the same from youth I work with now who have enrolled in similar programs.
posted by Maude_the_destroyer at 10:34 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Maude_the_destroyer at 10:34 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
I suspect the 'get used to it' advice is largely coming from people for whom school was a typical bad experience, and the 'she's right' camp are those for whom it was rather worse than that.
I went to an excellent school, where I got good grades, was reasonably popular, wasn't more than very occasionally bullied, never did drugs. It was by far the worst experience of my life - nothing in adult life has been remotely as bad. At your daughter's age, I wouldn't have had the breadth of experience to articulate what was wrong, because I had nothing to compare it to. I now understand the answer was just the standard combination of early mornings, unsympathetic company, and the absolutely constant inescapable sense that I was doing something that I wouldn't have chosen to do, and would be doing so for hours and hours, in the service of a goal I hadn't chosen and often didn't care about. Compared to many people's experiences, it was a walk in the park - compared to adulthood, in which these aspects were either absent or things I could consciously choose, it was hell.
As a parent, I think it's really scary to say to a kid "you can make your own decisions", because the decisions they will make will often be ones that lower your standing among your fellow parents! That's absolutely the price of granting autonomy, and I'm sympathetic to any parent who decides that a few dotage years of "Cindy is a lawyer now" is a fair enough price for putting in the years of tantrums and changing nappies. But it might be worth interrogating your feelings - how much of your wish to keep her there is about that, rather than her own feelings, which seem from this question to be fairly clear.
posted by wattle at 11:16 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
I went to an excellent school, where I got good grades, was reasonably popular, wasn't more than very occasionally bullied, never did drugs. It was by far the worst experience of my life - nothing in adult life has been remotely as bad. At your daughter's age, I wouldn't have had the breadth of experience to articulate what was wrong, because I had nothing to compare it to. I now understand the answer was just the standard combination of early mornings, unsympathetic company, and the absolutely constant inescapable sense that I was doing something that I wouldn't have chosen to do, and would be doing so for hours and hours, in the service of a goal I hadn't chosen and often didn't care about. Compared to many people's experiences, it was a walk in the park - compared to adulthood, in which these aspects were either absent or things I could consciously choose, it was hell.
As a parent, I think it's really scary to say to a kid "you can make your own decisions", because the decisions they will make will often be ones that lower your standing among your fellow parents! That's absolutely the price of granting autonomy, and I'm sympathetic to any parent who decides that a few dotage years of "Cindy is a lawyer now" is a fair enough price for putting in the years of tantrums and changing nappies. But it might be worth interrogating your feelings - how much of your wish to keep her there is about that, rather than her own feelings, which seem from this question to be fairly clear.
posted by wattle at 11:16 AM on October 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
Best answer: tl;dr but I've seen the GED test and believe me, your daughter doesn't want to invest the time needed to prepare, in order to pass that thing.
posted by Rash at 11:35 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Rash at 11:35 AM on October 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm gonna pop back in here to bring up a counterpoint to my original comment. I still do think the GED/starting whatever comes next combination is an option and potentially even a good one, but I also do want to stick up for the notion that things you hate in high school may come back to have value later in life. One of my most vivid high school memories is hating Algebra 2, to the point where I broke down in tears doing homework once. But now, 25 years later, I watch algebra riddles on Youtube. I've actually come to think algebra is kind of fun, and I wish I'd paid closer attention in school. It was a winding road to get here: I majored in a social science in college, which meant I took a bunch of classes in statistics and econometrics, where algebra knowledge is helpful. I also work in the software industry, where algebra concepts are absolutely integral (math pun, I think - see, I never took any math beyond trig, but I remember friends talking about integrals, so I think that's a thing). I didn't even have a computer in high school, so I really didn't even know what software was, let alone that I'd be working with it as a career.
All of this is to say that most schools are really bad about answering the infamous "when am I ever going to use this in real life?" question. It might be helpful to try to answer that for your daughter. Easier said than done, of course. But there is a point to sitting there and slogging through all that stuff, and the point is to become a well-rounded person. It's possible to achieve that without sitting through all the boring classroom and extracurricular stuff, but it's more difficult, and usually much more expensive if she's in a public school. Even just watching some Jeopardy! or playing some online trivia should show just how much foundational knowledge there is to acquire before specialization. For literature, there were a bunch of movies in the 90s (Clueless, 10 Things I Hate About You, etc.) that recontextualized classic English-lit works into modern settings, and while you can comprehend them on their own, it would be helpful and interesting to also compare them to the source material. Nature documentaries for bio, travel stuff for social studies, etc. Or a series of Ask Metafilter questions asking how to make [subject] more interesting!
One of the reasons that the whole notion of short term sacrifice as character building is such a thing is because we're pretty bad about predicting what will matter to us in the long term. We (especially young people) overvalue short term comfort, and it's helpful to have an external power watching out for our long term interests. Obviously that's not true in all cases, like if she's being bullied or if she's neurodivergent or if she's otherwise being actively harmed by being in school, but you haven't indicated that's the case. Maybe she's an encyclopedia-reader (that's how people used to make fun of me) and she has that foundation of academic knowledge on her own already, and school is just for social development, in which case moving on will be better. But if she's just a normal kid who'd rather not spend all day in classrooms and doing homework, remind her that there might actually be value in slogging it out, and give her examples if possible.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:35 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
All of this is to say that most schools are really bad about answering the infamous "when am I ever going to use this in real life?" question. It might be helpful to try to answer that for your daughter. Easier said than done, of course. But there is a point to sitting there and slogging through all that stuff, and the point is to become a well-rounded person. It's possible to achieve that without sitting through all the boring classroom and extracurricular stuff, but it's more difficult, and usually much more expensive if she's in a public school. Even just watching some Jeopardy! or playing some online trivia should show just how much foundational knowledge there is to acquire before specialization. For literature, there were a bunch of movies in the 90s (Clueless, 10 Things I Hate About You, etc.) that recontextualized classic English-lit works into modern settings, and while you can comprehend them on their own, it would be helpful and interesting to also compare them to the source material. Nature documentaries for bio, travel stuff for social studies, etc. Or a series of Ask Metafilter questions asking how to make [subject] more interesting!
One of the reasons that the whole notion of short term sacrifice as character building is such a thing is because we're pretty bad about predicting what will matter to us in the long term. We (especially young people) overvalue short term comfort, and it's helpful to have an external power watching out for our long term interests. Obviously that's not true in all cases, like if she's being bullied or if she's neurodivergent or if she's otherwise being actively harmed by being in school, but you haven't indicated that's the case. Maybe she's an encyclopedia-reader (that's how people used to make fun of me) and she has that foundation of academic knowledge on her own already, and school is just for social development, in which case moving on will be better. But if she's just a normal kid who'd rather not spend all day in classrooms and doing homework, remind her that there might actually be value in slogging it out, and give her examples if possible.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:35 AM on October 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
Is a junior too late to do anything about it really? Two years is a lot of time in her short life already. Would she like to go to boarding school for a couple of years? Spend her final year abroad?
posted by heavenknows at 11:36 AM on October 18, 2021
posted by heavenknows at 11:36 AM on October 18, 2021
Does she have a job? If she doesn’t, have her get one that she thinks is interesting. See if she likes that better than high school. If she hates both after a few weeks, you have more than an existential problem.
posted by jasondigitized at 7:00 PM on October 18, 2021
posted by jasondigitized at 7:00 PM on October 18, 2021
I think it's a shame - my final two years were probably my favourites as I had a lot more control over what I was studying and much more general freedom. I feel like the right answer depends on how bad things are for her and why, but also what she wants to do when she finishes high school. A selective college will be looking for a certain type of applicant, which means finishing high school with excellent grades and extra curricular activities, or making very meaningful choices in an alternative that stacks up into a compelling admission story. Going to CUNY/SUNY or similar is less idiosyncratic, and both more and less flexible. If she has no plans to go to college or not for a while, then while getting a high school diploma or GED is essential, there are a range of ways of doing that and it's more important to work out what she actually does want to do, and whether she thinks high school is the best/easiest route to that or something else is.
posted by plonkee at 8:41 AM on October 19, 2021
posted by plonkee at 8:41 AM on October 19, 2021
I took community college classes instead of high school ones for my junior and senior years. My spouse took a math class at the community college with the rest at high school. My stepbrother got his GED and later became a teacher himself. There's a number of paths that can be good and better for someone who wants them.
In my state, there's also a good internet school that's open to the whole state. (Technically open to out of state too, but then there's actual tuition.) So it might be worth looking into whether anywhere in your state has an online public school that can be transferred to. (Basically they just have to get a transfer from the public school they're currently in.) They may be open to midterm transfers or have advice on how to transfer for January, if that's something you're daughter wants.
I hope your daughter can find a good solution for herself.
posted by blueberry monster at 8:25 PM on October 24, 2021
In my state, there's also a good internet school that's open to the whole state. (Technically open to out of state too, but then there's actual tuition.) So it might be worth looking into whether anywhere in your state has an online public school that can be transferred to. (Basically they just have to get a transfer from the public school they're currently in.) They may be open to midterm transfers or have advice on how to transfer for January, if that's something you're daughter wants.
I hope your daughter can find a good solution for herself.
posted by blueberry monster at 8:25 PM on October 24, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Right now she may not have choices: but she will, soon, have choices. Tell her to take note of what's working for her and what isn't, and start researching the kind of life that will have less of what she hates. If you're in NYC it may be unusual to dislike crowds, and a grind; but maybe what she's going to need is to go to a college with a program like mining or agriculture or a vet program. If she hates high school, she's not going to love life as an office drone.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:58 AM on October 18, 2021 [18 favorites]