「ねこ」あとでわからん
December 30, 2020 5:47 PM Subscribe
Can anyone help me decipher the highly stylized hiragana on this scroll?
I'm pretty sure it starts with "ねこ" and can recognize various other mora (moræ?), but not enough to really translate it.
I'm pretty sure it starts with "ねこ" and can recognize various other mora (moræ?), but not enough to really translate it.
(A tip, in case you're studying Japanese: The で in your post title would more appropriately be a は.
で--> "I don't understand later"
は--> "I don't understand the rest")
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:37 PM on December 30, 2020
で--> "I don't understand later"
は--> "I don't understand the rest")
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:37 PM on December 30, 2020
Response by poster: Thanks for the speedy answer and grammar lesson! It's been a long while since I've really studied, but I always appreciate feedback
If I can trouble you a bit more, I'm curious how you managed to read this. Going backwards I can see where a number of these fit in on this annotated image I made, but I have a few questions:
In the upper right 猫じゃと, it looks like a く between the ゃ and と. What's the deal with that? Could it possibly be a 〱(vertical kana repeat mark)?
Also in the おしゃいますが, I can make out the お, ゃ and すが parts, but how do you get the し and いま bits? I can accept that vertical scribble as being a し, I suppose, but whatever that is between the ゃ and すが looks nothing like いま to me.
Finally, is that bottom-right character really が? It looks very different from the other が following the す above. I would've guessed it was ず or の (with some odd bits on top since I've never heard of の with ゛).
posted by Cogito at 7:56 PM on December 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
If I can trouble you a bit more, I'm curious how you managed to read this. Going backwards I can see where a number of these fit in on this annotated image I made, but I have a few questions:
In the upper right 猫じゃと, it looks like a く between the ゃ and と. What's the deal with that? Could it possibly be a 〱(vertical kana repeat mark)?
Also in the おしゃいますが, I can make out the お, ゃ and すが parts, but how do you get the し and いま bits? I can accept that vertical scribble as being a し, I suppose, but whatever that is between the ゃ and すが looks nothing like いま to me.
Finally, is that bottom-right character really が? It looks very different from the other が following the す above. I would've guessed it was ず or の (with some odd bits on top since I've never heard of の with ゛).
posted by Cogito at 7:56 PM on December 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Addendum! So this site explains the origins and meaning of the song.
I'm curious how you managed to read this.
*sheepishly* Erm, mostly by Googling the portions I could read, rather than some magical power to read Japanese cursive. This is not my expertise, so take my write-up with a huge grain of salt. Japanese handwriting from the 1800s and earlier is an art, both in the writing and reading. Did you happen to see the other recent post about reading an old handwritten message? The consensus there was that it was work for historians, beyond the range of most modern native speakers.
Could it possibly be a 〱(vertical kana repeat mark)?
That would be my guess.
Also in the おしゃいますが, I can make out the お, ゃ and すが parts, but how do you get the し and いま bits? I can accept that vertical scribble as being a し, I suppose, but whatever that is between the ゃ and すが looks nothing like いま to me.
*aside* Aaand of course I notice too late that おしゃいますが should be おっしゃいますが ...at least in "modern" Japanese, though on looking at some other sources (including the earlier site I quoted) I am seeing おしゃますand some other variations...
Agreed that the し is the long squiggle. As for the い: On further research, a lot of the versions of the lyrics do not have an い, and use the shortened form おっしゃます. I see a ま directly above the す (ok, so you see the curvy "2"-like line that seems to continue the diagonal line from the cat's ear? That curvy cluster is the ま, and the base of the 2 is the "crossbar" of the す).
Finally, is that bottom-right character really が? It looks very different from the other が following the す above. I would've guessed it was ず or の
It becomes more apparent as a が if you contemplate the kakijun, or order of strokes, and writing this with a brush. Start the が with the downstroke, and without lifting the brush, make the big wrap-around stroke, then go back and finish with the three small strokes.
You can distinguish from a ず because a す requires a wider crossbar (as in the ますが line).
Not a の because, as you point out, it's got the bits on top.
(This gets into the "art" or hunch-y aspect of this, but some of the reading is based on the overall balance or feel of the character).
Hope that helps! Anyone out there with more expertise, please chime in!
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:05 PM on December 30, 2020
I'm curious how you managed to read this.
*sheepishly* Erm, mostly by Googling the portions I could read, rather than some magical power to read Japanese cursive. This is not my expertise, so take my write-up with a huge grain of salt. Japanese handwriting from the 1800s and earlier is an art, both in the writing and reading. Did you happen to see the other recent post about reading an old handwritten message? The consensus there was that it was work for historians, beyond the range of most modern native speakers.
Could it possibly be a 〱(vertical kana repeat mark)?
That would be my guess.
Also in the おしゃいますが, I can make out the お, ゃ and すが parts, but how do you get the し and いま bits? I can accept that vertical scribble as being a し, I suppose, but whatever that is between the ゃ and すが looks nothing like いま to me.
*aside* Aaand of course I notice too late that おしゃいますが should be おっしゃいますが ...at least in "modern" Japanese, though on looking at some other sources (including the earlier site I quoted) I am seeing おしゃますand some other variations...
Agreed that the し is the long squiggle. As for the い: On further research, a lot of the versions of the lyrics do not have an い, and use the shortened form おっしゃます. I see a ま directly above the す (ok, so you see the curvy "2"-like line that seems to continue the diagonal line from the cat's ear? That curvy cluster is the ま, and the base of the 2 is the "crossbar" of the す).
Finally, is that bottom-right character really が? It looks very different from the other が following the す above. I would've guessed it was ず or の
It becomes more apparent as a が if you contemplate the kakijun, or order of strokes, and writing this with a brush. Start the が with the downstroke, and without lifting the brush, make the big wrap-around stroke, then go back and finish with the three small strokes.
You can distinguish from a ず because a す requires a wider crossbar (as in the ますが line).
Not a の because, as you point out, it's got the bits on top.
(This gets into the "art" or hunch-y aspect of this, but some of the reading is based on the overall balance or feel of the character).
Hope that helps! Anyone out there with more expertise, please chime in!
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:05 PM on December 30, 2020
Cogito, the original image is cut off, but does your cat in question happen to be wearing shoes? Or any sort of human garments or accessories?
I ask because, among the many many variations of the story, one prominent version goes thus:
He's not home, so she has another lover over. But! He comes home early. She shoves lover into the closet to hide but neglects to hide lover's shoes. When he confronts her about the shoes, she blames the cat for dragging them in from somewhere. His retort is the refrain on your scroll: "You say, 'The cat, the cat,' but does the cat wear men's shoes? Carry this walking stick? Wear robes like this?"
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:43 PM on December 30, 2020
I ask because, among the many many variations of the story, one prominent version goes thus:
He's not home, so she has another lover over. But! He comes home early. She shoves lover into the closet to hide but neglects to hide lover's shoes. When he confronts her about the shoes, she blames the cat for dragging them in from somewhere. His retort is the refrain on your scroll: "You say, 'The cat, the cat,' but does the cat wear men's shoes? Carry this walking stick? Wear robes like this?"
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 10:43 PM on December 30, 2020
Apologies for any off-topicality, but the song as described by Sockin'inthefreeworld reminded me so strongly of Coley Jones' "Drunkard's Special" from The Anthology of American Folk Music that I wanted to share! Apparently it's a version from folk tradition, too, called "Our Goodman."
posted by cgc373 at 2:50 AM on December 31, 2020
posted by cgc373 at 2:50 AM on December 31, 2020
Response by poster: Thanks again for the further clarifications, Sockin'. That makes a lot more sense when you explain it that way
posted by Cogito at 12:07 PM on December 31, 2020
posted by Cogito at 12:07 PM on December 31, 2020
I have this exact same scroll! Sockin'inthefreeworld, the cat is not wearing shoes or any other apparel, just the red collar. On mine there is a kind of seal with four characters in the bottom left-hand corner. Back when I first bought it, I asked my Japanese friend what it said and she said it was too difficult to read. Thank you for all your research! I'm going to check out your links.
posted by Avalow at 2:57 AM on January 4, 2021
posted by Avalow at 2:57 AM on January 4, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
猫じゃ 猫じゃと おしゃいますが
猫が
This blogger asked the same question about a very similar image. See also this Yahoo Q&A.
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:30 PM on December 30, 2020 [1 favorite]