I have been on the balcony with a dog with no name
November 9, 2020 5:04 AM Subscribe
We're fostering a one-year old mutt that thinks it's ok to pee on the balcony. She knows not to do it inside the house, how do we extend this to cover the outside space?
She was found on the street some months ago, ended up with an animal rescue organization and has been with us for a few weeks. We don't have good information about what her previous situation was, and the animal rescue people don't know much about her either; we have volunteered to foster her for a few weeks with a view to keeping her if we get along well or holding her until a permanent home can be found.
She has never had a toilet accident inside the house the whole time she's been with us, but whenever we go out on the balcony she will invariably escape our attention and go have a nice long pee on the far end. She gets three to four walks a day and never seems to be in any distress - this will happen any time of day, no matter if she's had a recent walk or not. A complicating factor is that she hasn't been spayed and just finished her first estrus cycle a few days ago.
So far we've been sternly saying no when she does it, and taking her inside to be by herself - she's very social and loves to be around us, so we figure this counts as punishment. However, it's been three weeks now and it doesn't look like we've made much progress - do the dog whisperers of Mefi have any ideas?
Pet Tax and bonus round: Said loveable miscreant does not have a name yet, suggestions are welcome.
She was found on the street some months ago, ended up with an animal rescue organization and has been with us for a few weeks. We don't have good information about what her previous situation was, and the animal rescue people don't know much about her either; we have volunteered to foster her for a few weeks with a view to keeping her if we get along well or holding her until a permanent home can be found.
She has never had a toilet accident inside the house the whole time she's been with us, but whenever we go out on the balcony she will invariably escape our attention and go have a nice long pee on the far end. She gets three to four walks a day and never seems to be in any distress - this will happen any time of day, no matter if she's had a recent walk or not. A complicating factor is that she hasn't been spayed and just finished her first estrus cycle a few days ago.
So far we've been sternly saying no when she does it, and taking her inside to be by herself - she's very social and loves to be around us, so we figure this counts as punishment. However, it's been three weeks now and it doesn't look like we've made much progress - do the dog whisperers of Mefi have any ideas?
Pet Tax and bonus round: Said loveable miscreant does not have a name yet, suggestions are welcome.
Definitely take her out to pee immediately before balcony time. If she doesn't pee, no balcony time. You can get a Kong-type toy and stuff it with treats for her if you're concerned about her separation anxiety while you're on the balcony without her.
Also, if she does pee: Stop her (using a leash, your voice etc) and immediately take her outside and encourage her to pee there instead. If she does, give her much praise and maybe even a treat or three.
Punishment after accidents isn't generally helpful. Redirection to an appropriate spot is the way to go.
Good luck!
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 5:53 AM on November 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
Also, if she does pee: Stop her (using a leash, your voice etc) and immediately take her outside and encourage her to pee there instead. If she does, give her much praise and maybe even a treat or three.
Punishment after accidents isn't generally helpful. Redirection to an appropriate spot is the way to go.
Good luck!
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 5:53 AM on November 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
It's basically house training for the balcony. Both respondents have the right approach.. punishing after peeing isn't very effective.
As soon as you see her peeing, pick her up and move her off the balcony.
Also, agree, prior to balcony time, encouraging to pee elsewhere, and then rewarding immediately after will help. I.E. go to spot where peeing is OK. Wait a very long time until she pees. Give treat and lavish praise. Then go to balcony.
If you can do this 3-4 times a day over the course of a week or so, that will be a large step forward. On top, as soon as she is peeing on the balcony, move her to proper spot. Even if she finishes before you get to her, pick her up and move her.
Also be sure to quickly clean the spot to remove her scent.
posted by rich at 6:20 AM on November 9, 2020
As soon as you see her peeing, pick her up and move her off the balcony.
Also, agree, prior to balcony time, encouraging to pee elsewhere, and then rewarding immediately after will help. I.E. go to spot where peeing is OK. Wait a very long time until she pees. Give treat and lavish praise. Then go to balcony.
If you can do this 3-4 times a day over the course of a week or so, that will be a large step forward. On top, as soon as she is peeing on the balcony, move her to proper spot. Even if she finishes before you get to her, pick her up and move her.
Also be sure to quickly clean the spot to remove her scent.
posted by rich at 6:20 AM on November 9, 2020
Response by poster: Thanks for answers so far - a complicating factor: we're on the sixth floor, a proper spot is at best several minutes away (not to mention local covid procedures getting in the way - right now we're supposed to register by SMS each time before taking her out for a walk).
Edited to add: my concern is that this will look like she's getting rewarded for peeing on the balcony with a nice walk outside.
posted by each day we work at 6:26 AM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Edited to add: my concern is that this will look like she's getting rewarded for peeing on the balcony with a nice walk outside.
posted by each day we work at 6:26 AM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
A small, fake grass pee carpet with a container on the balcony? (I know a little bit about dogs but have never had a balcony. My neighbors have many such things.)
posted by eotvos at 6:33 AM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by eotvos at 6:33 AM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Best answer: She shouldn't be allowed on the balcony when you're not able to supervise closely enough to interrupt at the first sign of a squat and immediately rush outside. Ideally save balcony visits for right after going outside.
Clean the pee spots very well with an enzyme cleaner (anything soft may need to be thrown out). If she can smell pee there at all it'll be very difficult to get her to understand it's not a peeing spot.
The stern no (and any type of punishment) is a bad idea - it's very likely to teach her that you're upset with her for peeing and she may become reluctant to pee with you nearby (ie on pee walks) and instead hold her pee until you're not nearby. This will make it much more difficult to train properly in the future.
A better interruption is a positive one - call her name, throw a treat on the floor, etc, and then immediately take her for a pee break since she clearly needs to go and it's not any more pleasant for dogs to walk around with a full bladder than it is for us. It's not rewarding her for peeing, it's recognizing when she has a need and meeting that need before she's forced to meet it herself in a way you don't like.
You may also find it helpful to train a potty bell for her to directly ask for a pee break.
posted by randomnity at 7:38 AM on November 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
Clean the pee spots very well with an enzyme cleaner (anything soft may need to be thrown out). If she can smell pee there at all it'll be very difficult to get her to understand it's not a peeing spot.
The stern no (and any type of punishment) is a bad idea - it's very likely to teach her that you're upset with her for peeing and she may become reluctant to pee with you nearby (ie on pee walks) and instead hold her pee until you're not nearby. This will make it much more difficult to train properly in the future.
A better interruption is a positive one - call her name, throw a treat on the floor, etc, and then immediately take her for a pee break since she clearly needs to go and it's not any more pleasant for dogs to walk around with a full bladder than it is for us. It's not rewarding her for peeing, it's recognizing when she has a need and meeting that need before she's forced to meet it herself in a way you don't like.
You may also find it helpful to train a potty bell for her to directly ask for a pee break.
posted by randomnity at 7:38 AM on November 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
How often are you taking her outside to pee, not just for walks? Is it possible that she also just needs to go out to pee more often? I can understand that it's inconvenient right now, but sometimes... one just has to pee. For my fosters, I try to get them outside every few hours when I'm home, especially just after eating.
posted by answergrape at 11:33 AM on November 9, 2020
posted by answergrape at 11:33 AM on November 9, 2020
Yeah, it sounds like she's not getting enough time outside where peeing is allowed, and if you live on the 6th floor, I find it hard to believe she's being taken out side 4-6 times a day. Take her downstairs to pee more often, and for longer. Keep in mind that she may have an infection that makes her need to pee more frequently than she normally would. But ultimately I think think this is a situation where you guys just need to give better pee breaks. Do you have kids? Is it possible the kids are saying they are doing pee breaks, but not really following through on all of them? As a kid, faced with six floors between me and taking the dog out I would definitely have "missed" plenty of times it was my turn to do the pee break...
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:03 PM on November 9, 2020
posted by WalkerWestridge at 1:03 PM on November 9, 2020
We're on the sixth floor, a proper spot is at best several minutes away
Not to be pedantic, but if you have restrictions re: walking out to the proper elimination spot six minutes away, where else can your dog relieve herself When Nature Calls? You're lucky that she is trained enough not to eliminate inside the home and is able to hold it until she goes out on the balcony. You could probably buy puppy pee pads from the local pet supply store that will absorb her urine when she "goes" on the balcony.
Please consider your own bladder needs.....would you like to be restricted to "holding" it every time you needed to pee because you're six floors up and have to don hazmat gear before being allowed to eliminate? Isn't it ever so, well, "pleasurable" to be able to dash to the bathroom a few steps away and relieve yourself in the commode when the urge strikes you in the middle of the night? Plus unspayed female dogs often "mark" territory - especially when stressed in a new environment. Perhaps it's a plus factor that doggo doesn't pee indoors, and maybe after she's spayed you can clean the balcony thoroughly with some enzyme cleaner to remove all the scents.
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:23 PM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Not to be pedantic, but if you have restrictions re: walking out to the proper elimination spot six minutes away, where else can your dog relieve herself When Nature Calls? You're lucky that she is trained enough not to eliminate inside the home and is able to hold it until she goes out on the balcony. You could probably buy puppy pee pads from the local pet supply store that will absorb her urine when she "goes" on the balcony.
Please consider your own bladder needs.....would you like to be restricted to "holding" it every time you needed to pee because you're six floors up and have to don hazmat gear before being allowed to eliminate? Isn't it ever so, well, "pleasurable" to be able to dash to the bathroom a few steps away and relieve yourself in the commode when the urge strikes you in the middle of the night? Plus unspayed female dogs often "mark" territory - especially when stressed in a new environment. Perhaps it's a plus factor that doggo doesn't pee indoors, and maybe after she's spayed you can clean the balcony thoroughly with some enzyme cleaner to remove all the scents.
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:23 PM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
She's adorable and should probably be named Ethel but as for the pee-problem, living on the sixth floor, it seems like having a safe place for her to pee on your balcony, either pee pads or the fake grass in a box would be a sensible approach. Completely agree that punishment after the fact does not work with animals. Good luck.
posted by lois1950 at 2:04 PM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by lois1950 at 2:04 PM on November 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Additional datapoint from yesterday: she unexpectedly took a long pee in the middle of the living room last night, right after her dinner. It was only a couple of hours after her long afternoon walk. She wasn't shy about doing it around us either, we were only a meter away setting up our dinner. This has never happened before, so far we have not had reason to worry that she's going to go inside the house.
Yeah, it sounds like she's not getting enough time outside where peeing is allowed, and if you live on the 6th floor, I find it hard to believe she's being taken out side 4-6 times a day.
I don't know why you would find it hard (it's not a walkup), but I also don't know where you got the 4-6 number. She gets at least three, most days four walks: shorter (10-20min) walks in the morning, middle of the day and before bedtime every day, and a long 1-2 hour walk in the afternoon most days. Some days she will get extra walks if we have to run out to the store or something but it's not the rule.
To be clear, I only brought the six floors / coronavirus restriction issue up because it is necessarily imposing a delay between when we realize she's going to pee and when we can get her to a good peeing spot: I find it impossible to believe that if I interrupt her while she's peeing, she will wait long enough for one of us to get ourselves ready to go out, deal with the elevator or stairs and get out of the building before resuming.
In fact I have never successfully interrupted her by putting her on the leash, telling her to stop or any other method. In practical terms, I would have to be dragging a pissing dog through the communal areas of the building even if I were to disregard everything else and just take her out as fast as possible.
Also for the record we do not mind going down at all; we both spend most of the day staring at the screen and it's a welcome distraction, plus the dog is cute and loveable. If anything, I am worried we might be spoiling her with too much attention and activity that she will miss when we stop spending all day every day at home.
Do you have kids? Is it possible the kids are saying they are doing pee breaks, but not really following through on all of them? As a kid, faced with six floors between me and taking the dog out I would definitely have "missed" plenty of times it was my turn to do the pee break...
No, we do not have kids or anybody else help take care of her - we are very confident that we know how many walks a day doggo gets.
isn't it ever so, well, "pleasurable" to be able to dash to the bathroom a few steps away and relieve yourself in the commode when the urge strikes you in the middle of the night?
She has never had a nighttime accident and will easily go 6-8 hours between walks if kept inside (well, except for the one time yesterday). She will reliably pee if taken on the balcony, any time of day or night - to me it seems that she doesn't have a good distinction between outside on the balcony and outside in the street/park and takes being outside as a cue to go.
Plus unspayed female dogs often "mark" territory - especially when stressed in a new environment.
She has definitely been doing that sniffing around trees on walks, not so much on the balcony. In fact on the balcony it's always one long continuous pee while on the walk most times it's little dribs and drabs every time we come up on an interesting tree or patch of dirt.
posted by each day we work at 10:02 PM on November 9, 2020
Yeah, it sounds like she's not getting enough time outside where peeing is allowed, and if you live on the 6th floor, I find it hard to believe she's being taken out side 4-6 times a day.
I don't know why you would find it hard (it's not a walkup), but I also don't know where you got the 4-6 number. She gets at least three, most days four walks: shorter (10-20min) walks in the morning, middle of the day and before bedtime every day, and a long 1-2 hour walk in the afternoon most days. Some days she will get extra walks if we have to run out to the store or something but it's not the rule.
To be clear, I only brought the six floors / coronavirus restriction issue up because it is necessarily imposing a delay between when we realize she's going to pee and when we can get her to a good peeing spot: I find it impossible to believe that if I interrupt her while she's peeing, she will wait long enough for one of us to get ourselves ready to go out, deal with the elevator or stairs and get out of the building before resuming.
In fact I have never successfully interrupted her by putting her on the leash, telling her to stop or any other method. In practical terms, I would have to be dragging a pissing dog through the communal areas of the building even if I were to disregard everything else and just take her out as fast as possible.
Also for the record we do not mind going down at all; we both spend most of the day staring at the screen and it's a welcome distraction, plus the dog is cute and loveable. If anything, I am worried we might be spoiling her with too much attention and activity that she will miss when we stop spending all day every day at home.
Do you have kids? Is it possible the kids are saying they are doing pee breaks, but not really following through on all of them? As a kid, faced with six floors between me and taking the dog out I would definitely have "missed" plenty of times it was my turn to do the pee break...
No, we do not have kids or anybody else help take care of her - we are very confident that we know how many walks a day doggo gets.
isn't it ever so, well, "pleasurable" to be able to dash to the bathroom a few steps away and relieve yourself in the commode when the urge strikes you in the middle of the night?
She has never had a nighttime accident and will easily go 6-8 hours between walks if kept inside (well, except for the one time yesterday). She will reliably pee if taken on the balcony, any time of day or night - to me it seems that she doesn't have a good distinction between outside on the balcony and outside in the street/park and takes being outside as a cue to go.
Plus unspayed female dogs often "mark" territory - especially when stressed in a new environment.
She has definitely been doing that sniffing around trees on walks, not so much on the balcony. In fact on the balcony it's always one long continuous pee while on the walk most times it's little dribs and drabs every time we come up on an interesting tree or patch of dirt.
posted by each day we work at 10:02 PM on November 9, 2020
Best answer: I agree that you should put her on a leash and take her outside right after she pees. Don't drag her outside while still peeing, just say "do you need to go outside?" or your preferred command word for potty breaks and/or walks, wait til she stops peeing, leash her up, and go. You don't need to take her on a walk, just to the nearest grass/tree/likely potty stop, hang out there for a minute asking her if she needs to go potty, then back inside.
With my dog, who is otherwise potty trained but peed right outside my office in the hallway (5 floors up) several times, I think the key was letting him finish going, then take him outside on leash like a regular potty break, every time. It didn't matter if he peed outside or not. He was unfamiliar with the office and elevators in general when this happened - it may just be an adjustment period for your (adorable) pup.
Another thing to consider is getting on a schedule. Are you taking her out and feeding her at different times, or are the walks and feedings at close to the same time each day? If different, try a consistent schedule. The time change might have thrown things off as well.
And monitor how much water she is drinking. Does she drink a lot of water after meals? When does she drink the most water? Is she drinking a ton of water or eating a lot of wet food? Someone above raised the possibility of a medical issue - you'll want to know this info to share with the vet.
posted by Red Desk at 11:31 PM on November 9, 2020
With my dog, who is otherwise potty trained but peed right outside my office in the hallway (5 floors up) several times, I think the key was letting him finish going, then take him outside on leash like a regular potty break, every time. It didn't matter if he peed outside or not. He was unfamiliar with the office and elevators in general when this happened - it may just be an adjustment period for your (adorable) pup.
Another thing to consider is getting on a schedule. Are you taking her out and feeding her at different times, or are the walks and feedings at close to the same time each day? If different, try a consistent schedule. The time change might have thrown things off as well.
And monitor how much water she is drinking. Does she drink a lot of water after meals? When does she drink the most water? Is she drinking a ton of water or eating a lot of wet food? Someone above raised the possibility of a medical issue - you'll want to know this info to share with the vet.
posted by Red Desk at 11:31 PM on November 9, 2020
She's adorable and I think her name is Maggie. Short for Margot.
If she's just had her first season and her urinary habits have changed, I'd definitely get her checked for a urinary tract infection as soon as you can. Also, if she's drinking more water than usual that could be a sign that something's amiss. Is a vet trip possible with covid restrictions?
As for the balcony, if it were me I would set up a potty station for her in her preferred spot. It's convenient to everyone and no risk of covid. In the US there are companies that will actually deliver fresh grass mats to you, but she'd probably do just as well with pee pads. Just make sure it's distinguishable as a particular "place" (like, the pee pad rests in a shallow blue box that's unlike anything else around your place) so that she is less likely to generalize the "pee on the flat thing" behavior to newspapers left on the floor or the like. Having it be a particular "place" will allow you more easily to transition to removing it after covid. When she uses her new box on cue give her a really good treat so she can learn that she should go there and not the living room.
One more thought-- sometimes a regression in behavior happens because the dog is stressed. If she's only been with you a few weeks after being moved around and living rough, she might not have had time to really relax. It can take weeks for a dog to recover from a period of prolonged stress (same as us). There might be sounds or scents associated with your apartment that she doesn't understand or isn't used to yet. She might be picking up on your stress about covid/work/whatever. It's a lot of change to live through and she may not yet understand that she's finally in "her" place.
Whatever is going on with her medically or mentally, punishing training accidents can only confuse her and hurt the progress you're making together. Given all the trouble with covid and the restrictions of where you're living, it might be best to just direct traffic the way it's already going for a while and give her an easy-to-clean bathroom on the balcony. And get her urine checked; a lot of bitches get UTIs during their heat.
posted by ruddlehead at 5:46 AM on November 10, 2020
If she's just had her first season and her urinary habits have changed, I'd definitely get her checked for a urinary tract infection as soon as you can. Also, if she's drinking more water than usual that could be a sign that something's amiss. Is a vet trip possible with covid restrictions?
As for the balcony, if it were me I would set up a potty station for her in her preferred spot. It's convenient to everyone and no risk of covid. In the US there are companies that will actually deliver fresh grass mats to you, but she'd probably do just as well with pee pads. Just make sure it's distinguishable as a particular "place" (like, the pee pad rests in a shallow blue box that's unlike anything else around your place) so that she is less likely to generalize the "pee on the flat thing" behavior to newspapers left on the floor or the like. Having it be a particular "place" will allow you more easily to transition to removing it after covid. When she uses her new box on cue give her a really good treat so she can learn that she should go there and not the living room.
One more thought-- sometimes a regression in behavior happens because the dog is stressed. If she's only been with you a few weeks after being moved around and living rough, she might not have had time to really relax. It can take weeks for a dog to recover from a period of prolonged stress (same as us). There might be sounds or scents associated with your apartment that she doesn't understand or isn't used to yet. She might be picking up on your stress about covid/work/whatever. It's a lot of change to live through and she may not yet understand that she's finally in "her" place.
Whatever is going on with her medically or mentally, punishing training accidents can only confuse her and hurt the progress you're making together. Given all the trouble with covid and the restrictions of where you're living, it might be best to just direct traffic the way it's already going for a while and give her an easy-to-clean bathroom on the balcony. And get her urine checked; a lot of bitches get UTIs during their heat.
posted by ruddlehead at 5:46 AM on November 10, 2020
If you're not able to interrupt at all (have you tried lifting before the pee stream starts and carrying her all the way outside?) then I would just prevent her from walking on the balcony, especially since this is a foster scenario. Maybe you could carry her there to get a bit of fresh air sometimes but otherwise why put both of you through that stress when her forever home may not even have a balcony? Or if they do, they may very well want her to pee on the balcony in a dedicated grass pad or whatever, so all your effort training now would actually be counterproductive.
She may also not be comfortable holding her pee that long, even if she's physically able to put up with the discomfort. It doesn't need to be an actual walk every time but try taking her out for a 5 minute pee break every 2 hours for a week or two and see if that makes the problem go away. My dog pees more than 3-4 times a day and I think a lot of dogs would prefer to go more often if given the chance.
posted by randomnity at 8:24 AM on November 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
She may also not be comfortable holding her pee that long, even if she's physically able to put up with the discomfort. It doesn't need to be an actual walk every time but try taking her out for a 5 minute pee break every 2 hours for a week or two and see if that makes the problem go away. My dog pees more than 3-4 times a day and I think a lot of dogs would prefer to go more often if given the chance.
posted by randomnity at 8:24 AM on November 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
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It may be hard for her to understand this at first. The balcony probably seems like the outside to her.
I wouldn't punish her for this though. If you catch her doing it, just stop her, and bring her outside to a spot where she should pee, but time out isn't a punishment I would use for a dog who had an accident.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:17 AM on November 9, 2020 [4 favorites]